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Old 2011-09-03, 10:10   Link #901
sayde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
Why does Kubo have to stick to typical shounen villain personality where he’s really wishing for his own demise because he feels that freakin’ “loneliness?” I really thought Aizen will take a unique path for a supervillain……………
You're hardly the only who feels that way. Believe me. Especially since Kubo's claim of Aizen being "stronger than anybody else" isn't even completely true. Among the Gotei 13 he had at least one person to rival his intelligence and another person who's power surpassed his own since the moment he joined.

Last edited by sayde; 2011-09-03 at 10:22.
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Old 2011-09-03, 11:52   Link #902
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And yet Aizen's plot armor prevailed in the end, Aizen's own zanpakuto isn't even that hax either and if Aizen didn't have his plot armor he would lost as far as the Arrancar arc.
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Old 2011-09-03, 12:21   Link #903
sayde
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Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
Aizen's own zanpakuto isn't even that hax either
I beg to differ. As far zanpakuto abilities go, his is the best canon ability we've seen in this series yet. The ability was so broken that the author himself had to completely ignore it's existence in the decisive battle since he clearly wasn't up to the task of figuring out a way to let his main protagonist legitimately overcome it. It's one and only fault (that Gin revealed) can't even be considered a true weakness.
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Old 2011-09-03, 17:39   Link #904
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IMO one of the things that went wrong is failure to make spoilers go hand in hand with the main story line and ichigo gaining his powers in almost THREE months where was the hurry thats why some say naruto has a better storyline but bleach has better graphics
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Old 2011-09-03, 22:43   Link #905
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Originally Posted by Baragan View Post
IMO one of the things that went wrong is failure to make spoilers go hand in hand with the main story line and ichigo gaining his powers in almost THREE months where was the hurry thats why some say naruto has a better storyline but bleach has better graphics
narutos plot turned to a$$ juice churned from a
donkeys rancid butthole. which in this case is still
better than bleach’s plot. IMO hunter x hunter and one piece have far superior plot than both and better art too..
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Old 2011-09-04, 01:21   Link #906
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Don't you just love it when someone neg-reps without bothering to argue their point
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Originally Posted by neg-rep
Because he only understood the true motive/nature of Hougyouku during his plan.
I mean I'm not sure exactly what this person is even referring to exactly...
Best I can guess its about aizen using the espada to stall and in that case it doesn't matter whether or not Aizen knew what the little macguffin was. He organized the espada for the simple reason to buy time so that it could do whatever it was going to do... He wasn't exactly on a time limit to create the king's key, he could have waited another thousnad years if he wanted to; there was no rush. He didn't have to move or take any actions and could have just waited in hiding until his little magic ball did whatever it was going to do; no need for the espada to buy time for him since he could have just waited

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Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
thanks for this, ........though it seems like those two statements/facts are completely contradictory to one another.
I'm not sure if I'd call them contradictory, but I would say they do not add up... His original motivation, and his ultimate goals just plain have nothing to do with eachother and that's why it doesn't seem to make much sense. Usually one's goals is related to their motivation, but as it stands the two in Aizen's case just don't relate to eachother. Nothing about Aizen's plan sounds like it would have solved his original dilemma. Seems to me like Kubo was trying to make Aizen more complexed and wanted to try and make it something original, but came up with this little backstory AFTER he had Aizen go through with his plans.
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Old 2011-09-04, 01:42   Link #907
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Even if the galaxy didn't revolve around ichigo, the captains are still 23829382938298x more powerful than their lieutenants, which in turn are 513x more powerful than anything else.
They might as well just send everyone home to their unbelievably shitty afterlife and have the captains just kill everything with their minds.
And I wonder what Aizen's bankai could possibly be besides instant win.
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Old 2011-09-04, 12:39   Link #908
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
You're hardly the only who feels that way. Believe me. Especially since Kubo's claim of Aizen being "stronger than anybody else" isn't even completely true. Among the Gotei 13 he had at least one person to rival his intelligence and another person who's power surpassed his own since the moment he joined.
Aizen believed he was just plain better than anyone else, a belief that probably stemmed from his unbelievable power as a kid. Even if he did find others as strong (Yamamoto) and as intelligent (Urahara) in the Gotei 13 it didn't matter because they lacked his vision. They're complacent sheep like everyone else, while he aims for the prize. Aizen became obsessed with perfection and convinced himself he was the only person meant to achieve it.

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I'm not sure if I'd call them contradictory, but I would say they do not add up... His original motivation, and his ultimate goals just plain have nothing to do with eachother and that's why it doesn't seem to make much sense. Usually one's goals is related to their motivation, but as it stands the two in Aizen's case just don't relate to eachother. Nothing about Aizen's plan sounds like it would have solved his original dilemma.
Ending his loneliness was Aizen's inner desire, not his motivation. His motivation was becoming a perfect being. It seems to me Aizen's story was supposed to be a Citizen Kane type deal: y'know, guy becomes filthy rich and aggressively rises to power then we find out on his deathbed that what he truly desired was the simple life he had when was a child living in poverty.

Aizen's goals were what he believed he was meant to do and what he thought he wanted, but deep down he was still just lonely. I don't really think it's all that bad of a premise actually...a little cliche maybe like rei mentioned, but damn, what villainous motives aren't cliche by now? It was poorly executed though. Definitely felt tacked on, but it was still better than Gin's motives, which I thought were ridiculous. It was pretty much Tousen's motive except his friend didn't die, but instead completely recovered, making "avenging" her seem all but pointless.

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Originally Posted by underpaid View Post
Even if the galaxy didn't revolve around ichigo, the captains are still 23829382938298x more powerful than their lieutenants, which in turn are 513x more powerful than anything else.
And the Captain Commander is 10100 x more powerful than the captains. The vizard captains (except Shinji) also seemed less powerful than the normal captains.
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Old 2011-09-04, 14:18   Link #909
sayde
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Aizen believed he was just plain better than anyone else, a belief that probably stemmed from his unbelievable power as a kid. Even if he did find others as strong (Yamamoto) and as intelligent (Urahara) in the Gotei 13 it didn't matter because they lacked his vision.
As a personal interpretation based on your logical assumptions & conclusions, I really have nothing to say against that. However, I'm arguing that interpreting Kubo's words in-and-of-themself makes little sense to me. For example

Aizen was stronger than anybody else--well we know for a fact that he wasn't. Even if we wanted to assume that this statement was meant to be interpreted as how Aizen viewed himself as oppose to a concrete fact it doesn't completely add up if we stop to acknowledge the fact that there were clearly times in this series when he's openly acknowledged others to have intelligence or strength that rivaled and/or surpassed his own. So how could Aizen feel he was better than everyone else when we know he's able to admit it if someone is better than himself at something?

because of this, he was lonely and misunderstood by everyone. --well if we're to believe that his strength was the cause of his loneliness and much misunderstanding, then why was it that even after getting to know 2 characters who's power surpassed his own, that not even they could come to understand him or his vision? At best, only one of these characters was able to acknowledge the cause of his loneliness. But even he wasn't able to really understand Aizen.

Quote:
It seems to me Aizen's story was supposed to be a Citizen Kane type deal: y'know, guy becomes filthy rich and aggressively rises to power then we find out on his deathbed that what he truly desired was the simple life he had when was a child living in poverty.

Aizen's goals were what he believed he was meant to do and what he thought he wanted, but deep down he was still just lonely.
I wonder if I'd have to watch that film all the way through to truly understand what makes such a twist so compelling. Because at a glance it just sounds anti-climactic--much like the entirety of the Deicide arc.
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Old 2011-09-04, 17:34   Link #910
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Aizen was stronger than anybody else--well we know for a fact that he wasn't. Even if we wanted to assume that this statement was meant to be interpreted as how Aizen viewed himself as oppose to a concrete fact it doesn't completely add up if we stop to acknowledge the fact that there were clearly times in this series when he's openly acknowledged others to have intelligence or strength that rivaled and/or surpassed his own. So how could Aizen feel he was better than everyone else when we know he's able to admit it if someone is better than himself at something?
Yes. Just like Noitora claimed he was strongest espada and Kenpachi claims he's the greatest swordsman. The fact that these characters were surrounded by others with strength that clearly rivaled or was superior to their own didn't curb their own ego. Aizen's incredible strength was the basis for his extreme narcissism but his belief in his superiority doesn't hinge on him being better than everyone at everything, it's his belief that he's meant to be better than everyone else.

Quote:
because of this, he was lonely and misunderstood by everyone. --well if we're to believe that his strength was the cause of his loneliness and much misunderstanding, then why was it that even after getting to know 2 characters who's power surpassed his own, that not even they could come to understand him or his vision? At best, only one of these characters was able to acknowledge the cause of his loneliness. But even he wasn't able to really understand Aizen.
Ichigo mention Aizen had probably given up on finding acceptance. It's true we don't know a lot of his past, but likely he was already convinced that his superiority was inherent entering the Gotei 13. To make a comparison: if seeing that the Gotei 13 had many people that were kind and lawful didn't change Tousen's perspective that the whole organization was rotten and unjust because of his friend's murder, would seeing a few people with strength or intelligence rivaling his own convince Aizen to rethink his perspective? .


Quote:
I wonder if I'd have to watch that film all the way through to truly understand what makes such a twist so compelling. Because at a glance it just sounds anti-climactic--much like the entirety of the Deicide arc.
No, you don't. The reason the ending is famous isn't because of the shock value. It's because it sends out a very earnest message about the basic needs of humanity. I'm not making a direct comparison to the film, but I can kind of see a parallel. Aizen tried to "outgrow" his loneliness by becoming a god, but he couldn't.
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Old 2011-09-04, 17:54   Link #911
sayde
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yes. Just like Noitora claimed he was strongest espada and Kenpachi claims he's the greatest swordsman. The fact that these characters were surrounded by others with strength that clearly rivaled or was superior to their own didn't curb their own ego.
Those are actually very good points. But it doesn't make it any less perplexing. And once again, this is an issue more so directed at Kubo. Why would he make characters state such things when even the characters themselves have got to know that they're wrong? I mean it's very common for characters to tout their own horns in a genre such as this, but most of the time I see it happen, it at least comes from characters who have plausible reasons to explain their ignorance.
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
If seeing that the Gotei 13 had many people that were kind and lawful didn't change Tousen's perspective that the whole organization was rotten and unjust because of his friend's murder, would seeing a few people with strength or intelligence rivaling his own convince Aizen to rethink his perspective?
The statement in question doesn't necessarily imply that meeting rivals of Aizen's level should've been able to shift his own perspective and visions. On the contrary, it implied that those rivals should've been able to come to understand him better than they did. However, since they didn't, I find it difficult to draw a correlation between Aizen's power and his inability to be understood.
Quote:
No, you don't. The reason the ending is famous isn't because of the shock value. It's because it sends out a very earnest message about the basic needs of humanity. I'm not making a direct comparison to the film, but I can kind of see a parallel. Aizen tried to "outgrow" his loneliness by becoming a god, but he couldn't.
Point taken.
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Old 2011-09-05, 01:38   Link #912
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Aizen tried to "outgrow" his loneliness by becoming a god, but he couldn't.
hmmm...so aizen is kind of like the persona that they called "father" in full metal alchemist. he tried to cope with his loneliness by creating other homunculi, ridding himself of all the imperfections of humanity and becoming an all powerful god. that's an interesting concept...the only difference is aizen's past was never revealed so we don't really know what pushed him to become such a person.
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Old 2011-09-05, 09:25   Link #913
toriko
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complaining about bleach these days is like stucking your head in sewer and saying it stinks,Whenever I think of what this manga could have
been compared to what it actually is I get mad...
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Old 2011-09-05, 19:41   Link #914
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yes. Just like Noitora claimed he was strongest espada
Thought it was just he had the strongest hiero? I could buy into that since his offense wasn't anything special.
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Old 2011-09-05, 21:40   Link #915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toriko View Post
complaining about bleach these days is like stucking your head in sewer and saying it stinks,Whenever I think of what this manga could have
been compared to what it actually is I get mad...
Sad but True.
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Old 2011-09-06, 21:21   Link #916
ronin myael
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complaining about bleach these days is like stucking your head in sewer and saying it stinks,Whenever I think of what this manga could have
been compared to what it actually is I get mad...
in other words, there's no use complaining when you know everyone knows it sucks! lol
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Old 2011-09-15, 07:50   Link #917
Marcus H.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toriko
complaining about bleach these days is like stucking your head in sewer and saying it stinks,Whenever I think of what this manga could have
been compared to what it actually is I get mad...
...And repetitively pointing that out is a fruitful thing?

On topic, well, there are problems with the Deicide Arc, including Aizen's many transformations. It's not that it's awful; it's just like Aizen's already given up fighting when he's already in the lead. Well, it might be the point there, since it looked like Aizen practically gave up everything when Ichigo became much stronger than him and proved that point so hard.
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Old 2011-09-15, 22:12   Link #918
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
You're hardly the only who feels that way. Believe me. Especially since Kubo's claim of Aizen being "stronger than anybody else" isn't even completely true. Among the Gotei 13 he had at least one person to rival his intelligence and another person who's power surpassed his own since the moment he joined.
Yes but he made them his bitches along with everyone else---Aizen is the Bishop Don Juan of the Mangaverse. His Pimp Game is tight...

Besides Kubo didn't "claim Aizen was stronger than everyone else. "Aizen did. It's Hubris....Aizen believed that he was better than everyone else. Therefore he should be the one to rule, and Kubo built him up then broke his ass down, because he wasn't.

not to mention that Aizen is a representation of Lucifer/Satan/The Devil. The reason his form was Seraph with six wings. If you touch a seraph your body will burn..disintegrate. Edit:
That's also why he had that fugly form...If you read the bible, angels are some fugly mofo's, some are described as having SIXHEADS and the body of some kind of creature. Aizen is a fallen angel who thought that he was better than god and took 1/3 of angels with him and they battled and he was cast out in the lower depths of hell ..sound familiar?





Look familiar? There is a reason that Kubo does the things he does...you just have to "THINK" about it.
If you look at these paintings..you will see someone with armor, like Findor--a Chimera--seafood --there is even one that has a bird form like the fraccion Kira beheaded...but I don't where I put it


Also intelligence is a strength. He did have a rival...which is Urahara but Aizen was the pioneer, and Urahara just improved on what he created. If anything , they're equally smart...just Urahara is better at certain things, than Aizen and vice versa. Aizen was so confident, and arrogant that he had no problem admitting when someone was better at something---even if it was condescending because he'd be telling him how they were still his bitches "Tools" ---

Because no matter what he was still better than them all around, and they merely excelled in one area. (<---So he thought)That's why he unraveled when Ichigo laid the smackdown on that a$$. Because no one ever did that before...still. you say
Quote:
Among the Gotei 13 he had at least one person to rival his intelligence and another person who's power surpassed his own since the moment he joined.
Dude that's 2 people, in the entire cast. Aizen single-handedly beat 16 mofo's at one time--17 if you count him making Yama pwn himself. NO ONE in the Bleacherverse ever did that. Which means that 95% of Aizen's claims were true

You gotta respect his gangsta. You might not believe now, but one day you will. Aizen makes believers... That's how he got me. I went from hater to devoted follower because---Aizen is the pimp of all pimps and pimped the entire cast. THIS CANNOT BE DENIED. Even if you don't like him you can't say he that wasn't winning for 109 years...damn that's a helluva record. No one in Bleach can top that
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.it's just like Aizen's already given up fighting when he's already in the lead. Well, it might be the point there, since it looked like Aizen practically gave up everything when Ichigo became much stronger than him and proved that point so hard.
...Why do people say that? That puzzles me..because Urahara, Yourichi and Isshin were going at him hard and they couldn't touch him. They couldn't hurt him---

He didn't stop fighting, he was testing his new form and like he said "There is no reason to dodge anymore" He became immortal, he didn't stop fighting, he just didn't have to....

Last edited by Lord of Pandemonium; 2011-09-15 at 22:45.
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Old 2011-09-16, 00:23   Link #919
sayde
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I'm going to start this post off by getting something off my chest once and for all LoP. I hardly ever agree with any of your opinions when it comes to Bleach. So I try my best to refrain from responding to most of your posts here. I've gotten to the point where I feel content to let you have your opinion without debate more often than not (regardless of how much I may disagree with your PoV) as I like to think it does both you and I favor each week as we save ourselves precious time and energy debating on matters we're likely never going to see eye-to-eye on.

Besides, you seem to already have a couple of members on this board who don't mind getting into extremely long and elaborate debates with you. So why add one more member into the mix? Unfortunately, my will power has yet to develop enough to ignore all comments from you aimed directly at me. Therefore, I'm responding to your reply this time. However, in the future, I hope you can try to ignore future posts of mine you don't agree with in the same way I try hard to ignore yours. This way, this debate can be one of the last times we ever have to do this. Sorry if that sounds offensive.

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Kubo didn't "claim Aizen was stronger than everyone else. "Aizen did.
The direct translated quote from the databook states "Aizen was stronger than anybody else". Those are Kubo's words stated outside the context of a manga chapter. It didn't come from a characters mouth. It was intended to be a stated fact by the author aimed directly at the readers. Aizen can't and has never made a claim about himself in the 3rd person in the past tense like that.

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Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium View Post
Aizen is a representation of Lucifer/Satan/The Devil. The reason his form was Seraph with six wings. If you touch a seraph your body will burn..disintegrate. Edit:
That's also why he had that fugly form...If you read the bible, angels are some fugly mofo's, some are described as having SIXHEADS and the body of some kind of creature. Aizen is a fallen angel who thought that he was better than god and took 1/3 of angels with him and they battled and he was cast out in the lower depths of hell ..sound familiar?





Look familiar? There is a reason that Kubo does the things he does...you just have to "THINK" about it.
If you look at these paintings..you will see someone with armor, like Findor--a Chimera--seafood --there is even one that has a bird form like the fraccion Kira beheaded...but I don't where I put it
*scratches head*
Your intepretations of what Aizen is and what you think Kubo wants you to do with his work are your own business. You can think & overthink his work as much as you want. But that entire point became irrelevant upon seeing that it's based on the fact that we're interpreting a single statement in two completely different ways. Because you insist on believing that Kubo didn't "claim Aizen was stronger than everyone else. "Aizen did, you ended up branching off into a tangent under that premise posting things that felt rather irrelevant.
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Aizen was the pioneer, and Urahara just improved on what he created.
Going by this instance, one could argue Urahara was actually smarter. Yes Aizen may have come up with the original idea for the hougyoku, but Urahara also came up with the idea *on his own* and developed a superior version of it in the process. So who do you give more credit to? The guy who came up with the idea first on his own but produced the more inferior result? Or the other guy who also came up with the idea on his own and produced a superior result? Either way though, I don't know why you addressed this point as I clearly implied both Aizen and Urahara to rival one another in the area of intelligence as you also claimed.

In hindsight, it's even debatable as to whether Aizen truly surpassed Urahara's fighting prowess since we have by Aizen's own admission that Urahara successfully pulled off a tactic during battle that could have very well destroyed him had he still been in his base form. Add that to the fact that we have never once seen Urahara go all-out and/or get beaten in the canon by anyone except for Aizen in a powered-up state. So even if we wanted to try and believe that Aizen was superior to Urahara because his combined intelligence and strength has always surpassed his rival, that would still be VERY debatable. Urahara's combined strength & intelligence has proven to be nothing less than a force you do not want to mess with if you can help it.

Quote:
no matter what he was still better than them all around, and they merely excelled in one area. (<---So he thought)That's why he unraveled when Ichigo laid the smackdown on that a$$. Because no one ever did that before...
You're implying that Aizen was able to remain feeling calm, cool, arrogant, and superior so long as he felt his opponent didn't rival or surpass him in more than one area. So according to your logic, why did Aizen unravel when Ichigo came to surpass him in only one area? Between brains and brawn, Aizen still had Ichigo's intellect beaten by the same comparable gap that Ichigo had Aizen's fighting power beaten in his FGT state.

Quote:
Dude that's 2 people, in the entire cast.
Once again, the quote Kubo himself gave us was that "Aizen was stronger than anybody else". It only takes ONE person to prove that claim false--and we have two established characters who fit the bill with a third character (who arguably rivals him in every way) to boot. The number of opponents Aizen defeated "at one time" is a moot point. I'm not even sure how him beating 16 or 17 guys at one time is even relevant or how it makes 95% of Kubo's claim true all of a sudden.

Quote:
You gotta respect his gangsta. You might not believe now, but one day you will. Aizen makes believers... That's how he got me. I went from hater to devoted follower because---Aizen is the pimp of all pimps and pimped the entire cast. THIS CANNOT BE DENIED. Even if you don't like him you can't say he that wasn't winning for 109 years...damn that's a helluva record.
You don't need to try and sell Aizen to me. He's literally the biggest reason I choose to keep up with Bleach--even now. I also wouldn't devote hundreds of hours into making a fan animation of him if I wasn't a devoted fan. So when I feel Kubo does or states things to ruin or contradict his character, I'm not always quiet about it.
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Old 2011-09-16, 00:49   Link #920
Marcus H.
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"There is no reason to dodge anymore" He became immortal, he didn't stop fighting, he just didn't have to....
Well, he losing the need to fight can be considered to be giving up fighting (although it's because he thinks the outcome is predictable already). Aizen looked like an Immovable Object for a moment there until Ichigo, the Unstoppable Force, came to give Aizen a taste of reality.
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