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Old 2007-10-27, 09:20   Link #121
CrowKenobi
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Interesting conversation here about whether Kyou is a tsundere or not at this point of the anime... personally I think that Kyou isn't a tsundere until for whatever reason, she starts to be infatuated with Tomoya. And since (in her mind) someone as "tough" as her shouldn't be in love with someone such as him, she uses her tsun side to hide that fact (and quite possibly overdoing it as well), whle her dere side shows up in longing looks she give him when she thinks no one else is watching. (and heaven help Tomoya if Kyou gets up enough nerve to show her dere side to him! )

That clear enough?

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Old 2007-10-27, 13:15   Link #122
dgreater1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi
Interesting conversation here about whether Kyou is a tsundere or not at this point of the anime... personally I think that Kyou isn't a tsundere until for whatever reason, she starts to be infatuated with Tomoya. And since (in her mind) someone as "tough" as her shouldn't be in love with someone such as him, she uses her tsun side to hide that fact (and quite possibly overdoing it as well), whle her dere side shows up in longing looks she give him when she thinks no one else is watching. (and heaven help Tomoya if Kyou gets up enough nerve to show her dere side to him! )

That clear enough?
Clear enough, although, you're defining the traditional type tsundere and Kyou in the Anime would definitely not be in the list of traditional type because:

#1 She started tsuntsun but already friendly with Tomoya, so unless she becomes more deredere towards Tomoya, she wouldn't become a traditional type tsundere.
#2 Kyou hasn't acted tsuntsun towards Tomoya to hide that she's beginning to like him. (A very, very typical traditional tsundere reaction.)

If you're a traditional type (a Shiraishist like most say), you probably don't believe Kagami is a tsundere, or Asuna, or Anya, or Vita (MahouShoujoNanoha), or Tamaki Kousaka (ToHeart2), since traditional tsundere focuses more on character development rather than personality.

Fujibayashi Kyou falls on the modern type tsundere since she's a girl with a quick attitude. And when I meant quick attitude/hotheaded/anything-you-can-call-it, that's her normal behaviour. So in short, she's normally a tsuntsun, but deredere inside. If you weigh the deredere side to be more obvious, the character would fall to the side of being a typical moe and not a tsundere.

Read my simple explanation: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...6&postcount=86 I did say there that the tsuntsun side should be more obvious than the deredere, meaning... you're a tsuntsun in nature. Which is what I've been saying all this time. And nope, I didn't edit that so it would go to my side, look at the date it was last edited. 10/25/2007

That should be more clear
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Old 2007-10-27, 13:18   Link #123
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As far as the tsundere thing goes i have buried the hatchet for now, but i would like to remind people of this - don't forget to use spoiler tags when giving away information about characters from other shows. Not everyone has seen them.
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Old 2007-10-28, 04:32   Link #124
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
Fujibayashi Kyou falls on the modern type tsundere since she's a girl with a quick attitude. And when I meant quick attitude/hotheaded/anything-you-can-call-it, that's her normal behaviour. So in short, she's normally a tsuntsun, but deredere inside. If you weigh the deredere side to be more obvious, the character would fall to the side of being a typical moe and not a tsundere.

Read my simple explanation: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...6&postcount=86 I did say there that the tsuntsun side should be more obvious than the deredere, meaning... you're a tsuntsun in nature. Which is what I've been saying all this time. And nope, I didn't edit that so it would go to my side, look at the date it was last edited. 10/25/2007

That should be more clear

Actually, I still say you widened the definition of Modern Tsundere to the limits. This is the definition of Modern Tsundere, as far as I know:

Modern Tsundere: The new, evolved version of tsundere is a person whose emotions and feelings towards a person outwardly change frequently and may display many different personalities, sometimes to the point that can be considered as bipolar.


However, the type of behavior you consider as tsundere is closer to a tough-minded person who also has a soft side, which is NOT started by having feelings for a person.

I'll state this again: Tsundere, whatever your standards, starts BECAUSE you have feelings fopr someone, whether it be love of deep friendship.
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Old 2007-10-28, 11:33   Link #125
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Why is the definition of tsundere such a heated topic? lol
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Old 2007-10-28, 13:53   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocity7 View Post
Why is the definition of tsundere such a heated topic? lol
I also want to know why. I'm already exhausted from this debate. I think there's just no middle ground, a person either feels a character is tsundere or she is not.
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Old 2007-10-28, 17:25   Link #127
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Because there is a tendency to class Kyou as a tsundere for her behaviour alone?
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Old 2007-10-28, 18:40   Link #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocity7 View Post
Why is the definition of tsundere such a heated topic? lol
Probably because the definition of tsundere has changed (is changing?) over the years...

Besides.. there's always a group of people that will fall in love with a character due to her 'tsundere'ness, while there will be people that will hate a character once the word tsundere appears in the description.

Either that... or it's that anime fans are obsessed with the truth, and seek nothing more than to define the grey areas of the tsundere debate....

***
Anyways, back to Kyou....

(Maybe we should drop the tsundere issue, and hope for her story to begin soon.)

So.... anyone have any guess as to how Kyou's story will play out here?

Last edited by eMpTy265; 2007-10-28 at 22:17. Reason: I think I should stay away from the tsundere discussion :p
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Old 2007-10-28, 18:59   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kct
Because there is a tendency to class Kyou as a tsundere for her behaviour alone?
Exactly! Remove the tendency part though because is already proven that despite her behaviour, she still acts "girly"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae
-Actually, I still say you widened the definition of Modern Tsundere to the limits.
-However, the type of behavior you consider as tsundere is closer to a tough-minded person who also has a soft side, which is NOT started by having feelings for a person.
Erm, like I said... I didn't widen the definition at all, you're mixing it with other definition and removing the most important definition the word tsuntsun has. In the Japanese wiki, tsundere means a "namaiki" (multiple description) person but will suddenly turn "oshiorashii (girly side)" (another multi desc. word) by chance (it's by chance so you don't always need to act it towards the same thing or person, what matters is as long as the character shows it).
And tough-minded isn't exactly the right word to describe tsuntsun, a tough-minded person is a strong-willed person, a tsuntsun (quick-temper/hotheaded) person can be tough-minded and weak-minded as well.

Just imagine a girl who gets mad most of the time... and there you have, a tsuntsun person.

Taken from Japanese tsundere wiki:

ツンツンデレ
ツンの部分が非常に多く、なかなかデレの部分が見れないこと。
Tsuntsun-Dere
Their Tsun side is extraordinarily high, you won't see their "dere" side that much.

Kyou is a tsuntsun-dere type because her tsuntsun side is what most of us see and we don't see her deredere side as much.

デレツン
普段はデレ状態だが、一定の条件下になるとツン状態になる(ツンデレの正反対)。
Dere-Tsun:
Usually "dere" but when certain condition arises, they become "tsun" (Exact oposite of Tsundere)

The bipolar you speak of is the exact opposite of tsundere and it means "dere-tsun." If you'll remember Eps. 04 of CLANNAD, Tomoyo displayed this kind of behaviour just once
Spoiler:

But as you can see, I don't consider bipolars to be tsundere. Hmm... wait... scratch that... for some reason, it's making me think Hiiragi Kagami is a bipolar tsundere... because she's normally normal, but would always suddenly go tsuntsun because of Konata XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by eMpTy265
Probably because the definition of tsundere has changed (is changing?) over the years...
Pretty much true, but the only change I notice was from character development to becoming a behaviour/personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eMpTy265
Anyways, back to Kyou....

Has any of Kyou's actions so far in the anime been classified as tsun? (I think this is the key issue now right?)
Geh! You're playing with fire again. I won't answer that one because you already know my answer. Go figure out for yourself if her actions are being tsuntsun(being mad) or not XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle
I think there's just no middle ground, a person either feels a character is tsundere or she is not.
I guess we have no choice but to leave it to that kind of reasoning XD

Anyway, this would be my last reply to this tsundere thing, really! Throw some dictionaries at me if I still reply about it... Hahaha... I've wasted so much time on this but debating it with others was quite fun, honestly speaking. But the fact that we were victims of the endless fight betweem "she is" and "she is not" wouldn't disappear... :P
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Last edited by dgreater1; 2007-10-28 at 20:41.
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Old 2007-12-09, 12:01   Link #130
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man... kyou is a sweet girl once you pass her tsun tsun mode, but hey, her being tsundere is what makes her hot = )

Spoiler:


though her scenario might be cliche in romance... still i love it = ) long live kyou!
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Old 2007-12-13, 20:28   Link #131
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TOPIC CHANGE.

Now I begin to be worried about Kyou.

Spoiler for What goes later:

I gonna join a death fleet/squadron/whatever, and it's pretty obvious that a destroyer is not enough (as if a Scharnhorst-class battlecruiser is enough).
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Old 2007-12-13, 22:00   Link #132
Mai Kawasumi
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Kyou is great!

Spoiler for For episode 11:


BTW, I found weird that in Kanon I liked Mai, but in Clannad my fave is Kyou...

Mai = Tomoyo
Makoto = Kyou

Maybe I'm wrong...
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Old 2007-12-13, 22:23   Link #133
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Why the heck KyoAni likes to tease us? ;_;
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Old 2007-12-13, 22:29   Link #134
Kang Seung Jae
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My thoughts on Kyou:


Character-wise, she's great!

Story-wise, however..... it just doesn't fit Clannad.
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Old 2007-12-14, 04:55   Link #135
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I agree with Kang Seung Jae. As a character, Kyou is absolutely fantastic. However, I just don't really see her as lead character material...but as a more of a side character, I can't think of many better than her. That's why I'm firmly in support of Tomoya + Nagisa, but Kyou would still probably be one of my favorite characters outside of that.

Makes me pretty curious as to how they will handle Kyou's arc...it feels like there's already been a lot of buildup for it.
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Old 2007-12-14, 06:11   Link #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mai Kawasumi View Post
Mai = Tomoyo
Makoto = Kyou
I can understand the Mai/Tomoyo connection (capable fighters?), but where does Makoto/Kyou come from? I don't see any connection there, at all.

I can also tell you right now that the Mai/Tomoyo similarities stop there. The stories are completely different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrinus View Post
I agree with Kang Seung Jae. As a character, Kyou is absolutely fantastic. However, I just don't really see her as lead character material...but as a more of a side character, I can't think of many better than her. That's why I'm firmly in support of Tomoya + Nagisa, but Kyou would still probably be one of my favorite characters outside of that.

Makes me pretty curious as to how they will handle Kyou's arc...it feels like there's already been a lot of buildup for it.
I completely agree, Kyou has a really good dynamic with Tomoya as a comedy pair.

There's a lot more than buildup, the stage is practically set for Kyou's arc. The references, although only between the twins, are numerous. Especially at ep 11 where Kyou pretty much tells Tomoya enough for him to figure it out. From what he overhear about "rivals in love" at the end and Kyou's words at the bus station, all we need is the trigger and it's Kyou's arc.
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Old 2007-12-14, 09:12   Link #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mai Kawasumi View Post

BTW, I found weird that in Kanon I liked Mai, but in Clannad my fave is Kyou...

Mai = Tomoyo
Makoto = Kyou

Maybe I'm wrong...
I thought it was more like:

Mai = Kotomi
Makoto = Fuko
Kyou = ???
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Old 2007-12-14, 09:21   Link #138
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Kyou = Kagami
Tomoya = Konata

I mean look at them comedic duo
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Old 2007-12-14, 09:30   Link #139
tripperazn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElementSun View Post
I thought it was more like:

Mai = Kotomi
Makoto = Fuko
Kyou = ???
If I actually HAD to draw parallels between Clannad and Kanon, those would be mine as well. But damn, trying to think about the similarities really makes you appreciate just how different the elements of the two stories are. I remember a lot of comparison between Kanon and Clannad when the series first started, but those died down pretty quick.
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Old 2007-12-15, 06:05   Link #140
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In my opinion, as far as we have seen up to ep. 11, Kyou seems to have had most diverse portrayal of herself. Her range of emotions and reactions far surpasses all other characters at this moment(Please consider that range and depth does not mean same thing). If this keeps up, I might wave Kyou's banner instead of Tomoyo once I find something I really like.
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