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Old 2007-10-29, 11:18   Link #1
Caldron
Aria feels good....
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In my cube (it looked kinda rectangular though, he says)...
Age: 26
Suggestion again...

Since my post got deleted last time due to some misunderstanding, I'll post it again in a shorter version. (I would like to ask MODs not to delete it before asking me what I mean, thank you)

There is a section named Anime-related topics. Under that section, there are a lot of subsections which are too general to be under Anime related. This suggests, of course, the users to create new threads about general topics which are not considered to be anime related at all. I'm using the example of some threads in the music, games and fan creation sections. My suggestion was merely to move them to general section, or find another type of solution to this issue, which I think it's somewhat important.

Furthermore, (this point is a bit less important) some public groups shouldn't really be public at all, since anybody can be an IT supporter, yet they might mislead some users in their care when they post with a lot of naturality, thinking it's a very right thing to do. And the user believes them desperately.
Also, anybody can be a graphical designer, even if they just ain't got a clue about it at all, which I partially disagree. Graphical Designers should be a group with some people who actually have gained the trust of the users imho.


Lastly, the older series section is filled with some animes that ain't got much appeal, while some other animes which would actually please the users more, aren't allowed a section.

That is all, I hope I was clear this time.
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Old 2007-10-29, 11:49   Link #2
NightWish
…Nothing More
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I believe xris replied to you directly, after taking a stab at understanding your previous, somewhat confusing, post. As he suggested, we like the way the forum is arranged right now and don't see the level of generality allowed in those forums as a problem. Moving the forums would only make them more generic and being draconian about what is allowed would stifle conversation and creativity.

Second point: They were created public on purpose, they are a bit of fun more than anything. On a practical level: How would we know who is good at IT support any more than the next person? We don't ask them to take a test and wouldn't want to. We do not have the staff to manage closed groups so such groups would need to self-maintain. I've considered this and the staff have discussed it. Right now we don't see a good way of making it work on the forum. We don't want to encourage intra-forum factions and self-managed, closed, groups are likely to do just that, unless someone puts a lot of effort into organising them.

Your last point: that section is filled with series that did have popular following... They are old, so it is not surprising that some of the activity has decreased. We have no desire to provide forums for every old, supposedly popular, anime out there. We have our own way of determining what needs a forum and what doesn't... when the shows you are thinking about meet our criteria they will get a forum created. It is very unlikely that they ever will though given our forum and site's focus on new anime and fansubs.

My last point: if your thread was deleted and you're not sure why, you should PM the member of staff that sent you a warning. If you didn't get one, ask any of the moderators. Making the thread again isn't normally the best idea and libel to annoy the staff. I understand what you're asking this time, however, and don't mind trying to explain our position, so I have replied. Just don't get into the habit and don't be too surprised if this thread gets locked or removed later.
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Old 2007-10-29, 12:36   Link #3
Caldron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWish View Post
I believe xris replied to you directly, after taking a stab at understanding your previous, somewhat confusing, post. As he suggested, we like the way the forum is arranged right now and don't see the level of generality allowed in those forums as a problem.
If MODs didn't like, they would have changed already, so it's not my purpose to discuss this.
The suggestion is an alternative I am refering, not destroying your very own opinions (or rather, not imposing). There's nothing perfect, so you can always change it to better fit your likings, I believe that's what this section is based of. Pointing it out to be a problem is just dismissing the quality

Quote:
Moving the forums would only make them more generic and being draconian about what is allowed would stifle conversation and creativity.
But that's fine, as long as their fit their parent sections. What I said isn't supposed to "kill" the general conversations, but rather having them in the proper places.

Quote:
Second point: They were created public on purpose, they are a bit of fun more than anything. On a practical level: How would we know who is good at IT support any more than the next person? We don't ask them to take a test and wouldn't want to. We do not have the staff to manage closed groups so such groups would need to self-maintain. I've considered this and the staff have discussed it. Right now we don't see a good way of making it work on the forum. We don't want to encourage intra-forum factions and self-managed, closed, groups are likely to do just that, unless someone puts a lot of effort into organising them.
For the Graphical Designers group, you already have a competition for graphical designers. There is already a type of selection for something quite related.
Furthermore, as you mentioned quite correctly, such groups would need to self-maintain, and the IT group should be one. Would it be funny if someone actually pointed out a solution that would, even if it wasn't on purpose, make the user lose an important data? There has to be a minimum to the knowledge a person possesses, and that's not something which can be self-evaluated. Something as inviting (not just this, there can be more alternatives) would solve the problem, even though it could create some subjective judgement


Quote:
Your last point: that section is filled with series that did have popular following... They are old, so it is not surprising that some of the activity has decreased. We have no desire to provide forums for every old, supposedly popular, anime out there. We have our own way of determining what needs a forum and what doesn't... when the shows you are thinking about meet our criteria they will get a forum created. It is very unlikely that they ever will though given our forum and site's focus on new anime and fansubs.
This one is agreeable, but there are actually animes out there that a lot of people would probably give much more importance, and for the longer future. Are you actually interested in that? Or would it really have to meet a rigorous criteria?

Quote:
My last point: if your thread was deleted and you're not sure why, you should PM the member of staff that sent you a warning. If you didn't get one, ask any of the moderators. Making the thread again isn't normally the best idea and libel to annoy the staff. I understand what you're asking this time, however, and don't mind trying to explain our position, so I have replied. Just don't get into the habit and don't be too surprised if this thread gets locked or removed later.
Please don't worry about that, I believe it's gonna generate somewhat an offtopic discussion, which I'd like to avoid getting into. (Even though it's funny that I try to help, giving some suggestions and all I get is a deleted post and warning, lol)
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Last edited by Caldron; 2007-10-29 at 13:35.
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Old 2007-10-29, 14:33   Link #4
WanderingKnight
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I've gotta ask, I really don't get the point of the closed groups. We're all the same here, there's no IT overlord or something like that. Everything's part of a learning process, I myself have chosen the "IT Support" tag just because it shows that I have an interest in helping people in those kinds of things, not because I'm some kind of god at IT support. In fact, I've been dumbfounded by a lot of questions asked in the Tech Support forums, firstly because some areas don't interest me, and secondly because I'm still learning and it's more of a process for fun than for distinction. Having a closed IT support team would really break apart the forum community and would lead to senseless distinction and fragmentation, meaning, for example, that the opinion of people that don't like to have the "IT Support" tag (or that prefer to have another tag in its place, even when belonging to the group) won't be taken into account in the Tech Support forums.

Likewise, who can determine the status as a "Graphic Designer" or "Artist" of another person? Those are subjective fields, there's no rule that makes a person more "Graphic Designer" than another one. If you like having the tag, go ahead, what's the big deal?

I believe you're also making too strong of an assumption over how much influenced by the tags people feel. I was around by the time the tags were implemented, and as such, I really don't take them seriously, and I believe most people that were around by that time won't do so either. Sure, maybe some newcomers might be intimidated a bit by them... in that case, perhaps the way to solve that is to put some kind of notice in the registration form that states that public groups are not to be taken too seriously (perhaps there is, I wouldn't really know).
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Old 2007-10-29, 15:36   Link #5
DGM09
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Quote:
We're all the same here, there's no IT overlord or something like that.
Irrelevant remark.

Quote:
Everything's part of a learning process, I myself have chosen the "IT Support" tag just because it shows that I have an interest in helping people in those kinds of things, not because I'm some kind of god at IT support. In fact, I've been dumbfounded by a lot of questions asked in the Tech Support forums, firstly because some areas don't interest me, and secondly because I'm still learning and it's more of a process for fun than for distinction.
I agree with Caldron on this matter, since I've witnessed several situations at the Tech Support board.
You're missing the relevant point here.
The problem is not "not being an IT God". The problem is how and when the advice is given.
The problem is not misunderstanding the subject involved. The problem is the action taken if the user is not certain of the solution.

Allow me to be a complete ass and post one of your answers as an example.
I vividly recall a certain thread in which a user could not boot into Windows, even through safe mode. After seeing several pieces of advice from you, I can guarantee you are NOT the best person when it comes to Windows Operative Systems. This person couldn't boot into Windows and you, do mind I'm not saying helping is wrong, but, when you're not sure (which is what is relevant here) it'd be best to just leave it to those who know, gave the suggestion of installing Linux merely to fix a boot problem on Windows. I was flabbergasted by this, honestly. I never thought I'd see something as this. At any rate, what matters is there was an extremely simple solution to the problem and you gave one of the worst pieces advice possible towards it. I'm not saying you're not knowledgeable when it comes to Linux, but I can clearly say you're not when it comes to Windows. You helped and kept insisting to try your method and ignored the Repair console solution until the end.
Luckily, this is not an irreversible problem, but imagine it were. This is why the IT Support group certainly cannot be made up of people who merely have an interest in computers. Or ,at least, just don't give advice on it if you have no experience with it.
What also regularly happens is that the users give their advice as if they were completely, 100% sure of the solution and outcome. This makes the person with the questions think they know what they're talking about and, as such, commit a mistake by trusting them.

Quote:
I believe you're also making too strong of an assumption over how much influenced by the tags people feel.
Oh and I wonder why? Heck, what does IT Support mean? Seriously, I don't even think I need to go further with this.

While I'm at it, I also do agree with the way the Music section is handled.
What is the point of splitting a forum into several categories if you're going to end up mixing them?
There's a Music Section in the Anime-related section. The problem lies with the content in it. By putting it into the Anime-related section, you mean it has some sort of connection with Anime. So far so good, because, after all, it has Anime music in it. Now, the problem arises when you allow other songs to go into it. By allowing more genres in it, you're generalizing the content. While it is Anime-related, it is no longer ONLY Anime. And the more you add to it, the more generalizing it becomes. It is only obvious that it falls into the General Section. Meaning, you either make a Music board for the Anime-related section (and keep it ONLY Anime-related) and one for the General section, or you make one for General and delete the Anime one. It's pointless to argue against this, honestly. If you're allowing content outside the boundaries of a board, it is no longer of that type only. What I find funny is that you're arguing against this when you've done it for another thing: The Tech Support board and the Playback one. You did the exact opposite there and, to be honest, the Tech Support one is commonly filled with playback problems even though there's a Playback board.
Hope this allows for some thought and enlightenment.
(No puns intended...at all).

Last edited by DGM09; 2007-10-29 at 15:50.
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Old 2007-10-29, 16:20   Link #6
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGM09 View Post
The problem is not "not being an IT God". The problem is how and when the advice is given.
The problem is not misunderstanding the subject involved. The problem is the action taken if the user is not certain of the solution.

Allow me to be a complete ass and post one of your answers as an example. ...
Your gripe about WanderingKnight's recommending Linux for a Windows problem, despite taking up a good chunk of your post, is between you and him. It's quite possible that you misunderstood part of his intention/solution - I've recommended one particular user who keeps coming back with spyware and virus problems to consider migrating to Linux, myself. However, your criticism against him could apply to very many people trying to help. There were a number of times when I posted to negate someone else's post, because it was ineffective/harmful advice (summer of 2005, the Dagger chronicles - the guy told every single Windows user to format and reinstall as a fix to their problem before he was banned, for a different reason). We're not getting paid to do this, and as WK pointed out, many of us learn as we go through with this. I think it's a great thing, and a big reason why I keep coming back to this community.

The fear that was stated was that the tag of "IT Support" generates a sense of credibility when an individual may or may not have it. While it's possible that an individual may weigh the advice of someone with the "IT Support" tag more heavily than someone without it, let me tell you something: a lot of these people are desperate, and have no idea what they're doing. They take anyone and everyone's advice, assuming that the advice has been written in an even relatively authoritative-sounding and understandable form.

Quote:
Oh and I wonder why? Heck, what does IT Support mean? Seriously, I don't even think I need to go further with this.
It means just that: IT Support. It doesn't mean "I know everything about IT." Since I identify myself as support, it indicates that I'm interested in that section of the forum, and spend most of my time there. Similarly, I presume that the "graphics designer" people are mostly spending their time in the Fan Creations area, and the "Fansubber" people in the Fansubbing area. I am aware that people have their own interpretations about what the tags mean, but I wanted to present my own take on it, since up until now the argument has been about how seriously people consider the tags.

Quote:
What I find funny is that you're arguing against this when you've done it for another thing: The Tech Support board and the Playback one. You did the exact opposite there and, to be honest, the Tech Support one is commonly filled with playback problems even though there's a Playback board.
The playback forum is a specialized part of the Tech Support board. Occasionally people mix the two up - same with the downloading section. The downloading section is filled with questions over routers and BitTorrent. Playback is frequently filled with questions about media players and codecs. Tech support tends to be very general stuff. The specialization makes sense - we're an anime forum catering towards BitTorrent downloads. If we specialized in IRC, the Download forum would probably be filled mostly with that instead.

Excuse me if I misunderstood, but I believe your point is that it's unorganized. I disagree. Just go to the Playback forum and then go to the Tech support forum, and browse the titles. The Playback forum's posts seem rather homogenous to me. I do my part about reporting threads that should be moved, and it seems that other users do, as well.
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Old 2007-10-29, 16:48   Link #7
DGM09
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Quote:
Your gripe about WanderingKnight's recommending Linux for a Windows problem, despite taking up a good chunk of your post, is between you and him.
Well, kudos to you for not realizing the purpose of my example.

Quote:
It's quite possible that you misunderstood part of his intention/solution - I've recommended one particular user who keeps coming back with spyware and virus problems to consider migrating to Linux, myself.
Oh, is it? Oh, thankfully you enlighten me on this matter.
I did not. Take a look for yourself:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=56155

Now allow me to ignore the rest of that yada-yada as it really is rather irrelevant since I didn't misunderstand.

Quote:
We're not getting paid to do this, and as WK pointed out, many of us learn as we go through with this. I think it's a great thing, and a big reason why I keep coming back to this community.
Well, that's all nice and dandy. What does it matter if you're not getting paid? Nothing at all. It doesn't matter if you get paid or not. Sure you're helping and that's "the way to go" and all that, but if you're giving wrong information, is it really that helpful? No. While most solutions are harmless, harmful ones can also show up.
You seem to not want to understand this at all, really.

Quote:
The fear that was stated was that the tag of "IT Support" generates a sense of credibility when an individual may or may not have it. While it's possible that an individual may weigh the advice of someone with the "IT Support" tag more heavily than someone without it, let me tell you something: a lot of these people are desperate, and have no idea what they're doing. They take anyone and everyone's advice, assuming that the advice has been written in an even relatively authoritative-sounding and understandable form.
The more you help me with those words, actually. If they're that desperate, they'll undoubtedly try unspecialized, ironically-wrong solutions that are given by anyone. Those solutions may or may not be harmful to the user's PC. The point is that they MAY be, though.
Imagine you're a person who has no clue about PCs and posts here, "desperate".
Let's pick the hilarious solution I found the other day:
Someone suggested formatting the HDD simply because the CPU was overheating. Supposedly, a new install of the Operative System would fix it. Now, this is quite serious as it results in data loss. Is this the kind of help you want to receive, even though it's free?

Quote:
It means jus that: IT Support. It doesn't mean "I know everything about IT." Since I identify myself as support, it indicates that I'm interested in that section of the forum, and spend most of my time there.
And you still keep pressing the same argument on. If you like PCs, put it into your hobbies/interests list on your profile. By saying you're part of the IT Support group, i.e. provide IT Support, you're saying you do know what you're talking about (or at least should).

Quote:
Similarly, I presume that the "graphics designer" people are mostly spending their time in the Fan Creations area, and the "Fansubber" people in the Fansubbing area. I am aware that people have their own interpretations about what the tags mean, but I wanted to present my own take on it, since up until now the argument has been about how seriously people consider the tags.
And this is a whole different matter. The Graphics Designer group is entirely different from the IT Support one. Are you providing any sort of help by being a Graphics Designer? Are you giving advice that may severely affect your important data? No. Bad analogy.

Quote:
The playback forum is a specialized part of the Tech Support board.
If it is part of the Tech Support board, why is it on the same level as it? If anything, it should be inside the Tech Support board, then.

Quote:
Tech support tends to be very general stuff. The specialization makes sense - we're an anime forum catering towards BitTorrent downloads. If we specialized in IRC, the Download forum would probably be filled mostly with that instead.
Of course it makes sense and that's precisely what I'm getting at. You're doing it for the Tech Support/Playback , but NOT for the Music. That is exactly what I'm going on about.

Quote:
Just go to the Playback forum and then go to the Tech support forum, and browse the titles. The Playback forum's posts seem rather homogenous to me.
The Playback one has the correct content. The Tech Support, however, sometimes contains Playback problems, even though there's a more specific place to ask. The Playback board is organized. The Tech Support one is, to a certain degree.
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Old 2007-10-29, 17:27   Link #8
Ledgem
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You're quite belligerent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGM09 View Post
Well, that's all nice and dandy. What does it matter if you're not getting paid?
Here's where it matters:

Quote:
...but if you're giving wrong information, is it really that helpful? No.
It means that we're giving you our time and what knowledge we do have, and if you don't like it, you can go and cry on the tech support phone lines and see what a difference in quality you'll get. I'm partially sarcastic, but I'm sure you saw that.

Quote:
While most solutions are harmless, harmful ones can also show up.
You seem to not want to understand this at all, really.
I stated it. I'm aware of it. The phrase "take it with a grain of salt" applies to the internet in general, yet the less experienced are not aware of it. You seem to be placing that blame on us, which is unjust.

Quote:
The more you help me with those words, actually. If they're that desperate, they'll undoubtedly try unspecialized, ironically-wrong solutions that are given by anyone. Those solutions may or may not be harmful to the user's PC. The point is that they MAY be, though.
My point was that you're complaining that there are users who you do not deem fit to carry the "IT Support" tag. Part of the reason for the complaint, never fully repeated by you but issued by Caldron, was that users seeking help would see that a person recommending advice had the "IT Support" tag. They would take the advice of that person, based on the tag alone. As I stated, these people take anyone's advice - they don't reject advice just because a person doesn't have an "IT Support" tag.

Your complaint seems to be more with the fact that there's a tech support forum, and occasionally misinformation makes its way there. News flash: this is the internet, it happens. Get over it. But if you didn't catch my sarcasm about calling up official tech support, let me give you a real-life example about paid tech support to show you that it exists everywhere: a friend of mine had a dying HD. I told her it was dying. It died. She called IT support. This is our paid, university IT staff. They asked her if she downloaded MP3s. Yes, she did. According to IT, downloading MP3s can kill your hard drive. Start crying, please.

Quote:
Someone suggested formatting the HDD simply because the CPU was overheating. Supposedly, a new install of the Operative System would fix it. Now, this is quite serious as it results in data loss. Is this the kind of help you want to receive, even though it's free?
You're relatively new here, so I won't hold it against you, but the tech support people aren't gods and this is how the process works. It's trial-and-error. People give very vague information. Computers are also complicated enough - if you have the insight to see what a problem is in very few posts, then you have insight and it'd be great if you'd join us in posting solutions. Otherwise, surely you know that a symptom can be caused by a number of problems. Some of us are better than others at narrowing it down, but otherwise, this is how it works. Solutions are recommended, and the user will have to potentially sort through some of them before the correct one is used.

Quote:
And you still keep pressing the same argument on. If you like PCs, put it into your hobbies/interests list on your profile. By saying you're part of the IT Support group, i.e. provide IT Support, you're saying you do know what you're talking about (or at least should).
I think you're just taking the tags too seriously. It also seems like you have complaints that the solutions recommended to fixes aren't flawless. I bring up the "we're not getting paid for this" because here in America, the standard is that if you're getting something for free, you put up or shut up. Pay us and you can complain that we're doing what you believe to be a shoddy job. Otherwise, be gracious that we're even reading and giving our time.

Quote:
And this is a whole different matter. The Graphics Designer group is entirely different from the IT Support one. Are you providing any sort of help by being a Graphics Designer? Are you giving advice that may severely affect your important data? No. Bad analogy.
Oh, but what if someone is going to enter an art show, or some other big event for them, and they take the advice of someone they believe to be a great artist? Oh no! Disaster! Look, I understand your point here, but you're basing too much on the tags. Your real complaint isn't the tags, it's that the tech support forum exists at all and that those of us trying to help aren't able to do so at a godly level that not even a professional would be capable of.

Forum organization - apparently I don't understand what you're getting at with the music thing, so we'll just leave it. I think it's fine. The mods probably do too, as it's been this way for a long time.
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Old 2007-10-29, 18:07   Link #9
DGM09
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Belligerent? Moi? Please.

Quote:
It means that we're giving you our time and what knowledge we do have, and if you don't like it, you can go and cry on the tech support phone lines and see what a difference in quality you'll get. I'm partially sarcastic, but I'm sure you saw that.
No help is better than harmful help.

Quote:
You seem to be placing that blame on us, which is unjust.
If you can simply avoid trying to answer subjects you're not comfortable with/not totally sure of and you still choose to answer, then obviously the person at fault is the one giving the wrong solution. Who should it be? The person who tried asking for an answer on an apparently knowledgeable place?
</logic>
Or mayhap the tech support phone lines the person didn't call! Yeah, we can blame them!

Quote:
Part of the reason for the complaint, never fully repeated by you but issued by Caldron, was that users seeking help would see that a person recommending advice had the "IT Support" tag.
Obviously if they see a person who's part of the IT Support group, they'll put more credit on them since, you know, they should be the least knowledgeable since they are part of a SUPPORT group (Sorry I ran out of highlight effects).

Quote:
They would take the advice of that person, based on the tag alone. As I stated, these people take anyone's advice - they don't reject advice just because a person doesn't have an "IT Support" tag.
Why, certainly. They won't reject other people's advices and, in fact, part of why that happens is due to how the users express their advice. They talk like your so-called "IT Gods", as if they were positively, absolutely sure of everything.

Quote:
Your complaint seems to be more with the fact that there's a tech support forum, and occasionally misinformation makes its way there.
Oh, it seems that? All I'm saying is that people who are not sure of the solution shouldn't try to pull out advice out of every possible hole (not those holes).

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News flash: this is the internet, it happens. Get over it.
Is it cool being irrelevant?

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But if you didn't catch my sarcasm about calling up official tech support,
It wasn't that intense, really.

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I told her it was dying. It died. She called IT support. This is our paid, university IT staff. They asked her if she downloaded MP3s. Yes, she did. According to IT, downloading MP3s can kill your hard drive. Start crying, please.
Ah, you're trying to kill me with irrelevance, aren't you? They didn't even provide a solution that could be harmful. In fact, they just plain avoided the problem. Nice of you to share that heartwarming story of yours, but it doesn't matter at all to the subject at hand (I really don't get why you must insist on the payment thing, though.)

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You're relatively new here, so I won't hold it against you, but the tech support people aren't gods and this is how the process works.
Oh, wait. So I can't lurk without an account here? And you keep pushing the Gods thing. Honestly, drop it.

Quote:
People give very vague information. Computers are also complicated enough - if you have the insight to see what a problem is in very few posts, then you have insight and it'd be great if you'd join us in posting solutions.
This is not even a complicated matter and, if the user had followed what was told, he'd lose all the data on his HDD. This isn't even tech support, this is blind advice.
Yes, it would and I intend to do so...when I find a thread I can be helpful in and hasn't been answered yet.

Quote:
Solutions are recommended, and the user will have to potentially sort through some of them before the correct one is used.
Surely, but if one of them involves your PC imploding, then there's not much point in the following solutions.

Quote:
I think you're just taking the tags too seriously. It also seems like you have complaints that the solutions recommended to fixes aren't flawless. I bring up the "we're not getting paid for this" because here in America, the standard is that if you're getting something for free, you put up or shut up. Pay us and you can complain that we're doing what you believe to be a shoddy job. Otherwise, be gracious that we're even reading and giving our time.
(AGAIN) I'm not saying they should be flawless. Allow me to give you an example:
"Try this and your PC should be fixed".
"You could try this as it might solve your problem. I'm not totally sure so, you could wait for another suggestion."

See the difference? Wowzers.

Ah, so the money issue is due to that? Well, newsflash to you, Captain America, there are other places in the world!

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Oh, but what if someone is going to enter an art show, or some other big event for them, and they take the advice of someone they believe to be a great artist? Oh no! Disaster!
*ignores*

Quote:
Look, I understand your point here, but you're basing too much on the tags. Your real complaint isn't the tags, it's that the tech support forum exists at all and that those of us trying to help aren't able to do so at a godly level that not even a professional would be capable of.
No. Re-read.

Quote:
Forum organization - apparently I don't understand what you're getting at with the music thing, so we'll just leave it. I think it's fine. The mods probably do too, as it's been this way for a long time.
Yeah, let's leave it because you don't understand what I'm getting at.
Thankfully, our ancestors didn't drop things because they didn't initially understand or we'd be having hardware issues with rocks.

Last edited by DGM09; 2007-10-29 at 18:29.
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Old 2007-10-29, 19:03   Link #10
Caldron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
We're all the same here, there's no IT overlord or something like that. Everything's part of a learning process, I myself have chosen the "IT Support" tag just because it shows that I have an interest in helping people in those kinds of things, not because I'm some kind of god at IT support. In fact, I've been dumbfounded by a lot of questions asked in the Tech Support forums, firstly because some areas don't interest me, and secondly because I'm still learning and it's more of a process for fun than for distinction. Having a closed IT support team would really break apart the forum community and would lead to senseless distinction and fragmentation, meaning, for example, that the opinion of people that don't like to have the "IT Support" tag (or that prefer to have another tag in its place, even when belonging to the group) won't be taken into account in the Tech Support forums.
I'm sorry to say this, but if you want to learn, don't claim the IT support tag, which is something which "precisely" misleads people

Quote:
Likewise, who can determine the status as a "Graphic Designer" or "Artist" of another person? Those are subjective fields, there's no rule that makes a person more "Graphic Designer" than another one. If you like having the tag, go ahead, what's the big deal?
lol

Quote:
I believe you're also making too strong of an assumption over how much influenced by the tags people feel. I was around by the time the tags were implemented, and as such, I really don't take them seriously, and I believe most people that were around by that time won't do so either. Sure, maybe some newcomers might be intimidated a bit by them... in that case, perhaps the way to solve that is to put some kind of notice in the registration form that states that public groups are not to be taken too seriously (perhaps there is, I wouldn't really know).
Too strong you say. Well, usually newcoming people ignore the fact anyone can join those groups, and believe blindly in your, IT excelencies, words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Your gripe about WanderingKnight's recommending Linux for a Windows problem, despite taking up a good chunk of your post, is between you and him.
Indeed, it's not between us and WK, but rather between WK and WK. He brought himself up to the discussion to defend himself (against an invisible beam of light, since there was no purpose in this thread to do so), so it's perfectly normal that his situations would just be part of the issue now.

Quote:
We're not getting paid to do this, and as WK pointed out, many of us learn as we go through with this. I think it's a great thing, and a big reason why I keep coming back to this community.
Precisely, you're not getting paid for this. Well, I don't need an IT support tag to help people and gather knowledge. It's not like you can't help if you don't have that tag, so your affirmation is quite off here.

Quote:
It means just that: IT Support. It doesn't mean "I know everything about IT." Since I identify myself as support, it indicates that I'm interested in that section of the forum, and spend most of my time there. Similarly, I presume that the "graphics designer" people are mostly spending their time in the Fan Creations area
So I can claim to be a Graphical Designer if I post a lot of criticism the Fan Creation section, even if I don't have a clue about it? Of course not, even though I can join it, I don't do it because I don't design anything related with anime. Nor I post my works in the Fan Creation section because they aren't anime-related at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
You're quite belligerent.
This is something I'd rather ignore... No words can possibly describe such dare.

Quote:
It means that we're giving you our time and what knowledge we do have, and if you don't like it, you can go and cry on the tech support phone lines and see what a difference in quality you'll get.
If there's no difference, why do you even bother helping people? I hope you agree that if you could give a more successful advice, you would, so this sentence makes no sense.

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You seem to be placing that blame on us, which is unjust.
If you find such an attack so accurate, then you know you did something wrong...?

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They would take the advice of that person, based on the tag alone. As I stated, these people take anyone's advice - they don't reject advice just because a person doesn't have an "IT Support" tag.
But they surely prioritise those who have. Should we all get an IT Support tag to dissolve this matter?

PS: I'm not complainning, I'm suggesting

Quote:
She called IT support. This is our paid, university IT staff. They asked her if she downloaded MP3s. Yes, she did. According to IT, downloading MP3s can kill your hard drive. Start crying, please.
You shouldn't bring such mediocrity to your arguments...

Quote:
It's trial-and-error. People give very vague information. Computers are also complicated enough
Then you do realize it might be harmful. Would it be funny if your processor blowed up while you're waitting for windows to reinstall because someone gave you that advice? There's no trial and error for things that cost so much and are fragille

Quote:
Solutions are recommended, and the user will have to potentially sort through some of them before the correct one is used.
You can't hide the fact that they might be desperate, you'll need to kindly be aware of such things.

Quote:
Look, I understand your point here, but you're basing too much on the tags. Your real complaint isn't the tags, it's that the tech support forum exists at all and that those of us trying to help aren't able to do so at a godly level that not even a professional would be capable of.
While I can extract some rightness in this sentence, I cannot ignore that you claim generality based on exceptions.

Quote:
Forum organization - apparently I don't understand what you're getting at with the music thing, so we'll just leave it. I think it's fine. The mods probably do too, as it's been this way for a long time.
As I said I wasn't imposing, I'm just suggesting. Why do you improve your pc or your operative system for instance? Is it because you aren't happy with it? Or because you could feel a little better if you changed? This is a rethorical question, since the answer is quite obvious.
I'll explain it. The problem is that there is a section named Anime-related topics, and a subsection is called Music. But since Music is a very general thing, it "invites" users to create threads about general bands, not just anime related, while allowing anime related threads to die easily. Nevertheless, I can accept your opinion, and the MODs opinions as well. Here they have the dynamic of the forum, and that's why people here suggest, rather than demand...
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Old 2007-10-29, 21:51   Link #11
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Okay, I'm really pissed about how this turned into a personal attack, but I want to answer in the calmest manner possible, because I'm not interested in a personal flamefest. I just want to show the other side of the deal.

The issue where that user who couldn't boot his system, where I recommended mounting his hard drive with Linux, stemmed from his statement that the Windows repair console "asked for a password". In fact, the first thing I recommended was for him to use the damn recovery console, since I knew (not by personal experience) that it could be solved that way. I really didn't understand what he meant for "asked for a password", but I interpreted it literally, since in my view, a password is a password. Obviously, as was understood after the whole incident ended, his interpretation of what a password is (or of what the recovery console was asking) is quite different from mine. I surely couldn't understand why the thing was asking for a "password", so in the meantime, since the guy looked really desperate, I offered the best advice I could give him. And you know what? That advice had absolutely nothing to do with my tag, and if the tag wouldn't have existed, I would have given the advice anyways, because I was interested in solving his problem, seeing that none of the Windows "overlords" were there to help him at the time (he and I were the only ones posting in the thread for quite a few hours). Similarly, any desperate guy will trust anyone who speaks rather authoritatively on the matter, regardless of tag.

Quote:
And you still keep pressing the same argument on. If you like PCs, put it into your hobbies/interests list on your profile. By saying you're part of the IT Support group, i.e. provide IT Support, you're saying you do know what you're talking about (or at least should).
What? I'm not fucking paid to help them, we have Microsoft support for that. I'm trying to solve the problems to the best of my limited knowledge, and if you don't think what I'm saying is right, the way is free for you to discredit me, regardless of tag, because if I say something wrong, tag or no tag, it's wrong, and if someone discredits me, it'll be evident enough, and I won't use the tag to claim superiority of judgment. And besides, I think we have enough people here to prevent any catastrophe from happening (I still haven't seen any catastrophe to date, even in critical situations were many points of view were taken over an issue), but if you think there might be, come and grab that precious "IT Support" tag you so adore and discredit the rest of us. Or don't, and discredit us without a tag, since I haven't seen anyone to date use a fucking tag to make his advice worth more.

Quote:
I'm sorry to say this, but if you want to learn, don't claim the IT support tag, which is something which "precisely" misleads people
Who the hell are you to judge who knows or knows not about IT? I'm no fucking IT pro, or I would be making money out of it, but that doesn't mean I don't take an interest on it and that I don't like trying to solve people's issues with IT. In fact, the reason why I chose "IT Support" is because I've solved many issues in the past, and I enjoy doing it. In fact, the damn tag is probably there mostly to show my "area of expertise", however limited that area might be.

Quote:
So I can claim to be a Graphical Designer if I post a lot of criticism the Fan Creation section, even if I don't have a clue about it? Of course not, even though I can join it, I don't do it because I don't design anything related with anime. Nor I post my works in the Fan Creation section because they aren't anime-related at all.
You can criticize all you want. I'm sure there are a lot of people who do so without having a tag. If you go and flame someone, expect either to be flamed back or banned, regardless of tag. But you can make a judgment all you want, because it's a damn free forum, and anyone can think whatever they want about a piece of graphic art (while keeping some obvious rules of courtesy). Of course, if you go and say something completely idiotic, expect to be corrected by any other user who knows a bit more, regardless of tag.

I think that what you're looking for here is to prevent newcomers from wrongly interpreting the "tag system", if such a thing exists. As I suggested, the best way to do this is either by a) suppressing the tag system, or b) putting a warning in the registration form stating that tags aren't to be taken authoritatively or seriously.
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Old 2007-10-29, 22:05   Link #12
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGM09 View Post
Belligerent? Moi? Please.
Yes, you are. I brought it up because I wanted you to be aware that your tone is extremely disrespectful and inflammatory. Since I'd like this topic to produce something positive, I'm politely requesting that you knock it off so as not to incite fighting.

Quote:
No help is better than harmful help.
And the idea of harmful help is completely subjective. If everyone were too terrified of offering what could be harmful help, you'd see barely any responses from members in that forum.

Quote:
Obviously if they see a person who's part of the IT Support group, they'll put more credit on them since, you know, they should be the least knowledgeable since they are part of a SUPPORT group (Sorry I ran out of highlight effects)
You certainly don't seem to think that, do you? Yet you're pushing the bias that people treat the tags so seriously. I gave you my view earlier to show that yes, there are other opinions about the tags - I highly doubt I'm the only person with a view similar to that.

Quote:
Ah, you're trying to kill me with irrelevance, aren't you? They didn't even provide a solution that could be harmful. In fact, they just plain avoided the problem. Nice of you to share that heartwarming story of yours, but it doesn't matter at all to the subject at hand (I really don't get why you must insist on the payment thing, though.)
The point of the story was to show you that ridiculous information makes it even outside of these forums.

Quote:
(AGAIN) I'm not saying they should be flawless. Allow me to give you an example:
"Try this and your PC should be fixed".
"You could try this as it might solve your problem. I'm not totally sure so, you could wait for another suggestion."

See the difference? Wowzers.
So now your issue isn't that harmful information is being given, but you want people to preface their posts by saying that something might go wrong? I'd expect that people would understand that when you're dealing with a community forum (that is, most likely not people who are professionals in this area). It's a valid concern, and if it'd really make you feel that much better, petition the moderators to put up a sticky claiming that people should take each bit of advice with care and caution. It's unlikely that you can change it so that people would preface all of their posts that way. Especially since for most of us who are pretty knowledgable about the internet, it's something that is known and understood.

Quote:
Ah, so the money issue is due to that? Well, newsflash to you, Captain America, there are other places in the world!
Why try to talk down to me? You continued to ask me why I was bringing up the "we're not getting paid" statement. I noted you were not from America, and decided to enlighten you on what it meant. Now you know. You're welcome for that explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caldron
Precisely, you're not getting paid for this. Well, I don't need an IT support tag to help people and gather knowledge. It's not like you can't help if you don't have that tag, so your affirmation is quite off here.
This statement reminds me of something I experienced in middle school. I had an online alias dealing with anime, and someone felt the need to test my anime knowledge to see "if I was deserving of that name." I took the challenge because at that age, that's the sort of thing I got into. In hindsight, it's ridiculous, and I bring it up because I want to make a connection between that and what you're saying about these tags. Someone saying I might not be worthy of my screen name is about the same thing here. You're not telling people to stop giving advice, you're telling them to not use the tag if they're not worthy of it.

I already explained that people take anyone's advice. You state that people would give priority to others who have the tag, but I completely disagree and would request proof. In my own experiences, suggestions from users lacking the tag have taken priority over my own suggestions, and yet the opposite has also held true. I can understand your thinking, but in practice, it does not seem to come into play as much as you think. And to make the groups exclusive would be far too much work.

I don't really understand why you didn't complain when we didn't have tags. Anyone could suggest anything then, and it'd all be at the same "priority level" according to you. If anyone can take on the "IT Support" tag, then it's not too different - if the majority of users who frequented that forum now have "IT Support" then it's the exact same thing as if they had nothing and were all posting in the threads.

Quote:
Then you do realize it might be harmful. Would it be funny if your processor blowed up while you're waitting for windows to reinstall because someone gave you that advice? There's no trial and error for things that cost so much and are fragille
Here's some free IT advice: your processor won't blow up. Here's some other advice from my excessive years doing IT on this forum: nobody that I have ever seen has had a catastrophic problem due to advice received. Nobody has ever come back angry because we gave them malicious advice that messed something up. Some people took advice that led them down a less efficient problem-solving path than they could have taken, but in general issues are resolved happily, or a solution is not found.

And that alone overrules anything you or DGM09 could complain about. In theory, yes, you're right, it's a big concern - for heaven's sake, someone's processor could blow up, we could set off a chain of explosions from users reading over this terrible advice. In practice, you're wrong. Can't think of a nicer way to say it than that. I should have just brought that up in the beginning and shut down this ridiculous desire for exclusive titles riding on the fear that people could damage their computers from bad advice from people in "IT Support." If you wish to continue your request for exclusive tags, feel free to do so, but not on theory-based, reality-disproven arguments you've formed over the "IT Support" tag.
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Old 2007-10-30, 01:27   Link #13
Solace
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Wandering Knight gave perfectly fine advice and even provided step by step help to diagnose and address that persons problem. Who really cares if he used a Linux disc or not...diagnosing hardware doesn't require a Windows Disc. Once the problem was discovered, he recommended a solution. I fail to see the "incorrect" advice that was given in this example.

I'm also failing to see the point of this topic beyond attacking Wandering Knight and complaining about how the forum is set up. If you are trying to hold a logical and level headed discussion in an attempt to change the staff's opinion you are failing miserably.
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Old 2007-10-30, 01:41   Link #14
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I already explained that people take anyone's advice. You state that people would give priority to others who have the tag, but I completely disagree and would request proof. In my own experiences, suggestions from users lacking the tag have taken priority over my own suggestions, and yet the opposite has also held true. I can understand your thinking, but in practice, it does not seem to come into play as much as you think. And to make the groups exclusive would be far too much work.
QFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I'm also failing to see the point of this topic beyond attacking Wandering Knight and complaining about how the forum is set up. If you are trying to hold a logical and level headed discussion in an attempt to change the staff's opinion you are failing miserably.
QFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caldron View Post
Since my post got deleted last time due to some misunderstanding, I'll post it again in a shorter version. (I would like to ask MODs not to delete it before asking me what I mean, thank you)
This one really bugs me. xris was too polite to have told you, but the reason that he deleted your original thread is that it read as if you were either stoned or drunk when you wrote it. It was just an endlessly rambling and incoherent piece of pointless prose without any apparent purpose. That's what he meant when he told you that he couldn't understand your point. Be glad it was deleted so that nobody else would read it. Nothing you've said since then has impressed me, but at least you've sobered up.

If you have a point to make, please try to do this without attacking our members. Also please try to clarify the need for the forum reorganization that seems to be important to you. I don't really get your problems. Most of the things you pick on are really quite minor and we just can't get worked up about such things since they don't hurt anybody or even make life more difficult for anyone.
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Old 2007-10-30, 03:16   Link #15
innominate
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For heaven's sake... it's just a tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caldron
For the Graphical Designers group, you already have a competition for graphical designers. There is already a type of selection for something quite related.
Just for the record... The graphics designing competitions do not determine any group memberships. The two are independent of each other.

I'd use the recent banner design competition as an example: you didn't need to be a graphics designer to participate, nor did the competition select members for the group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGM09
The Graphics Designer group is entirely different from the IT Support one. Are you providing any sort of help by being a Graphics Designer? Are you giving advice that may severely affect your important data? No. Bad analogy.
The thing is, yes, both the graphics designer group and the IT support group provide help to other members of the forum.

You say that people prioritize. Yeah, of course. This is why people go to the tech support forum for IT related help from the IT support group as a whole rather than posting their queries in the fan creations sections, and the converse is true as well. There is a certain amount of responsibility that comes with the group membership, which is exactly why not everybody is an artist or a graphics designer, or an IT support member.

I won't say that every member of the IT support group is completely reliable, but I can assure you that the IT support group as a whole is alot more IT savvy than the graphics designer group. And this is reliability. Will the IT support group give you malicious advice? I don't think so.

And after all this, if the only problem is with the important data... Well, this is a forum after all. I'm sure there are more than one persons with opinions to every matter. There would be more than one 'someone' giving the advice almost all the time. And if the problem is really that severe you would think twice over differing opinions and/or perhaps wait for more parties to come in.

If you are upset over malicious advice via pm; one to one conversations, I can understand. But the thing is that the forum is public. People request opinions from a group of people, not from individuals.

And it's exactly the same in the fan creations forum too. If we want a critique for our artwork, let's say, why do we post it up in the fan creations section, rather than pming any artist asking for opinions? Even I would feel uneasy with a single comment even if the commenter is super skilled or whatsoever.

-
I think the point of a group membership is somewhat like that of a friendship circle, sort of like a way to bond members of similar interests together. If we make it exclusive, it defeats this purpose I suppose.
-

On a final note, I don't see how threads about general bands in the music section is harmful.
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Old 2007-10-30, 05:59   Link #16
NightWish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I'm also failing to see the point of this topic beyond attacking Wandering Knight and complaining about how the forum is set up.
Indeed. I'm sorry, I should have know it would become a messy cyclic topic, with neither side doing anything to convince the other. I should not have left it open so long. Guess I didn't think letting Caldron make his point would be so... troublesome.

In any case: we're not moving the forums and we're not changing the way groups work. Caldron, your point has been made has been made, and disagreed with, so nothing more to be said: thread closed.
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