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Old 2012-01-19, 22:14   Link #981
rei_ayanami17
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
The worst thing i've seen Aizen do is be completely and utterly boring. Seriously Aizen essentially proved to me that you CAN have a villain that's TOO powerful. Instead of getting any kind of enjoyment out of his character I was just bored out of my mind.
Hmm…why boring? You can never find a villain character that utters magnificently, believe me……….usually, shonen villains just go trash talk and act and pose as if they are great or cool but they’re NOT……..Aizen proves to us everything but some of us failed to see and recognize it because we hate villains and what we love to see from them is to lose and fail against our main character,. That’s why at the end of the day we’ll say that the villain is worthless, boring and no match against the main character.

If you knew Lelouch Lamperouge, he’s my favorite villain but he’s the main protagonist. He uses his brain and start with shred amount of power of Geass to conquer the world (with good reason) much like Aizen who start chaos with just only his shikai (with unjustified reason). They are both really cool in delivering their principles and plans.
This is not yet the dead end for Aizen, there so much more to reveal like his Bankai, his past, his reasons and his finale, doesn’t that make you excited at all?......if not, then I wonder why you read Bleach. There is nothing for me to keep following this series other than that……….and yeah, add up my shipping hahaha…XD

I wonder how everyone will react when Aizen returns…...when Aizen returns, please try to appreciate and recognize it that in that time, he proves to us AGAIN how great he is.


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Originally Posted by sayde View Post

...on top of never so much as mentioning a thing regarding his bankai.

In the end, I think Kubo had all the proper elements in place to have Aizen lose in a way that felt *more* plausible--he just didn't take advantage of these things at all. For instance, we all knew Ichigo was going to eventually conquer his hollow side and get much stronger for it. But Kubo didn't have to make him THAT strong. Had he shown up to the final battle on par with Aizen (or perhaps a little weaker), then it would've felt much more believable. Kubo also could've allowed Ichigo to freely utilize more hollow abilities and techniques (such as cero's and instant regeneration) for the sake of leveling the playing field. In any case, making Ichigo suddenly more OP than Aizen was not an effective idea. It resulted in perhaps the most anti-climactic final showdown I've ever seen in the genre to date.

Kubo also didn't have to give Aizen several power-ups he didn't need. I didn't think it was neccessary or wise to have him suddenly lose to Isshin after taking down so many VC's and captains. At the rate he was going, Kubo should've just let him defeat Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi without having to transform. His first post-chrysalis form should've been held off until his final battle with Ichigo. And the rest of those transformations shouldn't have happened at all.

It was also silly to dumb Aizen down for the sake of making him lose. Why couldn't Ichigo find a way to legitimately overcome hypnosis? Why have it go ignored the entire battle? This guy created the perfect character to counter his ability. And after spending the entire arc being the damsel in distress, I feel it would've been awesome for her to have a major role in his defeat. So why not have written the plot to allow Orihime to be useful at the most critical moment? The girl can reject virtually anything Kubo wants--including death itself apparently. Rejecting hypnosis should've been no problem.

Aizen was indeed powerful. In fact, he was so powerful, that I don't think anyone would've complained much if a more genuine team effort was used to take him down. However, I don't think he was too powerful. At least not to the point where Kubo had to resort to some major quick and easy asspulls just for Ichigo to win. There were much better ways he could've gone about it.
^ i seconded, XD
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Old 2012-01-19, 22:19   Link #982
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This is not yet the dead end for Aizen, there so much more to reveal like his Bankai, his past, his reasons and his finale, doesn’t that make you excited at all?......if not, then I wonder why you read Bleach. There is nothing for me to keep following this series other than that……….and yeah, add up my shipping hahaha…XD
The problem with Aizen is that these are all things we should have seen back before he was taken out the first time, but didn't. At this point, I really don't care anymore.
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Old 2012-01-19, 22:36   Link #983
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^ i understand how you feel, but that's Kubo's style, all we can do is to complain but nothing will change...........let's just wait and see, like i said before, give Aizen a second chance and so hopefully everything can work out.........perhaps, this is just a matter of understanding, pal.
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Old 2012-01-20, 01:22   Link #984
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Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
^ i understand how you feel, but that's Kubo's style, all we can do is to complain but nothing will change...........let's just wait and see, like i said before, give Aizen a second chance and so hopefully everything can work out.........perhaps, this is just a matter of understanding, pal.
At this point, it would be already too late but I am willing to accept Aizen if Kubo can write him better.
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Old 2012-01-20, 14:16   Link #985
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people are makeing oc's like Aizen's Reigai in an attempt to rewrite his charater and make him a descently well well written charater
http://arrancarfighter.deviantart.co...2?moodonly=158
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Old 2012-01-20, 15:06   Link #986
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Originally Posted by Chiisai Kuma View Post
people are makeing oc's like Aizen's Reigai in an attempt to rewrite his charater and make him a descently well well written charater
http://arrancarfighter.deviantart.co...2?moodonly=158
I'm lovin it. That has the potential to be good material for the next filler arc.
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Old 2012-01-20, 16:00   Link #987
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the oc creators usually do a better job than kubo most days, it just matters what bleach OC universe your following. zanpacto- leader was the first person i saw make a fullbring OC and strangely not only does the artwork look as though thre animators worked on it but the OC's MAKE SENCE! gotta love bleach oc's do you have a fave?
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Old 2012-01-20, 17:21   Link #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I'm lovin it. That has the potential to be good material for the next filler arc.
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Originally Posted by Chiisai Kuma View Post
the oc creators usually do a better job than kubo most days, it just matters what bleach OC universe your following. zanpacto- leader was the first person i saw make a fullbring OC and strangely not only does the artwork look as though thre animators worked on it but the OC's MAKE SENCE! gotta love bleach oc's do you have a fave?
What is jarring about this is that these are very good ideas. Kubo could had gone in that direction with Aizen and Renji, Renji just feel by the wayside in canon and Aizen is so flat as a villain it is not even funny.
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Old 2012-01-20, 18:30   Link #989
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Originally Posted by Chiisai Kuma View Post
the oc creators usually do a better job than kubo most days, it just matters what bleach OC universe your following. zanpacto- leader was the first person i saw make a fullbring OC and strangely not only does the artwork look as though thre animators worked on it but the OC's MAKE SENCE! gotta love bleach oc's do you have a fave?
I'm slow and having some difficulty making sense of the exact meaning of "OC". So even though I understand what its related to, I'd be glad to answer your question if you or some else can define it for me first.
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Old 2012-01-20, 20:39   Link #990
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I'm slow and having some difficulty making sense of the exact meaning of "OC". So even though I understand what its related to, I'd be glad to answer your question if you or some else can define it for me first.
OC means 'Original Character' usually referring to a made up character by a fan artist. in these cases they are original characters set in the bleach universe and look similar to kubo's style, but are completely fan made and not in any way part of the official bleach universe.
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Old 2012-01-20, 22:24   Link #991
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Thanks for the informative answer. I had a feeling "original character" was what it meant. But to answer the question, I was asked, I'd have to say no. I don't have a favorite OC since I don't follow those types of fanmade works. Though after seeing what Chiisa Kuma posted, I'm very tempted to start checking some more out for myself.
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Old 2012-01-20, 22:40   Link #992
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Thanks for the informative answer. I had a feeling "original character" was what it meant. But to answer the question, I was asked, I'd have to say no. I don't have a favorite OC since I don't follow those types of fanmade works. Though after seeing what Chiisa Kuma posted, I'm very tempted to start checking some more out for myself.
This. I checked out the link posted and liked some of the work on canon characters (particularly Vizard!Renji, and the Vizard form of Ichigo's new Bankai), but I really can't bring myself to care about OCs. They are really well done, though that's all I can say on them.
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Old 2012-01-20, 22:59   Link #993
Chiisai Kuma
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I made a HUGE post that took me an hr to write up and find all the referace images for, when i clicked "post" my internet cut out and now all the info on oc's that i typed out is gone i hate when that happens. I'll try and post it again tomorrow, im too tired and angry to try again tonight.
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Old 2012-01-21, 02:21   Link #994
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Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17 View Post
Hmm…why boring? You can never find a villain character that utters magnificently, believe me……….usually, shonen villains just go trash talk and act and pose as if they are great or cool but they’re NOT……..Aizen proves to us everything but some of us failed to see and recognize it because we hate villains and what we love to see from them is to lose and fail against our main character,. That’s why at the end of the day we’ll say that the villain is worthless, boring and no match against the main character.

If you knew Lelouch Lamperouge, he’s my favorite villain but he’s the main protagonist. He uses his brain and start with shred amount of power of Geass to conquer the world (with good reason) much like Aizen who start chaos with just only his shikai (with unjustified reason). They are both really cool in delivering their principles and plans.
Everybody loves a good villain; sure we expect them to be beaten but if a villain is good then we will be entertained by their evil. Frankly Aizen's perfection was what helped made him so boring. When it comes down to it, alot of his plans we not brilliant so much as they were convoluted because he didn't need them. The Decide Arc basically rendered the entire HM/winter war arcs, and all of aizen's work in those arcs utterly meaningless. Why? because as it turns out Aizen never needed ANY of his minions nor ANY of his plans (he didn't even need to be a genius)... he was so powerful that he was able to take on the all of the captains plus the vizards solo without so much as breaking a sweat. Really reading though those chapters as the captains wee seemingly getting one up Aizen, I was just rolling my eyes; he was so perfect that nothing could touch him and in turn i found no reason to be invested in anything he was doing... in fact kubo couldn't even figure out how Ichigo could beat Aizen's shikai and basically has to make it conveniently evolve out of existence.


Hell Lelouche is a terrible comparison to bring up with Aizen. Lelouche had more layers to his character and as far as being a villain goes he was flawed. He could make the most brilliant plans but time and again we are showed that his plans are not full proof; At times he would have to desperately make up new plans as he went to compensate for the unforeseen factors or things he underestimated. A Strategist who can create a perfect and flawless plan is unbelievable; a truly great strategist is one who knows how to roll with the fight, using his brains to compensate for the ever changing battle (ofcourse Aizen was so powerful that he never needed to really compensate for the unforeseen). Hell another major flaw was that while he had a great power and had great intelligence, he was still physically weak. He couldn't hold his own in a straight up fight and thus relied on his brains or his subordinates to fight.

This is very much unlike Aizen who was perfectly overpowered. He also didn't have any real depth to his character... the closest he got was this whole idea of him secretly wishing he was weaker which just didn't make much sense for him.

Quote:
This is not yet the dead end for Aizen, there so much more to reveal like his Bankai, his past, his reasons and his finale, doesn’t that make you excited at all?......if not, then I wonder why you read Bleach. There is nothing for me to keep following this series other than that……….and yeah, add up my shipping hahaha…XD

I wonder how everyone will react when Aizen returns…...when Aizen returns, please try to appreciate and recognize it that in that time, he proves to us AGAIN how great he is.
Nope, because Aizen has already proved himself a failure of a villain. I took no enjoyment in watching him work after the SS arc and that has given me no reason to have any further interest. He was decent enough in SS when he was fresh and new, but then Kubo over milked him and his abilities as the series went on. Kubo had his chance, but he blew it; Aizen started off good enough that kubo could have built up the interest but instead he just became dull. Any interest i had in his characters has died by this point
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Old 2012-01-26, 23:02   Link #995
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In the end, I think Kubo had all the proper elements in place to have Aizen lose in a way that felt *more* plausible--he just didn't take advantage of these things at all. For instance, we all knew Ichigo was going to eventually conquer his hollow side and get much stronger for it. But Kubo didn't have to make him THAT strong. Had he shown up to the final battle on par with Aizen (or perhaps a little weaker), then it would've felt much more believable.
It's basically a given that when the hero gains new powers it has to be shown how awesome they are. When Ichigo got bankai he immediately got a upper hand against Byakuya. When he got control of the mask, he started dominating Grimmjow in their fight (albeit GJ was minus an arm). I wasn't really surprised when Ichigo showed up from his training far more powerful than Aizen. However, there's usually a see-saw type deal w/ these things--either the hero somehow powers down and loses his advantage or the opponent reveals an ace in their sleeve and powers up to match the hero.

Kubo usually goes the former route and has Ichigo lose his power at inopportune times. I was expecting him to do something similar again when Mugetsu failed. It could've been a great twist... Ichigo going from having the fight in the bag to being nearly powerless in an instant. Having nothing but guts and a prayer against an Aizen who was maybe weakened from battle, but still a crazy strong motherf**ker.

But no, Urahara swooped in and handled everything with magic.

And that's where things ultimately failed for me. As powerful as Ichigo was, he still managed to be utterly ineffective against Aizen. Really, he was just a distraction until Urahara could save the day. That's no treatment for the main character.
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Old 2012-01-27, 00:28   Link #996
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It's basically a given that when the hero gains new powers it has to be shown how awesome they are.
It's true. Especially within a genre such as this. However, just because new powers are gained, doesn't mean the good guy has to dominate from beginning to end. Depending on the disparity in power implied to exist between the main protagonist and the big bad, it sometimes becomes more than enough just for the protagonist's new powers to allow him to stand on equal footing with the antagonist at all. Because that alone can serve as an adequate testament to how "awesome" the protagonists new powers are in certain cases. I'd argue Ichigo vs Aizen to be one of them.

Unlike Ichigo's bouts against Byakuya and Grimmjow (and even Ulquiorra), the ginormous disparity in power that Ichigo had to close just to rival Aizen's base strength was arguably already greater than the gap Ichigo initially had to close just to rival these other major enemies. Whats more is that none of those major enemies were benefited with several extra power boosts prior to their defeat. So to have Ichigo arrive on the scene more powerful than base Aizen and all the powers he gained (and then would continue to gain throughout the course of the battle) felt unbelievable, disappointing, anti-climactic, and confusing, among many other things.

As for Aizen's defeat, that whole mess has the potential to become another debate in and of itself TBH. From the way I view it, thanks to the question Ichigo proposed to Urahara in the next chapter on top of the things Kubo confirmed in the databooks, I've become one of those readers who finds it difficult to give more credit over the other to either Ichigo or Urahara. Because had Aizen not subconsciously desired to lose his powers after Ichigo sacrificed his own, who's to say he would've been weakened enough for Urahara's Kido to take effect? So assuming the hogyouku really did merely grant Aizen's wish, then Urahara's role becomes more irrelevant. Because regardless of Urahara's actions, Aizen would've been left completely powerless (except for his immortality) either way. And with no shinigami or hollow powers left, he was getting captured sooner or later without a doubt.
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Old 2012-01-27, 08:27   Link #997
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It's true. Especially within a genre such as this. However, just because new powers are gained, doesn't mean the good guy has to dominate from beginning to end. Depending on the disparity in power implied to exist between the main protagonist and the big bad, it sometimes becomes more than enough just for the protagonist's new powers to allow him to stand on equal footing with the antagonist at all. Because that alone can serve as an adequate testament to how "awesome" the protagonists new powers are in certain cases. I'd argue Ichigo vs Aizen to be one of them.
Well, it's not just about logically knowing they're stronger, it's about getting to see the character be a total badass. Putting bad guys in their place, making cool one liners and all that. The best way to do that is to have the hero dominate someone strong right after when they gain new level of power. It doesn't have to be the main villain. For example (and I really don't like to compare DBZ, but it has good examples) when Goku shows up fresh from training and pounds the crap out of Nappa with ease. His fight with Vegeta was a struggle, but Nappa served to show that he was indeed on a new level of strength. When it's the main villain that's when sometimes there's a "see-saw"... hero powers up, villain powers up again, hero again...rinse & repeat. Vegeta curbstomp Cell in 2nd form after training (even though that form alone was way, way stronger than any enemy encountered at that point) then Cell goes Perfect and things switch.

Not that aren't exceptions, but a lot of the times the hero's not going show up after a huge power-up and merely get by, even if just fighting on par with the opponent should be a huge feat in itself.

In Ichigo's case all the reasonably strong subordinates who might've made a good showcase of his increased strength were already dead. So Aizen himself was made the punchingbag.

Quote:
I've become one of those readers who finds it difficult to give more credit over the other to either Ichigo or Urahara. Because had Aizen not subconsciously desired to lose his powers after Ichigo sacrificed his own, who's to say he would've been weakened enough for Urahara's Kido to take effect?
That's true and really there's little doubt that Ichigo's attack caused the moment of weakness that allowed Urahara's kidou to take effect. But all in all, Ichigo's involvement, though it was crucial, was very indirectly responsible for Aizen's defeat compared with Urahara's kidou and the hougyoku. I might've even been ok with that if there was more of a confrontation like you suggested. What it comes down to, is that after Ichigo performed Mugetsu, I think there was a prime window of opportunity for Ichigo to have a real struggle with Aizen... him rapidly losing his powers while Aizen pressed an attack would've been interesting to see, but Kubo rushed to the conclusion.
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Old 2013-05-02, 12:07   Link #998
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The only good parts of the final Aizen/Ichigo fight were Mugetsu's design and to finally see Aizen lose his cocky arrogant tone and actually shit himself when he realised he couldn't just make it all go away with one swing of his sword anymore
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Old 2013-05-03, 10:55   Link #999
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^I like the ichigo aizen fight but it was more of a series ending fight than a mid-series one. it was too god-level to go to fullbring stuff and quincies at this point
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Old 2013-05-08, 06:48   Link #1000
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Originally Posted by Chiisai Kuma View Post
I made a HUGE post that took me an hr to write up and find all the referace images for, when i clicked "post" my internet cut out and now all the info on oc's that i typed out is gone i hate when that happens. I'll try and post it again tomorrow, im too tired and angry to try again tonight.
Thanks for your efforts anyway. I know how that feels.

One thing I would like to mention, although many people probably already have, is that Ichigo is one of the weakest main characters, that I know. He is just too passive. All his actions are in fact reactionary measures that are more or less dictated by his enemies. There is no overall goal and no inherent conflict that needs to be overcome. But those are elemental parts of a good story. A good story is driven by a central conflict, caused by a protagonist's goal and inevitable opposing forces. Well, it certainly does not have to be that way, necessarily. I'm not saying that a story needs to follow a specific scheme, but there's a reason why so many good movies, comics and games do.

Look at One Piece for example. The main character has a goal. And that goal is not something that only appears as the result of a bad guy showing up and threatening the people you love. No, it is an active goal, something that the character wants to achieve regardless. Obviously for Luffy, that is becoming the king of pirates. This goal in and of itself poses a strong conflict for the story. Becoming the king of pirates requires becoming more succesful than your competitors and of course turning on the marines and therefore the law. In order to achieve his goal, the main character has to become a criminal. We know this from the first episode on. And from that first episode on, this conflic suggests that there will have to be great sacrifices. Knowing this is what makes a story interesting. And finding out how a character learns to overcome this conflict (or fails to do so) is what makes the character interesting.

Now look at Bleach. What is the underlying goal of it all, where is the essential conflict, that goes beyond just defeating the bad guys, which is part of nearly any action series, and therefore not especially interesting in and of itself? I certainly can't find one. One might argue that a 15 year old boy trying to face those overwhelming responsibilities as a shinigami is the essential conflict. And maybe it is. But That's a pretty poor one in my opinion. It may fill a movie, but not a 500+ chapters series, especially not when with every new friend he makes and with every new foe he forces, this struggle is starting to begin anew.
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