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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 04 Rating
Perfect 10 17 12.41%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 28 20.44%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 48 35.04%
7 out of 10 : Good 26 18.98%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 5.84%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.46%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 6 4.38%
Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-10-29, 23:45   Link #201
yangxu
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Well economy usually ties in with politics. If the economy is good, then opportunities arise and living standards improve.

And last I checked, Tibet doesn't pay any taxes and most of their expenditures are paid for by the government. But that's off-topic.
China seems to be an exception to this rule. With 1.6 billion people, it's rather hard to improve everyone's living standards. The rich-poor ratio is out of proportion, despite the economic growth. So it'll take another 10 years before human rights catch up with China's economic growth.

Tibet gets special treats from the central government every year, so do the other "self-govern" provinces like Inner Mongolia. China tries very hard to hold its national integrity, it's not difficult to see why they'd give benefits to more remote, isolated areas that are at high risk of separation.
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Old 2007-10-30, 00:01   Link #202
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That isn't really my point. It's more that everyone (including Celestial Being) thought that it was justified even without the slightest pretext of dialogue or negotiation.
Well it's more like you have to walk the talk. As Wang stated, CB doesn't care what country you are. For an organization like CB, they have to maintain that. If you try to instigate conflict and such, we'll wipe you out. Talibia tried playing with them and this is what they got.

Plus, they can't do negotiations or dialouge, especially when your only public figure is some guy whose been dead for 200 years.

If you play with fire, you'll get burned.
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Old 2007-10-30, 00:10   Link #203
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You're missing my point: I meant that everyone thought that the Union's military response was appropriate even though they never bother to negotiate.
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Old 2007-10-30, 00:23   Link #204
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Originally Posted by yangxu View Post
First of all, what's the "bad" situation you speak of with Tibet? China has been doing their Great West Expansion project for a long time, to explore and invest in undeveloped regions such as Tibet. Whether Dalai Lama returns or not, it matters not to local Tibetans, their lifestyles have improved, that's what makes people happy nowadays.
They are getting colonized, assimilated and their own culture is disappearing, it's getting better for the chinese colon but for the native i will not be so sure.

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It's not really something other nations can bargain with China during negotiations, as long as they have common interests and profits to gain, human right issues become less of a problem to them.
That's how it works yes.
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Old 2007-10-30, 01:01   Link #205
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You're missing my point: I meant that everyone thought that the Union's military response was appropriate even though they never bother to negotiate.
What would you do if someone hijacked your only major power source? This isn't negotiable; it is priceless, as such there is only three options:

1. Ignore demands, power cut, America collapses in anarchy after all powers are cut.

2. Try to negotiate peacefully, but without any alternative energy source and CB making any military threat hollow, America will have to give in to EVERY demand. Essentially becoming a puppet nation.

3. Fight. The ONLY option, even if CB get involved.

What could America negotiate, anyway? "Please don't threaten us?"
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Old 2007-10-30, 01:04   Link #206
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Heh. You didn't even bother including the part about how the majority of "local" Tibetans are now ethnic Han Chinese who want no part of the Dalai Lama.
I gave up - where in the world did all those ethnically Han Chinese came from in the first place? You are talking about an area in China that has basically nothing, as that area is mostly left to the wandering nomad natives - The Chinese government "introduce" them in that area to dilute the population. Who is the one that doesn't do their research?

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Seriously edf91, you don't seem to know much about China outside of what one may read in poorly researched op-ed pieces in American newspapers. Right now, all you're doing is using the scattergun approach: throwing all sorts of general criticisms out and hoping that a few of them score. Not only is this taking us further afield from the orginal points, but you've now introduced totally unrelated stuff like Taiwan and Tibet into the mix. I suggest you do a little more research before we continue these points.
I thought I drop enough hints to my family is from China - guess that flew right by you. So I certainly didn't get my stuff from the left-leaning media in the US, thank you very much. And do you even know how the nation of Taiwan even get started? My point about Tibet and Taiwan is this - if there aren't money or resource from US funnel into these two places, no one outside of China region would even know about them, let alone let Taiwan grow so powerful, relatively speaking, in the region. With this in mind, imagine with another country, say France, do something with the native American Indian and help them recover their "land," how would the Americans feel about the French? It is the same concept with China, which brings me back to my point like ages ago - China is VERY unlikely to join forces with US in the Union, at least in the Gundam 00 world, assuming they are using the current political environment.

The "problem" with Tibet is basically this - it's literally in the middle of China, but their culture doesn't "mesh" well with the rest of China, so China cannot really afford to let it do independent, as other countries can use Tibet against China, therefore they decide to use a pretty heavy hand tactic as in moving non-native Chinese people to that region, censor the media, and make sure they stay part of China. Is that good or bad? Hard to say for certain, given I am not from that region, so I cannot say whether the people living there are living better lives now than before. As for Taiwan, I really don't want to get into the whole thing, since even the people in Taiwan are split - as in whether they should integrate back into China. I am sure we all heard "rumors" of various states in the US trying to separate itself from US (California and Vermont are the obvious one), but in Tibet and Taiwan, it is much worse.

Of course, maybe you have personal contacts in China and Russia, and I am just pulling stuff out of thin air, who knows...
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Old 2007-10-30, 01:13   Link #207
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
What would you do if someone hijacked your only major power source? This isn't negotiable; it is priceless, as such there is only three options:

1. Ignore demands, power cut, America collapses in anarchy after all powers are cut.

2. Try to negotiate peacefully, but without any alternative energy source and CB making any military threat hollow, America will have to give in to EVERY demand. Essentially becoming a puppet nation.

3. Fight. The ONLY option, even if CB get involved.

What could America negotiate, anyway? "Please don't threaten us?"
Just look at Marina's country - America cannot afford not to have solar power, so the only response America can do is to fight. Not only that, they probably will "crush" the opposition so other countries won't follow suit. Judging from how "quick" America come to their help after CB basically crushes them, it seems to suggest both sides have negotiators going back and forth, as if relationship is really bad, I doubt the Americans should listen to them so quickly.
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Old 2007-10-30, 02:03   Link #208
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I have a question.. Union have Graham.. HLA(?) have their super loli, AEU have who? Patrick? or soon Saji ?@_@ .. Not even OP show who their ace pilot is D:
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Old 2007-10-30, 02:43   Link #209
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You're missing my point: I meant that everyone thought that the Union's military response was appropriate even though they never bother to negotiate.
well I'm sure there are some negotiation going in the background considering the Taribia president and the US president can phone each other all they want. And they have not opened fire anyway, just sending armies to reinforce their positions, like the US had stationed army and sent carrier to Taiwan Straight when China did some missile threats. I know it's not very good to use real world political examples, but the point is, the Union sending troops around Taribia is quite okay, after all they still consider Taribia as part of Union, and what they have done is just to station fleet and do some air patrol on Union zones, without opening fire at all. Maybe if the Celestial Being has not arrived to beat the crap out of Taribia, the Union will send an Ultimatum and if Taribia still ignores it, then they'll go with REAL military attacks.

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I have a question.. Union have Graham.. HLA(?) have their super loli, AEU have who? Patrick? or soon Saji ?@_@ .. Not even OP show who their ace pilot is D:
Didn't AEU have their top ace who has won 2000 flawless victories... in battle simulations?
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Old 2007-10-30, 03:09   Link #210
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Didn't AEU have their top ace who has won 2000 flawless victories... in battle simulations?
You can never tell - maybe he will get powered up like "Orange kun" from Code Geass
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Old 2007-10-30, 03:29   Link #211
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I'm surprised no one has picked up on the real effects of Celestial Being's actions and the motives behind what they're doing.

CB's stated objective is of course the eradication of war. War is the inevitable consequence of opposing powers. The 00 world has three major powers who are not at war...however the world isn't exactly at peace either, the picture of the world we're given is one of military tensions...the three powers don't exactly trust each other, and are in something of a "Cold War" situation, fighting against each other by proxy through smaller territories.

In order to eliminate war then, CB's objective is the unification of the governments through negotiation. War for unification between the three powers is out of the question, a war like that would kill millions and would last years, if not decades. So CB wants to make a situation where the three major powers are forced to unify without killing each other to do it.

It seems to me that CB plans to do this by making themselves the enemy of the world, by giving the three powers a cause to unite against.

Now, specifically to episode 4, and the effects of the mission there...CB's attack on the small, rebellious nation was about giving a warning to every small country in the world. Their mission was to simply set an example...its effect: Reducing war. Now every single country in the world of 00 that had even the slightest thought of succession from a major power is terrified of being attacked and destroyed by CB. In this way, war is diminished, and the stability of the three major powers is upheld. CB wants the major powers focused on them, not on some small rebellious upstart country.

One attack by CB ended the hopes and dreams of rebellion by dozens of other countries.
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Old 2007-10-30, 03:47   Link #212
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a pretty smart move if i do say so myself

now if all countries started to rebel then CB would obviously have their hands full so what easier way it is to crush the rebellion themselves to show that they will not be used XD

not that simple really but looking at their actions i think their main objective isnt to just stop war, but to unite everyone on earth - and the first thing they need to do is to get those factions talking...

i really liked this ep compared to the previous ones...just shows that we really are getting into the story now

setsuna is so dam inexperienced it hurts to see him pilot such a great gundam >.> i mean nearly being taken out like that is pretty dumb...
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Old 2007-10-30, 05:53   Link #213
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And I wouldn't argue against that. However, this also means that the Union isn't really any more realistic than any other political entity either.
Oh but it is. That's how the world works. Some states carry over from 300 hundred years ago. Some conflicts and ideals carry over. Many evolve or are forgotten over time.

They generally don't work like what happens in, say, CE, where the ENTIRE WORLD decides to realign their borders and consolidate powers in random manners just because a war is fought, forgetting all previous history and making entirely new ones.

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That's untrue. Upon Talibia's declaration of independence, everyone felt that the Union, at the behest of just the American president, was justified in using force to crush them. There is no precedent for this kind of action on the part of any de facto nation-state in any of today's super-national organizations - the only exceptions that come to mind would be the Prague Spring and Hungarian Revolution, and nobody pretended that those countries were independent.
We don't know the legal nor the military system of the Union. For example, Talibia maintains its own squadron of mobile suits. Do most centralized states allow portions of itself maintain its own squad of troops? No. Does the Union legal system stipulate that the president is allowed to take military action on his own if one of its member states secedes? We don't know. Too little info, too many theories. But its all possible, because its the future. We don't need precedents. After all, 300 years ago, presidential republics were unheard of. And look at the situation today.
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Old 2007-10-30, 07:20   Link #214
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
What would you do if someone hijacked your only major power source? This isn't negotiable; it is priceless, as such there is only three options:
I'm not saying that the Union should negotiate; my point is more that nobody thought it important that they do so.

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Originally Posted by brightman
They generally don't work like what happens in, say, CE, where the ENTIRE WORLD decides to realign their borders and consolidate powers in random manners just because a war is fought, forgetting all previous history and making entirely new ones.
When did that happen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman
We don't know the legal nor the military system of the Union. For example, Talibia maintains its own squadron of mobile suits. Do most centralized states allow portions of itself maintain its own squad of troops? No. Does the Union legal system stipulate that the president is allowed to take military action on his own if one of its member states secedes? We don't know. Too little info, too many theories. But its all possible, because its the future. We don't need precedents. After all, 300 years ago, presidential republics were unheard of. And look at the situation today.
It isn't too abnormal for provincial governments to have small numbers of militia troops. Alternatively, the Talibian forces could have originally been Union regulars who simply turned coat.
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Old 2007-10-30, 07:50   Link #215
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We don't know the legal nor the military system of the Union. For example, Talibia maintains its own squadron of mobile suits. Do most centralized states allow portions of itself maintain its own squad of troops? No. Does the Union legal system stipulate that the president is allowed to take military action on his own if one of its member states secedes? We don't know. Too little info, too many theories. But its all possible, because its the future. We don't need precedents. After all, 300 years ago, presidential republics were unheard of. And look at the situation today.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the President not call a meeting of the Union Congress, and the Union representatives voted on military intervention? The President didn't act alone, the rest of the Union supported the decision.
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Old 2007-10-30, 08:01   Link #216
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When did that happen?
The reconstruction wars. Where fossil fuels ran out as well I think and the world fell into war and after the deployment of nuclear weapons all sides sat down and drew up a new treaty and new borders.

In that case, Korea, vietnamn, and Japan united with China to form the Republic of East Asia.
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Old 2007-10-30, 09:34   Link #217
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This episode didnt exactly play out the way I thought but still interesting indeed. I was more impressed by the political fallout from each country to show a position of strength (which happens in our world everyday). Also, once again the U.S. is painted as the quote unquote bad guy sigh but i wont touch on that.

C.B. tatics could be considered extreme but in most military and political figure's eyes if it the action produces results than the sacrfice and fallout is worth it. Because you can always play clean up latero or try deniablity. Meisters are well informed on how each goverment works in this era and it shows. Self serving and petty and using the tatic of uniting them by a declaration of intervention is just reverse psychology.

Imo what makes the Meisters especially good for these sort of missions is following the mission plans to the letter without exception and not trying to seek personal glory. ITs the same as the young Gundam Wing pilots when they launched operation metor. The difference is the meisters dont linger they pull out as soon as the mission is complete. The longer you fight the eaiser it is to make a mistake or an enemy to pinpoint your weakness. C.B. is not stupid they know the union and other countries want a Gundam to reverse engineer hell i would.

My perdiction is the world will become split eventually over those countries who support the C.B. and those who oppose them because they feel C.B. is stepping on their toes. The weaker countries who do not benefit as much from elevators will see the C.B. as means to an end to help them get a piece of the "so called energy pie" this would be a chance for them to get from under the thumb of the more powerful countries. In contrast the big boys will most likely form a allience or truce to stop what they would call a common enemy. In other words its Robin hood meets the Sheriff of Nottingham. This is just loose theory i havent quite forumlated all the details yet. But 00 is playing out to be more political than i thought it would be. That suits me just fine then just endless battles with no purpose for the sake of battles.

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"I will judge if peace at the expense of lives can really be called peace, and i will be evil its self to find out."

The meisters are in the same boat they take lives for the greater good of ending all wars but can that really be called the way forward or just a justifcation to exert ones own belifes on the rest of humanity.
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Old 2007-10-30, 12:13   Link #218
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Originally Posted by Kira_Naruto View Post
I have a question.. Union have Graham.. HLA(?) have their super loli, AEU have who? Patrick? or soon Saji ?@_@ .. Not even OP show who their ace pilot is D:
You know as much as I'd love to believe there's a super loli running around in a Gundam series, and I'm always the first to cry loli at the slightest sign of one, I don't think she looks all that loli. More like mid teens.
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Old 2007-10-30, 12:22   Link #219
Virtue
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It's been disappointing that all the Setsuna vs Graham fights are less than 30 seconds.
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Old 2007-10-30, 17:30   Link #220
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I believe that the problem here is that their conversation is basically information that the writers wanted to convey to the audience. They would have been much better off just putting it into the narration rather than repeating that "zero sum game" nonsense.
Even without putting it in the narration, a dialog between intelligent people would have been much nicer than a lesson between a private tutor and her rather slow-witted pupil.
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