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Old 2007-11-01, 21:31   Link #1
Frenchie
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[Manga] Elemental Affinities

All right, I'd like to settle this once and for all, because it's been bugging me:

It seems like a lot of people believe you can control all elements by "training" and that elemental affinity just determines your strongest element.

1. Kakashi: Doton, Suiton, Raiton. (Katon was anime-filler and I will ignore it.)

2. Naruto: Fuuton.

3. Sandaime: Doton, Katon.

-------

From these three examples: You have people limited in their number of elemental affinities. Even Kakashi, which was told to be the "copy" ninja. To me this means the sharingan can copy only: Techniques related to the Elemental affinities of the user, and Yin and Yang chakra molding.

Why was it made such a big deal of Kakuzu possessing all elemental affinities?

And finally, most recently, it was said that Pein possesses all elemental jutsus which no person can have. His eyes could learn any type of elemental jutsu and whatever Jiraiya did chuck at him in teaching, he'd handle it no problem.

I think this calls for a conclusion:

-Elemental affinities are genetic. (Kakuzu has to be the only exception)
-Elemental affinities cannot be taught.

-The Sharingan may not copy jutsu from outside the user's elements. (Although it can still understand the move)
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Old 2007-11-02, 01:24   Link #2
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you dont know what sarutobi could do because we only saw him in one fight.
he could use all jutsu in konoha and you would thin ktaht means all elements.
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Old 2007-11-02, 07:00   Link #3
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Originally Posted by Kowai View Post
you dont know what sarutobi could do because we only saw him in one fight.
he could use all jutsu in konoha and you would thin ktaht means all elements.
We're not sure if they meant all jutsu every person in Konoha is capable of (not likely), or all jutsu that are Konoha exclusives such as shadow bind.
It'd seem only reasonable though..for a grandpa hokage to be capable of all elements.

Quote:
From these three examples: You have people limited in their number of elemental affinities. Even Kakashi, which was told to be the "copy" ninja. To me this means the sharingan can copy only: Techniques related to the Elemental affinities of the user, and Yin and Yang chakra molding.
Sharingan can't copy anything. The user copies, so long as whatever the eye sees is something the user is technically capable of. Thus in a sense you're right.

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Why was it made such a big deal of Kakuzu possessing all elemental affinities?
Quote:
-Elemental affinities are genetic. (Kakuzu has to be the only exception)
Actually, it's even much less of a deal. Kakuzu's no exception at all, he just simply found a loophole since he discovered the heart is what's responsible for the affinities of people. It's not impossible for anyone to use all elements (technically, at least) even without the right affinity, just very difficult since it's supposed to take years before you finally master an element. Naruto, Sasuke, Pein and Kakuzu are exceptions, because of TajuuKB, Sharingan, Rinnegan, and heart ripping.

Last edited by Xrayz0r; 2007-11-02 at 07:17.
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Old 2007-11-02, 07:29   Link #4
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Quote:
you dont know what sarutobi could do because we only saw him in one fight.
he could use all jutsu in konoha and you would thin ktaht means all elements.
That was just hype. There was clearly quite a few jutsus he didn't know and/or was surprised by during his fight against Orochimaru. If he did have all jutsus and all elements, then why only showcase fire and earth?

Quote:
We're not sure if they meant all jutsu every person in Konoha is capable of (not likely), or all jutsu that are Konoha exclusives such as shadow bind.
It'd seem only reasonable though..for a grandpa hokage to be capable of all elements.
Why would it seem reasonable? Having two elements is already a big thing. According to Kakashi, jounins generally have two.

"And finally, most recently, it was said that Pein possesses all elemental jutsus which no person can have. His eyes could learn any type of elemental jutsu and whatever Jiraiya did chuck at him in teaching, he'd handle it no problem."

Quote:
Sharingan can't copy anything. The user copies, so long as whatever the eye sees is something the user is technically capable of. Thus in a sense you're right.
Indeed. The restriction seems to be elemental affinities. It seems that taijutsu is quite easily copied, however, no matter how tough.
Quote:
It's not impossible for anyone to use all elements (technically, at least) even without the right affinity, just very difficult since it's supposed to take years before you finally master an element. Naruto, Sasuke, Pein and Kakuzu are exceptions, because of TajuuKB, Sharingan, Rinnegan, and heart ripping.
No. Training to be able to control and use your elemental affinity is what takes years to do. Not training a new element. It was never said, and in the latest chapters, Jiraiya stated it as impossible to achieve.

All elements seems to be something that has been achieved by the Rinnegan alone, and Kakuzu, who found a 'loophole' as you said. Tajuu KB and Sharingan don't have anything to do with elemental affinities. They're techniques that allow the user to train somewhat more efficiently.
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Old 2007-11-02, 07:35   Link #5
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hasen't this been discussed like a billion times?
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Old 2007-11-02, 08:07   Link #6
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No. Training to be able to control and use your elemental affinity is what takes years to do. Not training a new element. It was never said, and in the latest chapters, Jiraiya stated it as impossible to achieve.
Well then, isn't his own statement a contradiction already? ..No one can do it, yet Pein does it.. Logic implies: if by some method Pein can do it, there might be other methods.
If Rinnegan is somewhat similar to Sharingan, its basic workings are based on understanding. Like a mind thing, not physical. Thus achievements that are thought to be impossible (note: by normal means) become possible because the eye speedens up the process (of learning).

Only we've got no clue what Rinnegan does yet.. all we've got so far is a couple of vague statements.

Quote:
All elements seems to be something that has been achieved by the Rinnegan alone, and Kakuzu, who found a 'loophole' as you said. Tajuu KB and Sharingan don't have anything to do with elemental affinities. They're techniques that allow the user to train somewhat more efficiently.
Yeah. Yet it pretty much depends on your definition of the word. Affinities don't rule out the possibility of learning other elements as well, only with less ease and more struggle and a lot more time required. For instance..a person with long legs we would say, has an affinity to long distance running. That doesn't mean any midget couldn't potentially run just as well if he trained his ass off.

It's still considered impossible for any midget to ever enter the olympics.

Quote:
Indeed. The restriction seems to be elemental affinities.
Among other things, such as chakra control, capicity and so forth. Otherwise Sasuke may have copied Rasengan and KB.

Last edited by Xrayz0r; 2007-11-02 at 08:24.
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Old 2007-11-02, 09:22   Link #7
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Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
That was just hype. There was clearly quite a few jutsus he didn't know and/or was surprised by during his fight against Orochimaru. If he did have all jutsus and all elements, then why only showcase fire and earth?
He used a Fire jutsu (which was blocked by Nidaime's water) and an Earth jutsu (to block Nidaime's water) once. That's about two elemental moves for the whole fight against one of the sannins and two hokages. The rest is anime filler. It's not like he spawned elemental jutsus ones after the others during the fight. And I don't remember him being surprised by any jutsu in the manga. (Except his body transfer thingie of course)

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Why would it seem reasonable? Having two elements is already a big thing. According to Kakashi, jounins generally have two.
My translation says that when ninjas become jounins, they generally have already mastered 2. So if the translation is correct, it pretty means elements can be learned and taught and that 2 is just what they have when they become jounins (when they are still young then), not when their ninjutsu reach their peak.

Quote:
"And finally, most recently, it was said that Pein possesses all elemental jutsus which no person can have. His eyes could learn any type of elemental jutsu and whatever Jiraiya did chuck at him in teaching, he'd handle it no problem."
it said all 6nature of chakra. We are still waiting to know what the sixth one is. It's clearly something different from the 5 others and most likely the rarest one since it wasn't named as a possible affinity by Kakashi when he showed up with his papers.

Last edited by Rahan; 2007-11-02 at 09:58.
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Old 2007-11-02, 09:55   Link #8
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From what I gather is that one can learn to use other affinities, but their natural affinities will always be stronger. If you naturally had two affinities it becomes a BL, but you can use other affinities, but they'll be harder for you to use.

I also don't think that the 3rd knowing jutsus in Konoha was just for hype. One has to remember he was fighting Oro. who had left the village and had been studying jutsus outside of Konoha. So of course the 3rd would not know every jutsu that Oro. has as he's been studying forbidden jutsus in secret, but to be fair the 3rd used atleast 2 elements in the fight against Oro. so that already should answer the question of whether a person can use more than one affinity. Even Kakashi has been shown to use two in that he's created fog, used lightning, and I think he used fire as well.
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Old 2007-11-02, 20:47   Link #9
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I'm not convinced.

Quote:
My translation says that when ninjas become jounins, they generally have already mastered 2. So if the translation is correct, it pretty means elements can be learned and taught and that 2 is just what they have when they become jounins (when they are still young then), not when their ninjutsu reach their peak.
And my translation said jounins generally had two. It wasn't that specific.

It seems to me that you -can't- learn new elements, because elements uses your chakra affinity. Similarly, Naruto has been bragged as a good ninja while being a complete loser. It would fit well that he'd have only one element.

IF, one could learn elemental affinities, with Kage Bunshin, for instance, because it takes "years". Then WHY was Yamato stressing out to Naruto the importance of him being wind to counter Sasuke's raiton, rather than just saying:

"Oh, then, let's start training you with water techniques! With KB, it will be a breeze!"


My conclusion still stands as:

-Genetic.
-Cannot be taught.
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Old 2007-11-02, 21:25   Link #10
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From what I gather is that one can learn to use other affinities, but their natural affinities will always be stronger. If you naturally had two affinities it becomes a BL, but you can use other affinities, but they'll be harder for you to use.
This is also what i understand.
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Old 2007-11-03, 08:33   Link #11
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Quote:
Quote:
From what I gather is that one can learn to use other affinities, but their natural affinities will always be stronger. If you naturally had two affinities it becomes a BL, but you can use other affinities, but they'll be harder for you to use.
This is also what i understand.
As said one post earlier. If it was the case, then why would Yamato emphasize to Naruto so much that he's lucky to be wind in order to counter Sasuke's raiton.

And after explaining his Fuuton would improve Sasuke's Katon, why not -if it can be taught- just teach him water elements, since it seems to be achievable in a few weeks thanks to KB?

Because it can't be taught.
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Old 2007-11-03, 10:25   Link #12
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I think that anybody can learn any elemental jutsu with enough practice. However, being able to mold your chakra into a specific element outside of a specific jutsu, like Naruto's Fuuton moves or the Chidori, actually requires an affinity.

That's why it's supposed to be a big deal for somebody to use an element without any of it being present (Nidaime).
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Old 2007-11-03, 17:04   Link #13
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Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
As said one post earlier. If it was the case, then why would Yamato emphasize to Naruto so much that he's lucky to be wind in order to counter Sasuke's raiton.
Because that element will be easiest for Naruto to master. Yamato probably knew that Naruto was going to go after Sasuke again after learning how to add his element to the rasengan.

Say Naruto's affinity was doton. Then he would be at a disadvantage against Sasuke since he could probably counter a doton rasengan with chidori. So that's why Yamato said he was lucky. He was unlucky that the only element he mastered also happens to be vulnerable to Sasuke's other known element.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
And after explaining his Fuuton would improve Sasuke's Katon, why not -if it can be taught- just teach him water elements, since it seems to be achievable in a few weeks thanks to KB?

Because it can't be taught.
I believe it can be taught. There is nothing I have seen that indicates it cannot. But for plot reasons, Kishimoto did not do it. Remember, Naruto was also interested in Yan and Yang chakra, but Kishi didn't get into that either. Considering Pein has mastered that, it might be something Naruto also has to become proficient with.

Hypothetically let's say Naruto meets up with Sasuke again. And let's say Sasuke's katon abilities are the difference in that fight. Naruto's fuuton rasengan is useless against Sasuke since he can counter it with a powerful enough fire jutsu. This could very well set up Naruto having to master the suiton element to compete with Sasuke.
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Old 2007-11-03, 19:47   Link #14
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Hm..

I just don't see the logic in it.

To me, the fact that everyone would have specific elemental capabilities would fit well in the Narutoverse. And would give some balance to it. Without having -anyone- go, "I now mastered all the elemental jutsus! I r the 1337 !".

Quote:
Because that element will be easiest for Naruto to master. Yamato probably knew that Naruto was going to go after Sasuke again after learning how to add his element to the rasengan.
Well, that may be true, but then why send him half-prepared. Naruto has already grasped how to elementally and spatially recompose his chakra, I doubt it would be long with KB. Even if it took twice the time, he accomplished Fuuton Rasengan, in what, a week?

I just think that considering that new unique way of training, it would be a plothole not to train him straight away in Suiton.

Quote:
I believe it can be taught. There is nothing I have seen that indicates it cannot. But for plot reasons, Kishimoto did not do it. Remember, Naruto was also interested in Yan and Yang chakra, but Kishi didn't get into that either. Considering Pein has mastered that, it might be something Naruto also has to become proficient with.
Well, Yin and Yang chakra is used for all Ninpou, it seems. So that goes for Kage Mane, Kuchiyose, Kage Bunshin, Baika no Jutsu, Mind-swapping techniques, etc.

It's something he already does, but just doesn't know about it. He wanted the explanation, and Kakashi just said it would confuse him and left it at that.

Quote:
Say Naruto's affinity was doton. Then he would be at a disadvantage against Sasuke since he could probably counter a doton rasengan with chidori. So that's why Yamato said he was lucky. He was unlucky that the only element he mastered also happens to be vulnerable to Sasuke's other known element.
Or that he was lucky because he couldn't learn any other elements. I suppose that can't be told from just that.

Quote:
Hypothetically let's say Naruto meets up with Sasuke again. And let's say Sasuke's katon abilities are the difference in that fight. Naruto's fuuton rasengan is useless against Sasuke since he can counter it with a powerful enough fire jutsu. This could very well set up Naruto having to master the suiton element to compete with Sasuke.
Well, I respect the idea of a second training arc, but I doubt Kishi would make it happen again. Most likely, we'd get learning as he goes through his fights. I... don't think that he'd learn Suiton regardless, after his little speech about how Wind is the only element to make a Fire stronger.

I seriously don't think elements outside affinities can be learnt, call me stubborn
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Old 2007-11-03, 19:57   Link #15
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Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
Hm.. I seriously don't think elements outside affinities can be learnt, call me stubborn
Stubborn. I think they have to be able to be learned, otherwise we run into a logical paradox. If you cannot learn elemental techniques outside of your natural affinity, then how do you explain people being able to use more than one element? If you say it's because they have an affinity in more than one element, then why is it that some people only have one, while other have more than one? Also, when using that little piece of paper to find out what element their affinity is, what happens to the paper with people who have an affinity in more than one element? I think elemental techniques can be learned, but an affinity for one specific element makes that elemental technique stronger in the hands of it's user. Someone with an affinity for two elements is generally shown as having a Kekkai Genkai (Shodai, Yamato, Haku), where their two affinities are combined into one. This suggests that people can have an affinity in more than one element, but they are few and far between. Using this model suggests that people can learn more than one element, and that an affinity in more than one element is a Kekkai Genkai.

Edit: Regarding Sandaime; He was called "The Professor," which suggests he was the most learned shinobi, in all techniques, in Konoha. I don't think it's a stretch to believe that this title suggests he learned elemental techniques outside of his affinity.
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Last edited by Quzor; 2007-11-03 at 20:12. Reason: one final note...
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Old 2007-11-03, 21:05   Link #16
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Well..

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If you say it's because they have an affinity in more than one element, then why is it that some people only have one, while other have more than one?
Well some people are born with more than others? Happens in our world too, so why not Narutoverse?

Quote:
Also, when using that little piece of paper to find out what element their affinity is, what happens to the paper with people who have an affinity in more than one element?
I can't really answer that till we see it, can I ? xD But I'd expect a mix between the two, the paper was big enough for that.

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Someone with an affinity for two elements is generally shown as having a Kekkai Genkai (Shodai, Yamato, Haku), where their two affinities are combined into one
Well, yeah. Except for Kakashi. He possesses water and earth but doesn't have a Kekke Genkai. Well, he does have Sharingan, but that's besides the point isn't it? Sharingan doesn't help you fuse elements together like Haku/Shodai/Yamato.

And if the reason why Kakashi doesn't have a kekke genkai from the beginning is because he learnt his other elements: How did he learn them that fast? They don't even speak of how long it takes to acquire a new element. Elemental recomposition doesn't mean you recompose into any element, otherwise Naruto could already do it. They were still training him in elementally recomposing his wind chakra.

Take Sasuke, for example. He only used fire jutsus, and that -clearly- was his affinity, being born in the Uchiha clan and yadiyadiya.

When Naruto is training under Kakashi, he is learning about "Elemental recomposition" And is recomposing his element, wind, into the falling waterfall. Sasuke was doing the same training for the chuunin exam and completed it successfully in "Quite a large number of days." But that's recomposing the element. So in one month, Sasuke learned:

-A new element.
-Spatial recomposition.
-Elemental recomposition.

??

I find that a bit too much for one month.

As for the Sandaime, he can still be outstanding without knowing -every- (literally) jutsu in Konoha. It -was- hype. Knowing also doesn't mean that he can perform them or uses them.
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Old 2007-11-03, 22:41   Link #17
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I thought Kakashi's element was lightning and/or earth. Didn't he learn chidori/raikiri before he had the sharingan?
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Old 2007-11-03, 23:34   Link #18
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Sasuke already new a little bit about elemental jutsu and he is a genius.

Kakashi states that every jonin in kohona knows 2 elements, meaning other elements can be learned.

Last edited by quashoko; 2007-11-03 at 23:34. Reason: hum
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Old 2007-11-04, 03:39   Link #19
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it be lame to be able to have all element affinities, we all saw what kakazu did..dude cant summon captain planet!!!
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Old 2007-11-04, 10:07   Link #20
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it be lame to be able to have all element affinities, we all saw what kakazu did..dude cant summon captain planet!!!
Agreed.

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at El_Frenchie
Sasuke already new a little bit about elemental jutsu and he is a genius.
I'm not denying his skills or his past experiences. It just seems one heck of a stretch for him to learn a new element, learn how to elementally recompose, then spatially recompose in a short time. All during which he trained and "Had a hard time" learning Lee's taijutsu.

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I thought Kakashi's element was lightning and/or earth. Didn't he learn chidori/raikiri before he had the sharingan?
He also uses Suiton. (Water) But the only element we know he has before the Sharingan is Raiton.

=======

To me, the number of elemental affinities one is a huge part of determining a ninja's "talent". Kakashi told Naruto how spatially recomposing and elementally recomposing your chakra took several years. If he had been learning himself, why wouldn't he reflect on his past experiences?
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