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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 9 8.41%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 20 18.69%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 34 31.78%
7 out of 10 : Good 24 22.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 9 8.41%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 8 7.48%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.93%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 1.87%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-10-28, 00:40   Link #41
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
On the contrary, the relationship issues play an integral part to the show, this show is more about how the main character's relationships develop when faced with challenges like Bal Masque and the likes. If you just want to see plain fighting and evil super villains then I suggest you go watch more shounen orientated shows like Naruto, cause you can't have Shana without the relationship issues, it's what makes Shana enjoyable.
What I want is more of balance, rather focusing on just the relationships I also want some action. I think that the first season did very well on balancing these two, but so far the second season has been focusing more on relationship. And looking at the preview it seems it will be like that next episode. Though I was disappointed it still was enjoyable to watch.
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Old 2007-10-28, 00:51   Link #42
Mentar
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I've got to agree with holyman282. In fact, the relationship dynamics are currently the PRIMARY driver of development, and I commend the guts of the creators to produce such an episode which perfectly captures what it's all about, "Melancholy Girls".

Seriously, what is wrong with you guys? Can't stomach one episode of unpleasant developments without moaning? I remember the complaints that the Tomogara tossed into the first three episodes were too much cannon fodder, and now, while a larger plot is slowly built up _without_ a brawl of the day, you're unhappy either? Guys, if you want action nonstop, for the love of god go watch Naruto or Bleach, this is not what Shana was ever about.

I for one am really happy about the pace, and about the skillful way they started to show the corrosive effect Konoe has on the Shana/Yoshida couple. Sounds like the development will continue and intensify next ep, should make for some good drama. Poor Wilhelmina though
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Old 2007-10-28, 01:16   Link #43
grey_moon
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Personally I don't like how Yuji is being depicted right now. Just because they keep stressing at each turn how observant and sharp he is. Why hasn't he realised that him being Konoe is pissing Shana off? I don't even think the usual excuse of he has no experience in the affairs of the heart can be used as Shana has been quite pointed in her attitude over Konoe.

There is only one reason I can see how it explains Yuji's actions and that actually coincides with what I believe Ike thinks and that is Yuji deep down inside just likes the attention of lots of pretty girls with no thought of the consequences of his actions on them.
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Old 2007-10-28, 01:31   Link #44
holyman282
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Personally I don't like how Yuji is being depicted right now. Just because they keep stressing at each turn how observant and sharp he is. Why hasn't he realised that him being Konoe is pissing Shana off? I don't even think the usual excuse of he has no experience in the affairs of the heart can be used as Shana has been quite pointed in her attitude over Konoe.
Yes Yuji is sharp and observant, but only at detecting tomogora and that in itself is a result of the training and the Reiejo mago buried within.. Detecting Tomogora and understanding a women's heart is completely different, you could even say they're worlds apart.
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Old 2007-10-28, 01:37   Link #45
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boring episode. Sigh hope next episode is better.
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Old 2007-10-28, 02:26   Link #46
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
Yes Yuji is sharp and observant, but only at detecting tomogora and that in itself is a result of the training and the Reiejo mago buried within.. Detecting Tomogora and understanding a women's heart is completely different, you could even say they're worlds apart.
I have to disagree with that, because a lot of the series one Yuji moments were things that surprised both Shana and Alastor. For example spotting the bell thing, and there were plenty of others which made me think gosh that boy is a bit bright.

In regards to the training Alastor has made comments that make me think that he didn't expect Yuji to pick up on things so quickly. The whole show is dotted with Yuji is brighter then the average bear scenes and comments. No way do I think you can attribute it to just the Reiji Maigo or to training which he hardly started in S1.
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Old 2007-10-28, 02:37   Link #47
Julius Firefocht
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There is only one reason I can see how it explains Yuji's actions and that actually coincides with what I believe Ike thinks and that is Yuji deep down inside just likes the attention of lots of pretty girls with no thought of the consequences of his actions on them.
No, Empress forbid that Shana II turns into Nice Boat II. That would be sad and would do no justice to the novels.
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Old 2007-10-28, 02:49   Link #48
holyman282
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I have to disagree with that, because a lot of the series one Yuji moments were things that surprised both Shana and Alastor. For example spotting the bell thing, and there were plenty of others which made me think gosh that boy is a bit bright.

In regards to the training Alastor has made comments that make me think that he didn't expect Yuji to pick up on things so quickly. The whole show is dotted with Yuji is brighter then the average bear scenes and comments. No way do I think you can attribute it to just the Reiji Maigo or to training which he hardly started in S1.
Off course I'm not saying he's a complete idiot... It's just that Shana has never ever told him she liked him.. All we get are little jealous comments, like "don't worry about her anymore" ect.. Which you really can't expect Yuji to act upon unless she outright tells him she's jealous. I think it partly Shana's fault that this situation has gotten out of hand, telling him not to hang out with certain girls yet not giving any justifiable reasons why.

He actually did show insight at the beginning of ep 1 of the second season, when he thought that shana might of confessed to him last season, but after Shana's ambiguous answer, he can't really be sure.

Like i said i'm not saying he's stupid and completely clueless towards a girl's feelings, but given the way Shana behaves, he isn't quite sure whether she likes him or not. I mean he knows Yoshida likes him but is never certain about Shana.
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Old 2007-10-28, 02:59   Link #49
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
Off course I'm not saying he's a complete idiot... It's just that Shana has never ever told him she liked him.. All we get are little jealous comments, like "don't worry about her anymore" ect.. Which you really can't expect Yuji to act upon unless she outright tells him she's jealous. I think it partly Shana's fault that this situation has gotten out of hand, telling him not to hang out with certain girls yet not giving any justifiable reasons why.

He actually did show insight at the beginning of ep 1 of the second season, when he thought that shana might of confessed to him last season, but after Shana's ambiguous answer, he can't really be sure.

Like i said i'm not saying he's stupid and completely clueless towards a girl's feelings, but given the way Shana behaves, he isn't quite sure whether she likes him or not. I mean he knows Yoshida likes him but is never certain about Shana.
Each time Yuji shows any interest in another girl Shana gets really uptight and angry. Even if I do my best to put my feet in Yuji's shoes I have a hard time believing anyone but the most socially inept would miss all those signs. If he was a social outcast then I would understand, but Yuji is shown as pretty accepted in his class.

In regards to Shana and Yuji's relationship, in the last few episodes of S1 they did more for each other then most peoples confessions equal. I love you, I kiss you, I shag you. What are they compared to I am willing to give up my life for you. They both showed a willingness to do that for each other, and especially when there was no need for them do so. Actually if it wasn't for their feelings for each other then I think S2 would be about Shana and the Reiji Maigo in someone else. Also for Yuji's part he went into the Alastor's flames with Shana thinking that is her last moment. He didn't need to do that, especially since I believe he thought it would be his too.
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Old 2007-10-28, 03:16   Link #50
holyman282
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Off course anyone would figure out that shana's behaviour indicates that she likes Yuji, I kind of had a feeling that Yuji knows this too... My justification for that would be the first ep..

Off course even though the evidence which points with a 99.9% certainty that Shana likes him, there is still that lingering 0.1% that he isn't sure, this combined with his confusion as to who he really likes (Yoshida or Shana) means that he probably wanted to keep things the way it is for now due to his uncertainty in terms of Shana's feelings.

I mean during S1 he was pretty touched by Yoshida's feelings too and since she already told him that she likes him where as Shana hasn't, I don't think he'd be telling Yoshida that he doesn't like her anytime soon. Also I doubt he sees Konoe as a possible romantic interest.. He takes more of an elder brotherly role towards her. Which justifies to a certain degree his confusion as to why Shana is so angry.

It's also interesting to note that early on in this ep, Yoshida never really saw Konoe as a threat, where Shana already has. It was only that scene in the park which Yoshida happens to stumble upon that got her jealous. So in part you could say that Shana's jealousy maybe early on was uncalled for.
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Old 2007-10-28, 03:30   Link #51
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
It's also interesting to note that early on in this ep, Yoshida never really saw Konoe as a threat, where Shana already has. It was only that scene in the park which Yoshida happens to stumble upon that got her jealous. So in part you could say that Shana's jealousy maybe early on was uncalled for.
It maybe uncalled for, but it is in no way out of her character. Whilst I believe several of Yuji's actions have been written out of character just to heighten the romantic elements of the series. The biggest example was during s1 when he legged it after Yoshida during the festival.

Personally I think that Shana with her hardened battle experience can sense an opponent be it love or war

@Julius Firefocht - I hope so too. I just want things to be written with some continuity in their characters. I have no problems with other love elements being added, but when people* act stupid to obvious situations for no apparent reason it really gets my goat.

*Not people as in the forum, but people as in characters in the show.
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Old 2007-10-28, 03:57   Link #52
holyman282
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@Julius Firefocht - I hope so too. I just want things to be written with some continuity in their characters. I have no problems with other love elements being added, but when people* act stupid to obvious situations for no apparent reason it really gets my goat.

*Not people as in the forum, but people as in characters in the show.
True that it could get annoying, but it's all in the name of dramatic irony. If the characters see and understand what we the audience does then the show would be much less interesting.. Within any series, there is always a time when the audience can discern a person's emotions better then the said character, an example would be when Shana in this ep asked why she feels that way, well I could of had the same reaction you had with Yuji and yell "Shana you're in love and freaking jealous"..
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Old 2007-10-28, 04:11   Link #53
grey_moon
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True that it could get annoying, but it's all in the name of dramatic irony. If the characters see and understand what we the audience does then the show would be much less interesting.. Within any series, there is always a time when the audience can discern a person's emotions better then the said character, an example would be when Shana in this ep asked why she feels that way, well I could of had the same reaction you had with Yuji and yell "Shana you're in love and freaking jealous"..
I do try my best to put my self in the shoes of the character before head butting my keyboard. I don't mind dramatic irony, but I am fearful of a ZnT turn around (although that was just plain stupid rather then dramatic). My favourite depiction of viewer v character view was defiantly in Clannad when we see the first fight scene, I nearly died from laughter.

Another thing that annoyed me with Yuji was the old interrupt someone when that are about to say something difficult. Someone fumbles trying desperately to say something, Yuji going Shana? doesn't help her, when will they learn to shut up and listen before opening their gobs!!!!

In regards to Shana's behaviour I don't think that is out of character as she is dealing with something new. She basically is experiencing jealousy of that level for the first time. Her character throughout the show has always been one of someone who never has had real human interaction. Yuji's case is different, he has the memories and feelings of Yuji the humie, so him being a torch doesn't count. He has a good friend, a caring mum and seems to interact well with his class. He shows the ability to discern someone else's feelings when he spotted that Hirai liked Ike. So imho for him to miss so many big barn door clues is out of the character that the writers have built up around him.
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Old 2007-10-28, 04:22   Link #54
holyman282
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Honestly I don't think Yuji is experienced concerning girls liking him.. It's just that feeling i get when i watched the first ep of S1, so I would say that he would be on character too. the thing is though, I'm actually seeing his character grow, he is realising things slowly, even thought Shana might of confessed to him in ep1, where as shana throughout S1 obviously liked him, yet she hasn't changed that much reguarding her realisation of her feelings towards Yuji.

That's dramatic irony if anything. At least Yuji get some of the hints, when someone likes him.
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Old 2007-10-28, 04:38   Link #55
grey_moon
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Honestly I don't think Yuji is experienced concerning girls liking him.. It's just that feeling i get when i watched the first ep of S1, so I would say that he would be on character too. the thing is though, I'm actually seeing his character grow, he is realising things slowly, even thought Shana might of confessed to him in ep1, where as shana throughout S1 obviously liked him, yet she hasn't changed that much reguarding her realisation of her feelings towards Yuji.

That's dramatic irony if anything. At least Yuji get some of the hints, when someone likes him.
But the thing is he does know about things like romantic relationships between people. Shana doesn't so it is not fair to compare their situations. Yuji has spotted and acted on behalf of Ike and Hirai, and even got angry at his best friend's lack of noticing Hirai (even though it wasn't Ike's fault). Yuji in terms of dealing with relationships has taken a few steps backwards since epi 1 s1.

I think its quite difficult to say what Yuji is feeling over Konoe. He says he is just looking after her, but after the bird scene I now have a few doubts (which is maybe what Yoshida felt when she saw them). If he just kept the old nice guy routine, I could accept the whole big brother act, but as soon as he went she looks just like Hecate, I thought uh oh! Stockholm's syndrome!!!! Hecate and Yuji kinda bonded at the end of s1 and all his thoughts and feelings poured into her. There must have been some form of bonding going on. Well tbh it was more like rape then anything else....
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Old 2007-10-28, 04:46   Link #56
holyman282
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lol this debate is getting confusing, I'll just try to re-evaluate what i'm arguing against. That Yuji, although certainly has become sharper, does not nessecarily mean sharper in the romance department.

Certainly he's not stupid in that department but, I really can't see how you can blame him, when Shana herself hasn't come forward with her own emotions. Shana needs to come to terms with her own emotions before we can go about blaming Yuji for paying closer attention to a girl that would fall off a cliff chasing a butterfly if she wasn't watched.

This is my last post for tonight. Tired and we'll continue this tomorrow if you're still up for it lol.

Good discussion by the way.
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Old 2007-10-28, 04:59   Link #57
grey_moon
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lol this debate is getting confusing, I'll just try to re-evaluate what i'm arguing against. That Yuji, although certainly has become sharper, does not nessecarily mean sharper in the romance department.

Certainly he's not stupid in that department but, I really can't see how you can blame him, when Shana herself hasn't come forward with her own emotions. Shana needs to come to terms with her own emotions before we can go about blaming Yuji for paying closer attention to a girl that would fall off a cliff chasing a butterfly if she wasn't watched.

This is my last post for tonight. Tired and we'll continue this tomorrow if you're still up for it lol.

Good discussion by the way.
Ooooo I not actually blaming him. I'm blaming the writers! Sorry I should make my posts a bit more clearer when I am saying the way Yuji acts compared to the way the writers have missed the consistency in writing the way Yuji acts. I do realise that it is very much up to the interpretation of the viewer and I do respect your point of view and think that a lot of what you say does make sense and broadens my own insight into the show.

I guess the reason I peg Shana and Yuji as having something of a relationship is because the end of S1 imho they skipped all the boring stuff like confessing, snogging and shagging and went straight for the I'll give up my life for you. That left a huge impact on me and S2 kinda trivialised what I thought was a momentous and touching set of scenes. One thing that does come to mind is maybe what is happening to Shana and Yuji is the same thing as what is happening with our discussion. Maybe Shana thinks "hey I gave up my life for you, we should have something special going on between us". Whilst Yuji is thinking "hey where is the confession, without it I have no idea how you are thinking"... Actually in all fairness to Yuji I personally always say that women should come out and say what they think as most men are stupid and cannot read their minds

The thing that really amused me over the whole looking after Konoe thing was Yoshida's racking up of brownie points using it. Konoe does seem a wee bit lacking in the department of common sense, but I am waiting for a shocking reason for that. But Yoshida just slipped into the whole we look after her (aka mum and dad) routine. Nice one Yoshida!

just in case anyone was wondering, no matter how much i am whining about Yuji's lack of romantic insight, I am actually really enjoying the show

look forward to your reply tomorrow
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Old 2007-10-28, 05:45   Link #58
tabun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deffusse
My hypotetic question>>>> Is it posible that Fumina Konoe san is only a pupet, lead by Hecate?[,,,]I think, it's no doubt that Konoe is only a trap set by Bal Masqué, to capture Yuugi
I don't know why not more of you are having thoughts in this direction. From what I read in this thread so far, most of you are concerned about the relationships and the relationships alone. True, the interaction between characters, especially Yuji, Shana and Yoshida already was an important part of SnS I, but it was never a topic of it's own right (although a major driving force at times, I will admit that much).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin
Something's ticking in the background, and I hope to find out what soon.
Indeed, this is what I think as well. For speculations see spoiler tag below.

Spoiler for due to overcautionsness:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperlion
What I want is more of balance, rather focusing on just the relationships I also want some action. I think that the first season did very well on balancing these two, but so far the second season has been focusing more on relationship. And looking at the preview it seems it will be like that next episode.
The question is: is it really this bad? If, from the 6th episode on, there would be massive action going on, or some unexpected plot twists, would you not be glad the stage has been set rather diligently while there was time? Personally, I am pleased with the amount of emphasis on the inter character relations, although not overly excited - after all, it is just speculation.

For now, I will bear with the lack of "action" and take my time watching the very beatiful screenplay. Episode 4 was the second one I watched in widescreen and h264, and it is worth every MB in excess of the xvid version. I am very impressed!


Although...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara
When Shana is sad the world is sad
*sigh* true, true
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Old 2007-10-28, 05:48   Link #59
Meloria
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Not a bad episode, though I'm never too fond of these jealousy moments in relationships, probably because they tend to drag on too much. Can't wait until Margery Daw gets back into the action though, I'll miss her during the action scenes. The ramen scene was great though. I wonder if there'd be a possibility for a Shakugan no Shana: Fumoffu,
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Old 2007-10-28, 05:57   Link #60
christinemarie
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Good episode, Fumiko really have drawn Yuji to her attention. The guy that would attend to her problem in school, also when she's going home, also when she's going to school. And he worries like hell searching for her when she disappears only to be found on the same place he was shown by Fumiko summoned the bird. She cares a lot for birds, (I doubt the cat for some reason). With the last episode and this episode, I can say that Fumiko is Hecate probably Bel use some sort of memory and ability as a Tomogara seal on her. (A good example is from Death Note when Light Yagami ask Ryuk to erase his memories and disown the Death Note, and just returned due to the Death Note returning to him later) Some sort of hougo that do the same trick. Anyway it just my speculation of mine.
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