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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 04 Rating
Perfect 10 17 12.41%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 28 20.44%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 48 35.04%
7 out of 10 : Good 26 18.98%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 5.84%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.46%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.46%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 6 4.38%
Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-10-31, 15:31   Link #281
Secca
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Join Date: Feb 2004
I tought it was interesting how Celestial Being declared their intention to the world in the first place. It's like they anouncing they be playing the devil to change the world. And in contrast it was kinda similiar with KIRA concept from Death Note. Get rid of all the bad elements in society to create an utopia.
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Old 2007-10-31, 15:34   Link #282
lubczyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As far as I'm concerned, the Union is a hegemony, so the US should have done exactly what they did in the show. This is as important for securing their energy as it is to preserve the Union.

However, as I said earlier, that's not how an alliance works. An implict right of any member of an alliance is the right to withdraw from it if they want to (i.e. France from NATO); if they cannot do so, then the political arrangement is something quite different. If the Union was functionally an alliance, then they may criticize Taribia, but it isn't sufficient excuse for attacking them (at least not right away). The Union's main recourse would be to renegotiate the rights to the orbital elevator - something like the Union maintaining control of the elevator and the territory immediately surrounding it and a guarantee of the energy delivery from the elevator in exchange for recognition of Taribia's sovereign rights. This would be similar to the arrangement that the Panama Canal operated under until quite recently.
I don't think the Union is a Alliance but rather a Federation.

The United Kingdom comprises England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. England is the hegemon obviously. I dought England would allow Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales to secede.

The Russian Federation comprises 85 federal subjects with Russia as the hegamon. Russia has shown it will not allow Chechnya or other states to secede.

The United States of America did not allow the Southern States to secede during the American Civil War. The Northeastern Shoreline holds most of the political power in the country. The state of Texas still has a right secession written into its constitution, but I dought Washington D.C. would allow it without a fight.

Most federations do not allow secession. I think the Union of Federalist States is a better term than the Union of Solar Energy and Free Nations in this case.

This is just speculation, I haven’t seen any concrete evidence on how the power structure of any of the three Blocs actually works.

Last edited by lubczyk; 2007-10-31 at 18:35.
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Old 2007-10-31, 17:54   Link #283
Morgun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
They're too expensive and resource-intensive to construct. Not only would they be (by far) the largest construction projects undertaken by any government, but it likely takes decades to build one - the AEU's elevator is at least ten years behind the schedule of the HRL's.

They wouldn't be so expensive and resource intensive if they didn't include all the bells and whistles like a cargo lift for both freight and people, a train station-like complex at the base and party rooms at the top of the elevator.

A bare-bones solar energy power cord structure should be buildable at only a fraction of the cost of the current monstrosities.

But it wouldn't look as cool.
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:01   Link #284
brightman
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Functionally, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two. In alliances, member states don't get attacked for trying to secede (then again, they don't have to secede in the first place).
But President Bryan explicitly mentioned that the US was Taribia's ally, and that they were "fully obliged" to help them militarily if they needed it. Member states within a federation don't call each other "allies", them call each other compatriots or something to that effect.

Like I said before, the Union is most likely an entity that is practically unprecedented based on the way it is formulated in the first place. After all, the biggest project in the history of mankind and the lifeline to which billions of people depend on would create alliances that are much closer than any we've seen before. So unless we get a deeper idea of how the Union actually works, I don't think you can use contemporary definitions to discount anything.
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:03   Link #285
SoldierOfDarkness
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There's quite a bit of stuff to consider when building a giant pole that extends from the Earth all the way into space and such.
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:13   Link #286
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
There's quite a bit of stuff to consider when building a giant pole that extends from the Earth all the way into space and such.
Never-mind that, if you actually want electricity from it to your cities you would would need to build a gigantic network of pipes.

Pipes should radiate from the Elevator to each sponsor nation of the structure. Japan and Australia probably partially share the same pipe across the Pacific ocean in order to save money.

These pipes are probably the major cause for concern. The elevators are protected by the military 24/7. But the pipes take up too much surface area to be guarded all the time.
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:31   Link #287
SoldierOfDarkness
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Yeah I was wondering about that. I don't see how feasible it'd be for Austrlia and Japan to have energy pipes leading ALL THE WAY across the pacific. They'd be better off using the energy sources by HRA.
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:35   Link #288
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Morgun View Post
They wouldn't be so expensive and resource intensive if they didn't include all the bells and whistles like a cargo lift for both freight and people, a train station-like complex at the base and party rooms at the top of the elevator.

A bare-bones solar energy power cord structure should be buildable at only a fraction of the cost of the current monstrosities.

But it wouldn't look as cool.
I think that on the contrary, the "bells and whistles" are peanuts compared to constructing the space elevator at all. Except maybe the cargo lifts, but they're part of what makes the elevator worth making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Yeah I was wondering about that. I don't see how feasible it'd be for Austrlia and Japan to have energy pipes leading ALL THE WAY across the pacific. They'd be better off using the energy sources by HRA.
Well, we don't know how they store and move energy. Are we even sure it's directly converted to electricity?

For all we know, they have some way of dropping it from space in neat little containers...
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:36   Link #289
X207
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Montreal
finally that flag is getting on par with exia. previous encounters were boring. one or 2 more upgrades/battles and it will be a good rival.
wats with the preview anyway, is kyrios in danger of being attacked?
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:38   Link #290
raideralan
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I can't seem to connect to the conclave tracker, I get this connection error message. Is it down?
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:44   Link #291
Morgun
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Never-mind that, if you actually want electricity from it to your cities you would would need to build a gigantic network of pipes.

Pipes should radiate from the Elevator to each sponsor nation of the structure. Japan and Australia probably partially share the same pipe across the Pacific ocean in order to save money.

These pipes are probably the major cause for concern. The elevators are protected by the military 24/7. But the pipes take up too much surface area to be guarded all the time.
You'd think if they were advanced enough to build giant space elevators then building some sort of wireless energy transfer system would be a snap.
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Old 2007-10-31, 18:56   Link #292
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Morgun View Post
You'd think if they were advanced enough to build giant space elevators then building some sort of wireless energy transfer system would be a snap.
No it won't. The elevator is difficult and expensive, but relatively practical. While constantly sending enough energy to power a third of the Earth's cities in a giant beam of death without insulation = looking for trouble.
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Old 2007-10-31, 19:01   Link #293
raideralan
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So i take it I'm the only one with this problem?
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Old 2007-10-31, 19:07   Link #294
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
No it won't. The elevator is difficult and expensive, but relatively practical. While constantly sending enough energy to power a third of the Earth's cities in a giant beam of death without insulation = looking for trouble.
Well if it's centralized in hubs it maybe possible. The elevator would beam energy from orbit to locations that would store the energy and transfer it to specific areas.

Or it may even be a combination. Some areas are beamed with energy while areas that are close by don't even need the energy beamed to them.


In bubble gum crisis I believe they supplied energy from the elevator by a train that drops off energy containers.
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Old 2007-10-31, 19:10   Link #295
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgun
They wouldn't be so expensive and resource intensive if they didn't include all the bells and whistles like a cargo lift for both freight and people, a train station-like complex at the base and party rooms at the top of the elevator.

A bare-bones solar energy power cord structure should be buildable at only a fraction of the cost of the current monstrosities.
The "bells and whistles" are actually fairly good ideas if you're going to build something like an orbital elevator to begin with. Moreover, they're relatively insignificant to build compared to the greater issues of load bearing and the like.

To put things into perspective, the tallest tower of the World Trade Center had dimensions of 417m x 63m x 63m, for a total volume of 1.66E6 m^3. The Gundam 00 elevators seem to have a diameter of around 500m, and if we assumed that they're 150km tall, the total volume would be around 1.47E10 m^3, or 8800 times as big. Even if we assume that they have the same density (which wouldn't make sense at all), the elevator would require 8800 times as much material, and probably over 30,000 times the resources (and about a million times the effort) to construct. By their nature, there's no way to build a "pared down" version of an orbital elevator (and if there was, the AEU probably would have done it that way).

Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman
But President Bryan explicitly mentioned that the US was Taribia's ally, and that they were "fully obliged" to help them militarily if they needed it. Member states within a federation don't call each other "allies", them call each other compatriots or something to that effect.
They do when they're trying to support a legal fiction. Names and labels when it comes to politics often mean exactly jack and squat. Case in point: the members of the Warsaw Pact were supposedly equal partners, but it's obviously not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Like I said before, the Union is most likely an entity that is practically unprecedented based on the way it is formulated in the first place. After all, the biggest project in the history of mankind and the lifeline to which billions of people depend on would create alliances that are much closer than any we've seen before. So unless we get a deeper idea of how the Union actually works, I don't think you can use contemporary definitions to discount anything.
That's sort of untrue. While political definitions largely exist to describe historical and contemporary political structures, they're also flexible enough to be encompass (perhaps with a few modifications) hypothetical ideas as well. It's possible for a new system to appear that's truly incompatible with any of our existing terminology, there's no reason to believe that the Union is one of these.

Furthermore, while the orbital elevator projects bring nations together in a novel manner, the political terminology describes how the structure they form functions. The reason for the structure itself is irrelevant to this nomenclature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
No it won't. The elevator is difficult and expensive, but relatively practical. While constantly sending enough energy to power a third of the Earth's cities in a giant beam of death without insulation = looking for trouble.
Actually, this is an idea that's worth exploring. You can read more about it here.
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Old 2007-10-31, 19:19   Link #296
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Actually, this is an idea that's worth exploring. You can read more about it here.
I am aware of that, too. My point was that beamed energy might be useful for a small number of cases, but if you want a constant steady supply you would have to go wired. Reliability is more important than how fancy it looks, the same reason why I am using a wired mouse and keyboard.

And anyway, the elevator also functions as a cheap form of space transport for building materials. They couldn't have built all the solar panels and everything else in space big enough to wrap around the EARTH, using just rockets and shuttles, especially NOT during a fuel shortage.
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Old 2007-10-31, 19:32   Link #297
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I am aware of that, too. My point was that beamed energy might be useful for a small number of cases, but if you want a constant steady supply you would have to go wired. Reliability is more important than how fancy it looks, the same reason why I am using a wired mouse and keyboard.
This may be true in the world of Gundam 00, but it's a very different case in the real world - technological limitations are even greater concerns than reliability. We can't conceive of a way to build space elevators (much less have the capacity to do so!), while beamed power is still in the realm of possibility (albeit it's still far from now). The main advantage of elevators is that they're useful for other purposes as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And anyway, the elevator also functions as a cheap form of space transport for building materials. They couldn't have built all the solar panels and everything else in space big enough to wrap around the EARTH, using just rockets and shuttles, especially NOT during a fuel shortage.
It's impossible to build an orbital elevator purely from the ground up, so you'd have to boost material into orbit with chemical rockets to construct an orbital elevator in any case. In fact, the amount that you'd need to boost up is probably greater for an elevator than for the described solar network.
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Old 2007-10-31, 19:36   Link #298
dahak
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Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
I don't think the Union is a Alliance but rather a Federation.

The United Kingdom comprises England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. England is the hegemon obviously. I dought England would allow Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales to secede.
Eire seceded from the UK. So did the North American Colonies on two seperate occasions.
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Old 2007-10-31, 19:41   Link #299
Morgun
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Actually, this is an idea that's worth exploring. You can read more about it here.

I hadn't seen that article before. Thx for the link.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I am aware of that, too. My point was that beamed energy might be useful for a small number of cases, but if you want a constant steady supply you would have to go wired. Reliability is more important than how fancy it looks, the same reason why I am using a wired mouse and keyboard.

And anyway, the elevator also functions as a cheap form of space transport for building materials. They couldn't have built all the solar panels and everything else in space big enough to wrap around the EARTH, using just rockets and shuttles, especially NOT during a fuel shortage.

I don't know. I don't think it's unreasonable to think our tech is going to be much more efficient 300 years in the future, especially for our solar cells.
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Old 2007-10-31, 19:58   Link #300
lubczyk
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Originally Posted by dahak View Post
Eire seceded from the UK. So did the North American Colonies on two seperate occasions.
I know they did, but the UK didn't let them go without a fight. Even if Celestial Being had helped Talibia successfully secede from the Union by defeating the Union fleet, Brazilian Air Force, every other country on the continent would have fought tooth and nail to get access to the orbital elevator thus turning Talibia into a warzone that even Celestial Being couldn't stop.

I hope that Celestial Being isn't powerful enough to destroy whole armies like the Wing Zero or Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice.
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