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Old 2007-10-18, 18:46   Link #101
Sassarai
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Join Date: Apr 2007
I dunno but a sneak attack from behind from the back at 0 percent yoki release is different from a sneak + trick attack from the front at 80-90ish? percent yoki release?


lol besides have you ever even watched saint seiya? They only have 1 or 2 move and they just keep doing it over and over till it works. Only difference in their attack is how much they burn their comos. What generosity? lol if youre talking about what you said about not getting me caught up in the arguement or not then dont worry about it cuz like I said I just state my points and I pretty much stop at some point when it repeats itself. Like how gooral said he'll stop the teresa vs prissy debate except I dont take as long to stop lol.

Last edited by Sassarai; 2007-10-18 at 19:15.
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Old 2007-10-18, 19:45   Link #102
Fate_Archer
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Think this will be the last data book for a while.
Yeah, but yet, there are more characters to be evaluated.
The list of relevant and remaining characters would be:

Riful, Easley, Rigardo and Luciela for awakened beings.

Tabitha, Cynthia, Yuma, Claris, Nina, Audrey, Rachel and Miata for Claymores.

Correct me if I'm missing someone or something.

Quote:
Up to a certain point, but strength, speed, agility, yoki, are all affected by the partial awakening, as we have seen with Deneve, and Helen; partially-awakening affects there physical abilities as well.
True, so far we have seen.

Quote:
Clare did not start to advance in any of her physical areas till after she partially awakened, so we can assume that she had hit her limit in that department.
Not exactly.
In the seven years of the time skip, she learned Flora's technique, which doesn't rely on yoki, unlike her quick sword.
This probably indicate an upgrade in her normal strength.

Quote:
Not to mention Yoki is probably the most important stat of all, because it increases all other physical stats when used.
Yes, but all the traits are important as well.
Mental and Leadership, are not related to yoki, but can really make the difference in lots of situations

Quote:
Considering the experience gap between that AB and Galatea, I am being pretty generous in saying that Galatea was about as skilled as he was, but he was able to manipulate multiple Claymores at once as well, something we are not sure if Galatea is capable of.
Maybe, but multiple targets aren't really the problem, she could change the target of more than a dozen of poles at the same time.
And that guy is an awakened being, in terms of manipulation, he has (or should have) the advantage.
Aside from that, he was an unknown number of a male generation of Claymores and as stated by Easley, an expendable one.
While Galatea is the #3 of seventh-eighth generation, and could (arguably) defeat Duff, who was the number #3 of the first male generation.
I still think she owns him.

------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
The question I would ask is how substantial the differences are between that A and A+. If it's a small degree and if it is true that it is that single attribute in which Teresa's quality is S class that gives her the edge, then it is on that level that she bests the twins.
The "+" indicates a level of proficiency above the average.
"S" is a special level of ability.
(That's what was written in a translated version I saw)

And "EX", probably means Extreme level or something like it.
(personal speculation)

Quote:
I've followed your reasoning up to this point. We seem to agree that awakening is the END of yoki release, so having awakened, ABs are fixed at that power level. They can supress it if they choose but in terms of their raw power the AOs can't hope to become better than Priscilla. What Alicia does is "awaken". So she is at her full potential in that state. Soul-linking w/Beth only allows the preservation of her human consciousness and the return to the "unawakened" state. So other than becoming more competent at "awakening" and "sleeping", I can't see how repeating this process will make her stronger over time.
Because, technically, Alicia and Beth* are partially or half awakened.

A partially awakened Claymores is a Claymore who crossed the limit line where all the mixed sensations of pleasure, ecstasy, pain and suffering, along with all the yoki released were going to carry her to become an AB, but somehow, she managed to stop all this process and get back.
The same thing happens with the twins, the difference is that they go to the very end, and fully awaken (releasing all their yoki and potential at that moment), and then, after that, they come back with the support of the non-awakened twin.

And after going back, like any partially awakened Claymore, they get stronger in most of their traits.
So, next time they were going to awake, they would be even more powerful awakened beings. (as stated by Riful)

Nearly unlimited powers are possible, in this theory.
But it is all a theory, and it could be just wrong. Mangakas know how to break our legs when we are happy.
I'm just making the interpretation of the facts stated and calculating the possibilities.

But every time I think about these twins, I don't know if they should be considered Claymores or really awakened beings.

It's a tenuous line that separate a Claymore from an awakened being, I guess.

* Beth is included, her stats are indentical to Alicia, this is a strong hint, I guess.
And while Rubel was talking with Galatea about the twins, he said that as long as there is one twin to support the other, it's possible to maintain the consciousness and even get back.
This implies that their position could be changed, and Beth could awaken too.
And it makes much sense if we think in the possibility of Alicia somehow getting seriously injured.
She could at least focus while Beth is in her awakened form.

Last edited by Fate_Archer; 2007-10-18 at 21:23. Reason: adding a few things
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Old 2007-10-18, 20:03   Link #103
Tempest35
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Ah! Those be FIGHTIN' WORDS right there!! Wanna go at it, wanna-be #4 ranked Male Claymore!? XDD

...for some odd reason, the image of Ash's Pikachu and Clare overlapped in my head. *eyes the Coke warily* Before I am written off as being crazy, let me elaborate a bit... If you watched the first seasons of Pokemon, (...and I know most of you all did!) You should remember the Pikachu vs Raichu battle and the subject of 'forcing' Pikachu to evolve into a Raichu to continue fighting. Several interesting bits showed up while thinking of the Partially Awakened bit and the terms of the power jump from Claymore to Awakened.

While the Raichu was overwhelmingly stronger in terms of voltage and physical strength, it lacked a lot of other attacks that it could only gain as a Pikachu because it was forced to evolve rather quickly. So while Raichu was stronger, Pikachu had learned all its capabilities including its quick attacks that allowed it to overwhelm Raichu at the end. (What good is hitting power when you can't make contact?)
And as those who watched Pokemon would know, Ash's Pikachu was crazy strong - taking out opponents that normally would have no buisness losing to an electrical rodent. Now if that Pikachu would FINALLY evolve into a Raichu...scary world.

Now, put Clare in Pikachu's place...XD *finishes off Coke* ... something was weird about this one after all...
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Old 2007-10-18, 21:25   Link #104
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate_Archer View Post
Yeah, but yet, there are more characters to be evaluated.
The list of relevant and remaining characters would be:

Riful, Easley, Rigardo and Luciela for awakened beings.

Tabitha, Cynthia, Yuma, Claris, Nina, Audrey, Rachel and Miata for Claymores.

Correct me if I'm missing someone or something.
Yeah, I know there is a large amount of characters that do not have their stats revealed yet, but I am just saying they are probably gonna wait till this arc is over to release them.


Quote:
True, so far we have seen.
"Nod"

Quote:
Not exactly.
In the seven years of the time skip, she learned Flora's technique, which doesn't rely on yoki, unlike her quick sword.
This probably indicate an upgrade in her normal strength.
She did so with Irene's arm, a arm that is quite probably capable of performing Flora's Windcutter better then Flora could. Clare brought out the latent "potential" of Irene's arm to use the Windcutter.


Quote:
Yes, but all the traits are important as well.
Mental and Leadership, are not related to yoki, but can really make the difference in lots of situations
I agree, although I think mental is vitally important to the practicality of Yoki use.


Quote:
Maybe, but multiple targets aren't really the problem, she could change the target of more than a dozen of poles at the same time.
But was she changing their trajectory or Dauf's aim?

Quote:
And that guy is an awakened being, in terms of manipulation, he has (or should have) the advantage.
As I said, I was being generous to Galatea.

Quote:
Aside from that, he was an unknown number of a male generation of Claymores and as stated by Easley, an expendable one.
While Galatea is the #3 of seventh-eighth generation, and could (arguably) defeat Duff, who was the number #3 of the first male generation.
I still think she owns him.
She is certainly superior to Dauf in the mental department, but he really only got boned because of our Partially-awakened girls, Riful's advice certainly helped him, but I think Jean/Clare combo helped Galatea more. :P


Quote:
Because, technically, Alicia and Beth* are partially or half awakened.

A partially awakened Claymores is a Claymore who crossed the limit line where all the mixed sensations of pleasure, ecstasy, pain and suffering, along with all the yoki released were going to carry her to become an AB, but somehow, she managed to stop all this process and get back.
The same thing happens with the twins, the difference is that they go to the very end, and fully awaken (releasing all their yoki and potential), and then, after that, they come back with the support of the non-awakened twin.

And after going back, like any partially awakened Claymore, they get stronger in most of their traits.
So, next time they were going to awake, they would be even more powerful awakened beings. (as stated by Riful)

Nearly unlimited powers are possible, in this theory.
But it is all a theory, and it could be just wrong. Mangakas know how to break our legs when we are happy.
I'm just making the interpretation of the facts stated and calculating the possibilities.
True enough, I do think Partially-awakening has a limit to its power increase, but we have yet to see it. We just might with Alicia and Beth.

Quote:
But every time I think about these twins, I don't know if they should be considered Claymores or really awakened beings.
I consider them exactly what the Organization apparently considers them "Unique."

Quote:
It's a tenuous line that separate a Claymore from an awakened being, I guess.
Especially with partially-awakened running around.

Quote:
* Beth is included, her stats are indentical to Alicia, this is a strong hint, I guess.
And while Rubel was talking with Galatea about the twins, he said that as long as there is one twin to support the other, it's possible to maintain the consciousness and even get back.
This implies that their position could be changed, and Beth could awaken too.
And it makes much sense if we think in the possibility of Alicia somehow getting seriously injured.
She could at least focus while Beth is in her awakened form.
It would not surprise me if the Organization had a fall-back plan like that.


Quote:
Ah! Those be FIGHTIN' WORDS right there!! Wanna go at it, wanna-be #4 ranked Male Claymore!? XDD
Bring it on! and do not taunt me with that, you had the same idea!

Quote:
...for some odd reason, the image of Ash's Pikachu and Clare overlapped in my head. *eyes the Coke warily* Before I am written off as being crazy, let me elaborate a bit... If you watched the first seasons of Pokemon, (...and I know most of you all did!) You should remember the Pikachu vs Raichu battle and the subject of 'forcing' Pikachu to evolve into a Raichu to continue fighting. Several interesting bits showed up while thinking of the Partially Awakened bit and the terms of the power jump from Claymore to Awakened.

While the Raichu was overwhelmingly stronger in terms of voltage and physical strength, it lacked a lot of other attacks that it could only gain as a Pikachu because it was forced to evolve rather quickly. So while Raichu was stronger, Pikachu had learned all its capabilities including its quick attacks that allowed it to overwhelm Raichu at the end. (What good is hitting power when you can't make contact?)
And as those who watched Pokemon would know, Ash's Pikachu was crazy strong - taking out opponents that normally would have no buisness losing to an electrical rodent. Now if that Pikachu would FINALLY evolve into a Raichu...scary world.

Now, put Clare in Pikachu's place...XD *finishes off Coke* ... something was weird about this one after all...
That my friend is ALOT of coke, but it makes a strange sort of sense, in a scary way.

---------

Quote:
I dunno but a sneak attack from behind from the back at 0 percent yoki release is different from a sneak + trick attack from the front at 80-90ish? percent yoki release?
One is a full blown stealth attack, while the other one is simply a surprise-attack.

Quote:
lol besides have you ever even watched saint seiya? They only have 1 or 2 move and they just keep doing it over and over till it works. Only difference in their attack is how much they burn their comos. What generosity? lol if youre talking about what you said about not getting me caught up in the arguement or not then dont worry about it cuz like I said I just state my points and I pretty much stop at some point when it repeats itself. Like how gooral said he'll stop the teresa vs prissy debate except I dont take as long to stop lol.
Afraid I have not watched that show, and you are wise to state your opinion and go, some of us just like to argue.
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Old 2007-10-18, 22:55   Link #105
Tempest35
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You write too much... 0.o ... *points* You have not let the siren song of fanfiction fade from your mind have you!?
As for me...*wearing headphones* Yes, Pikachu's very scary... I was thinking about comparing them to Bleach characters but... yeah right.
*throws last Coke out* ... tomorrow night ... back to root beer.

For Duph vs Galatea...it's a pretty even fight all things considered. Both are/were ranked #3's, and while one specializies in offensive power and defensive toughness, the other specializes in mental aplitude, mind games, and a cool head. But overall, Duph IS an Awakened one so in the end, he'll come out on top - it's the way it goes. One-on-one, there's no way Galatea could win.

Now, make it Duph vs Galatea/Ophelia or Rafalea or probably even Miria - Duph's ass is grass. You need at least two people to tackle Duph head-on - he's very good when he's focused on an enemy but usually it's only one at a time - that's his real weakness.

Irene's arm is just naturally stronger (amputated elf limbs have +5 dex) so in all likelyhood, Clare's Windcutter is stronger than Flora's at this point. Comparing a #2 to a #8 is just not fair - I mean, look how badly Irene messed up #4 Ophelia inside a few seconds.
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Old 2007-10-18, 23:04   Link #106
azurie
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lol i like that amputated elf limbs +5 dex ROFL that's rich lol so what would increase int?? or wis? hmmm LOL
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Old 2007-10-18, 23:14   Link #107
khryoleoz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Stupid how? She cannot really do anything to cover her tracks, and her excuse was flimsy at best. What is she going to do? Hide the body? It is not like they could not find the remains and (easily) guess what happened.

and I do like Teresa, what I do not like is blind Teresa fanboyism, so I must toughen my skin and argue the reaper as it were.
There you go again characterizing her as stupid by painting her actions as half-baked and her response belonging to a dim-wit. [I'm actually acting more offended than I really am. I'm just going with the flow.] What she did was dodge the issue with something that is plausible. It's not as if she had conducted her affairs in such a way that would have aroused the Org's suspicion about her activities. So a simple, plausible explanation was all that was necessary under those circumstances. Also, she shred Rosemary to bits from what I can remember. So even if they suspected Rosemary to have awakened, there'd be little to identify her and only chunks of yoma flesh would be found, lending more credence to her yoma claim than Rosemary's awakening. It's not as if the Org has a forensic investigative team as the one in Las Vegas where an average of 2 people are killed in a homocide a week except during the summer.

Quote:
You can say what you like, but Teresa will always be one of my favorite characters, her arc is what made me love Claymore.
In addition to characterizing Teresa as stupid, you've also characterized the loyalty such as that which I hold as blind fanboyism. I will admit to seeing Claymore through a certain prism in which Teresa shines brightest. But these lenses are something that I don and I can take them on and off at will. Look, I'm not saying they had no clue about the fact that she was stronger than anyone of her generation, only that how much stronger seems veiled enough so that they've made a significant miscalculation about how to deal with her...this based on how their plan to eliminate her went down.





Quote:
True we cannot just assume that she never did, but we cannot ignore it as a possibility either, otherwise Teresa would have never gotten away with hiding her power either.
It isn't impossible but it isn't likely that Priscilla's brief career as a warrior never involved the release of yoki. How then would the org have measured her as fit to take the position of number 2?



Quote:
Teresa herself admitted that Priscilla could have gotten her, so I think I will stick with what Teresa said.
I can still wiggle my way out of this one. Teresa herself is imperfect in her judgement. But it's part of what makes her so fascinating and curious, how she offered no resistance to rapists, how she spared the life of "that thing" which posed the greatest threat to her, how with her level-headedness she indulged in a moment of passion that would mark her demise... Anyway, Priscilla might have crept up on her but she still saw her when no longer distracted by others. Let me quote this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
I dunno but a sneak attack from behind from the back at 0 percent yoki release is different from a sneak + trick attack from the front at 80-90ish? percent yoki release?



Quote:
The problem is, we do not really know what lies in actually being a hybrid. Is the reason some are weak and others are strong because of compatibility, if training is all one requires, then why aren't all Claymores stronger then they are right now?
While I wouldn't pass this on as knowledge, it's pretty easy to figure out that it's the quality of Yoma material that makes the difference. Warriors can no more hope to become stronger than they are at the point of awakening because of the limitations of that yoma material. Training would improve the ability to tap into the power behind that material. For now I see that the ABs are hybrids that release the fullness of that material. So yoki emission would be an incremental release towards that fullness. There is a point where too much emission would lead to an unstoppable flow, except for the one freak phenomenon where it IS stopped and reversed, raising the threshold at THAT new emission level. By being able to release yoki at a higher threshold, naturally the warrior's abilities are improved. Yagi might prove me wrong in the future, but that time is not now.

Last edited by khryoleoz; 2007-10-19 at 01:41.
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Old 2007-10-19, 00:48   Link #108
emu777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azurie View Post
lol i like that amputated elf limbs +5 dex ROFL that's rich lol so what would increase int?? or wis? hmmm LOL
Thats easy, you need one kappa shell, the turtle AB from the Pieta arc should carry it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
You write too much... 0.o ... *points* You have not let the siren song of fanfiction fade from your mind have you!?
As for me...*wearing headphones* Yes, Pikachu's very scary... I was thinking about comparing them to Bleach characters but... yeah right.
*throws last Coke out* ... tomorrow night ... back to root beer.

For Duph vs Galatea...it's a pretty even fight all things considered. Both are/were ranked #3's, and while one specializies in offensive power and defensive toughness, the other specializes in mental aplitude, mind games, and a cool head. But overall, Duph IS an Awakened one so in the end, he'll come out on top - it's the way it goes. One-on-one, there's no way Galatea could win.

Now, make it Duph vs Galatea/Ophelia or Rafalea or probably even Miria - Duph's ass is grass. You need at least two people to tackle Duph head-on - he's very good when he's focused on an enemy but usually it's only one at a time - that's his real weakness.

Irene's arm is just naturally stronger (amputated elf limbs have +5 dex) so in all likelyhood, Clare's Windcutter is stronger than Flora's at this point. Comparing a #2 to a #8 is just not fair - I mean, look how badly Irene messed up #4 Ophelia inside a few seconds.
While I'am a big duff fan, I can't help but agree with you on the...assesment of his mental capabilites. If he possessed just a little more tactical intelligence...or even mental capabilites at all I'm sure he would be more well liked.

PS- Heres a tip, DON'T drink a Pepsi you find behind the fridge after 3 years thinking its still good(TRUST ME ON THIS!!!)...walls arent supposed to talk back to you.
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Old 2007-10-19, 07:44   Link #109
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
If she had awoken, that would be it, the end, her advancement would only come in the form of experience, not physical increases in power and Yoki.
Partial awakening increases only Claymore stats not awakened. So it doesn't matter if you awaken after 5 years or 10, the end result will be still the same. What's so great about partial awakening is that claymore's gain more power but their still themselves - humans.
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Old 2007-10-19, 08:01   Link #110
Flar
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Partial awakening increases only Claymore stats not awakened. So it doesn't matter if you awaken after 5 years or 10, the end result will be still the same.
Back to square one:

Until you awaken... become stronger! And then wake up, that way you will become even stronger awakened beings.
~Riful - chapter 49
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Old 2007-10-19, 08:20   Link #111
zhoutai753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Ah! Those be FIGHTIN' WORDS right there!! Wanna go at it, wanna-be #4 ranked Male Claymore!? XDD

...for some odd reason, the image of Ash's Pikachu and Clare overlapped in my head. *eyes the Coke warily* Before I am written off as being crazy, let me elaborate a bit... If you watched the first seasons of Pokemon, (...and I know most of you all did!) You should remember the Pikachu vs Raichu battle and the subject of 'forcing' Pikachu to evolve into a Raichu to continue fighting. Several interesting bits showed up while thinking of the Partially Awakened bit and the terms of the power jump from Claymore to Awakened.

While the Raichu was overwhelmingly stronger in terms of voltage and physical strength, it lacked a lot of other attacks that it could only gain as a Pikachu because it was forced to evolve rather quickly. So while Raichu was stronger, Pikachu had learned all its capabilities including its quick attacks that allowed it to overwhelm Raichu at the end. (What good is hitting power when you can't make contact?)
And as those who watched Pokemon would know, Ash's Pikachu was crazy strong - taking out opponents that normally would have no buisness losing to an electrical rodent. Now if that Pikachu would FINALLY evolve into a Raichu...scary world.

Now, put Clare in Pikachu's place...XD *finishes off Coke* ... something was weird about this one after all...
nicely put
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Old 2007-10-19, 08:40   Link #112
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flar View Post
Back to square one:

Until you awaken... become stronger! And then wake up, that way you will become even stronger awakened beings.
~Riful - chapter 49
Unless Riful is some sort of a fortune-teller she couldn't know how would claymores change after full awakening. All we've seen was that claymores got stronger, whether their awakened form would be stronger isn't that obvious. We don't know if Alicia from the start fully awakened or was it partial and gradual awakening to let her
adapt and utilize new power.
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Old 2007-10-19, 08:44   Link #113
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
There you go again characterizing her as stupid by painting her actions as half-baked and her response belonging to a dim-wit. [I'm actually acting more offended than I really am. I'm just going with the flow.] What she did was dodge the issue with something that is plausible. It's not as if she had conducted her affairs in such a way that would have aroused the Org's suspicion about her activities. So a simple, plausible explanation was all that was necessary under those circumstances. Also, she shred Rosemary to bits from what I can remember. So even if they suspected Rosemary to have awakened, there'd be little to identify her and only chunks of yoma flesh would be found, lending more credence to her yoma claim than Rosemary's awakening. It's not as if the Org has a forensic investigative team as the one in Las Vegas where an average of 2 people are killed in a homocide a week except during the summer.
First of all, you did not answer my question, what was she supposed to do? Clare cut Ophelia into little pieces and dumped her human torso into a lake, yet the Organization found it and pieced together a pretty accurate theory. (Which Rubel scoffed at but had his own thoughts over)

You do not need a forensic team to tell that those Yoma parts belonged to an AB, consider the mass and quality difference, especially from a bunch of guys who work with Yoma flesh as part of there profession.

Teresa's excuse was incrediably flimsy, and both she and Orsay knew it, but Orsay did not care at the time, they had more work to do, but it was obvious from the look he gave Teresa that he did not believe one word of it.

Quote:
In addition to characterizing Teresa as stupid, you've also characterized the loyalty such as that which I hold as blind fanboyism. I will admit to seeing Claymore through a certain prism in which Teresa shines brightest. But these lenses are something that I don and I can take them on and off at will. Look, I'm not saying they had no clue about the fact that she was stronger than anyone of her generation, only that how much stronger seems veiled enough so that they've made a significant miscalculation about how to deal with her...this based on how their plan to eliminate her went down.
For the most part you arent bad enough to be considered a blind fanboy, but damn if you don't come close sometimes There plan to eliminate her failed, because a certain noob Claymore did not even follow the plan.


Quote:
It isn't impossible but it isn't likely that Priscilla's brief career as a warrior never involved the release of yoki. How then would the org have measured her as fit to take the position of number 2?
How could Irene immediatly tell that Priscilla was worthy of the #2 spot without being able to sense her Yoki? Because it was obvious that is why.


Quote:
I can still wiggle my way out of this one. Teresa herself is imperfect in her judgement. But it's part of what makes her so fascinating and curious, how she offered no resistance to rapists, how she spared the life of "that thing" which posed the greatest threat to her, how with her level-headedness she indulged in a moment of passion that would mark her demise... Anyway, Priscilla might have crept up on her but she still saw her when no longer distracted by others. Let me quote this.
You can wiggle, but no out of it. I never said that she was close to perfect, infact I often argue the opposite, and I love her flawed character in all its glory, but her expression of shock and later scolding of Priscilla's naivety are more then enough proof to show Priscilla borked up big time by not taking the free-shot.


Quote:
While I wouldn't pass this on as knowledge, it's pretty easy to figure out that it's the quality of Yoma material that makes the difference. Warriors can no more hope to become stronger than they are at the point of awakening because of the limitations of that yoma material. Training would improve the ability to tap into the power behind that material. For now I see that the ABs are hybrids that release the fullness of that material. So yoki emission would be an incremental release towards that fullness. There is a point where too much emission would lead to an unstoppable flow, except for the one freak phenomenon where it IS stopped and reversed, raising the threshold at THAT new emission level. By being able to release yoki at a higher threshold, naturally the warrior's abilities are improved. Yagi might prove me wrong in the future, but that time is not now.
If it was a matter of quality, then why was Clare so horrible before partially-awakening? Even 1/4 of Teresa's Yoma would have made her a monster, but she was not, she was an absolute failure as far as inheriting Teresa's strength.
The only answer can be compatibility, Clare was simply not as compatible with that Yoma as Teresa was. If it was only a matter of quality then the Organization would have tons of Priscilla and Teresa clones walking around.

What you just described with partially-awakening is exactly what I was talking about with partially-awakening.
It raises there power-threshold above the norm allowing them to become stronger then they would otherwise be.
-----------------------------------

Quote:
Partial awakening increases only Claymore stats not awakened. So it doesn't matter if you awaken after 5 years or 10, the end result will be still the same. What's so great about partial awakening is that claymore's gain more power but their still themselves - humans.
I think Flar answered this quite well. This entire arguement was started because of what Riful said.

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Unless Riful is some sort of a fortune-teller she couldn't know how would claymores change after full awakening. All we've seen was that claymores got stronger, whether their awakened form would be stronger isn't that obvious. We don't know if Alicia from the start fully awakened or was it partial and gradual awakening to let her
adapt and utilize new power.
Riful can sense Yoki, far better then people have been giving her credit for, she sensed Priscilla's power immediatly upon seeing her, when both Rigaldo and Isley misjudged it. She could probably tell how powerful they could become by reading there unusual Yoki.
As for Alicia, we know she was not able to fully awaken from the start, hence the training she had to go through after sensing Riful's power.
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Old 2007-10-19, 08:52   Link #114
zhoutai753
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Originally Posted by Tevourious View Post
All this talk of stats has me wanting to stat the ladies out via the RPG, Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition books. anyone else familiar with the system? I think the Claymore world would rock as a rpg setting
haha rpg my thoughts exactly
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Old 2007-10-19, 09:00   Link #115
Gooral
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Riful can sense Yoki, far better then people have been giving her credit for, she sensed Priscilla's power immediatly upon seeing her, when both Rigaldo and Isley misjudged it. She could probably tell how powerful they could become by reading there unusual Yoki.
Assuming that Priscilla didn't suppress her youki in either of these encounters (we don't know if Priscilla-Isley-time showed the same as Priscilla-Riful-time).
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As for Alicia, we know she was not able to fully awaken from the start, hence the training she had to go through after sensing Riful's power.
You're right, I forgot that it was clearly stated Alicia was increasing her power and speed gradually. I remembered though that Alicia commented herself that she could deliver Riful 50% damage and die so I thought that her training could be only focused on increasing time in which she could stay in awakened state. After all even fully awakened Alicia wouldn't be able to kill Riful in a split of a second (we saw how long went Isley vs Luciella battle) so after she went through her limit and returned back to claymore form she would be killed instantly - that was my reasoning.

Last edited by Gooral; 2007-10-19 at 09:15. Reason: You're right Fenrir
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Old 2007-10-19, 10:07   Link #116
khryoleoz
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
First of all, you did not answer my question, what was she supposed to do? Clare cut Ophelia into little pieces and dumped her human torso into a lake, yet the Organization found it and pieced together a pretty accurate theory. (Which Rubel scoffed at but had his own thoughts over)

You do not need a forensic team to tell that those Yoma parts belonged to an AB, consider the mass and quality difference, especially from a bunch of guys who work with Yoma flesh as part of there profession.

Teresa's excuse was incrediably flimsy, and both she and Orsay knew it, but Orsay did not care at the time, they had more work to do, but it was obvious from the look he gave Teresa that he did not believe one word of it.
Oh, I didn't answer it because I thought it was rhetorical. My point still is that her answer was plausible, and that's all it needed to be under the circumstances, that (presumably) she had never conducted herself in anyway that would arouse their suspicion before that they would bother to check up on her story.



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For the most part you arent bad enough to be considered a blind fanboy, but damn if you don't come close sometimes There plan to eliminate her failed, because a certain noob Claymore did not even follow the plan.
Doesn't matter. All Teresa admitted to was not detecting her presence initially, thus giving an opportunity for a sneak attack. That doesn't mean she was unguarded and would not have been able to react sufficiently against that sneak attack.




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How could Irene immediatly tell that Priscilla was worthy of the #2 spot without being able to sense her Yoki? Because it was obvious that is why.
But that's my point I think. She couldn't deceive the org about her power. Based upon her naivete, she would have no motive to either.



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If it was a matter of quality, then why was Clare so horrible before partially-awakening? Even 1/4 of Teresa's Yoma would have made her a monster, but she was not, she was an absolute failure as far as inheriting Teresa's strength.
The only answer can be compatibility, Clare was simply not as compatible with that Yoma as Teresa was. If it was only a matter of quality then the Organization would have tons of Priscilla and Teresa clones walking around.
That's an interesting factor I haven't considered. But my thoughts on Clare is that she has Teresa's full potential to tap into because of Teresa's yoma material. What makes it difficult to tap into it is because she is indeed a different hybrid being 3/4 human. But after her latest, more advanced semi-awakening, she has shown to be stronger as a semi-awakened than a fully-awakened number 2. Come on, man. There's got to be a lot going for that Yoma material.

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What you just described with partially-awakening is exactly what I was talking about with partially-awakening.
It raises there power-threshold above the norm allowing them to become stronger then they would otherwise be.
I didn't bring this up because I was arguing against a point you made about it. I was just completing my thought process. But I think where we might depart (I'm not really sure) is that some people think that that potential is limitless, when it's not. There's the full measure of power that one reaches by awakening, so it's finite. There's a threshold wherein if passed one cannot return, save for that semi-awakening phenomenon where the threshold is increased to wherever they happen to return from. But that extends only their threshold which consequently extends the available power. I don't think it increases the power that they would have if/when they fully awaken. I'm simply calling where I think Riful is wrong in her thinking.
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Old 2007-10-19, 10:10   Link #117
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Assuming that Priscilla didn't suppress her youki in either of these encounters (we don't know if Priscilla-Isley-time showed the same as Priscilla-Riful-time).

All assumption of course, but Judging by the fact Riful did not notice Priscilla from a mile away, when she could detect Alicia from a significant distance, likely means that Priscilla was hiding her Yoki. (Something she excells at.)

Quote:
You're right, I forgot that it was clearly stated Alicia was increasing her power and speed gradually. I remembered though that Alicia commented herself that she could deliver Riful 50% damage and die so I thought that her training could be only focused on increasing time in which she could stay in awakened state. After all even fully awakened Alicia wouldn't be able to kill Riful in a split of a second (we saw how long went Isley vs Luciella battle) so after she went through her limit and returned back to claymore form she would be killed instantly - that was my reasoning.
Yup, I read this manga entirely too much, so I remember stuff like that >.<
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Old 2007-10-19, 10:14   Link #118
Sassarai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flar View Post
Back to square one:

Until you awaken... become stronger! And then wake up, that way you will become even stronger awakened beings.
~Riful - chapter 49
I dont think Riful knows whether if Claymores are going to be strong or weak. She tortured many Claymores and made them turn into ABS. Then she took a stab at it and she guessed that only low rank Claymores make strong ABS since all the high rank ones were pretty weak. So my guess is that she thinks that if they become stronger Claymores they might become powerful ABs o_O. That make sense lol?

Last edited by Sassarai; 2007-10-19 at 12:17.
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Old 2007-10-19, 14:09   Link #119
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
I dont think Riful knows whether if Claymores are going to be strong or weak. She tortured many Claymores and made them turn into ABS. Then she took a stab at it and she guessed that only low rank Claymores make strong ABS since all the high rank ones were pretty weak. So my guess is that she thinks that if they become stronger Claymores they might become powerful ABs o_O. That make sense lol?
????

I got quite the opposite impression actually.

Riful did not even care about lower ranked Claymores, as proven by Katea, and she only wanted higher ranked ones, like Jean.

Her sudden change of tune came when she layed eyes on the half-awakened Clare, she obviously saw something there.
Perhaps the potential to grow outside the normal limits of power?

Jean also managed to come back from the brink, from the very edge so to speak, and this peaked Riful's interest even more.

So naturally Riful was interested in seeing the outcome of allowing these unique individuals grow, and to someday awaken them.

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Oh, I didn't answer it because I thought it was rhetorical. My point still is that her answer was plausible, and that's all it needed to be under the circumstances, that (presumably) she had never conducted herself in anyway that would arouse their suspicion before that they would bother to check up on her story.
Oh really? Orsay sure did not think so, if I remember correctly he said this on Teresa after she killed the bandits;

"You finally did it. I knew this day would come"

His statment makes it obvious that he was suspicious of Teresa for a while.

Her answer was also not plausible at all, how the hell would normal Yoma even touch her? the Organization, even if not accurately, knew Teresa's power level, normaly Yoma couldn't scratch her.

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Doesn't matter. All Teresa admitted to was not detecting her presence initially, thus giving an opportunity for a sneak attack. That doesn't mean she was unguarded and would not have been able to react sufficiently against that sneak attack.
The complete shock on her face tells a different story, and she herself admitted it would have gotten her. Even if your on guard, if someone is coming to stab you from behind, and you did not know they were there, you would get stabbed.


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But that's my point I think. She couldn't deceive the org about her power. Based upon her naivete, she would have no motive to either.
It is possible she just never used Yoki before, she obviously had very poor control over it. Thus she must have not had much experience handeling it.


Quote:
That's an interesting factor I haven't considered. But my thoughts on Clare is that she has Teresa's full potential to tap into because of Teresa's yoma material. What makes it difficult to tap into it is because she is indeed a different hybrid being 3/4 human. But after her latest, more advanced semi-awakening, she has shown to be stronger as a semi-awakened than a fully-awakened number 2. Come on, man. There's got to be a lot going for that Yoma material.
That is kind of what I mean by compatibility. Clare had a low compatibility with Teresa's Yoma, but the more she awakens, the more compatible she becomes with her Teresa side, thus the reason she grows exponentially stronger with her partial-awakenings.
If the Organization had that Yoma material on hand, they probably would stick it in more then one Claymore.


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(snip)I'm simply calling where I think Riful is wrong in her thinking.
That is kind of the point of this arguement, interpreting Riful's words. If Riful is completely wrong, then yet this entire arguement has no substance for either side, but from what we have seen of the Partialy-awakened development, she could indeed be correct.
Clare in Rabona became an AB she would have very likely been completely different then Pieta Clare becoming an AB.
The only real changes in this time are Clare's partial-awakenings, thus we can guesstimate that the partial-awakening = more powerful AB, as Riful stated.
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Last edited by Fenrir_valindri; 2007-10-19 at 14:24.
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Old 2007-10-19, 14:21   Link #120
azurie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
????

I got quite the opposite impression actually.

Riful did not even care about lower ranked Claymores, as proven by Katea, and she only wanted higher ranked ones, like Jean.

Her sudden change of tune came when she layed eyes on the half-awakened Clare, she obviously saw something there, the potential to grow outside the normal limits of power, and the same thing happened to Jean. So naturally Riful was interested in seeing the outcome off all that.
i think she sensed the yoki of teresa just as in episode 25 - 26 so did easely did or at least that's the impression i got from what he said.
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