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Old 2007-10-19, 14:26   Link #121
Sassarai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
????

I got quite the opposite impression actually.

Riful did not even care about lower ranked Claymores, as proven by Katea, and she only wanted higher ranked ones, like Jean.
I dont think Riful knows whether if Claymores are going to be strong or weak. She tortured many Claymores and made them turn into ABS. Then she took a stab at it and she guessed that only low rank Claymores make strong ABS since all the high rank ones were pretty weak.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Her sudden change of tune came when she layed eyes on the half-awakened Clare, she obviously saw something there.
Perhaps the potential to grow outside the normal limits of power?

Jean also managed to come back from the brink, from the very edge so to speak, and this peaked Riful's interest even more.

So naturally Riful was interested in seeing the outcome of allowing these unique individuals grow, and to someday awaken them.

So my guess is that she thinks that if they become stronger Claymores they might become powerful ABs o_O. That make sense lol?


lol sounds similar to what Ive said.
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Old 2007-10-19, 14:28   Link #122
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by azurie View Post
i think she sensed the yoki of teresa just as in episode 25 - 26 so did easely did or at least that's the impression i got from what he said.
Then what about Jean? Her statement included both Clare and Jean, so it cannot just be the Teresa-factor peaking Riful's interest. Besides the anime is not very reliable for stuff like that.

Priscilla never responded to Clare's yoki oddly in the Manga, yet she could sense it quite well.
Irene was the only one who could detect a faint hint of Teresa in Clare's aura.

---------------

I edited my above post with more info btw

Edit: To Sassarai

Your definatly confusing me, Riful clearly stated that Strong Claymores = Strong AB, hell she herself is living proof of that.

My guessing is we are have a confusion of words here, do you mean higher rank= higher number or higher rank = single digit?

Because I am referring to Higher Rank = Single digits.
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Old 2007-10-19, 14:30   Link #123
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low rank = i meant low numbers my fault for the confusion
high rank meaning high numbers lol ops
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Old 2007-10-19, 14:34   Link #124
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Lol glad we got that cleared up.
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Old 2007-10-19, 14:57   Link #125
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post

I didn't bring this up because I was arguing against a point you made about it. I was just completing my thought process. But I think where we might depart (I'm not really sure) is that some people think that that potential is limitless, when it's not. There's the full measure of power that one reaches by awakening, so it's finite. There's a threshold wherein if passed one cannot return, save for that semi-awakening phenomenon where the threshold is increased to wherever they happen to return from. But that extends only their threshold which consequently extends the available power. I don't think it increases the power that they would have if/when they fully awaken. I'm simply calling where I think Riful is wrong in her thinking.
OMG I AGREE WITH KHRYOLEOZ THE WORLD IS DOOM! Well actually Ive already stated it awhile back. I think Riful is wrong too. She doesn't seem like an expert in the field. I mean limitless power would = DBZ!! I mean look at Claymore's history of ABs. All the powerful ones were no1 no2. I don't think there has been any evidence of a low rank strong AB yet. Exception probably would be Clare since shes "special"

Last edited by Sassarai; 2007-10-19 at 16:20.
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Old 2007-10-19, 16:53   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
OMG I AGREE WITH KHRYOLEOZ THE WORLD IS DOOM! Well actually Ive already stated it awhile back. I think Riful is wrong too. She doesn't seem like an expert in the field. I mean limitless power would = DBZ!! I mean look at Claymore's history of ABs. All the powerful ones were no1 no2. I don't think there has been any evidence of a low rank strong AB yet. Exception probably would be Clare since shes "special"
As I said, we have no clue whether it is really unlimited or not, but it probably allows quite a dramatic increase in power. There is also the matter of them potentially awakening whenever they attempt to go over their limit.

All the powerful ABs were indeed higher single digits, but it appears the partially-awakening is a relativly new phenomina (judging by Riful's reaction to it)

Clare is also not the only exception as we have Miria, Deneve, and Helen, but Clare probably has the most to gain form it.

Even if it was limitless power like DBZ, DBZ had almost no risk involved with power, while Claymore certainly has a serious risk factor involved, awakening.
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Old 2007-10-19, 17:06   Link #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
As I said, we have no clue whether it is really unlimited or not, but it probably allows quite a dramatic increase in power. There is also the matter of them potentially awakening whenever they attempt to go over their limit.

All the powerful ABs were indeed higher single digits, but it appears the partially-awakening is a relativly new phenomina (judging by Riful's reaction to it)

Clare is also not the only exception as we have Miria, Deneve, and Helen, but Clare probably has the most to gain form it.

Even if it was limitless power like DBZ, DBZ had almost no risk involved with power, while Claymore certainly has a serious risk factor involved, awakening.
I dont think just Rifuls reaction alone would be evidence enough since I doubt partially awakened claymores would tell others what happened. Plus the manga made it sound like Riful was just a genius and released all her powers so she wasnt in the org that long. (not too sure)

What I meant when I said clare is an exception is we already knew she has a strong AB form but as for helen miria and deneve we dont. When Riful said get stronger then awaken I assume she meant fully awaken. Are you referring to them being stronger just being partially?
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Old 2007-10-19, 17:19   Link #128
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
I dont think just Rifuls reaction alone would be evidence enough since I doubt partially awakened claymores would tell others what happened. Plus the manga made it sound like Riful was just a genius and released all her powers so she wasnt in the org that long. (not too sure)
Riful is one of the oldest and most experienced beings in the Claymore-verse, so her word counts for quite a bit, especially since her Yoki-reading skills seem quite impressive.

Quote:
What I meant when I said clare is an exception is we already knew she has a strong AB form but as for helen miria and deneve we dont. When Riful said get stronger then awaken I assume she meant fully awaken. Are you referring to them being stronger just being partially?
Riful said this:

"By the way: You two are halfway there already. Rather then forcefully awaken you now, leaving you to ripen a bit more and then reaping the results seems far more delicous. Until you awaken become stronger! and then wake up. That way you will become even stronger awakened beings!"

So yes I did mean partially-awaken is making them stronger, there is no denying that, we have already seen clear evidence in Helen, Deneve, and Clare who can match single digits, and Miria, who even for a short time, could match speeds with an Awakened #2.
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Old 2007-10-19, 17:25   Link #129
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Oh im sure partial awakening makes them stronger I was referring to full blown AB mode.

As for riful knowing I still doubt it cuz Miria Clare Deneve and Helen awakened before and she never knew about it. Isnt Dewellers of the deep/abyss meant they just settle at a certain area and hid themselves? Plus shes a loli I mean she must of gotten out of the organization very fast.
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Old 2007-10-19, 18:23   Link #130
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Well, look at how young Miata is and she possesses a power to rival the top digits easily. Riful was probably a little older when she was 'Claymorized' and of course a genius would test one's limits rather quickly so yeah she Awakened.
Being 'Claymorized' slows your aging tremendously but Awakening totally freezes it from that point on.

As for the rest of the Fab 4, we really don't know how strong they would be if they Awakened because they would sure as hell die before they would cross that line. Or at least want to, despite the emotional toll it would exact upon the others. I'll take anime Helen's reaction to Clare asking her to kill her over the manga any day since it was so...emotional.

And thanks to Yagi-sensei's weird imaginations, I can't even begin to speculate as to what sort of forms the girls would have since an ABs body is a twisted reflection of their soul and personality and apparently desires thanks to Clare's near Awakening.

I mean, look at Jean's AB form - a freakin butterfly - when she had the most powerful attack technique of her time - a drill no less. Did she want to be beautiful? Did she not consider herself beautiful? She was a warrior yes, but she was still a woman so maybe that underlying desire was manifested in her AB form?

Meh, deviated from the main topic there...I wish SimplyEd was still around - that way I could ask for an analysis of the AB forms that we have seen so far and how they showcase the AB's personality and mindset.

I'll finish below later. :3

Spoiler for RPG fun ^_^:
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Last edited by Tempest35; 2007-10-19 at 18:35.
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Old 2007-10-19, 19:04   Link #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
She did so with Irene's arm, a arm that is quite probably capable of performing Flora's Windcutter better then Flora could. Clare brought out the latent "potential" of Irene's arm to use the Windcutter.
Yes, it could be Irene's arm.
It is an arm very suited for such technique.
It makes me think that Clare is the greatest "cheater" of this series.
Point conceded.

Quote:
I agree, although I think mental is vitally important to the practicality of Yoki use.
"nod" too.

Quote:
But was she changing their trajectory or Dauf's aim?
It could be both.

Indeed, she was changing the trajectory of Duff's punches and blows.
Like that time when he lift both his arms and went with all his force to squash Galatea, and then, in the next scene, we saw Galatea standing on the same exact place, almost inside Duff's hands.
(When I saw this, I thought "Wow!!!"... that was the epitome of security and control... amazing )

But, for the poles, she probably changed their targets, which means Duff's aim.

Change the trajectory of the poles in the air would be a radical thing.
They're launched with great speed. Even for a master like Galatea, it sounds too difficult.

Although it is theoretically possible. As Clare sensed, Duff's poles had significant amounts of yoki.
This also could explain the strange behavior of Easleys's arrows. To manipulate them, he could be aligning yoki with the arrows.
It must be easier doing this trick with an object that was part of or belongs to his body. (same yoki level)

Hmmm...sounds logical.

But, all this was just to show you that Galatea can handle with multiple targets, though she can't manipulate multiple Claymores, as far as we have seen.

Quote:
True enough, I do think Partially-awakening has a limit to its power increase, but we have yet to see it. We just might with Alicia and Beth.
Yeah, lets wait and see if this speculation is right.
Can't wait to see the twins again in the series too.

Quote:
It would not surprise me if the Organization had a fall-back plan like that.
They probably do. Alicia is the top sensation now, but I think Beth will give us a great or even greater surprise as well.

--------------------

About the veracity of Riful's statement.
Well, most counter-arguments that I'm seeing claim that Riful could be simply wrong because she never saw the partially awakening phenomena, so she couldn't make any true statements about it.

Right, she probably never saw the partially awakening phenomenon, but to state such thing, she really doesn't have to know it.
Even if she doesn't, what she really have to understand to make such statement, is the process of awakening, which she knows pretty much well.
She was also the youngest to unleash this power in history.

Let's look at her reasoning:

She was looking for really strong Claymores, that are normally found in the lower digits of the Organization.
If she awake a strong Claymore, say a single digit, the resulting awakened being is going to be a really powerful one.
Ok until here.

But she met a partially awakened Claymore, that showed her how strong, fast and powerful a partially awakened Claymore can be.
A medium or even weak Claymore partially awakened can be almost as powerful or so powerful as a single digit.
So, if she awake a partially awakened Claymore, the resulting awakened being is going to be so powerful as a single digit awakened being. (or almost)

She realized that the partially awakening greatly increases several stats and make Claymores even stronger.
So, instead of making they awake now, she let them evolve and develop even more, so they could be even more powerful awakened beings, when they finally awake.

I think that's what she meant.

Also, regarding that:

To any Claymore, a boost of partially awakening is too much risky.

First, because awakening means lost all their humanity. This would mean lost everything that they had been fighting for.
They probably won't risk going closer to something like that anymore.

Second, because no one can guarantee that the Claymore doing this will be able to get back. No one.

Third, even with a supporter to help bringing her back, that is no guarantee that she will always succeed. We saw what happened to Luciela.
A failure could mean the death of all involved.

Unless, the supporter has trained great part of her life for doing this.
That's the case of the twins.

And this, led me to think that the Organization has the main piece of the chess set now.

But even with the theoretical advantage, all the process of awakening is too much delicate, even for them who were training great parts of their lives for doing such thing.
It doesn't look like the type of thing that you could do in the same way you put your shoes.

Anyway, it is all a theory and like any other, it could be wrong.
It supports nearly unlimited power, which is an absurd thing. But it would be very unlikely though.

Also, Riful, as Teresa, doesn't seem to be the type of character that lies.

But in the same way people seem to dislike DBZ comparisons, I dislike too.
I would definitely stop seeing Claymore if Clare threw something like a "Kamehame-ha" composed of yoki.

The thing is, we are not throwing out personal ideas. It all have basis, according to the hints, statements and speeches of the characters.

Last edited by Fate_Archer; 2007-10-19 at 22:38.
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Old 2007-10-20, 02:08   Link #132
Sassarai
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Alright Guess ill just have to use Ulimited Sass Works to defeat you all

"I am the bone of my claymore.

Half yoma is my body, and yoki is in my blood.

I've defeated over a thousand ABs.

Unaware of loss.
Nor aware of gain

With stood pain to defeated those ABs.


I have no regrets. This is the only path.

My whole life was "Unlimited SASS works!"






Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate_Archer View Post
The thing is, we are not throwing out personal ideas. It all have basis, according to the hints, statements and speeches of the characters.
Aren't they personal ideas based on hints,statements, speeches? aka assumptions? Which is pretty
much all this debating is about? I dont see right or wrong answers until the manga artist decides to clear
things up.

Last edited by Sassarai; 2007-10-20 at 03:10.
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Old 2007-10-20, 03:59   Link #133
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About this DBZ infinite power-up thing, remember what the MIB said to Alicia at the end of chapter 49:

"Your training will move on to the next stage, we will be raising your power and speed by 30% step by step from now on, comprehend that the strain on your body will be doubled" (emphasis mine)

It seems clear that Alicia has already pseudo-awakened, since they try to determine if her current power is sufficient, but there is still something that limits the power-ups, a strain too great on anyone is synonymous of death.

We saw this in chapter 64 with Luciela too: even Abyssal Ones have an upper limit beyond which they are forced to cool down.

So going out on a limb about the awakening thing: what if the power of the result AB was a factor of the power of the current body of the Claymore? Half-awakening would speed the training process by making the human Claymore more resistant to the stress and more used to power, but it would not be necessary.
As to the thing about "potential", what about the power surge is the same but in the case of a a powerful Claymore that power is more efficiently used and harnessed? Like giving Superman's power to a bum versus giving it to a kung-fu master. If it includes body mods, wouldn't the fighting specialist design his to be so much deadlier than the noob's?
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Old 2007-10-20, 10:05   Link #134
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Flar View Post
About this DBZ infinite power-up thing, remember what the MIB said to Alicia at the end of chapter 49:

"Your training will move on to the next stage, we will be raising your power and speed by 30% step by step from now on, comprehend that the strain on your body will be doubled" (emphasis mine)

It seems clear that Alicia has already pseudo-awakened, since they try to determine if her current power is sufficient, but there is still something that limits the power-ups, a strain too great on anyone is synonymous of death.

We saw this in chapter 64 with Luciela too: even Abyssal Ones have an upper limit beyond which they are forced to cool down.

So going out on a limb about the awakening thing: what if the power of the result AB was a factor of the power of the current body of the Claymore? Half-awakening would speed the training process by making the human Claymore more resistant to the stress and more used to power, but it would not be necessary.
As to the thing about "potential", what about the power surge is the same but in the case of a a powerful Claymore that power is more efficiently used and harnessed? Like giving Superman's power to a bum versus giving it to a kung-fu master. If it includes body mods, wouldn't the fighting specialist design his to be so much deadlier than the noob's?
The strain is a good point, it is kind of what I ment by this "infinite power up" being limited by the risk. Even Alicia and Beth suffer an immense amount of strain when doing their soul-link, so it would be close to impossible for anyone to abuse this "potential" well of power.

In Lucalea's case it was more exhaustion then anything, she did not have the energy to maintain her Awakened form after fighting with Isley.
Which supports the theory that awakened beings use alot of their SS < energy to maintain their bodies.

The thing is all Claymores are trained the same way, but some are just purely more powerful then others, which means that it cannot just be a matter of effecient energy use, although that certainly helps in the case of Flash-sword and Miria's Phantoms.

--------------------------------

As for Fate_Archer's post

Quote:
It could be both.

Indeed, she was changing the trajectory of Duff's punches and blows.
Like that time when he lift both his arms and went with all his force to squash Galatea, and then, in the next scene, we saw Galatea standing on the same exact place, almost inside Duff's hands.
(When I saw this, I thought "Wow!!!"... that was the epitome of security and control... amazing )

But, for the poles, she probably changed their targets, which means Duff's aim.

Change the trajectory of the poles in the air would be a radical thing.
They're launched with great speed. Even for a master like Galatea, it sounds too difficult.

Although it is theoretically possible. As Clare sensed, Duff's poles had significant amounts of yoki.
This also could explain the strange behavior of Easleys's arrows. To manipulate them, he could be aligning yoki with the arrows.
It must be easier doing this trick with an object that was part of or belongs to his body. (same yoki level)

Hmmm...sounds logical.

But, all this was just to show you that Galatea can handle with multiple targets, though she can't manipulate multiple Claymores, as far as we have seen.

Sounds about right to me, Isley's arrows are a damn interesting thing, even Dauf's rods don't compare to those things.

Quote:
About the veracity of Riful's statement.
Well, most counter-arguments that I'm seeing claim that Riful could be simply wrong because she never saw the partially awakening phenomena, so she couldn't make any true statements about it.

Right, she probably never saw the partially awakening phenomenon, but to state such thing, she really doesn't have to know it.
Even if she doesn't, what she really have to understand to make such statement, is the process of awakening, which she knows pretty much well.
She was also the youngest to unleash this power in history.

Let's look at her reasoning:

She was looking for really strong Claymores, that are normally found in the lower digits of the Organization.
If she awake a strong Claymore, say a single digit, the resulting awakened being is going to be a really powerful one.
Ok until here.

But she met a partially awakened Claymore, that showed her how strong, fast and powerful a partially awakened Claymore can be.
A medium or even weak Claymore partially awakened can be almost as powerful or so powerful as a single digit.
So, if she awake a partially awakened Claymore, the resulting awakened being is going to be so powerful as a single digit awakened being. (or almost)

She realized that the partially awakening greatly increases several stats and make Claymores even stronger.
So, instead of making they awake now, she let them evolve and develop even more, so they could be even more powerful awakened beings, when they finally awake.

I think that's what she meant.
About what I thought as well, she saw the potential to claim more powerful AB allies by allowing the partially-awakened Claymore's to grow. She must have been in a real good mood to spare Galatea though, or maybe Alicia spooked her.


Quote:
To any Claymore, a boost of partially awakening is too much risky.

First, because awakening means lost all their humanity. This would mean lost everything that they had been fighting for.
They probably won't risk going closer to something like that anymore.

Second, because no one can guarantee that the Claymore doing this will be able to get back. No one.

Third, even with a supporter to help bringing her back, that is no guarantee that she will always succeed. We saw what happened to Luciela.
A failure could mean the death of all involved.

Unless, the supporter has trained great part of her life for doing this.
That's the case of the twins.

And this, led me to think that the Organization has the main piece of the chess set now.

But even with the theoretical advantage, all the process of awakening is too much delicate, even for them who were training great parts of their lives for doing such thing.
It doesn't look like the type of thing that you could do in the same way you put your shoes
I agree completely, it involved far to much risk, but Alicia and Beth are the best equipped to do it if it is indeed possible.


Quote:
Anyway, it is all a theory and like any other, it could be wrong.
It supports nearly unlimited power, which is an absurd thing. But it would be very unlikely though.

Also, Riful, as Teresa, doesn't seem to be the type of character that lies.

But in the same way people seem to dislike DBZ comparisons, I dislike too.
I would definitely stop seeing Claymore if Clare threw something like a "Kamehame-ha" composed of yoki.

The thing is, we are not throwing out personal ideas. It all have basis, according to the hints, statements and speeches of the characters.
Hehe such is the way of Theories, it does support unlimited power, but is it really unlimited with the immense amount of risk and strain involved?

As for Riful; I agree she does not seem like the type of character to lie, she has supreme confidence in her abilities, and before meeting Priscilla, I doubt she really considered anything a threat to her, so she would have no reason to lie.

I would be pretty shocked if Clare ever did something like that.

and yes, none of us are just pulling this huge debate out of no-where, most of us have pretty valid points, even if i believe some of the others to be wrong

-----------------------------------

Quote:
Aren't they personal ideas based on hints,statements, speeches? aka assumptions? Which is pretty
much all this debating is about? I dont see right or wrong answers until the manga artist decides to clear
things up
I think that was what he was getting at, we won't know who is right until Yagi gives us a definiate answer.
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Old 2007-10-20, 11:51   Link #135
Sassarai
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Originally Posted by Flar View Post
As to the thing about "potential", what about the power surge is the same but in the case of a a powerful Claymore that power is more efficiently used and harnessed? Like giving Superman's power to a bum versus giving it to a kung-fu master. If it includes body mods, wouldn't the fighting specialist design his to be so much deadlier than the noob's?

SAY WHATT!!???


I don't get it.
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Old 2007-10-20, 11:52   Link #136
Flar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
The thing is all Claymores are trained the same way, but some are just purely more powerful then others, which means that it cannot just be a matter of effecient energy use, although that certainly helps in the case of Flash-sword and Miria's Phantoms.
I meant in case of an awakening. The size of the power-up may vary from claymore to claymore, but if a noob claymore gets 100000 XP points, she probably will mess up and upgrade to an AB form that will be totally overwhelmed by the AB from of an experienced warrior who only got 50000 XP to spend wisely. Just look at the effectiveness of flash sword against fully awakened beings, and Clare only uses a ridiculously tiny amount of Yoki to make it that powerful.

Not saying that if she awakened, the Teresa power well wouldn't make her a goddess.


Quote:
About what I thought as well, she saw the potential to claim more powerful AB allies by allowing the partially-awakened Claymore's to grow. She must have been in a real good mood to spare Galatea though, or maybe Alicia spooked her.
Riful is that cool. Honest, intelligent, playful, whimsical and totally amoral. I love how she laughed at herself in chapter 71 "Gosh all that effort for nothing, that is pathetic".

Speaking about that, in those 7 years she must have accumulated quite a high number of AB if she specifically targets all the high digit claymores she can sense, like Audrey and Rachel, they couldn't have been the first she got in her clucthes (well, hair, rather). Then again, Miria found her firend's sword in the mountain, so I can't discard miraculous coincidences.
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Old 2007-10-20, 15:04   Link #137
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I wonder, will they release that stat book in english?


Great Archer reference up there btw lol
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Old 2007-10-20, 16:52   Link #138
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most of the books be it manga or the stat book i can't even get where i live sadly =(
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Old 2007-10-20, 17:40   Link #139
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Can't you order it online? I'd figure you could order anything if your in the usa
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Old 2007-10-20, 17:55   Link #140
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could yeah but that cost $$ if i knew where to get it
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