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Old 2008-02-03, 20:57   Link #1021
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
Now I'm the one being misunderstood. The grades aren't of course an indication of limit. They are an indication of the quality within the limit of a Claymore's powers.
I see.

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I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything. What is proposed by the idea is that under the right circumstances, Jean's strength is equal to or stronger than Raphaela or Ophelia. That is the plain and ultimate conclusion one is led to by that idea, and this simply can't be true.
Ah, but here is were we diverge. While Jean's strength is lower then Ophelia/Raphaela's in almost all situations, Jean's Drillsword is her special circumstance, so her strength surpasses their's ONLY when using this technique.

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Now I may not have been clear on the correlation between Jean's strength and her DrillSword. I do not propose that Jean's strength is measured by her DrillSword so that they're interchangeable, hence the strength of DrillSword is at most B.
Exactly, their not interchangeable, but Jean's "B" is an indication of her baseline state, while the + indicates the Drillsword (special circumstance.) So when she uses the drillsword, she theoretically surpasses her baseline of "B." By how much is unknown, but probably by alot judging by Dauf's state.

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The nature of DrillSword as an attack is a high velocity one that involves drilling the sword. That is why it can pierce Daph's armor. What I propose is that it is under the condition of doing DrillSword that Jean's strength is enhanced or elevated to B. DrillSword is a powerful attack because at a strength level of B the sword is being drilled at a high velocity rotation.
The main problem is that the High-velocity Flash-sword of Clare (With Irene's arm) and the Yoki-enhanced Strength of Galatea (also a B+) could not hope to pierce Dauf's armor in the way that Jean's attack did.

Jean's Yoki obviously gave her a HUGE boost in strength, because she was able to actually pierce Dauf's armor enough to hurt him, but no utterly devastate him like Jean's attack did.

So at this point Galatea probably around an an "A" in strength.

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I am of the suspicion that warriors who rank A in strength (plus Priscilla ) can generate enough power to pierce or cut through Daph's armor, and there have been only a handful of Claymores who have had an A ranking in strength.
The problem here is, we have no way of knowing this, although I believe anyone with a "+" in their strength can potentially pierce Dauf's armor (with various degrees of success) its hard to tell if someone with an A in strength would have only been able to do what Galatea did, and wound Dauf, but not utterly rock him like Jean's attack did.

Other ABs appear to have an impossibly hard time injuring Dauf, and they normally have much higher strength then a Claymore. (Exceptions being obvious.)

Another thing worthy of note is that Galatea could knock Miata around, despite Miata having superior strength, (as made incredibly obvious by the latest chapter, where the weakened Miata almost pulled an Awakened #2's body around.) when she used her Yoki, her special circumstance (alot easier to reach then Jean's) , so theoretically her strength spikes above Miata's in those situations. (although Miata could very well have a A+ in strength)
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:00   Link #1022
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No, it's not just high speed + average strength. Galatea specifically says it's the thrust with both the highest speed and the greatest power. That means that neither Raphaela nor Ophelia nor anyone else can put as much power behind a thrust, no matter how unbelievable that seems to you.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:02   Link #1023
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
No, that's my argument. Your argument would be saying that Jean is still stronger than they, because on average she is B, but under certain conditions, she is A or who knows how much higher. Can you actually believe she is stronger than Raphaela or Ophelia?
Ok i'll try to repharse it Jean is always Strength B thats her base the Drillsword doesn't increase her base Strength it makes more effective use of the strength she has basicly boosting her for that one attack above everyone else.

Also the way she coiled her arm stores alot of energy which would when released boosts her strength the drillsword is probably the most powerful and devastating attack seen in claymore so far.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:04   Link #1024
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Geez, you've obviously not seen Gurren-Lagann. Drilling can pierce anything, even towards the heavens. That's why Jean's attack was more desirable than either Clare's or Galatea's. But I'm willing to bet that had it been Teresa, Priscilla, Raphaela, Sophia, Ophelia or either Twin were to face Daph, that armor may as well be butter. I don't recall whether it has been established that Maita was stronger than Galatea. At least Galatea scoffed at the idea.

Maybe it would help to define what was meant by power. If we talk about the product of mass x acceleration, then Jean's B level strength x her acceleration x the rotation of her sword is the power of her attack. If it isn't that, then you'll have to tell me cuz I really don't know. All that someone like Ophelia or Raphaela would need is to increase the mass and or the acceleration to a comparable level, though that rotation is gonna be hard to beat. I think the Rippling Sword can do it.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:09   Link #1025
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She admitted that Miata was AT LEAST stronger then her Yoki-wise, she was not so sure about anything else (but she probably could tell that Miata was not right in the head.)

And yes, I have seen Gurren Lagann, but they had a whole lot of Spiral power behind their attacks, so planetshattering attacks aside, that has nothing to do with this. :P

If Raphaela or Ophelia used alot of Yoki, probably, but not to the same degree Jean does.

The rest of the people you listed have a + in their strength, cept for Teresa, who most people agree that the Org probably didn't know exactly what she was capable of.

Also note that even with Irene's B in strength, Clare's Flash-sword (which is slower, but probably still as strong) was completely unable to pierce his skin. (thus negating the theory that B strength is enough to pierce his armor, same with Galatea for that matter, until she used Yoki.)
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:13   Link #1026
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
Geez, you've obviously not seen Gurren-Lagann. Drilling can pierce anything, even towards the heavens. That's why Jean's attack was more desirable than either Clare's or Galatea's. But I'm willing to bet that had it been Teresa, Priscilla, Raphaela, Sophia, Ophelia or either Twin were to face Daph, that armor may as well be butter. I don't recall whether it has been established that Maita was stronger than Galatea. At least Galatea scoffed at the idea.
They may have been able to penerate his armor but I doubt any off them could do as much damage in one attack.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:18   Link #1027
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No way. For instance, Teresa wouldn't even have needed to thrust. She'd just twist it off. Like on pg 26 of ES1. Now THAT is strength!
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:20   Link #1028
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
No way. For instance, Teresa wouldn't even have needed to thrust. She'd just twist it off. Like on pg 26 of ES1. Now THAT is strength!
Teresa wasn't one of the active Claymores when Galatea said that.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:21   Link #1029
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That's right. No one she met had an A grade in strength at the time she said that, including herself.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:23   Link #1030
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That's right. No one she met had an A grade in strength at the time she said that, including herself.
I'm willing to bet she knew Undine and Ophelia, and Galatea seemed rather educated about her fellow warriors herself, the obvious exception being the Twins and Raphaela.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:26   Link #1031
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No, I've already addressed that at the time she made her comment about Jean, she had not met the twins, probably had never met Raphaela either, and Ophelia was dead, and Undine doesn't count. She wasn't strong, she was releasing yoki to distort her body and artificially make her stronger than she normally would be.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:27   Link #1032
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
I'm willing to bet she knew Undine and Ophelia, and Galatea seemed rather educated about her fellow warriors herself, the obvious exception being the Twins and Raphaela.
Galatea even knew about Raphaela she said something about her hanging around to kill anybody running from the fighting in the north just before she met the twins.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:32   Link #1033
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No, I've already addressed that at the time she made her comment about Jean, she had not met the twins, probably had never met Raphaela either, and Ophelia was dead, and Undine doesn't count. She wasn't strong, she was releasing yoki to distort her body and artificially make her stronger than she normally would be.
Galatea was well informed enough to know about Jean's attack in the first place, and an A in strength is not at all rare, half the people we have stats on have one. It's ludicrous to assume that Galatea thought no one would be strong enough to have an A.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:34   Link #1034
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Sure. She also knew about the existence of Alicia and Beth. That knowledge is no indicator that they've met. I doubt Galatea knows that Raphaela having the power of a number one is stronger than her, as it's not even apparent that the resident snoop Miria even knows of Raphaela's origins. With Raphaela used mainly for covert ops, it's also not likely that they've worked together. All anybody would know about Raphaela is that she's number 5 and she's good at sneaking up on people.

I think that my misstatement is being taken literally. Let me rephrase. That's right. No one of the 47 she had compared Jean to had been people she had met who had the strength needed to deal with Daph. The reason is that 1) she had never met the twins, 2) Ophelia is dead, and 3) she is likely unaware of Raphaela's origins and that she has the power of a number one. So she gives Jean that complement based on information that is incomplete.

Half the people we have stats on whose strength is A are not half the people whom Galatea knows is around. There was just Jean she could count on at the time for the reasons I've stated above.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:35   Link #1035
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
No, I've already addressed that at the time she made her comment about Jean, she had not met the twins, probably had never met Raphaela either, and Ophelia was dead, and Undine doesn't count. She wasn't strong, she was releasing yoki to distort her body and artificially make her stronger than she normally would be.
As the above poster stated, and I had completely forgotten, Galatea apparently knew about Raphaela. I don't think that she would simply go "Oh Ophelia's dead btw, so you have the strongest attack among us Claymores now." It's obvious that Ophelia (even supercharged by Yoki) was unable to break free from an AB weaker then Dauf, and yet Jean is able to blow right through Dauf with a single attack. There should be an obvious difference in power here.

Even if your statement is true about Undine, her strength was still ranked at an A, which means her strength should have been greater then Jean's even with the Drill-sword if your theory was correct.
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Old 2008-02-03, 21:41   Link #1036
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Sure. She also knew about the existence of Alicia and Beth. That knowledge is no indicator that they've met. I doubt Galatea knows that Raphaela having the power of a number one is stronger than her, as it's not even apparent that the resident snoop Miria even knows of Raphaela's origins. With Raphaela used mainly for covert ops, it's also not likely that they've worked together. All anybody would know about Raphaela is that she's number 5 and she's good at sneaking up on people.
Galatea been the eye for the ORG at the time has more than likely worked with or at least sensed more claymores than anybody else and who else would be better at working with Raphaela at tracking claymores down.

Also all the top claymores from Teresa's generation apart from Priscilla who was a newbie seemed to know each over fairly well and the new generation seems to be the same so I don't see why Clare's generation would be any diffrent apart from maybe the twins and Raphaela.

Last edited by Newhope; 2008-02-03 at 21:53.
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Old 2008-02-03, 22:00   Link #1037
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As the above poster stated, and I had completely forgotten, Galatea apparently knew about Raphaela. I don't think that she would simply go "Oh Ophelia's dead btw, so you have the strongest attack among us Claymores now." It's obvious that Ophelia (even supercharged by Yoki) was unable to break free from an AB weaker then Dauf, and yet Jean is able to blow right through Dauf with a single attack. There should be an obvious difference in power here.

Even if your statement is true about Undine, her strength was still ranked at an A, which means her strength should have been greater then Jean's even with the Drill-sword if your theory was correct.
Again, what do we know that Galatea did know about Raphaela other than she stuck around to kill deserters? She knew of Raphaela's function, which is no secret. But the org seems to have erased from the books Raphaela's origins, which appears to be kept secret. If that is so, how would she know that Raphaela, a number 5, can kick her ass, a number 3?

If Jean was being held or pinned down like Ophelia was, then neither would Jean be able to blow through Dauf with her single attack. What is obvious is that drilling can pierce more effectively than a straight out stab. There's the difference in power.

Undine's strength would be greater than Jean's. But Jean's DrillSword would still be more powerful than Undine's attack due to the nature of DrillSword's high velocity. While they correlate, there's a separation and distinction between the "strength" of Jean's physical body and the power of the attack known as DrillSword to which that strength is applied.

Last edited by khryoleoz; 2008-02-03 at 22:11.
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Old 2008-02-03, 22:06   Link #1038
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Half the people we have stats on whose strength is A are not half the people whom Galatea knows is around. There was just Jean she could count on at the time for the reasons I've stated above.
As has been said Undine was around and the source of the strength shouldn't matter. We don't have any stats on Eva (#7) or #10 and #12 and they were high enough that they are bound to have at least one A (#7) or very likely to. Also, if you don't count Ophelia what about her replacement? 4 people and at least one of them should have an A in strength at the rate we have been observing.
Even accepting your argument the odds that none of the three she supposedly knew nothing about had an A in strength had to be vanishingly low and assuming so would have been uncharacteristically foolish.
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Old 2008-02-03, 22:12   Link #1039
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But thats the thing, Jean's drill sword is considered to be attributed directly to her strength, not her agility, thus the reason her Strength has a B "+."

The attack-power of Jean's drill directly relies on her own innate strength, thus the reason her normal strength of B (above average) has a +.

Jean's drill sword is also the highest thing on the strength/agility chart in the Data book on the strength side, with Sophia trailing behind, now THAT is power.

I honestly don't think Ophelia would be able to easily deal with Dauf, Dauf's armor is incrediably powerful, I don't think we have met an AB short of the Abyssal Ones in his league as far as toughness goes.

That was what was so shocking about him in his first appearance, even the Yoki-ampliphied Flash-Sword, with Irene's arm, which annilated Ophelia, couldn't do more then scratch him.

He fricken caught Clare's sword with his eye-lid.


As far what techniques are linked to what.

Strength:
Jean's Drill Sword
Helen's Rubber Arms
Galatea's higher-then-average Yoki-enchanced strength

Agility:
Flash-Sword
Windcutter
Miria's Phantom

Sense:
Pre-emptive Yoki-perception
Yoki Manipulation
Soul-Link


Notice that most of these people have either an insanely high rank in their relative attribute, or have a "+" to indicate that their power is above what their average stat would allow.

Edit: Wow i'm dumb, Helen has a B in strength BTW, I have been selling her short on a C+.
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Old 2008-02-03, 22:20   Link #1040
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I would disagree with you on the likelihood of 7, 10, and 12 having A grade strength. Undine had special, or rather artificial circumstances that raised her strength level. How likely would it be that any of those three would have had similar or comparable circumstances raising their strength? No, it looks like the A grade people held ranks 5 and up, sans Galatea.

First, Galatea was offering comments about the strength of Jean's particular attack. I may be wrong and if I am I'll be happy to adjust my thinking, but I think that the stats measure the bodily strength of a Claymore, which of course manifests in attacks that are correspondingly strong to greater or lesser degrees.

Think about this. If Galatea was being inclusive of the entire group of 47 Claymores when she offered comments about Jean, then she would have to include Alicia and Beth whom she does know about even though they've never met and even if nothing more than they're number 1 and 2. Now, how reasonable is it that the conditional, circumstantial strength of a number 9 is stronger than the attack of a number 1?
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