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Old 2009-06-11, 00:13   Link #281
james0246
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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
Did you forget what Kenpachi said when he arrived to save Ichigo about Yammamoto's orders?
Yes, and what you are not understanding, is the fact that before Kenpachi arrived, there was no indication that any one from Soul Society would attempt to enter Hueco Mundo. This is why, in the context of the story, Kenpachi and the others arriving, is, at worst, a deus ex machina, and at best, plot contrivance.

It doesn't matter that Kenpachi said that Yamamoto sent them, what matters is that Yamamoto sending them was not part of any of the previous info (we had no reason to assume that they would show up, so their appearance is "out of the blue"). This isn't a situation where present/future canon outweighs past canon, this is a situation where Yamamoto specifically forbid anyone entering Hueco Mundo, but then people from Soul Society all of a sudden show up, so Kubo had to create an excuse for them to be there. And, all the while, they appear at the most opportune time for the protagonists.

Honestly, this is a classic example of a deus ex machina: people appear to save the hero in the nick of time, even when they have no reason to be there.

Thankfully, Kubo used this deus situation to help further the plot.
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Old 2009-06-11, 00:24   Link #282
Phenomenal
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That's called a plot twist not DEM....^^^
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Old 2009-06-11, 03:47   Link #283
Haak
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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
Your insulting yourself by ignoring straight up canon facts. Ulqui doesn't need to state it was Hollow Reitsu because WE the fans know when Ulqui makes the comment about his fluctauating Reaitsu IS WHEN the hollow is trying to takeover..IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE STATED WHEN THE OBVIOUS IS SHOWN RIGHT IN YOUR VERY FACE!!
How the hell am I ignoring them. I've already addressed them. Its you who is ingoring my points. Explain to me why he was surprised Ichigo had Hollow reiatsu when they first fought. I've made this point over and over and over again, but you've never once addressed it. Not only that, I've made a theory about how Ulquiorra could've been mistaken and ONCE AGAIN you've ignored me on that.

The fact is that Ulquiorra does not know what's going on. Chapter 193 page 20

"But at the highest point he is above me. Where is the logic in this?"

Looks like you're the one ignoring what's right in your face.

Just give it up.

Ah so you finally found something after pissing about all this time? No, Ichigo did not awaken his soul cutter through resolve. That's just plain as hell ridiculous. He was still pissing his pants when Zangetsu was talking to him and he was still pissing his pants afterwards. Now I can understand if it was a sort of "one time fluke" that he just happened to achieve perfectly at such a convenient moment and later had to understand fully in order to use it well but you can't achieve determination or resolve as a fluke and so perfectly. And TWICE. If he did release his soul cutter through resolve, this isn't making any sense now.

And it still doesn't mean anything. It was still revealed that resolve could help him win the fight physically DURING the fight. It still came out of nowhere. "Oh by the way fans, you know when Ichigo released his sword? Apparently he did this through resolve which he can also use to miraculously win a fight against an opponent far smarter than him." See what I mean?

Anyway, if you're right and Ichigo's fight with Renji is not Deus ex machina it's still a blatant plot device, so i'm still struggling to understand why you care so much. I've already shut you up on so many other points. Just let it go already.

By the way a plot twist is something that's supposed to make sense

@ - Cub-Sama, I'll address your points later. You may be onto something.

Last edited by Haak; 2009-06-11 at 09:47.
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Old 2009-06-11, 07:04   Link #284
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In Bleach all characters fight using swords and usually a one good cut is enought to kill a person or make her unable to continue fighting. However in fictional world like Bleach it is possible to survive after being cut almost in half, but that was thanks to time reverse thing. But characters can swing their sword when both their shoulders were cut 10-20 cm deep (see Ichigo's scars from his fight against Renji).
The story is wholy in the hands of its writter, because characters don't even have to posses super regeneration powers like Ulq, because they can withstand enormous number of wounds and pain by sole "resolve" that is uncountable.
Hitsugaya froze his wounds after being cut in shreds when he first time faces Arrancar.
Ichigo cut Zaraki few times and most likly much less than Nnoirta cut him, before he released his eyepath and was deafeted. We later on see Zaraki take much more damage from Tousen&Komamura and he calls it "not enought for a warm up" - and this is a part when Zaraki takes on two shikai captains.
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Old 2009-06-11, 07:07   Link #285
Haak
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Really? I figured that was due to reiatsu more than resolve. When Ichigo got that shot from Renji when they first met he was down from just that. But then his reiatsu increased again and he didn't feel it anymore.
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Old 2009-06-11, 07:54   Link #286
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One thing I felt was weird was how certain stuff just felt.. unfinished. For example, there is some talk in the first, pre-SS Byakuya encounter that bodies have a "special organ" that can be stabbed that would render a soul unable to do Shinigami stuff, and during the SS Renji vs. Ichigo fight there is some talk that all Zanpakutou share some fault or similar, I can't remember well, but has there been any talk later of these things?
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Old 2009-06-11, 09:08   Link #287
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^ Chain link and soul sleep, were used by Ishida to incapacitate Jiroubo. Iun remember anything about faulty swords tho.
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Old 2009-06-11, 09:13   Link #288
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I remember one funny "realism" thing that was brought into Bleach for one fight and forgotten forever ever since. Blood getting into your eyes - this was Ikkaku fight only thing because now everybody gets face covered with blood and it dosn't bother anybody XD
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Old 2009-06-11, 09:16   Link #289
Haak
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^ OH LOL! I forgot about that. XD
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Old 2009-06-11, 10:41   Link #290
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Originally Posted by Wolcik View Post
I remember one funny "realism" thing that was brought into Bleach for one fight and forgotten forever ever since. Blood getting into your eyes - this was Ikkaku fight only thing because now everybody gets face covered with blood and it dosn't bother anybody XD
That was spirit-particled blood and Ichigo's reiatsu wasn't enough to blow up 5 blocks back then, so he had to try and wipe it off with his hand...pfft, hahahaha!
Just to be fair the guy was a rookie and KT had an aptitude for better battles back then.
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Old 2009-06-11, 22:05   Link #291
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How the hell am I ignoring them. I've already addressed them. Its you who is ingoring my points. Explain to me why he was surprised Ichigo had Hollow reiatsu when they first fought. I've made this point over and over and over again, but you've never once addressed it. Not only that, I've made a theory about how Ulquiorra could've been mistaken and ONCE AGAIN you've ignored me on that.

The fact is that Ulquiorra does not know what's going on. Chapter 193 page 20

"But at the highest point he is above me. Where is the logic in this?"

Looks like you're the one ignoring what's right in your face.

Just give it up.
Yes the" highest point" thing was referring to the hollow inside of Ichigo and everyone BUT you can understand this...No never mind you don't want to understand it. Your theories are nonsense, everyone knows you are being a stubborn person..."Hichigo's" Reaitsu is greater than Ulqui's, period that's canon FACT!

Canon > Your long made up opinions/Theories...

Quote:
Ah so you finally found something after pissing about all this time? No, Ichigo did not awaken his soul cutter through resolve. That's just plain as hell ridiculous. He was still pissing his pants when Zangetsu was talking to him and he was still pissing his pants afterwards. Now I can understand if it was a sort of "one time fluke" that he just happened to achieve perfectly at such a convenient moment and later had to understand fully in order to use it well but you can't achieve determination or resolve as a fluke and so perfectly. And TWICE. If he did release his soul cutter through resolve, this isn't making any sense now.

And it still doesn't mean anything. It was still revealed that resolve could help him win the fight physically DURING the fight. It still came out of nowhere. "Oh by the way fans, you know when Ichigo released his sword? Apparently he did this through resolve which he can also use to miraculously win a fight against an opponent far smarter than him." See what I mean?

Anyway, if you're right and Ichigo's fight with Renji is not Deus ex machina it's still a blatant plot device, so i'm still struggling to understand why you care so much. I've already shut you up on so many other points. Just let it go already.
This isn't an argument against the canon I presented against you...? We have Sengetsu talking to him about defeating the fear [resolve] [THE SAME THING URAHARA DEVELOPED ON]!! You got to do better than this cause...

Canon > Your boring opinions...
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Old 2009-06-12, 04:02   Link #292
Haak
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Originally Posted by Phenomenal View Post
Yes the" highest point" thing was referring to the hollow inside of Ichigo and everyone BUT you can understand this...No never mind you don't want to understand it. Your theories are nonsense, everyone knows you are being a stubborn person..."Hichigo's" Reaitsu is greater than Ulqui's, period that's canon FACT!

Canon > Your long made up opinions/Theories...
So you do agree that Ichigo's reiatsu doesn't fluctuate right? That was the the initial point. Now we're talking about something else entirely. I'm gonna assume I've shut you up on this point as well. Moving on...

But no it's not canon. Like I said "the highest point" at best only proves that Ichigo + Hollow ichigo is stronger than Ulquiorra. It could be interpreted to mean anything. I'm pretty sure I made this point before. I should've repeated that point again in my last post, because I knew you'd say something stupid like this.

Your supposed "canon" also contradicts Ulquiorra being surprised when they first fought (How long are you going to ignore this?). So either it's a Deus Ex Machina or it's a plot hole. Which one is it?

By the way please don't say things like "everyone knows you're being a stubborn person". You know it's wrong. Don't do it.

I'll also say this: Straw Man fallacy - Now lets see if you can use that brain to figure out what the hell I'm talking about. I'll give you a clue: I've pointed it out like 5 fucking times already.

Quote:
This isn't an argument against the canon I presented against you...? We have Sengetsu talking to him about defeating the fear [resolve] [THE SAME THING URAHARA DEVELOPED ON]!! You got to do better than this cause...

Canon > Your boring opinions...
Yeah but that could just be a pep talk. It explains what I said before so my theory is more consistent than canon, apparently.

By the way it couldn't be resolve since he didn't have that weird glint in his eyes when he released Zangetsu.

Don't you get it? The point I'm making is that it's NOT Canon.

And i did make the point that it's still a Deus Ex Machina even if it's true. Or atleast an extremely similar plot device.

Last edited by Haak; 2009-06-12 at 07:30.
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Old 2009-06-12, 11:54   Link #293
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I think Kubo should have explained espada power levels more.

For example Ulquiorra's 2nd release. In my opinion it is at the same level as un-released Barragan while others proclaim him to be number 1
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Old 2009-06-12, 21:41   Link #294
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
So you do agree that Ichigo's reiatsu doesn't fluctuate right? That was the the initial point. Now we're talking about something else entirely. I'm gonna assume I've shut you up on this point as well. Moving on...
What was your initial point? The Hollow causes Ichigo's reaitstu to fluctuate...

Quote:
But no it's not canon. Like I said "the highest point" at best only proves that Ichigo + Hollow ichigo is stronger than Ulquiorra. It could be interpreted to mean anything. I'm pretty sure I made this point before. I should've repeated that point again in my last post, because I knew you'd say something stupid like this.
No, it isn't meant to be interpreted by anything, it was reffering to "Hichigo's" reaitsu being stronger than Ulqui's and the Reaitsu being lower than Ulqui's was Ichigo's. It's clear cut and dry..Keep ignoring canon though....

Quote:
Your supposed "canon" also contradicts Ulquiorra being surprised when they first fought (How long are you going to ignore this?). So either it's a Deus Ex Machina or it's a plot hole. Which one is it?
Neither, cause Ulquirra also comments that he "overstimated Ichigo, his evolution didn't meet his expectations!" in that first fight against Ichigo [Chapter 272 pg 1]. But we all know that wasn't the hollow taking over now, was it? Until llater, which confirms Ulquirra's statement true about the hollow Reaitsu being higher than his. That first time meeting statement from Ulqui about Ichigo was not a mistake.

Quote:
Yeah but that could just be a pep talk. It explains what I said before so my theory is more consistent than canon, apparently..
Just stop, Your theories can never overcome canon.

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2009-06-12 at 22:30.
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Old 2009-06-13, 07:30   Link #295
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So you do agree that Ichigo's reiatsu doesn't fluctuate right? That was the the initial point. Now we're talking about something else entirely. I'm gonna assume I've shut you up on this point as well. Moving on...

But no it's not canon. Like I said "the highest point" at best only proves that Ichigo + Hollow ichigo is stronger than Ulquiorra. It could be interpreted to mean anything. I'm pretty sure I made this point before. I should've repeated that point again in my last post, because I knew you'd say something stupid like this.

Your supposed "canon" also contradicts Ulquiorra being surprised when they first fought (How long are you going to ignore this?). So either it's a Deus Ex Machina or it's a plot hole. Which one is it?
I myself adressed this point, Ulquiorra was surprised because until that point he could not feel the hollow reiatsu pouring out he could just feel his reiatsu levels going up because Ichigo was still supressing Hichigo from coming out. When Ichigo finally used Hichigo's reiatsu that was when Ulquiorra could finally feel the hollow reiatsu.

Also it does not prove that Ichigo+Hichigo are stronger, Zangetsu is a part of Ichigo's soul whilst Hichigo is an abnormality that formed inside Ichigo whilst reclaiming his shinigami powers. He is like a virus that demands the take over of Ichigo's mentality, he replicates anything Ichigo learns and makes it part of him as well as having his hollow powers.

Ichigo+Hichigo is Ichigo using the hollow mask

IMO Ichigo is like an inner shinigami of Hichigo so just as well as Ichigo can use what Hichigo knows without the side effects of being infected with his personality Hichigo can do the same. And that to me just sounds like Ichigo with knowledge of how Hichigo works and that is not the same as the merging of the two.
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Old 2009-06-13, 12:39   Link #296
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Another new one:

Stark is actually a mexican gun wielding hermaphrodite.
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Old 2009-06-13, 13:22   Link #297
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I myself adressed this point, Ulquiorra was surprised because until that point he could not feel the hollow reiatsu pouring out he could just feel his reiatsu levels going up because Ichigo was still supressing Hichigo from coming out. When Ichigo finally used Hichigo's reiatsu that was when Ulquiorra could finally feel the hollow reiatsu.

Also it does not prove that Ichigo+Hichigo are stronger, Zangetsu is a part of Ichigo's soul whilst Hichigo is an abnormality that formed inside Ichigo whilst reclaiming his shinigami powers. He is like a virus that demands the take over of Ichigo's mentality, he replicates anything Ichigo learns and makes it part of him as well as having his hollow powers..
Thank you Cub Sama, I'm glad you can understand....

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2009-06-13 at 13:33.
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Old 2009-06-13, 13:29   Link #298
Sabaku Kyu
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Another new one:

Stark is actually a mexican gun wielding hermaphrodite.
Uh, think you're a bit confused. The title is "what went wrong with Bleach". Everyone knows that Mexican gun-wielding hermaphrodites are awesome
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cub-Sama
I myself adressed this point, Ulquiorra was surprised because until that point he could not feel the hollow reiatsu pouring out he could just feel his reiatsu levels going up because Ichigo was still supressing Hichigo from coming out. When Ichigo finally used Hichigo's reiatsu that was when Ulquiorra could finally feel the hollow reiatsu.
If I remember correctly, Orihime distinctly felt the hollow reiatsu even before Ichigo started fighting. It was definitely present. I think Uql felt it, he just didn't say anything at the time because it was the reiatsu fluctuation that caught his attention more at the moment rather than the fact that it was hollow-like.
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Old 2009-06-13, 18:45   Link #299
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If I remember correctly, Orihime distinctly felt the hollow reiatsu even before Ichigo started fighting. It was definitely present. I think Uql felt it, he just didn't say anything at the time because it was the reiatsu fluctuation that caught his attention more at the moment rather than the fact that it was hollow-like.
Well Orihime is more used to feeling his reiatsu constantly so the slightest change in feel would be very noticeable to her whilst Ulquiorra might not feel that change other than it's volume raising
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Old 2009-06-13, 19:33   Link #300
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Well to state the obvious, noone ever dies. They just keep reappearing / getting healed like nothing really happened, it's like Dragonball only without the dragonball's because they obviously don't need the wishes.
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