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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 03 Rating
Perfect 10 11 7.43%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 17.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 41 27.70%
7 out of 10 : Good 39 26.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 21 14.19%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 4.05%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.35%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.68%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.68%
Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-10-25, 16:44   Link #421
Demongod86
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Except with all of the high-speed gundams we see flying around, you can't exactly HIT one with beam weaponry very well. This happens in just about every single gundam anime in that when the main character tries blasting the enemy main character with a beam, the guy always dodges it, whether it's Zechs Leo vs. Heero Wing, Zechs Epyon vs. Heero Zero, Kira Strike vs. Athrun Aegis, Kira Freedom vs. Rau Providence, I don't remember a single time aside from GSD Ep 34 and onward that there needed to even be *blocking* of beam shots. I always remember that gundams usually were able to dodge the beams and left it at that, hence there was no choice but to go into melee with another gundam.

Of course grunts in their slow suits were a completely different story.
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Old 2007-10-25, 17:11   Link #422
kiramuro
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If a much faster moving beam or projectile can't hit a target then does it make even a bit of sense that a much slower moving melee weapon can successfully hit it?
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Old 2007-10-25, 17:21   Link #423
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Here I will say arguing for realism in Gundam, even relative realism within context, is still a pretty stupid thing to do.

Why? Because down the road, that realism within context will be blown apart because of some cool executions on behalf of the ace pilots.

So why bother?

- Tak
That point is very idiotic to say the least...Almost as ignorant as someone saying a pig is relatively a bird if realism is relative ...I don't see the point in writing another long paragraph...You obviously just don't get it...It's fine, move on and enjoy life...
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Old 2007-10-25, 17:26   Link #424
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move on and enjoy life...
I will do just that, certainly its better than to waste time arguing about a point that at the end, proves to be no point at all. But hey, if you choose to cling onto that as if it is the meaning of life, be my guest.

- Tak
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Old 2007-10-25, 18:14   Link #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiramuro View Post
If a much faster moving beam or projectile can't hit a target then does it make even a bit of sense that a much slower moving melee weapon can successfully hit it?
If the distance gap between the two fighters is closed then yes it does.
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Old 2007-10-25, 19:13   Link #426
kiramuro
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Originally Posted by timmybadshoes View Post
If the distance gap between the two fighters is closed then yes it does.
The scenario of two fighters approaching each other's melee range without prior arrangement is pretty ridiculous by any measure. Close quarter combat happens between soliders on the ground as the result of environmental obstacles i.e. corridors and walls. In an air or space battle such elements do not exist hence any competent pilots would be able to keep out of each other's hairs. Even in close quarter combat most of the times guns are preferred since the accuracy increases with decreasing distance. Your enemy might be able to dodge your sword at close range but no way he can dodge a bullet to the chest. Only when its "too close" then you'll need to bring out your knife.
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Old 2007-10-25, 20:05   Link #427
brightman
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Originally Posted by brightman View Post
Ratings update

Gundam 00 dropped off the top ten this week, meaning that it got a 4.9% or below.

Posts on 2ch indicate that it is at 11th place, so the rating might be in the upper 4's.

Note that most of the doroku shows take a big hit at the third episode (FMA went from 5.9% to 5.6% to only 3.7%, but back to 6.8% in the week after) so this might not be indicative of what's to come...
BTW, the rating this week was 4.8%. Which wasn't that bad.

Current 00 average rating = 5.23%.
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Old 2007-10-25, 21:35   Link #428
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by kiramuro View Post
If a much faster moving beam or projectile can't hit a target then does it make even a bit of sense that a much slower moving melee weapon can successfully hit it?
Okay, let's take Epyon vs. Zero...

Epyon is coming down on Zero from above IIRC..., so let's say we have 3-space, aka a 3-axis field. The z-axis goes up and down, the Y axis goes left and right, and the X axis forward and back.

The Zero's buster rifle beam moves fast up the Z axis, but due to say recoil, it does not move all that quickly along X or Y axes, whereas a beam saber for instance moves rapidly along the X and Y axes and decently quickly along the Z axis, albeit not as fast.

This is why most gundam duels are decided in close range--it's not the speed but the maneuverability that counts, and the straight on beams despite being fast are more easy to dodge.
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Old 2007-10-25, 22:21   Link #429
kiramuro
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Okay, let's take Epyon vs. Zero...

Epyon is coming down on Zero from above IIRC..., so let's say we have 3-space, aka a 3-axis field. The z-axis goes up and down, the Y axis goes left and right, and the X axis forward and back.

The Zero's buster rifle beam moves fast up the Z axis, but due to say recoil, it does not move all that quickly along X or Y axes, whereas a beam saber for instance moves rapidly along the X and Y axes and decently quickly along the Z axis, albeit not as fast.

This is why most gundam duels are decided in close range--it's not the speed but the maneuverability that counts, and the straight on beams despite being fast are more easy to dodge.
As I already responded above. If your mobile suit can consistently dodge railgun projectiles and beams it shouldn't have any problem throw off any attempt to even get close for a melee encounter. There is always the problem of the closer you get the more unlikely you are able to dodge the incoming projectile or beam.

Just imagine a dog fight between (insert your favorite fighter her) at 500 mph. Neither one is going to get close enough to each other for melee combat at least not before one shoots down the other with the mounted vulcan canon. Because in the process of getting that close one or both will have a good chance of hitting with the gun.

Last edited by kiramuro; 2007-10-25 at 22:33.
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Old 2007-10-25, 23:29   Link #430
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Okay, let's take Epyon vs. Zero...

Epyon is coming down on Zero from above IIRC..., so let's say we have 3-space, aka a 3-axis field. The z-axis goes up and down, the Y axis goes left and right, and the X axis forward and back.

The Zero's buster rifle beam moves fast up the Z axis, but due to say recoil, it does not move all that quickly along X or Y axes, whereas a beam saber for instance moves rapidly along the X and Y axes and decently quickly along the Z axis, albeit not as fast.

This is why most gundam duels are decided in close range--it's not the speed but the maneuverability that counts, and the straight on beams despite being fast are more easy to dodge.


Gundam fights are decided at close range because it looks cooler that way. Any other explanation is gonna be debunked in about 4 seconds.

A) Beams go at the speed of light, or at least something a LOT faster than a swinging mecha arm. If you can dodge machine-gun bullets at close range then you'll deffinitely dodge a big slow-moving plasma sword. It's as simple as that.

B) You can't use any targetting aids with a swinging arm. No sticky reticule or lock on capability. Just a remote-controled arm, it's not even your own.

C) This whole debate is useless because Gundam makes Star Wars look like hard science fiction. A modern M1-Abrams is a lot better than any war machine you see in this show.
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Old 2007-10-25, 23:39   Link #431
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by kiramuro View Post
As I already responded above. If your mobile suit can consistently dodge railgun projectiles and beams it shouldn't have any problem throw off any attempt to even get close for a melee encounter. There is always the problem of the closer you get the more unlikely you are able to dodge the incoming projectile or beam.

Just imagine a dog fight between (insert your favorite fighter her) at 500 mph. Neither one is going to get close enough to each other for melee combat at least not before one shoots down the other with the mounted vulcan canon. Because in the process of getting that close one or both will have a good chance of hitting with the gun.
Except due to the nature of the beast, which entails high speed flight, heat-resistant metal, and light weight for high maneuverability and such, that all comes out of the skin of the aircraft, hence so much priority is put on evasive maneuvers and stealth, such that the fight never comes to that range.

In the case of gundam vs. gundam, the time spent lining up to take a shot can mean that you can eat a sword to the cockpit. I believe Zechs Merquise proved that time and again in Gundam Wing, and when it came down to it, not even the Wing Zero's almighty cannon of doom was a real tool in the fight, since it was so telegraphed.

The reason that fights don't come down to close range these days is that weapons home. Back in WW2 before we had homing missiles, fights were indeed decided at some extremely close ranges. But since gundams are not paper-thin, you need something than some small-time rockets and machine guns and even missiles to dent them, and a steady force such as that of a beam saber or sword is the fastest way to apply that destructive force. A huge gundam-destroying beam is simply far too telegraphed to work against the super-units that gundams are, and small-time ranged weaponry is simply too weak.

Though that sort of begs the question about Jedi Knights...why does everyone try to laser-blast them? Why don't they see how a jedi tries to deflect a bazooka shell? (Hint: it can't be done!)
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Old 2007-10-26, 00:07   Link #432
Anh_Minh
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Force push.

Also, lining up for a shot doesn't take any longer than swinging a sword, but you can start earlier. I don't see how a sword would be a superior weapon at any but the closest ranges... which they shouldn't be able to get to without mutual consent.
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Old 2007-10-26, 02:25   Link #433
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
A huge gundam-destroying beam is simply far too telegraphed to work against the super-units that gundams are, and small-time ranged weaponry is simply too weak.
Missles, bombs, bullets, and shells can scale upwards extremely well. There's (practically) no limit to how large or powerful they can become. The current 3 power blocs should already have weapons capable of blowing up a gundam and everything around it. It wouldn't be standard grunt equipment, but they should have something for use against heavily armored/fortified targets.
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Old 2007-10-26, 02:35   Link #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiramuro View Post
The scenario of two fighters approaching each other's melee range without prior arrangement is pretty ridiculous by any measure. Close quarter combat happens between soliders on the ground as the result of environmental obstacles i.e. corridors and walls. In an air or space battle such elements do not exist hence any competent pilots would be able to keep out of each other's hairs. Even in close quarter combat most of the times guns are preferred since the accuracy increases with decreasing distance. Your enemy might be able to dodge your sword at close range but no way he can dodge a bullet to the chest. Only when its "too close" then you'll need to bring out your knife.
Been watching Zeta recently... at least two or three times during the show, one pilot warns another to not fire at close range, because both suits will be destroyed.
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Old 2007-10-26, 02:55   Link #435
aohige
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Originally Posted by Ninjacat View Post
A) Beams go at the speed of light, or at least something a LOT faster than a swinging mecha arm. If you can dodge machine-gun bullets at close range then you'll deffinitely dodge a big slow-moving plasma sword. It's as simple as that.
Although I agree with your overall statement, this part is actually incorrect.

Beam weapons used in Gundam series are not "beams of light".
They are particle beams. Charged particle cannons to be exact.
They are particles accelerated and fired, and thus have actual mass behind it, instead of being a mass-less pure energy.

Meaning, they are nowhere NEAR as fast as light, and can be visible.

Accourding to wiki, this technology is actually "theoretically possible".
However, the amount of electric power needed to do such experiment is astronomical, and not realistic to do on earth.

Oh, and "makes Star Wars look hard science" is taking it a little too far, even for sarcasm.
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Old 2007-10-26, 07:24   Link #436
Morgun
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LOL Speaking of crazy tactics, I was just rewatching Ep 01 and I couldn't believe the AEU fighters started firing at Exia when it was right next to the space elevator. Yikes, somebody teach these grunts not to carelessly fire their weapons at the most expensive and vital structure in the history of the world.

I'm still holding out hope that one of the superpowers will lure the gundams to a remote area and then use their space forces to drop an asteroid on their heads. The closest thing we could get to a h-bomb in this nuclear-free future.
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Old 2007-10-26, 07:39   Link #437
Anh_Minh
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If the space elevator is tough enough to bear its own weight, small weapons like the Grunts' shouldn't destroy it. (I'm not saying it's ok to shoot at it, since even small repairs ought to be expensive, but being hit shouldn't be fatal.)

Also, why "nuclear-free"? Have they forgotten how?
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Old 2007-10-26, 08:16   Link #438
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Also, why "nuclear-free"? Have they forgotten how?
It is possible that there simply is a practical issue in powering EVERYTHING with nuclear powerplants. As a hypothetical example, the countries of the world might have realised that it was more effective to build the Space Elevator instead of mass-producing Nuclear powerplants.

After all, if the entire world was to be fuelled by nuclear power, the uranium reserves would be consumed at a ridiculous level. Currently we are not in danger of running out only because we use fossil fuels to run 85% of our powerplant output, with nuclear power taking up 6%.

Now, the plot device in 00 is Aeolia Schenberg. He supposedly came up with the majority of the Solar-power generation system technologies. What this means, is that Solar power then became a TRUE alternative means of supplying energy, rather than some sort of hypothetical possibility.

Mixing that with the practical issue of covering the planet with nuclear powerplants, and the possibility of these plants becoming obsolete when the fuel runs out and repeating the energy crisis all over again, the world's governments might put some serious thought into solving energy problems on a long-term basis.


As for nukes not being used in 00? I think they still exist. But the majority of the world who have the means of maintaining such weapons, also realise they have a big fat tower that would become retaliatory target. (Anyway, we have established that none of them are officially at war at the moment.)
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Old 2007-10-26, 08:22   Link #439
4Tran
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Originally Posted by aohige
Although I agree with your overall statement, this part is actually incorrect.

Beam weapons used in Gundam series are not "beams of light".
They are particle beams. Charged particle cannons to be exact.
They are particles accelerated and fired, and thus have actual mass behind it, instead of being a mass-less pure energy.

Meaning, they are nowhere NEAR as fast as light, and can be visible.
Not quite. From http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...g/roberds.html:
Quote:
The characteristic that distinguishes the particle-beam weapon from other directed energy weapons is the form of energy it propagates. While there are several operating concepts for particle-beam weapons, all such devices generate their destructive power by accelerating sufficient quantities of subatomic particles or atoms to velocities near the speed of light and focusing these particles into a very high-energy beam. The total energy within the beam is the aggregate energy of the rapidly moving particles, each particle having kinetic energy due to its own mass and motion.
While particle beams do have mass, they should also move at relativistic speeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Also, why "nuclear-free"? Have they forgotten how?
Apparently, the Earth no longer uses nuclear technologies for either industrial or military applications. I think that the implication is that this is a treaty-defined restriction, but that doesn't really make too much sense. Alternatively, the countries have not have developed fusion power yet, and they ran out of uranium for fission.
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Old 2007-10-26, 08:41   Link #440
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I wasn't disputing that there might be reasons not to use nuclear power. Just the assumption they don't have a stash of nukes, or the means to make some if need be.
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