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Old 2008-11-25, 04:07   Link #1941
Sordes Pilosus
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Miria held her own against Rigaldo... seriusly... have we read the same manga ??? Miria did not land 1 Single Wounding hit on Rigaldo, and she was rapidly being overpowered by a unserius Rigaldo that just adapted to Miria's speed by each passing second causing more and more dammage to Miria.. Seriusly, holding ones own in battle means not being overpowered. Miria was drasticly outmatched in that battle.
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Old 2008-11-25, 05:46   Link #1942
KillerYomaFromSpace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sordes Pilosus View Post
Miria held her own against Rigaldo... seriusly... have we read the same manga ??? Miria did not land 1 Single Wounding hit on Rigaldo, and she was rapidly being overpowered by a unserius Rigaldo that just adapted to Miria's speed by each passing second causing more and more dammage to Miria.. Seriusly, holding ones own in battle means not being overpowered. Miria was drasticly outmatched in that battle.
I never said she had to land any hit, and I never said she would win against Rigardo, but the diference is this...

Ophelia only lasted 4 pages against that AB

Miria lasted 13 pages against Rigardo (I'm not counting the pages that shows other claymores)

If you can't see that then its obvious that we havent read the same manga

just analyze ophelia's fight, she attacks that AB in the typical Miria way and still her blade touches the AB's neck, if you add there the extra speed of a real mirage instead, it would be game over for the AB, meaning that that AB was no way near as fast as Rigardo and she still catched Ophelia in her first attempt.

Ophelia against Rigardo wouldn't last more than Jean

Last edited by KillerYomaFromSpace; 2008-11-25 at 06:18.
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Old 2008-11-25, 06:17   Link #1943
irvinethearcher
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Miria was number 8 when she joined ophelia to hunt hilda. In this hunt she half awakened and improved to number 6 because of it. Miria warned them about the numbers 1 to 5.
She said:
"Everyone of them is a monster" and that the power gap between 5 and 6 is huge.
So i think at this time ophelia was still stronger than miria. But IMO before pieta miria advanced further. Deneve hinted at that, so she could have become be a match for ophelia or even more during pieta.
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Old 2008-11-25, 09:13   Link #1944
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KillerYoma are you serious?

Jeans was number 9, she improved a lot because of the Awakening but still Ophelia was number 4

Miria improved a lot before going into Pieta so, in Pieta she should be as strong as Ophelia was when she died.
If Miria fougth against that weird AB she would have been killed in seconds. Even if the figth was exactly the same as it was against Ophelia, MIria couldn't survive a broken neck.
Ophelia against Rigardo she would last as long as Miria.
The proof that Miria was weaker than Ophelia is that se didn't attacked her after the figth with Hilda. Why? Because she knew that she wouldn't stand a chance.

And I was speculating that the weird AB was a top five because she was stronger than Hilda for sure and Hilda was a number 6.

Also, if the Organization wasn't sure that Ophelia could kill that AB, they wouldn't have sent her alone to hunt him. Clare doesn't count, she was there to die
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Old 2008-11-25, 09:24   Link #1945
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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
KillerYoma are you serious?

Jeans was number 9, she improved a lot because of the Awakening but still Ophelia was number 4

Miria improved a lot before going into Pieta so, in Pieta she should be as strong as Ophelia was when she died.
If Miria fougth against that weird AB she would have been killed in seconds. Even if the figth was exactly the same as it was against Ophelia, MIria couldn't survive a broken neck.
Ophelia against Rigardo she would last as long as Miria.
The proof that Miria was weaker than Ophelia is that se didn't attacked her after the figth with Hilda. Why? Because she knew that she wouldn't stand a chance.

And I was speculating that the weird AB was a top five because she was stronger than Hilda for sure and Hilda was a number 6.

Also, if the Organization wasn't sure that Ophelia could kill that AB, they wouldn't have sent her alone to hunt him. Clare doesn't count, she was there to die
Miria didn't fight Ophelia because thats what Ophelia wanted, so she kept her cool instead, she also didn't know that her skills would improve with the half awakening, also she didn't want to go rogue from the organization yet, so she planned her vengeance to take them all down later

and Hilda who was number 6 then said that Miria surpassed her speed, and Miria was nš17 and not even half awakened

also the gap mentioned from nš 5 to 6 was surely because the nš5 Rahpaela was really a nš1

It would make much more sense if Rubel arranged the whole meeting with Ophelia instead of the org.
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Old 2008-11-25, 09:33   Link #1946
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Originally Posted by KillerYomaFromSpace View Post
Miria didn't fight Ophelia because thats what Ophelia wanted, so she kept her cool instead, she also didn't know that her skills would improve with the half awakening, also she didn't want to go rogue from the organization yet, so she planned her vengeance to take them all down later

and Hilda who was number 6 then said that Miria surpassed her speed, and Miria was nš17 and not even half awakened

also the gap mentioned from nš 5 to 6 was surely because the nš5 Rahpaela was really a nš1

It would make much more sense if Rubel arranged the whole meeting with Ophelia instead of the org.
Ophelia was special, it wasn't normal a Claymore that could kill single digits AB all alone, Miria himself said that Ophelia could kill Hilda allone.

Even if it was Rubel, then he was certain that it wasn't possible for Clare to survive a figth against Ophelia

And I think that she meant that the gap between number 6 and 5 was a general rule.
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Old 2008-11-25, 10:28   Link #1947
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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Ophelia was special, it wasn't normal a Claymore that could kill single digits AB all alone, Miria himself said that Ophelia could kill Hilda allone.
Hilda was a mummy, and she was holding back her youki
http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/73.2/26/

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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Even if it was Rubel, then he was certain that it wasn't possible for Clare to survive a figth against Ophelia
the discussion is not Ophelia vs Clare, is Ophelia vs that AB, and Rubel wouldn't care less if Ophelia died there, after all, she also knew about half awakening

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And I think that she meant that the gap between number 6 and 5 was a general rule.
take Raphaela out of the equation, and Miria would be that nš5, I don't think there is such a rule, as it would be impossible to follow. the numbers in claymores change very quickly, and it would be impossible to control such a thing, and Raphaela nš5 seemed to be the most stable number (as its completely arbitrary and undeserved), together with Alicia and Beth
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Old 2008-11-25, 11:06   Link #1948
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Hun? I tought it was Ophelia vs Miria. But now that you mention it, Suposing that it was Rubel who organized that hunt, he migth have wanted for Ophelia to get killed.

We can't take out Raphaela, she is part of the story. The best we can do is putt Raphaela as number 3, then Ophelia would be number 5. Still, there is that gap she was talking about between 6 and 5
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Old 2008-11-25, 11:49   Link #1949
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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Hun? I tought it was Ophelia vs Miria.
you mentioned Clare not being able to survive in that encounter, and I just pointed that Clare is irrelevant in Ophelia's fight against that AB. when you said "Also, if the Organization wasn't sure that Ophelia could kill that AB, they wouldn't have sent her alone to hunt him", so in this matter, it was Ophelia vs the AB. and the fact that Ophelia survived was a miracle, all ABs like to cut limbs, shred claymores to pieces, and make a lot of holes in their bodies, this by far the least bloody kill any AB had tried with the exception of Ophelia trying to drown Clare

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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
We can't take out Raphaela, she is part of the story. The best we can do is putt Raphaela as number 3, then Ophelia would be number 5. Still, there is that gap she was talking about between 6 and 5
the gap exist, but only because Raphaela is Raphaela, and not because of any general rule, she wasn't even in the ranks, they gave her a 5 just for the sake of giving her a number, as Irene said, she should have a nš1, and no you can't take her out of the story, but out of the power scale, yes, and out of the supposed "general rule" of a gap between all nš5 and nš6 too, as she was an exception.
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Old 2008-11-25, 13:46   Link #1950
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It really falls to a matter of combat style.

Miria's incrediable speed is always an asset to her, and allows her to land a hit where others would be too slow. Against Rigaldo it allowed her to last much longer then any of his previous targets, Rigaldo didn't land a hit until Miria slowed down from exhaustion. Despite what Clare said, Rigaldo was the one one keeping pace, as he never landed a hit until Miria got tired.

Ophelia was an all-around powerful warrior, and I don't doubt her ability to defeat Miria pre-Pieta.
Her victory against the Awakened Being looked like a fluke more then a planned victory, but that AB WAS a single digit.
I doubt she would have faired much better then Miria did against Rigaldo however, she might have even done worse but only due to her combat style (all-rounder) vs Miria's (speed)


I would like to point out that Miria's strength had gone up significantly from when she warned everyone about Ophelia to Pieta. Everyone noted a significant improvement in her strength.

Clare leveled up to be as powerful as a #8, but Miria had quite possibly gained the strength to be equal to or above Ophelia's at that point in time.
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Old 2008-11-25, 14:08   Link #1951
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[QUOTE=Fenrir_valindri;2073841]It really falls to a matter of combat style.

Miria's incrediable speed is always an asset to her, and allows her to land a hit where others would be too slow. Against Rigaldo it allowed her to last much longer then any of his previous targets, Rigaldo didn't land a hit until Miria slowed down from exhaustion. Despite what Clare said, Rigaldo was the one one keeping pace, as he never landed a hit until Miria got tired.

Ophelia was an all-around powerful warrior, and I don't doubt her ability to defeat Miria pre-Pieta.
Her victory against the Awakened Being looked like a fluke more then a planned victory, but that AB WAS a single digit.
I doubt she would have faired much better then Miria did against Rigaldo however, she might have even done worse but only due to her combat style (all-rounder) vs Miria's (speed)


I would like to point out that Miria's strength had gone up significantly from when she warned everyone about Ophelia to Pieta. Everyone noted a significant improvement in her strength.

Clare leveled up to be as powerful as a #8, but Miria had quite possibly gained the strength to be equal to or above Ophelia's at that point in time.[/QUOT

I don't think I could had anything to that.

Maybe just this.
Compare the current number 5 (Rachel) with the current number 6 (Renne) and you will see the gap, KillerYoma.
Anyway, all of the Claymore from this generation suck except Alicia, Beth, Miata and Dietrich
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Old 2008-11-25, 14:16   Link #1952
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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Compare the current number 5 (Rachel) with the current number 6 (Renne) and you will see the gap, KillerYoma.
I don't see that huge gap between those two
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Old 2008-11-25, 15:24   Link #1953
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I don't see that huge gap between those two
Altough Riful wasn't figthing seriously, Rachel was able to cut her body while Renne was beaten with two strikes
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Old 2008-11-25, 16:13   Link #1954
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I will tell you the huge gap between Miria and Ophelia. Claymore 31 page 15 Rubel says, " North of here is a place called Gonahl. A villiage near a small castle. It is already in ruins. The target is a former single digit. The village was destroyed within half a day after she arrived. She's much stronger than the male you fought before. If you don't want to die, better give it all you got."

The Single digit AB praised Ophelia saying, "Too bad if you were just one step closer... but it seems I am stronger." Then after the attack (that should have killed Ophelia in the AB's mind) "The monster is you, not me."Then Clare's response, "The battle is over. Damn! That was quicker than I thought. She suffered almost no damage. I can't believe she could posses so much power."

4 Partially awakened Claymores, all heavily injured and left on the brink of death by the Male AB. Ophelia "barely suffering any damage" by Clare's youki sensing, which is better than any of ours, finishing a battle quickly against a "far stronger" opponent than the Male AB. Ophelia, by the AB's words, is a monster. Irene did not even kill her with a quicksword burst. This could be because Irene didn't want to kill her, but I somehow doubt that Irene would have problems killing something like Ophelia. Too bad we don't know what happened after Clare dropped unconscious, except that she managed to reattatch her hand before completely blacking out.

Ophelia >> Miria + Clare + Helen + Deneve

Not only was Ophelia fighting the stronger AB, but she was fighting Raki at the same time! We can get into the talks about how much stronger Miria was in Pieta, but at that point Ophelia had awakened and had Clare assist in her suicide, so there really is not much point. Miria didn't land a single hit on Rigardo, her ability just barely kept her alive.

Remember, Ophelia has a fetish for fighting AB's, so don't underestimate her bloodlust in battles. She lived for killing awakened beings.
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Old 2008-11-25, 16:25   Link #1955
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I will tell you the huge gap between Miria and Ophelia. Claymore 31 page 15 Rubel says, " North of here is a place called Gonahl. A villiage near a small castle. It is already in ruins. The target is a former single digit. The village was destroyed within half a day after she arrived. She's much stronger than the male you fought before. If you don't want to die, better give it all you got."

The Single digit AB praised Ophelia saying, "Too bad if you were just one step closer... but it seems I am stronger." Then after the attack (that should have killed Ophelia in the AB's mind) "The monster is you, not me."Then Clare's response, "The battle is over. Damn! That was quicker than I thought. She suffered almost no damage. I can't believe she could posses so much power."

4 Partially awakened Claymores, all heavily injured and left on the brink of death by the Male AB. Ophelia "barely suffering any damage" by Clare's youki sensing, which is better than any of ours, finishing a battle quickly against a "far stronger" opponent than the Male AB. Ophelia, by the AB's words, is a monster. Irene did not even kill her with a quicksword burst. This could be because Irene didn't want to kill her, but I somehow doubt that Irene would have problems killing something like Ophelia. Too bad we don't know what happened after Clare dropped unconscious, except that she managed to reattatch her hand before completely blacking out.

Ophelia >> Miria + Clare + Helen + Deneve

Not only was Ophelia fighting the stronger AB, but she was fighting Raki at the same time! We can get into the talks about how much stronger Miria was in Pieta, but at that point Ophelia had awakened and had Clare assist in her suicide, so there really is not much point. Miria didn't land a single hit on Rigardo, her ability just barely kept her alive.

Remember, Ophelia has a fetish for fighting AB's, so don't underestimate her bloodlust in battles. She lived for killing awakened beings.
Thank you
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Old 2008-11-25, 17:03   Link #1956
KillerYomaFromSpace
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Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
I will tell you the huge gap between Miria and Ophelia. Claymore 31 page 15 Rubel says, " North of here is a place called Gonahl. A villiage near a small castle. It is already in ruins. The target is a former single digit. The village was destroyed within half a day after she arrived. She's much stronger than the male you fought before. If you don't want to die, better give it all you got."

The Single digit AB praised Ophelia saying, "Too bad if you were just one step closer... but it seems I am stronger." Then after the attack (that should have killed Ophelia in the AB's mind) "The monster is you, not me."Then Clare's response, "The battle is over. Damn! That was quicker than I thought. She suffered almost no damage. I can't believe she could posses so much power."

4 Partially awakened Claymores, all heavily injured and left on the brink of death by the Male AB. Ophelia "barely suffering any damage" by Clare's youki sensing, which is better than any of ours, finishing a battle quickly against a "far stronger" opponent than the Male AB. Ophelia, by the AB's words, is a monster. Irene did not even kill her with a quicksword burst. This could be because Irene didn't want to kill her, but I somehow doubt that Irene would have problems killing something like Ophelia. Too bad we don't know what happened after Clare dropped unconscious, except that she managed to reattatch her hand before completely blacking out.

Ophelia >> Miria + Clare + Helen + Deneve

Not only was Ophelia fighting the stronger AB, but she was fighting Raki at the same time! We can get into the talks about how much stronger Miria was in Pieta, but at that point Ophelia had awakened and had Clare assist in her suicide, so there really is not much point. Miria didn't land a single hit on Rigardo, her ability just barely kept her alive.

Remember, Ophelia has a fetish for fighting AB's, so don't underestimate her bloodlust in battles. She lived for killing awakened beings.
those points have been dealt in my previous posts, go read them if you care enough, because I'm not gonna repeat anything.

and lol @ the battle with Raki
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Old 2008-11-25, 17:48   Link #1957
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I did read your posts killer yoma from space . I didn't see the points pushed cohesively, that is why I added my post to the mix. It depends on which flavor of Miria you are comparing too. I still think Ophelia dominates most characters in the series. The battles against the AB's that each of these characters faced are different too.

6 armed male AB = playing with the 4 partially awakened Claymores. "I'll give you a taste of true despair." Had he meant to kill them off the bat, he easily could have.

AB Ophelia fought = serious and meant to kill. Tried to annihilate Clare and Ophelia in the first moment she awakened. Clare used her youki hacks to dodge. Ophelia just out maneuvered her. This prompted the AB to ask, "are you stronger than the others?"

Rigardo = bloodlust. He was only aiming at strong claymores (meaning he was youki sensing), and didn't care about anyone else. Really Ophelia being able to fight Rigardo would have been both of their fantasies. They may have even stopped in the middle and kissed for a moment. Ophelia may have even been stronger than Galatea, and she is smart too, the problem was that Ophelia was CRAZY.

EDIT:

If it comes to a consideration of fighting styles we also have to consider that Miria does not want to kill other Claymores. Ophelia, on the other hand, knows Miria is half awakened and lives to kill AB's. Miria's best bet is to run very far, very fast. Oh, and Ophelia was CRAZY.
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Last edited by chibamonster; 2008-11-25 at 21:48.
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Old 2008-11-26, 08:17   Link #1958
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Are you trying to tell us Ophelia was crazy by any chance?

I'd agree with that, she was also crazy strong which is why it's surprising that Clare seems to genuinely taken up some of Ophelia's bloodlust for AB's, or that Clare could keep up with her hax ability to some extent. (though it's only defensive and lasts just as long as her stamina, which apparently sucks)

I had a re-read of the Ophelia and Clare fight and noticed a little oddity, though Clare was reading Ophelia's youki flows she completely jumped back from the first of Ophelia's Rippling sword strikes which earned her praise for having good 'intuition', yet she couldn't actually sense any difference in the flows/attacks as she then proceeded to get hit repeatedly, despite her sensing.

Ophelia - "hm pretty good intuition"
Clare - "what was that, that sensation right now?"
Clare - "but the most lethal thing is it's the kind of technique that i can't read in advance"

So how did Clare know that the attack was coming without sensing it? I think this intuition isn't actually part of her youki reading ability yet it saved her arse... Otherwise Ophelia wouldn't have commented on it, she damn well had a good idea that rippling sword couldn't be read with youki, yet was a little surprised that Clare avoided it anyway.

I'd also add Clare really got bad vibes from Ophelia's presence which also wasn't part of her yoki sensing ability. Now this may all be part of your standard shonen heroes sense of foreboding or whatever, but we know that at least one character (Miata) actually has enhanced senses/sixth sense, and all three share the commonality that they are Offensive claymores. It's got to the point where there's no way to tell how or what guides Clares' abilities as she no longer closes her eyes to read youki, and as she gets faster she's avoiding all sorts of attacks, (Riful for example). Just a thought.

My fear is that if Irene is still alive Clare may return that arm and ask Cynthia to ensure she gets her original one back.
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Old 2008-11-26, 12:24   Link #1959
irvinethearcher
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Quote:
So how did Clare know that the attack was coming without sensing it? I think this intuition isn't actually part of her youki reading ability yet it saved her arse... Otherwise Ophelia wouldn't have commented on it, she damn well had a good idea that rippling sword couldn't be read with youki, yet was a little surprised that Clare avoided it anyway.
I don't find it that odd. Clare simply sensed something changed in ophelia's yoki flow but it was simply out of her sensing abilities and her base speed to block ophelia's rippling sword.
Teresa could block irene's quicksword with her sensing which was far superior to ophelia's rippling sword so it was because of clare's lack of abilitie that she only could detetct ophelia's sword but couldn't do anything else against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chibamonster
rene did not even kill her with a quicksword burst. This could be because Irene didn't want to kill her, but I somehow doubt that Irene would have problems killing something like Ophelia.
IMO there was no fight between irene and ophelia after clare lost consciousness because we all could see how superior irene's sword was. Irene simply spared ophelia because she didn't want to kill a claymore but that probably wasn't the only reason. Remember, irene wasn't fit for battle anymore and it was probably only the curiosity of detecting teresa's yoki who motivated her to leave her hideaway. IMO it was simply half-heartedness who prevented irene from killing her. Ophelia panicked and fled. Irene had to take care of the injured clare and had no desire to chase after ophelia. After that ophelia screwed up and awakened perhaps angered by her own disability to do anything against irene.
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Old 2008-11-26, 12:49   Link #1960
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Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
I did read your posts killer yoma from space . I didn't see the points pushed cohesively, that is why I added my post to the mix. It depends on which flavor of Miria you are comparing too. I still think Ophelia dominates most characters in the series. The battles against the AB's that each of these characters faced are different too.

6 armed male AB = playing with the 4 partially awakened Claymores. "I'll give you a taste of true despair." Had he meant to kill them off the bat, he easily could have.

AB Ophelia fought = serious and meant to kill. Tried to annihilate Clare and Ophelia in the first moment she awakened. Clare used her youki hacks to dodge. Ophelia just out maneuvered her. This prompted the AB to ask, "are you stronger than the others?"

Rigardo = bloodlust. He was only aiming at strong claymores (meaning he was youki sensing), and didn't care about anyone else. Really Ophelia being able to fight Rigardo would have been both of their fantasies. They may have even stopped in the middle and kissed for a moment. Ophelia may have even been stronger than Galatea, and she is smart too, the problem was that Ophelia was CRAZY.

EDIT:

If it comes to a consideration of fighting styles we also have to consider that Miria does not want to kill other Claymores. Ophelia, on the other hand, knows Miria is half awakened and lives to kill AB's. Miria's best bet is to run very far, very fast. Oh, and Ophelia was CRAZY.
Ophelia x Rigardo, I like that
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