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Old 2007-11-10, 12:37   Link #61
Zoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xAdvo View Post
The electron affinity, Eea, of an atom or molecule is the energy required to detach an electron from a singly charged negative ion, i.e., the energy change for the process

If you use this definition of affinity as i think kishi would do since science relates more to elements then math or as the lean towards definition would imply mathematics.
Eh... don't go busting out the dictionary. "Affinity" is just a word the scanlators used. The actual word in Japanese (性質) is simply "nature" or "disposition."
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Old 2007-11-10, 22:02   Link #62
Spideyknight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoe View Post
The fact that it burns isn't enough to say that it's fire. Pure chakra can burn, as seen during the second stage of Naruto's Rasengan training.
Notice I said from appearance only, it's a guess, nothing more.
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Old 2007-11-10, 22:36   Link #63
Rurik
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Originally Posted by xAdvo View Post
Actually since he says 2 elements you can control he is implying affinity because you cannot manipulate elements you dont have an affinity for.

Yamato was just simply refering to himself in which he has no problem seperating his elements and creating water elements and earth elements. He is implying that since he has 2 elements he can control its not hard to seperate them and use them as their own respective element. sasuke or kakashi have only really seen applying one affinity and that is lightning as they can create the chidori which requires nature manipulation and i think sasuke has recently applyed shape manipulation too. but yamato has 2 affinitys earth and water to create wood.
I was not expecting for you to read my entire post, but the affinity part (or whatever it is called) was already discarded in the previous page of the manga, and already explained in my post:
ī
Quote:
Originally Posted by rurik
But hey, up to this point is not obvious to people like Naruto that he doesnít have 2 affinities, just that he can handle 2 different elements, so Naruto goes on and make the question for you and those who did not understood:

Naruto: "What ??Yamato has two too?"

Kakashi: "those in the Jounnin Class (reffering to people like Yamato) usually use two"

This stated here directly contradicts your theory, as I made strong emphasis in the word "usually", kakashi is directly stating that what Yamato did was because he is inside the Jounnin class and is something normal, and not because Yamato had a special bloodline trait or dual affinity (and this was the purpose of this page, so people dont get confuse about Yamato having two affinities). .
The "control" part that you quoted has the same power in terms of literature as if Kakashi would had used it to describe his abilities. for a writer to not fall under any type of confusing or ambiguous information he needs to do this, if Kishimoto would wanted us to know that Yamato had two affinities, he would had not used control, and said he had 2 Affinities.
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Old 2007-11-14, 05:04   Link #64
darkprimus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Such a long post, with exactly the same thing you been saying, which I donít need to be repeated of (specially your whole genetically engineering stuff which doesnít apply at all in a fictional universe), while I donít have the time to be quoting each and every single thing you posted , Iím just going to do what you failed to do before put MANGA FACTS.
You want manga facts, well that's fine. First off though, applying real life knowledge to a fictional universe is how you go about trying to understand it. You don't just throw out the rule book because it's not the real world. Would you say that unless Kishimoto states it, gravity does not apply in Naruto-verse, or any other real life physical universe properties? Now then, considering characters have explicitly discussed issues of genetics I would consider discussing the genetic nature of inheritable traits a pertinent item. Fictional universe or not it has still been shown to follow real life physical laws and principles barring the use of chakra as a means of performing superhuman stunts.

Reference: Chapter 291 page 16, Orochimaru mentions genome, genetic traits and splicing while discussing his attempts at replicating Shodaime's mokuton and jinchuuruki control abilities.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Chapter 316 page 5and later---:

On multiple affinities :
Yamato performs the Doton Doryu Jouheki and then the Suiton Takitsubo, in page 5 of the same manga, Yamato states "I have the ability to manipulate both earth and water" He doesnít say..ĒI have 2 elemental affinitiesĒ.

But hey, up to this point is not obvious to people like Naruto that he doesnít have 2 affinities, just that he can handle 2 different elements, so Naruto goes on and make the question for you and those who did not understood:

Naruto: "What ??Yamato has two too?"

Kakashi: "those in the Jounnin Class (reffering to people like Yamato) usually use two"

This stated here directly contradicts your theory, as I made strong emphasis in the word "usually", kakashi is directly stating that what Yamato did was because he is inside the Jounnin class and is something normal, and not because Yamato had a special bloodline trait or dual affinity (and this was the purpose of this page, so people dont get confuse about Yamato having two affinities).
Hmmm, that's nice. I would point out to you that Naruto says "too?" meaning "also" in that example and is not corrected by Kakashi. He simply tells Naruto that it is not uncommon for individuals to use more than one type. I'll also throw in the individual Naruto is referencing seeing as how you left it out.

Reference: Chapter 315 page 14: Naruto states that Sasuke has both lightning and fire affinities and Kakashi does not correct him, he simply goes on to telling Naruto that they need to find out the nature of his elemental affinity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
About Kakashi not copying this jutsus of combined elements, Page 8

[Kakashi: ďHe combined wind and water to create ice.
An ability like that is genetic, not something you can achieve normally.Ē

Naruto: ďHaku, too...Ē

Kakashi: ďAnd that's why I couldn't copy it with my Sharingan.Ē

Nothing about what you said of " This last step was what Kakashi defined as a Kekkei Genkai, and this last step is what he can't copy." he can't copy because of genetics, thatís all; even after the mixing begins the sharigan can decipher the Jutsu. ohh in case you donít know, this explanation of Sharingan not been able to copy this special bloodline threat was explained fully in the Databook, so we knew since like 2 years ago this sated by kakashi.
As I've stated before, no duh. Kakashi can't copy something he doesn't have the genetic ability to replicate. Did you actually read what I said? I never said he couldn't understand how the technique works. Based on what has been stated about the nature of how mokuton works and the nature of chakra creation and use, I applied that knowledge to identify the step that is the basis of the Kekkei Genkai itself, the blending of the chakra. I stated the what, we all already know the why.

Reference: Well, you already gave it, with Kakashi talking about the combining of the chakra being something he can't do (wow, that sure sounds like what I said!)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
spare me, a fact is something stated and continue to be so until proven otherwise by the author, point here is that what Iím saying here is what have been stated in the Manga, not so with what you have stated so far, which is your invention that in some cases contradict what we know. I donít need to ask Kishi, because he already printed that on his Manga.

Kishi could had not been more specific about affinity, and he would not go again in depth about it, because he dedicated and entire volume to it, your theory does violate what we know, because the emphasis was made on the question regarding more than two elements.
That's funny I found a reference where the prospect of 2 affinities is put before a likely expert (in-universe) on the subject and no corrections were made.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
is ok to have theories, but when the Manga directly states something, then you just have to learn to live with it, thatís what keeps up from inventing thing out of the blue. I just could say, Sharigna can see 360 degrees, because there is nothing that can invalidate that, that is correct, isnít it?
Geez, if you're going to try and make the attempt to say that I'm being stupid in what I'm saying at least pick a better example. If the Sharingan can see 360 degrees than why would Chiyo say you can sneak up on someone who uses it?

Reference: Chapter 275 page 6: Chiyo states you can get behind a Sharingan user or distract them with numbers (something that doesn't work with Byakugan users who do have as close to 360 vision as possible)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
and then, It was never stated that Pein has affinity for the 6 elements, it said he can use the 6 Elements.
No, it wasn't stated that he has affinity, however it was stated that possessed all of them. Based on Kakashi's assessment, you need affinity to perform high level jutsu of a certain elemental type. It is within reason to say that this "most powerful of doujustu" allows it's user to have affinity over all the elements when someone who actually knows about its capabilities states that the user can possess them all.

Reference: Chapter 334 page 17: Kakashi states that you need affinity to do high level elemental jutsu.

Chapter 375 page 11: Jiraiya states that the Rinnegan allows the user to possess all 6 elemental chakra types.



Now in regards to you stating one heart = one elemental affinity, that's just wrong.

Sasori's human puppets (Hiroku and Sandaime Kazekage) that we have seen destroyed appeared to have no hearts and the Kazekage puppet certainly has chakra using capability.

Reference: Chapter 270 page 17: no heart, but full chakra usage abilities with Kazekage
Chapter 266 page 2: Hiroku has no heart either, but since he is a human puppet we can assume that he has chakra using ability

Add to that the fact that Sakura states that chakra is created from the combination of energy from every cell in your body and spiritual energy derived from meditation, which is verified by Kakashi (our in-universe expert), not any particular body part.

Reference: Chapter 17 page 16: chakra is created from all the cells in the body

Chiyo also states that only a single body part is necessary to utilize chakra for the human puppet technique, but considering both it and Kakuzu's technique involve killing someone and then using their chakra and full abilities later it should be similar enough for this purpose.

Reference: Chapter 274 page 12: Although the technique is different (this is human puppet) it is still stated that just a piece of the body is needed to control chakra.

In regards Kakuzu and hearts specifically:

Chapter 335 page 7: kakashi says that he takes people's hearts and "he's even kept their chakra's element" via acupunture, something that in real life handles messing with chi in the body.

Chapter 336 page 4: Kakuzu states he takes hearts to extend his life, not to have multiple elemental affinities.

Also, the death gate of the 8 celestial gate is located in the heart, taken together this would seem to imply that the heart is more about life and death than chakra usage. Sasori apparently kept his heart over his brain as the part of his body that remains after turning the rest of himself into a human puppet, this would most likely be the reason.
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Old 2007-11-14, 08:02   Link #65
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkprimus View Post
You want manga facts, well that's fine. First off though, applying real life knowledge to a fictional universe is how you go about trying to understand it. You don't just throw out the rule book because it's not the real world. Would you say that unless Kishimoto states it, gravity does not apply in Naruto-verse, or any other real life physical universe properties? Now then, considering characters have explicitly discussed issues of genetics I would consider discussing the genetic nature of inheritable traits a pertinent item. Fictional universe or not it has still been shown to follow real life physical laws and principles barring the use of chakra as a means of performing superhuman stunts.

Reference: Chapter 291 page 16, Orochimaru mentions genome, genetic traits and splicing while discussing his attempts at replicating Shodaime's mokuton and jinchuuruki control abilities.
Basic common sense scientific knowledge is one thing, but Kishi did not research genetics to make sure the story's explanation complies. This is fiction, not even sci-fi, but fantasy aimed at early teens. While the manga is enjoyable for mature readers too, Kishi did not give the universe anywhere near the depth you're talking about. That's why Rurik said there's no point discussing it on that level, considering how many shinobi have physical traits/transformation impossible to explain by real-world genetics.

"Genome", "genetic traits" and "splicing" are just popular buzz words to make fantasy magic sound like science, not really based on actual scientific facts. Just like cloning is actual real practice, but the way it's done in ficitional stories is often nothing like it's real life application. Hell, we've seen a 13-yr-old perform an eye transplant, with no surgical tools, during combat in a matter of minutes. So yeah, the story's "science" is just illusion. Kishi can follow it or ignore it as much as he needs to. Only what Kishi explains is "fact".

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2007-11-14 at 08:18.
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Old 2007-11-14, 09:17   Link #66
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkprimus View Post
You want manga facts, well that's fine. First off though, applying real life knowledge to a fictional universe is how you go about trying to understand it. You don't just throw out the rule book because it's not the real world. Would you say that unless Kishimoto states it, gravity does not apply in Naruto-verse, or any other real life physical universe properties? Now then, considering characters have explicitly discussed issues of genetics I would consider discussing the genetic nature of inheritable traits a pertinent item. Fictional universe or not it has still been shown to follow real life physical laws and principles barring the use of chakra as a means of performing superhuman stunts.
Indeed some things of the real world are taken , some rules, however, these rules are bent for story sake, so again using genetics are moot because its not something the Mangaka will rely on in the moment he needs to make a plot. So once again, drop the genetic theories because is something moot.

Quote:
Reference: Chapter 291 page 16, Orochimaru mentions genome, genetic traits and splicing while discussing his attempts at replicating Shodaime's mokuton and jinchuuruki control abilities.
So???


Quote:
Hmmm, that's nice. I would point out to you that Naruto says "too?" meaning "also" in that example and is not corrected by Kakashi. He simply tells Naruto that it is not uncommon for individuals to use more than one type. I'll also throw in the individual Naruto is referencing seeing as how you left it out.
Ohh no, In fact that helps out even more, I did not let it out, because the “too” there was something important to understand the hole meaning of the page.

That too is referring to Sasuke been able to handle 2 elements, when Naruto say “Too”, he is referring to Yamato been able to handle 2 of them just like Sasuke, which Kakashi in dept explain this: Yamato and Sasuke and Him and most Jounnin can handle both, because is expected for a high level shinoby to handle 2 elements.

Quote:
Reference: Chapter 315 page 14: Naruto states that Sasuke has both lightning and fire affinities and Kakashi does not correct him, he simply goes on to telling Naruto that they need to find out the nature of his elemental affinity.
Naruto does not said that, he said:

Quote:
Page 14:
Kakashi: Those matched with wind are good with Wind Element jutsu,
Lightning, with Lightning Element.
Chidori is a Lightning-Element jutsu, for example.

Naruto: So Sasuke's matched with both Fire and Lightning, then?
Kakashi: You , on the other hand, are a zero.
We have no idea which nature your chakra leans towards.
So we're going to check with these cards.
Note two things, Naruto said “Match” , for correction Sake, please note that Match is different here, because Yamato talked before about leaning towards certain elements.

The other is that Kakashi say he has Zero, its impossible for Naruto to have Zero because, even if he can’t elementary manipulate his Chakra, he still have an Affinity.

The Leaning is talking about the affinity

The Match is talking about elemental manipulation.


Quote:
As I've stated before, no duh. Kakashi can't copy something he doesn't have the genetic ability to replicate. Did you actually read what I said? I never said he couldn't understand how the technique works. Based on what has been stated about the nature of how mokuton works and the nature of chakra creation and use, I applied that knowledge to identify the step that is the basis of the Kekkei Genkai itself, the blending of the chakra. I stated the what, we all already know the why.

Reference: Well, you already gave it, with Kakashi talking about the combining of the chakra being something he can't do (wow, that sure sounds like what I said!)
Actually, you need to go and check your first post, because is very different what you are saying now:

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkprimus View Post
Having Shodaime's Kekkei Genkai allows him to combine these two affinities during the chakra molding stage of a jutsu to create a new elemental chakra type, his mokuton. This last step was what Kakashi defined as a Kekkei Genkai, and this last step is what he can't copy.
You are not talking about genetics here, you are saying that what Kakashi can’t copy is the mixing process, so decide what you think, because I don’t go around replying things needlessly.

Quote:
That's funny I found a reference where the prospect of 2 affinities is put before a likely expert (in-universe) on the subject and no corrections were made.
Maybe because you dreamed about that? or you have reading problems, or just simply put:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
spare me, a fact is something stated and continue to be so until proven otherwise by the author,
This means that doesn’t matter what it was said in chapter315, when something totally different is said in Chapter 316 or in this case is explained more detailed, just like Kakashi did not knew Rasengan until chapter 317 or 318.


Quote:
Geez, if you're going to try and make the attempt to say that I'm being stupid in what I'm saying at least pick a better example. If the Sharingan can see 360 degrees than why would Chiyo say you can sneak up on someone who uses it?
The same reason why Tsuande stated that Only Yondaime and Jiraiya could perform rasengan, whereas Kakashi knew it?

Quote:
No, it wasn't stated that he has affinity, however it was stated that possessed all of them. Based on Kakashi's assessment, you need affinity to perform high level jutsu of a certain elemental type. It is within reason to say that this "most powerful of doujustu" allows it's user to have affinity over all the elements when someone who actually knows about its capabilities states that the user can possess them all.

Reference: Chapter 334 page 17: Kakashi states that you need affinity to do high level elemental jutsu.

Chapter 375 page 11: Jiraiya states that the Rinnegan allows the user to possess all 6 elemental chakra types.
Actually, still it doesn’t mean he has 2 affinities, for your sake lets me explain you what that means:

If he indeed can use the 6 elements to its max, it would only mean he can use them like that, and still not have the 6 affinities.

To put it in perspective, in Hunter x Hunter, where something very similar like this is used, the is a Character Name Kurapica, where he has affinity for one type of Shonen Energy, but once his eyes turns RED (coincidence?) he can use to the max all the other 4 type of Energy.

All of these affinity things is an homage to Hunter X Hunter (maybe other Series, but is more to HXH), so a lot of elements are taken from this manga, its good to note that it seems both Kishimoto and Hunter X Hunter Mangaka are known to each other.


Quote:
Now in regards to you stating one heart = one elemental affinity, that's just wrong.

Sasori's human puppets (Hiroku and Sandaime Kazekage) that we have seen destroyed appeared to have no hearts and the Kazekage puppet certainly has chakra using capability.

Reference: Chapter 270 page 17: no heart, but full chakra usage abilities with Kazekage
Chapter 266 page 2: Hiroku has no heart either, but since he is a human puppet we can assume that he has chakra using ability

Add to that the fact that Sakura states that chakra is created from the combination of energy from every cell in your body and spiritual energy derived from meditation, which is verified by Kakashi (our in-universe expert), not any particular body part.

Reference: Chapter 17 page 16: chakra is created from all the cells in the body.

Chiyo also states that only a single body part is necessary to utilize chakra for the human puppet technique, but considering both it and Kakuzu's technique involve killing someone and then using their chakra and full abilities later it should be similar enough for this purpose.

Reference: Chapter 274 page 12: Although the technique is different (this is human puppet) it is still stated that just a piece of the body is needed to control chakra.
Good History class, but you forgot one thing: Chakra and Elemental affinity are two totally different things. You can gather Chakra from your entire body, however there is something in the body that defines your specific affinity.

About Sasori and his puppet show, that just one of the many plot holes in the Manga, we just have to assume that the whole affinity thing does not apply to Human puppets.

Quote:
In regards Kakuzu and hearts specifically:

Chapter 335 page 7: kakashi says that he takes people's hearts and "he's even kept their chakra's element" via acupunture, something that in real life handles messing with chi in the body.

Chapter 336 page 4: Kakuzu states he takes hearts to extend his life, not to have multiple elemental affinities.

Also, the death gate of the 8 celestial gate is located in the heart, taken together this would seem to imply that the heart is more about life and death than chakra usage. Sasori apparently kept his heart over his brain as the part of his body that remains after turning the rest of himself into a human puppet, this would most likely be the reason.
Well:
Quote:
Page 8:
Ino: So to completely finish him,
we need to destroy the hearts in those four monsters?

Shikamaru: Yep.

Kakuzu: You keep on impressing me, kid.
You're absolutely right. They all contain hearts taken from shinobi I've killed.

I'll have to stock back up...
and you guys should do nicely.

Kakashi: Now I see...he can run his own chakra through his former opponent's heart,
And use whatever kind of nature manipulation that they could...
Kakashi is stating that he can manipulate any element because he passes the chakra trough his Hearts. There is a reason why Kakuuzu used each Mask to perform each element, because each Mask has the heart of the specific element.

I wanted you to come up with Manga reference, but not to use faulty translations.
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Old 2007-11-14, 19:38   Link #67
darkprimus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Indeed some things of the real world are taken , some rules, however, these rules are bent for story sake, so again using genetics are moot because its not something the Mangaka will rely on in the moment he needs to make a plot. So once again, drop the genetic theories because is something moot.
I'm gonna answer this part and both Sabaku Kyu's post together. It's not a moot point. This is applying reasoning to understand something plain and simple. Yes, Kishimoto bends the rules when he feels like it, it is his universe after all. However, all of those rule bending examples stem from the use of chakra. Like I said in the previous post, that's his loophole. Something funky happens, well it's related to the use of chakra.

In an interview with Shonen Jump he more or less says it himself "I needed a hook to tie in those points in the story when characters would use powers that were beyond normal human capabilities. The term is chakra, which is used as an explanation for readers to better understand the powers. Its similar to "the Force" in Star Wars, or chi (aka. - Ki) in "Dragon Ball", or magic points in RPGs." So, as I said before, barring the use of chakra (the Naruto equivalent of 'A wizard did it') his world can still be considered bound by real life properties unless stated otherwise. That's the reason people can perform surgery without properly sterile conditions, have multiple arms and additional eyes, move in a flash, jump multiple stories in a go, etc, they all use chakra or some application of it to do so.

So, since Orochimaru points out needed to splice in DNA of Shodaime to get his abilities to show up elsewhere, there have been multiple references to inheritable traits and more that all relate to genetics, those principles can be applied in trying to understand the mechanics of how things work in-universe. Any violation of this can be chocked up to writer's fiat, or chakra. Something that can't fall into either category doesn't prove the rule as invalid, it's simply an exception.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Ohh no, In fact that helps out even more, I did not let it out, because the ďtooĒ there was something important to understand the hole meaning of the page.

That too is referring to Sasuke been able to handle 2 elements, when Naruto say ďTooĒ, he is referring to Yamato been able to handle 2 of them just like Sasuke, which Kakashi in dept explain this: Yamato and Sasuke and Him and most Jounnin can handle both, because is expected for a high level shinoby to handle 2 elements.
Kakashi never states Sasuke's name. Also, if he wanted to correct Naruto he could have done so when Naruto first brought the idea up.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Note two things, Naruto said ďMatchĒ , for correction Sake, please note that Match is different here, because Yamato talked before about leaning towards certain elements.

The other is that Kakashi say he has Zero, its impossible for Naruto to have Zero because, even if he canít elementary manipulate his Chakra, he still have an Affinity.

The Leaning is talking about the affinity

The Match is talking about elemental manipulation.
First off, Yamato does mention leaning, but he goes on to use the Uchiha clan as an example saying that it was full of people with an affinity for fire, making them exceptional with fire jutsu. Kakashi continues with this and says match first "Those matched with wind are good with wind element jutsu, lightning with lightning element," to which Naruto responds in kind by using the word match. Considering the statements in order it makes more sense for them to be discussing the same thing, affinities. Especially since we know having an affinity for an elemental chakra type makes it easier to learn those kinds of jutsu and those with a particular affinity can learn jutsu for that element that someone without the affinity should not be able to learn. As far as the "zero" goes, Kakashi explains what he means, since they don't know what it is it might as well be zero.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Actually, you need to go and check your first post, because is very different what you are saying now:



You are not talking about genetics here, you are saying that what Kakashi canít copy is the mixing process, so decide what you think, because I donít go around replying things needlessly.
Uh huh, you might not go around replying needlessly but you don't seem to read everything you reply to. Kakashi can't copy the chakra blending. He can see it with his Sharingan eye, but he doesn't have the proper genetic ability to let him mix the two himself. I've never not stated this. As I said one is a what "Kakashi cannot copy the blending of chakra to create mokuton" the other is the why "Kakashi cannot copy this because it relies in a genetic ability he does not possess."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
This means that doesnít matter what it was said in chapter315, when something totally different is said in Chapter 316 or in this case is explained more detailed, just like Kakashi did not knew Rasengan until chapter 317 or 318.
Who knows why that happened, but it did. You can't ignore one example in favor of another. Kakashi did not correct Naruto when he first said Sasuke has two, nor did he mention Sasuke in reference to Yamato using doton and suiton techniques. Also, who says Kakashi did not know it? Just because he never used the technique doesn't mean he does not know it. All of the Konoha 9 should know multiple techniques from the Ninja Academy but they only use a couple, the ones that match their fighting style. Would you say that means they don't know ones we have never seen them use, but should have? Like say the replacement technique, or just normal clone or transformation technique. Not all of them have been seen to use those in the manga, but they need to know them to pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
The same reason why Tsuande stated that Only Yondaime and Jiraiya could perform rasengan, whereas Kakashi knew it?
Heck, maybe Tsunade left Konoha before Kakashi would have learned the Rasengan and therefore thought only Yondaime and Jiraiya can do it. However, even in that event she's not correct as Naruto learns it. More to the point, Tsunade is not the creator of the Rasengan or a practitioner of the technique so she is not someone who should be held up as an example of indepth knowledge regarding its use and prevalence in Konoha.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Actually, still it doesnít mean he has 2 affinities, for your sake lets me explain you what that means:

If he indeed can use the 6 elements to its max, it would only mean he can use them like that, and still not have the 6 affinities.

To put it in perspective, in Hunter x Hunter, where something very similar like this is used, the is a Character Name Kurapica, where he has affinity for one type of Shonen Energy, but once his eyes turns RED (coincidence?) he can use to the max all the other 4 type of Energy.

All of these affinity things is an homage to Hunter X Hunter (maybe other Series, but is more to HXH), so a lot of elements are taken from this manga, its good to note that it seems both Kishimoto and Hunter X Hunter Mangaka are known to each other.
This is not Hunter X Hunter, so anything based on that is null and void in the Naruto-verse. However, your example does have some merit and I'm willing to concede that maybe the Rinnegan has some additional rule bending quality that allows Pein to use the best elemental techniques of every element without requiring him to have the specific element's affinity as has been stated previously as a requirement by Kakashi. However, until we know more about its abilities neither you nor I can say anything definitive about the Rinnegan, Pein and whether he has multiple elemental affinities.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Good History class, but you forgot one thing: Chakra and Elemental affinity are two totally different things. You can gather Chakra from your entire body, however there is something in the body that defines your specific affinity.
Yes, chakra comes from the entire body and it is that chakra that has an elemental affinity. Remember that the elemental affinity of a chakra is just one aspect of chakra as a whole. Kakashi tells Naruto to put some of his chakra into that special paper and it will change to reflect his elemental nature. He didn't tell him to put only his "elemental" chakra in. It's part of it. Also, I agree that there is something in the body that defines a ninja's specific affinity. I am saying that is it simply something encoded in their DNA, you are saying it is a specific organ. However, even if it is a specific organ, that organ was grown based on information encoded in that specific individual's DNA.


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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
About Sasori and his puppet show, that just one of the many plot holes in the Manga, we just have to assume that the whole affinity thing does not apply to Human puppets.
No we don't. We don't have to assume anything of the sort. It is stated that a human puppet can use all of the techniques the person could in real life. It is reasonable to assume this means elemental techniques as well. Just because they weren't shown doesn't mean they don't exist. Heck, the case could be made that Sandaime Kazekage's iron sand was based on a unique application of lightning elemental chakra (that most likely needed a Kekkei Genkai). He could create electromagnetic radiation to manipulate iron, lightning is an inherently electrical element.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Kakashi is stating that he can manipulate any element because he passes the chakra trough his Hearts. There is a reason why Kakuuzu used each Mask to perform each element, because each Mask has the heart of the specific element.
Yes, that is a bonus of his ability. Kakuzu states he uses the hearts to extend his life. The fact that this also happens to let him gain access to the heart's chakra/elemental affinity is a bonus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I wanted you to come up with Manga reference, but not to use faulty translations.
Please, you get to define accurate translations now? The translation of a language is complex and open to interpretation based on the skill level of the translator. These Naruto ones are done by fans and although they can vary person-to-person it is the best option someone who does not read Japanese has to know what is going on. If you have a different source with a translation by a different person that's fine, but unless you did it yourself you can't vouch for anything. Heck even if you did, who says your translation is any better than the one I got?
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Old 2007-11-15, 10:51   Link #68
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkprimus View Post
I'm gonna answer this part and both Sabaku Kyu's post together. It's not a moot point. This is applying reasoning to understand something plain and simple. Yes, Kishimoto bends the rules when he feels like it, it is his universe after all. However, all of those rule bending examples stem from the use of chakra. Like I said in the previous post, that's his loophole. Something funky happens, well it's related to the use of chakra..
I don’t think its only related to Chakra, explain to me what Chakra has to do with A Shinoby that has mouth in his Hands and Chest, is this a normal Nature of real Human?

There are a lot of things created based on real life science, however it is not accurate, Kishi doesn’t do research to avoid breaking any Natural Rule, he only base his work and try to make it as real as possible, but in no such way his universe is bound to those rules, there are only bound to the rule of what he needs to be done.

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In an interview with Shonen Jump he more or less says it himself "I needed a hook to tie in those points in the story when characters would use powers that were beyond normal human capabilities. The term is chakra, which is used as an explanation for readers to better understand the powers. Its similar to "the Force" in Star Wars, or chi (aka. - Ki) in "Dragon Ball", or magic points in RPGs." So, as I said before, barring the use of chakra (the Naruto equivalent of 'A wizard did it') his world can still be considered bound by real life properties unless stated otherwise. That's the reason people can perform surgery without properly sterile conditions, have multiple arms and additional eyes, move in a flash, jump multiple stories in a go, etc, they all use chakra or some application of it to do so.
Some of the things is the Chakra, not all of the thing, because There are things that goes on the anatomical level that doesn’t have anything to do with Chakra, and have to do with Kishi fictional world, specifically the mutations, things like people been able to grow bones out of their body, things like people having teeth like a Shark, and I could go on and on.

You can explain abstract occurrence with Chakra, but Genetic occurrences it’s a different story.

And don’t go on believing everything Kishimoto say on an interview will remain until he finish his work, he once talked about a powerful Akatsuki female...look how that have turned out to be.


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So, since Orochimaru points out needed to splice in DNA of Shodaime to get his abilities to show up elsewhere, there have been multiple references to inheritable traits and more that all relate to genetics, those principles can be applied in trying to understand the mechanics of how things work in-universe. Any violation of this can be chocked up to writer's fiat, or chakra. Something that can't fall into either category doesn't prove the rule as invalid, it's simply an exception.
He needs the Genetics to replicate the use of the Keke Gekai, for all we know Oro used a controlled environment where all of the specimen had the same affinity for either Earth or Water. What related to genetics of Oro experiment is the anatomic feature that let Shodaime mix the 2 elements, whereas, we dont know about the affinity.


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Kakashi never states Sasuke's name. Also, if he wanted to correct Naruto he could have done so when Naruto first brought the idea up.
Learn how to understand things, Let me once again repost the translation:

Yamato: I'm adept at both earth and water "Nature manipulation", Naruto.
Naruto: So YOU can use more than one type TOO?…


Now, Naruto is asking is Yamato can use two Elements like Sasuke, that’s the point where Sasuke is added to the question,:

This means:

Naruto: So Yamato and Sasuke can use 2 Elements?

-->

Kakashi: By the time you're a jounin-class ninja, most people can use at least two types.
I can use more than just Lightning element jutsu, for example.


Now Kakashi explain why they can use two Elements, By the Time you are Jounnin class you can use at least two of those, Kakashi been of those.

Meaning:

Kakashi: Yamato can use two (and so Sasuke) because by the time you are Jounin class you are expected to use 2.


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First off, Yamato does mention leaning, but he goes on to use the Uchiha clan as an example saying that it was full of people with an affinity for fire, making them exceptional with fire jutsu. Kakashi continues with this and says match first "Those matched with wind are good with wind element jutsu, lightning with lightning element," to which Naruto responds in kind by using the word match. Considering the statements in order it makes more sense for them to be discussing the same thing, affinities. Especially since we know having an affinity for an elemental chakra type makes it easier to learn those kinds of jutsu and those with a particular affinity can learn jutsu for that element that someone without the affinity should not be able to learn.
Exactly like that, and then as I said before, in literal sense match and Leaning have different meaning in the context, up to this point both references seems ambiguous and even could be referring to the same thing, but the next chapter this is explained with detail and its made clear that Leaning and Match were referring to different things.

In this case, Kakashi is saying that most Jounnin are match with 2, but they are match with two because they are Jounin class, implying that this is not something they are born with or is on a DNA level, but rather something they acquired with training.

Now, if your observation would had been correct, then that would had meant that, it is common to have 2 Affinities and affinities are not necessarily genetics, is something that can be trained.


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As far as the "zero" goes, Kakashi explains what he means, since they don't know what it is it might as well be zero.
Nop, the Zero its referring to fact that Naruto doesn’t have any Elemental Manipulation whatsoever, there is a pause and after that he explain he needs to know what is Naruto Element of Affinity.


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Uh huh, you might not go around replying needlessly but you don't seem to read everything you reply to. Kakashi can't copy the chakra blending. He can see it with his Sharingan eye, but he doesn't have the proper genetic ability to let him mix the two himself. I've never not stated this. As I said one is a what "Kakashi cannot copy the blending of chakra to create mokuton" the other is the why "Kakashi cannot copy this because it relies in a genetic ability he does not possess."
Again, Let me repeat this, Kakashi cant copy that because he doesn’t have the genetics, if he would had the genetics, for let say mokuton, his sharigan should bee able to Read, Understand and Copy the mixing process.

Once again, you do not mention the Genetics, now I know you already backed down from your Mistake and you are correcting it with your latest post, but you need to accept that your first post did not talked about genetics, it talked about the Mixing process, and not about the genetics traits of the person, this are two different concepts.

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Originally Posted by darkprimus
Handling an element is very different from what people like Yamato or Haku are doing. I agree with you that a shinobi can handle using multiple elements. I mean I pointed out Kakashi and Sandiame as examples of it. However the point of having more than one affinity is that you can utilize more than one elemental chakra type naturally and would not require as much effort to learn those techniques. For Yamato, having Shodaime's bloodline and hence dual affinity allows him to use any doton or suiton jutsu he wants fairly naturally and easy in comparison to someone who lacks affinity. Having Shodaime's Kekkei Genkai allows him to combine these two affinities during the chakra molding stage of a jutsu to create a new elemental chakra type, his mokuton. This last step was what Kakashi defined as a Kekkei Genkai, and this last step is what he can't copy.
now, show me in the post where you mention the word Genetics? Nowhere to be found, you are just implying here that Sharigan cant copy because it can copy the mixing part, that’s what your post is saying here.


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Who knows why that happened, but it did. You can't ignore one example in favor of another. Kakashi did not correct Naruto when he first said Sasuke has two, nor did he mention Sasuke in reference to Yamato using doton and suiton techniques.
I said that because I was more than sure that you were not going to accept what Kakashi and Yamato were referring too. I will explain more detailed about not ignoring, rather getting what I’m talking about.


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Also, who says Kakashi did not know it? Just because he never used the technique doesn't mean he does not know it. All of the Konoha 9 should know multiple techniques from the Ninja Academy but they only use a couple, the ones that match their fighting style. Would you say that means they don't know ones we have never seen them use, but should have? Like say the replacement technique, or just normal clone or transformation technique. Not all of them have been seen to use those in the manga, but they need to know them to pass.

I think you have problems understanding some references.

When I said Kakashi did not know, it’s that, up until such point, Kakashi did not perform Rasengan, and thus, our fact up to that point is that Kakashi did not knew Rasengan (because there is actually a line that contradicts this),

Just like our fact right now is that no other Shinoby knows Rasengan, but this facts can easily be changed, and tomorrow we learn that Shikas Father knows rasengan, and that's what happened with Kakashi, and that’s the whole point of the explanation of the new information invalidating or expanding the old.

I don’t know if you did not noticed, but I sure did; the whole training of Naruto and Elemental affinity were Elements that Kishi came up recently, even maybe on the spot. Kishi needed to create something cool for Naruto in a small lapse of time, and thus created this plot devise.

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Heck, maybe Tsunade left Konoha before Kakashi would have learned the Rasengan and therefore thought only Yondaime and Jiraiya can do it. However, even in that event she's not correct as Naruto learns it. More to the point, Tsunade is not the creator of the Rasengan or a practitioner of the technique so she is not someone who should be held up as an example of indepth knowledge regarding its use and prevalence in Konoha.
In other words Tsunade was wrong, and so Chiyo could had been wrong about what she knew about Sharingan.

And the point of this was to illustrate just that, our factual information is what we know now, this information can be, or either Changed, Expanded, and it some cases contradicted with new Information, and the thing of reading a long story is that no matter how stupid it seems, the new information that its been giving to us, has more weight than information given to us before. Because the authors are constantly innovating, creating plots, and in the process, they need to drop previous ideas for new ones so their progressive story can continue.

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This is not Hunter X Hunter, so anything based on that is null and void in the Naruto-verse. However, your example does have some merit and I'm willing to concede that maybe the Rinnegan has some additional rule bending quality that allows Pein to use the best elemental techniques of every element without requiring him to have the specific element's affinity as has been stated previously as a requirement by Kakashi. However, until we know more about its abilities neither you nor I can say anything definitive about the Rinnegan, Pein and whether he has multiple elemental affinities.
Ohh my friend, don’t get me wrong (and I was expecting such reply) I’m not saying this is Hunter X Hunter, and we should expect Gon to pop out in chapter 400 (well, the seiyu for Naruto was the same for Gon….), this was aimed at two specific things:

A) Show that there can be more than one explanation to the Rinenga than Just 6 different Affinities.

B) That these elements used by Kishimoto are not new, this are used up elements in other manga, and he takes reference from tem, and thus one have a good idea what the author is doing here.

Because this is an homage to HXH, is with more faith that I’m debating how one person don’t have more than one affinity, because its been handled the same way in other Mangas that had similar plot devises, and thus you can easily have an idea what Kishi wants to tell us when he uses this elements. And this happens in a lot of Manga, used up concepts that are applied similar as other Manga, tell me, do you think that concepts such as Kawarami have not been used in similar fashion in other Mangas?


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Yes, chakra comes from the entire body and it is that chakra that has an elemental affinity. Remember that the elemental affinity of a chakra is just one aspect of chakra as a whole. Kakashi tells Naruto to put some of his chakra into that special paper and it will change to reflect his elemental nature. He didn't tell him to put only his "elemental" chakra in. It's part of it.
I really don’t see how disagree with anything you have said or I have said until now.


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Also, I agree that there is something in the body that defines a ninja's specific affinity. I am saying that is it simply something encoded in their DNA, you are saying it is a specific organ. However, even if it is a specific organ, that organ was grown based on information encoded in that specific individual's DNA.
Yes, the Organ has DNA encoded; yet each organ serves specific function in the body, for example just because The Brain has the same DNA as your Liver, doesn’t mean your liver can think.

Its obvious that your elemental affinity is decided by your DNA, however to have this affinity you need and specific organ to serve the function of giving the element to the Chakra, based on what I posted about Kakuuzu, it seems that it’s the heart.


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No we don't. We don't have to assume anything of the sort. It is stated that a human puppet can use all of the techniques the person could in real life. It is reasonable to assume this means elemental techniques as well. Just because they weren't shown doesn't mean they don't exist. Heck, the case could be made that Sandaime Kazekage's iron sand was based on a unique application of lightning elemental chakra (that most likely needed a Kekkei Genkai). He could create electromagnetic radiation to manipulate iron, lightning is an inherently electrical element.
I did not say they cant use Elemental Jutsu, I’m saying that this is just something made more than a year ago where elemental affinities was not part of the Manga. And thus this could very well be a plot hole, and the best we can do is to Assume that the rules of Elemental affinity (about the heart) does not apply to Human Puppets.


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Yes, that is a bonus of his ability. Kakuzu states he uses the hearts to extend his life. The fact that this also happens to let him gain access to the heart's chakra/elemental affinity is a bonus.
Let me se if I get you right:

Kakuuzu can use say element of this person because the heart happens to contain DNA of the person?

I would had concede to your observation but the translation is made so you have the knowledge that the heart is the converter of the Chakra element. Up to this day it is accepted that this is like this.


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Please, you get to define accurate translations now? The translation of a language is complex and open to interpretation based on the skill level of the translator. These Naruto ones are done by fans and although they can vary person-to-person it is the best option someone who does not read Japanese has to know what is going on. If you have a different source with a translation by a different person that's fine, but unless you did it yourself you can't vouch for anything. Heck even if you did, who says your translation is any better than the one I got?
Is not that the translator you got could be wrong (or in extreme, worst) than the one I got, but the one I got is one most respected Translator in the Naruto translators community, and his translation is backed up by 2 very respected translators, so in the moment Senior posters in this forum needs Translation they can trust, we go for either one of these 3 people. Because unfortunately is all about Reputation. And before believing and unknown translator for it, I believe the one people have been following for around 3 Years now (which most posters agree, he is the best).

--

EDIT: I will concede you one point in this, is that your translation happen to be from one of those 3 respected posters, If you are up to it, we can drop the whole Heart decides the affinity, I don’t want this debate to turn into a "whose better translator" debate.

however I wanted you to know how the other of the 3 translators did this part:

Frame 4
Kakashi: I see. He incorporated the others’ hearts along with the chakra elements residing in the chakra tubes. That’s why he can use so many “Elemental Manipulations”…
__________________
"when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -

Last edited by Rurik; 2007-11-15 at 16:24.
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Old 2007-11-16, 04:08   Link #69
darkprimus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I donít think its only related to Chakra, explain to me what Chakra has to do with A Shinoby that has mouth in his Hands and Chest, is this a normal Nature of real Human?

There are a lot of things created based on real life science, however it is not accurate, Kishi doesnít do research to avoid breaking any Natural Rule, he only base his work and try to make it as real as possible, but in no such way his universe is bound to those rules, there are only bound to the rule of what he needs to be done.

Some of the things is the Chakra, not all of the thing, because There are things that goes on the anatomical level that doesnít have anything to do with Chakra, and have to do with Kishi fictional world, specifically the mutations, things like people been able to grow bones out of their body, things like people having teeth like a Shark, and I could go on and on.

You can explain abstract occurrence with Chakra, but Genetic occurrences itís a different story.
It's not physically possible to breath fire, manipulate water, make clones of yourself, or a host of other abilities displayed in Naruto-verse that are attributed to "it's just chakra manipulation". We already know that chakra can affect things on at least the cellular level as seen by Kyuubi chakra enhanced regeneration in Naruto, Tsunade's Souzou Saisei, and Kabuto's Inyu Shometsuto to name a few. Affecting cellular regeneration necessitates controlling the molecules that signal for a cell to divide. I won't go into the details on how a cell is instructed to divide or how the body knows it has been injured, but with chakra being shown to manipulate that level of body mechanics I would not put it past it to change the observed phenotype of individuals. Although it actually has, and in real time too, look at the curse seals. Those cause a transformation of the body, Sasuke grows wings, it's source, Juugo has been observed to turn his arm into a piston. Have something that encodes for chakra that ends up altering your body to possess extra arms or mouths on your hands and chest that imbue clay with chakra, or shark like teeth and skin, etc. Well based on what has come before, I would believe it.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
And donít go on believing everything Kishimoto say on an interview will remain until he finish his work, he once talked about a powerful Akatsuki female...look how that have turned out to be.
Unless he later states different you have to take the word of the creator at face value. He says something is true, well until he says different it is. I understand that things can change as you work on a project that crosses over multiple years, but you still have to believe the creator knows what he/she is doing. Also I'm sure Konan is very powerful, but the deck was stacked against her in this one fight she has been in. Jiraiya quite literally taught her everything she knows and is exceedingly powerful as Pein remarked (before knowing who the intruder was) that based on the level of chakra he was sensing that the person would be dangerous. I mean it's Konan's bad luck that she is vulnerable to wetness, remember that in Chapter 368 Pein needed to stop the rain before she could use her jutsu. That weakness was not going to go away and Jiraiya exploited it right at the beginning of the fight.




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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
He needs the Genetics to replicate the use of the Keke Gekai, for all we know Oro used a controlled environment where all of the specimen had the same affinity for either Earth or Water. What related to genetics of Oro experiment is the anatomic feature that let Shodaime mix the 2 elements, whereas, we dont know about the affinity.
The Kekkei Genkai is a genetic trait, not anatomical. Like you said though we don't know what Orochimaru did with those 60 test subjects, how they were screened, what were their genetic attributes, etc. I mean we don't even know what it was about Yamato that made the gene splicing take. So no one but Kishimoto can say the real reason.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Learn how to understand things, Let me once again repost the translation:

Yamato: I'm adept at both earth and water "Nature manipulation", Naruto.
Naruto: So YOU can use more than one type TOO?Ö

Now, Naruto is asking is Yamato can use two Elements like Sasuke, thatís the point where Sasuke is added to the question,:

This means:

Naruto: So Yamato and Sasuke can use 2 Elements?
An equally valid one is quite simply "So Yamato can use 2 elements also" with no mention of Sasuke to which Kakashi's response can be considered "No Yamato does not have an affinity for 2 elements, however like most jonin level ninja he can use jutsu belonging to more than one element.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Now, if your observation would had been correct, then that would had meant that, it is common to have 2 Affinities and affinities are not necessarily genetics, is something that can be trained.
No, affinities would still simply be genetics under my interpretation. You are matched with the corresponding jutsu of the element that your chakra leans towards, meaning you can achieve higher levels of techniques in it than someone who lacks any affinity for the element. In the battle with Kakuzu this is established, you need an affinity to use the highest level of elemental jutsu.

As far as dual affinities being common, they are obviously not, so something is going in regards to that respect. Perhaps, much like with Shodaime's kekkei genkai, having more than one affinity is too much for the average ninja's body to handle. Most children with more than one affinity would end up self-aborting. We don't really know.




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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Nop, the Zero its referring to fact that Naruto doesnít have any Elemental Manipulation whatsoever, there is a pause and after that he explain he needs to know what is Naruto Element of Affinity.
I take it a pause is indicated in your translation? In the one I am using no such pause is indicated and the interpretation would be he simply means that since no one know's what affinity Naruto's chakra has, for the purpose of elemental chakra training it's the same as nothing, zero.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Again, Let me repeat this, Kakashi cant copy that because he doesnít have the genetics, if he would had the genetics, for let say mokuton, his sharigan should bee able to Read, Understand and Copy the mixing process.
Yet again, no duh. As I have said repeatedly myself one is a what, the other is a why. Remember, with the Sharingan you have to be able to see the jutsu and actually be capable of performing what you observed. Since Kakashi can obviously see it being performed one would naturally conclude that he must not be capable of performing it. From there I simply went to answer the basic "who, what when, where, why" questions of any story. I don't know why you think I'm trying to say that Kakashi could copy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Once again, you do not mention the Genetics, now I know you already backed down from your Mistake and you are correcting it with your latest post, but you need to accept that your first post did not talked about genetics, it talked about the Mixing process, and not about the genetics traits of the person, this are two different concepts.


now, show me in the post where you mention the word Genetics? Nowhere to be found, you are just implying here that Sharigan cant copy because it can copy the mixing part, thatís what your post is saying here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkprimus
Handling an element is very different from what people like Yamato or Haku are doing. I agree with you that a shinobi can handle using multiple elements. I mean I pointed out Kakashi and Sandiame as examples of it. However the point of having more than one affinity is that you can utilize more than one elemental chakra type naturally and would not require as much effort to learn those techniques. For Yamato, having Shodaime's bloodline and hence dual affinity allows him to use any doton or suiton jutsu he wants fairly naturally and easy in comparison to someone who lacks affinity. Having Shodaime's Kekkei Genkai allows him to combine these two affinities during the chakra molding stage of a jutsu to create a new elemental chakra type, his mokuton. This last step was what Kakashi defined as a Kekkei Genkai, and this last step is what he can't copy.
I don't need to mention "genetics" the word, I mention "bloodline" and "kekkei genkai" (bolded in the above), which both refer to a genetic trait, as was established in the manga and even the meaning of the words. There has been no mistake, I've simply been more explicit in recent posts because you don't seem to get what I'm saying.

Having Shodaime's kekkei genkai (a genetic trait) confers an ability to blend chakra together (something that involves chakra molding) to create a new element, wood. Kakashi does not have the genetic trait and thus cannot replicate the chakra molding required to make wood. If there is something there you are not following then say so and I can try to explain it in a different way or be more clear, but to me it all follows logically enough.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
When I said Kakashi did not know, itís that, up until such point, Kakashi did not perform Rasengan, and thus, our fact up to that point is that Kakashi did not knew Rasengan (because there is actually a line that contradicts this),
What line is this, if you are referring to Tsunade's I have already shown how her knowledge can be called into question. I have also given examples of techniques that we have not seen ninja use, but that they must know to illustrate the point that just because someone never used a technique does not mean they do not know it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I donít know if you did not noticed, but I sure did; the whole training of Naruto and Elemental affinity were Elements that Kishi came up recently, even maybe on the spot. Kishi needed to create something cool for Naruto in a small lapse of time, and thus created this plot devise.
Is this assessment based on your own interpretation or something that was stated somewhere about the manga itself? I know that the idea of chakra and the elemental chakras have been around since at least Chapter 10 of the manga where they are pictured (on scrolls) while Kakashi is discussing Team 7's chakra usage. It's not too hard to think that Kishimoto had ideas floating about for affinity and such since then too. Look at Kakashi. He had the single Sharingan eye and that scar for a long time, however it wasn't until recently with Kakashi Gaiden that we found out the full story. Authors tend to make extensive notes on their story (or in this case fictional universe) before starting to write.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
In other words Tsunade was wrong, and so Chiyo could had been wrong about what she knew about Sharingan.
As I pointed out about Tsunade, she neither created or uses the Rasengan, Chiyo on the other hand has stated that she fought Sharingan users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
And the point of this was to illustrate just that, our factual information is what we know now, this information can be, or either Changed, Expanded, and it some cases contradicted with new Information, and the thing of reading a long story is that no matter how stupid it seems, the new information that its been giving to us, has more weight than information given to us before. Because the authors are constantly innovating, creating plots, and in the process, they need to drop previous ideas for new ones so their progressive story can continue.
I agree that things can change and the newer info should be considered more up to date, but as this is a story where characters lie and conceal the truth often (just look at Naruto's paternity) you have to consider the source (the character telling us what is going on) when evaluating whether the new info is valid. I mean if we had a brand new character appear and state that the Sharingan is an illusion, and that all the characters with it really can just learn jutsu that fast we'd have to be critical of excepting that given what the bulk of our Sharingan related information states even though it is newer.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Ohh my friend, donít get me wrong (and I was expecting such reply) Iím not saying this is Hunter X Hunter, and we should expect Gon to pop out in chapter 400 (well, the seiyu for Naruto was the same for GonÖ.), this was aimed at two specific things:

A) Show that there can be more than one explanation to the Rinenga than Just 6 different Affinities.

B) That these elements used by Kishimoto are not new, this are used up elements in other manga, and he takes reference from tem, and thus one have a good idea what the author is doing here.

Because this is an homage to HXH, is with more faith that Iím debating how one person donít have more than one affinity, because its been handled the same way in other Mangas that had similar plot devises, and thus you can easily have an idea what Kishi wants to tell us when he uses this elements. And this happens in a lot of Manga, used up concepts that are applied similar as other Manga, tell me, do you think that concepts such as Kawarami have not been used in similar fashion in other Mangas?
Look, I already stated that I concede your example and the Rinnegan might have some other rule breaking quality that allows its user to use all the high level elemental jutsu without needing an affinity for all 6. However, it doesn't matter what I think, doesn't matter if this really is an homage to Hunter X Hunter, doesn't matter if Kishimoto is using concepts that have already been used before. What matters is the execution of the idea. What twists will Kishimoto add? How will he deal with the powers in his fictional universe and with his fictional characters?

Look at Marvel and DC comics. They have tons of characters that have identical powers and play similar roles in their respective universes but each has differences that change the way they play out in stories and the way they are used. Look at Shakespeare. Other writers at the time had similar material and tropes, so did writers who came before him, but he used them in such a way that people are still talking about him. Look at Halo, other games or fictional stories have had a single, one-man-army, silent and stoic protagonist that is out to save the world from evil aliens that wish to exterminate us, but Bungie handled it in a way that has enjoyed massive cultural acceptance.



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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
EDIT: I will concede you one point in this, is that your translation happen to be from one of those 3 respected posters, If you are up to it, we can drop the whole Heart decides the affinity, I donít want this debate to turn into a "whose better translator" debate.
I'm happy to settle that part of this discussion. So, from now on neither one of us will discuss the heart and its relation to elemental affinity.
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Old 2007-11-16, 09:53   Link #70
Rurik
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Originally Posted by darkprimus View Post
It's not physically possible to breath fire, manipulate water, make clones of yourself, or a host of other abilities displayed in Naruto-verse that are attributed to "it's just chakra manipulation". We already know that chakra can affect things on at least the cellular level as seen by Kyuubi chakra enhanced regeneration in Naruto, Tsunade's Souzou Saisei, and Kabuto's Inyu Shometsuto to name a few. Affecting cellular regeneration necessitates controlling the molecules that signal for a cell to divide. I won't go into the details on how a cell is instructed to divide or how the body knows it has been injured, but with chakra being shown to manipulate that level of body mechanics I would not put it past it to change the observed phenotype of individuals. Although it actually has, and in real time too, look at the curse seals. Those cause a transformation of the body, Sasuke grows wings, it's source, Juugo has been observed to turn his arm into a piston. Have something that encodes for chakra that ends up altering your body to possess extra arms or mouths on your hands and chest that imbue clay with chakra, or shark like teeth and skin, etc. Well based on what has come before, I would believe it.
Yeah, but that’s Grasping at straws., and you can’t say now its because of Chakra, because that will just be your assumption, and that’s the whole point of this debate, you are passing your theories as facts.

Until now, the mutations I talked about has never been said to be because of Chakra, and unless you have some real Manga fact or Databook fact, the only thing we know is that they are born like that.


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Unless he later states different you have to take the word of the creator at face value. He says something is true, well until he says different it is. I understand that things can change as you work on a project that crosses over multiple years, but you still have to believe the creator knows what he/she is doing. Also I'm sure Konan is very powerful, but the deck was stacked against her in this one fight she has been in. Jiraiya quite literally taught her everything she knows and is exceedingly powerful as Pein remarked (before knowing who the intruder was) that based on the level of chakra he was sensing that the person would be dangerous. I mean it's Konan's bad luck that she is vulnerable to wetness, remember that in Chapter 368 Pein needed to stop the rain before she could use her jutsu. That weakness was not going to go away and Jiraiya exploited it right at the beginning of the fight.
Some of the fantastic thing that has happened are in one case because of Chakra, the other because special body traits, as I said above you don’t have any proof at all it is because Chakra, and the Interview can use up to one point, but it is not a definitive rule in the manga.

I need you to get thing straight: Naruto universe is not bound by any Natural law, and thus any type of Scientific explanation to explain occurrences is moot, because in the Naruto universe there are element not present in the real world ad thus, making these rule to some point obsolete. To get what I'm saying, is the same thing you are talking about regarding references from other Mangas: Kishi takes concepts from them, but the execution is totally up to Kishimoto.

I will talk about the difference from using a Manga reference and Real world Science later on.

About Konan, she is powerful, but Kishi has a nag of letting his female characters have passive rolls, let see if he can redeem himself, right now, Konan seem to be a very vulnerable shinoby (Someone like Kakashi could beet the crap out of her).

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The Kekkei Genkai is a genetic trait, not anatomical. Like you said though we don't know what Orochimaru did with those 60 test subjects, how they were screened, what were their genetic attributes, etc. I mean we don't even know what it was about Yamato that made the gene splicing take. So no one but Kishimoto can say the real reason.
Sorry if I used the wrong word, when I said Anatomical, I tried to talk about something that is Physical, that is part of the body, different to what the concept of Chakra and Chakra molding that are partly based on skills ,training,and spiritual energy.

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An equally valid one is quite simply "So Yamato can use 2 elements also" with no mention of Sasuke to which Kakashi's response can be considered "No Yamato does not have an affinity for 2 elements, however like most jonin level ninja he can use jutsu belonging to more than one element.
That just plain bad reading, and your English is good enough to know that. the “also” is made so Yamato is included with Sasuke as the same kind, that is a basic thing, and The answer you are putting from Kakashi left me curious now:

"No Yamato does not have an affinity for 2 elements, however like most jonin level ninja he can use jutsu belonging to more than one element.

Now, you were saying before that Yamato and Haku needs to have dual affinities to bee able to perform their respective special element. So this sentence is just made for examples? Or this is what you think?.


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No, affinities would still simply be genetics under my interpretation. You are matched with the corresponding jutsu of the element that your chakra leans towards, meaning you can achieve higher levels of techniques in it than someone who lacks any affinity for the element. In the battle with Kakuzu this is established, you need an affinity to use the highest level of elemental jutsu.
Well, under my interpretation, you can be matched with different elements, and thus reason why people can use more than one element effectively, whereas your Chakra naturally leans towards an specific element.

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As far as dual affinities being common, they are obviously not, so something is going in regards to that respect. Perhaps, much like with Shodaime's kekkei genkai, having more than one affinity is too much for the average ninja's body to handle. Most children with more than one affinity would end up self-aborting. We don't really know.
Yeah, and because we really don’t even know that really exist, -the dual affinity part -(I will however remind you that I am open to any future quote that agree with your observation) you can’t be making assertions and counter-replying other poster with this theory, when right now the Page reference I gave you made it look as if nobody has dual affinity.


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I take it a pause is indicated in your translation? In the one I am using no such pause is indicated and the interpretation would be he simply means that since no one know's what affinity Naruto's chakra has, for the purpose of elemental chakra training it's the same as nothing, zero.
The pause or end of one idea is in every translation, and is noted by a punctuation mark [.], if it were inside the same idea, it would had been used or either Comas or three dots.

To put it more simply, while they both can be the same idea, they are both 2 sentences and hence can be two different Ideas, given the translator is using 2 different words is the same context, this could be referring to each word having different concepts.

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Yet again, no duh. As I have said repeatedly myself one is a what, the other is a why. Remember, with the Sharingan you have to be able to see the jutsu and actually be capable of performing what you observed. Since Kakashi can obviously see it being performed one would naturally conclude that he must not be capable of performing it. From there I simply went to answer the basic "who, what when, where, why" questions of any story. I don't know why you think I'm trying to say that Kakashi could copy it.
Huh? I’m not trying to pass that you say He can copy it, I’m saying that you were talking about first that Kakashi could not copy those elemental Jutsu because Sharigan can’t copy the mixing process.

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I don't need to mention "genetics" the word, I mention "bloodline" and "kekkei genkai" (bolded in the above), which both refer to a genetic trait, as was established in the manga and even the meaning of the words. There has been no mistake, I've simply been more explicit in recent posts because you don't seem to get what I'm saying.

Having Shodaime's kekkei genkai (a genetic trait) confers an ability to blend chakra together (something that involves chakra molding) to create a new element, wood. Kakashi does not have the genetic trait and thus cannot replicate the chakra molding required to make wood. If there is something there you are not following then say so and I can try to explain it in a different way or be more clear, but to me it all follows logically enough.
The explanation there is more clear now ^^, as I said the first one made it look like you talked about that is the mixing part. reason why Xray agreed with me, reason why I replied to you. And using bloodline and Keke Gekai to make up for genetics could really be confusing, as people take Those two words as the ability itself, and not about genetics.

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What line is this, if you are referring to Tsunade's I have already shown how her knowledge can be called into question. I have also given examples of techniques that we have not seen ninja use, but that they must know to illustrate the point that just because someone never used a technique does not mean they do not know it.
No, her knowledge can’t be called into question, because Tsunade has no knowledge to begin with, she is a fictional character created by Kishimoto. While within the universe your explanation is the most logical one, that’s not the point I'm looking for, is about the universe as it is created by the author, and this what are called contradictions.

That’s why I have been using examples here and there to see if you can get what I’m talking about, and I see you do. By the moment Tsunade said “Only Jiraiya and Yondaime can performs Rasengan” that right there was our fact; if 4 Years ago, you would had said “Kakashi knows rasengan also” what would that had been? The fact, or a contradiction?

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Is this assessment based on your own interpretation or something that was stated somewhere about the manga itself? I know that the idea of chakra and the elemental chakras have been around since at least Chapter 10 of the manga where they are pictured (on scrolls) while Kakashi is discussing Team 7's chakra usage. It's not too hard to think that Kishimoto had ideas floating about for affinity and such since then too. Look at Kakashi. He had the single Sharingan eye and that scar for a long time, however it wasn't until recently with Kakashi Gaiden that we found out the full story. Authors tend to make extensive notes on their story (or in this case fictional universe) before starting to write.
Not the elemental Jutsus, the affinity for each element, if you have been following the story since it was publicized, and you are someone that have read a lot of different Stories, you as a reader, can tell weather some new information are either been forced into the story or feel as they were part of the story all along. The whole Naruto training and Elemental affinity were introduced as a fresh idea made by Kishimoto in that portion, the purpose? He needed to upgrade Narutos powers, what he did?

-He needed Naruto to learn something in a small lapse of time: Clones can now pass the experience to the original. After 310 Chapters, the most used ability, always could do that, but just know is that we are told of, interesting timing.

-He needs a Jutsu: We learn that rasengan was actually not a completed Jutsu, after Jiraiya was talking about how it took Yondaime 3 years to master the rasengan, and people reffered to it as a complete Jutsu.

-He introduce elemental affinity, before this, NO shinoby ever even hinted about having certain preference over one element, yet after this, every shinoby now talks about it.

The first and the last one are consider common components in the Naruto universe, and characters never talked about them for 310 Chapters, so, do you think that Kishimoto created those since he started the Manga?

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As I pointed out about Tsunade, she neither created or uses the Rasengan, Chiyo on the other hand has stated that she fought Sharingan users.
Yet she knew Jack about MS, so she is not the authority regarding everything about Sharigan.


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I agree that things can change and the newer info should be considered more up to date, but as this is a story where characters lie and conceal the truth often (just look at Naruto's paternity) you have to consider the source (the character telling us what is going on) when evaluating whether the new info is valid. I mean if we had a brand new character appear and state that the Sharingan is an illusion, and that all the characters with it really can just learn jutsu that fast we'd have to be critical of excepting that given what the bulk of our Sharingan related information states even though it is newer.
Again Characters don’t lie, Kishimoto is what dives them to do things, and in some cases, you can say it is because Kishimto wants to keep things a secret, but in other moments its Kishimoto having a Change of decision while he is doing his story, and that has happened in the Manga. And in some cases this change of heart creates contradiction. Or what, are you going to defend that this Manga has no contradictions at all?


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Look, I already stated that I concede your example and the Rinnegan might have some other rule breaking quality that allows its user to use all the high level elemental jutsu without needing an affinity for all 6. However, it doesn't matter what I think, doesn't matter if this really is an homage to Hunter X Hunter, doesn't matter if Kishimoto is using concepts that have already been used before. What matters is the execution of the idea. What twists will Kishimoto add? How will he deal with the powers in his fictional universe and with his fictional characters?

Look at Marvel and DC comics. They have tons of characters that have identical powers and play similar roles in their respective universes but each has differences that change the way they play out in stories and the way they are used. Look at Shakespeare. Other writers at the time had similar material and tropes, so did writers who came before him, but he used them in such a way that people are still talking about him. Look at Halo, other games or fictional stories have had a single, one-man-army, silent and stoic protagonist that is out to save the world from evil aliens that wish to exterminate us, but Bungie handled it in a way that has enjoyed massive cultural acceptance.
Well, the only thing I can’t agree with you is about the Marvel ad DC comics, given that each Character usage of powers could vary depending on the writer. The Manga is different because a title is done by the same writer until the end.

And, it does matter to some point that is an homage to Hunter X Hunter and any other mangas, because if you kow those, you do have an idea what those powers are about. Maybe the author can modify for instance something here and there,.But the core concept is something used up from other story.

I give you an example of Something that changed from Hunter x Hunter, the paper test here, is done different in HXH, in HXH, a cup of water with a leaf is put in front of the Character, the character needs to concentrate his energy on that cup of water, depending on how the water reacts, you can tell to which group that person belongs to.

While you can see is different, you can’t help but to notice some similarities, and based on those similarities, and not having further info in the Naruto manga, you can use what you saw in other manga as base of experience to tell what is the author intending in that moment.

That this could be pulled of totally different? Yes, just how it could happen with your genetics explanation. But the difference is that unlike Any fictional world refference, Genetics and science are bound by exact rules and laws that can't be bent or broken depending on which Scientist is working on them, but with fictional science, the Auhtor can do anything he wants.


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I'm happy to settle that part of this discussion. So, from now on neither one of us will discuss the heart and its relation to elemental affinity.
Well I guess this debate is getting to its end (I did needed a long debate, its been motnhs since I had this much fun), its good to see that we at least have agree on something. ^^



EDIT: one thing we also agree on, Halo Kick ass…
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Last edited by Rurik; 2007-11-16 at 13:56.
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Old 2007-11-18, 19:27   Link #71
darkprimus
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Yeah, but thatís Grasping at straws., and you canít say now its because of Chakra, because that will just be your assumption, and thatís the whole point of this debate, you are passing your theories as facts.

Until now, the mutations I talked about has never been said to be because of Chakra, and unless you have some real Manga fact or Databook fact, the only thing we know is that they are born like that.
I'm not trying to pass my theories off as fact. They are theories and until we have genuine fact on the matter they are valid so long as they do not contradict anything that came before. We know chakra can cause physical changes, look at Chouji's multi-size jutsu. This technique allows the user to rapidly expand the size of their body or just parts of it, and return to normal with no adverse consequences. In real life that kind of rapid expansion and contraction of your body would be painful to put it mildly and would easily result in your death. Another is Naruto gaining fangs, his eyes turning red and his nails extending and becoming claw like thanks to the Kyuubi chakra. Those are both direct physical changes in someone through use of chakra. How is it grasping at straws when I'm pointing out things done in the manga?

As I said before, with chakra being produced by all the cells in the body, and aspects of this being inheritable, than it makes sense for any kind of strange body mutation being the result of that person, or clan having a genetic mutation that uses their naturally produced chakra to change their body since we have seen chakra can do this. Nothing in the manga or any of the databooks contradicts this theory so it is just as valid as saying they are born that way. With Occam's Razor in play it's actually better because it's simpler. We don't need genes for 6 arms or horns or wings or shark teeth or anything else circulating in the genome, just some genes that affect the way the body uses chakra. Since chakra is already the established rule breaker in the Naruto-universe it only requires only a partial additional assumption rather than a geniune one like in the what you are proposing with "they are just born like that."



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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I need you to get thing straight: Naruto universe is not bound by any Natural law, and thus any type of Scientific explanation to explain occurrences is moot, because in the Naruto universe there are element not present in the real world ad thus, making these rule to some point obsolete. To get what I'm saying, is the same thing you are talking about regarding references from other Mangas: Kishi takes concepts from them, but the execution is totally up to Kishimoto.
Of course it's different from the real world, but to throw out any kind of real world analysis whole sale just means there is absolutely no point to what you or I have said because nothing we say matters until Kishimoto says something. When trying to analyze a fictional world you have to assume what you are seeing is a documentary that is representing the way that world really works and that unless specifically stated otherwise said world functions just like the real one. In that way you can begin to make sense of it and apply reasoning in circumstances when it deviates from the real world to find a logical explanation. In the Naruto-verse all rule breaking is tied to chakra, so when a real world physical law is broken the first idea for a theory to explain it should relate to chakra usage. If this is unable to explain it then and only then should you venture out into adding new assumptions to the world that Kishimoto has created.



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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
About Konan, she is powerful, but Kishi has a nag of letting his female characters have passive rolls, let see if he can redeem himself, right now, Konan seem to be a very vulnerable shinoby (Someone like Kakashi could beet the crap out of her).
She's vulnerable yeah, but you have to know about a vulnerability in order to take advantage of it. Jiraiya and Pein are both intimately aware of her weaknesses and strengths, other ninja not so much. However, I am aware of what you are saying about Kishimoto and his weak potrayal of female ninja.

Minor nitpick: Konan is a kunoichi since she is a female, not a shinobi.




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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
That just plain bad reading, and your English is good enough to know that. the ďalsoĒ is made so Yamato is included with Sasuke as the same kind, that is a basic thing, and The answer you are putting from Kakashi left me curious now:

"No Yamato does not have an affinity for 2 elements, however like most jonin level ninja he can use jutsu belonging to more than one element.

Now, you were saying before that Yamato and Haku needs to have dual affinities to bee able to perform their respective special element. So this sentence is just made for examples? Or this is what you think?.
It's not bad interpretation when Kakashi switches to discussing jonin level ninja of which he and Yamato are. Sasuke is not nor is Naruto. The only Konoha 9 who made it that far is Neji. The only one who made it to chunin following the exam was Shikamaru. Now the others are all talented, and after training with Jiraiya and Orochimaru respectively I'm sure they have gotten a lot stronger, but they would not fall into the category of ninja that Kakashi switches the subject to.

In regards to the example sentence, if our in-universe expert Kakashi says that Yamato does not have 2 elements and Yamato doesn't contradict him then there's not much to say. At most you can ask when did Yamato have his affinity test done, was it before or after beening kidnapped by Orochimaru. If it was before than the possibility remains that he does have 2 now, but no one knows it. If after that it is completely 100% that he only has 1 affinity.





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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Well, under my interpretation, you can be matched with different elements, and thus reason why people can use more than one element effectively, whereas your Chakra naturally leans towards an specific element.
Yes and with mine you are matched to the jutsu of the element your chakra leans toward, not that you can't learn jutsu for other elements. However I don't think either one of us is going to convince the other so maybe we should just drop this while awaiting new evidence that would confirm it one way of the other.





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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
The pause or end of one idea is in every translation, and is noted by a punctuation mark [.], if it were inside the same idea, it would had been used or either Comas or three dots.
As pause is a very different things from a period. A period is the end of a statement or sentence, while a pause actually indicates a break in speech. Look at what I am typing in this paragraph, multiple periods have been used to indicate the end of a statement, but all the ideas contained here-in are linked, meaning they should be taken together. In writing out character text if they had used the three dots or something that would have actually indicated the character making a pause in their speech, not a period.





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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
The explanation there is more clear now ^^, as I said the first one made it look like you talked about that is the mixing part. reason why Xray agreed with me, reason why I replied to you. And using bloodline and Keke Gekai to make up for genetics could really be confusing, as people take Those two words as the ability itself, and not about genetics.
Ah, that's good . Well then I hope this part of the discussion can be put to rest as well.




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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
No, her knowledge canít be called into question, because Tsunade has no knowledge to begin with, she is a fictional character created by Kishimoto. While within the universe your explanation is the most logical one, thatís not the point I'm looking for, is about the universe as it is created by the author, and this what are called contradictions.

Thatís why I have been using examples here and there to see if you can get what Iím talking about, and I see you do. By the moment Tsunade said ďOnly Jiraiya and Yondaime can performs RasenganĒ that right there was our fact; if 4 Years ago, you would had said ďKakashi knows rasengan alsoĒ what would that had been? The fact, or a contradiction?
So is that how you have been looking at everything? I think I understand the big difference between our respective analyses. When I look at a fictional universe I look at it exclusively in an in-universe context. I only use out-of-universe information when it directly pertains to the goings on in-universe like Kishimoto's interview statement. If you are looking and saying "oh, it's fact because a character said it and they said it because the creator wanted them to" well then what will you do when a character says a blatant lie? You have to look at anything a characters says or does as part of who they are. You can't look at them like they are just props to tell a story, you have to look at them like they are real people saying things and doing things for their own reasons.

I'll use Star Wars as an illustrative example here. Take Luke and Vader. Now you could ask why didn't Vader figure out that Luke was his son until after the end of "A New Hope" instead of right there during the Deathstar Trench Run scene? The obvious out-of-universe answer is that George Lucas didn't want his big reveal to happen that early when he had planned out a trilogy. Same goes for mentioning Leia is Luke's sister. However, you can't do that because it invalidates the story. You have to look at explanations that occur in-universe to explain it.



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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Not the elemental Jutsus, the affinity for each element, if you have been following the story since it was publicized, and you are someone that have read a lot of different Stories, you as a reader, can tell weather some new information are either been forced into the story or feel as they were part of the story all along. The whole Naruto training and Elemental affinity were introduced as a fresh idea made by Kishimoto in that portion, the purpose? He needed to upgrade Narutos powers, what he did?

-He needed Naruto to learn something in a small lapse of time: Clones can now pass the experience to the original. After 310 Chapters, the most used ability, always could do that, but just know is that we are told of, interesting timing.

-He needs a Jutsu: We learn that rasengan was actually not a completed Jutsu, after Jiraiya was talking about how it took Yondaime 3 years to master the rasengan, and people reffered to it as a complete Jutsu.

-He introduce elemental affinity, before this, NO shinoby ever even hinted about having certain preference over one element, yet after this, every shinoby now talks about it.

The first and the last one are consider common components in the Naruto universe, and characters never talked about them for 310 Chapters, so, do you think that Kishimoto created those since he started the Manga?
Yes, all fine out-of-universe explanations, but that invalidates everything that is going on in-universe, which is the viewpoint I am arguing from and the one that let's you make sense of what is going on for the purpose of understanding the fictional universe Kishimoto has created.




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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Yet she knew Jack about MS, so she is not the authority regarding everything about Sharigan.
MS is rare first off, it's highly likely she would have never encountered it. Also I never said she was an expert, just that her information has merit because she actually has fought the Sharingan and lived.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Again Characters donít lie, Kishimoto is what dives them to do things, and in some cases, you can say it is because Kishimto wants to keep things a secret, but in other moments its Kishimoto having a Change of decision while he is doing his story, and that has happened in the Manga. And in some cases this change of heart creates contradiction. Or what, are you going to defend that this Manga has no contradictions at all?
I would not say the manga has no contradictions, but you can't say "characters don't like because Kishimoto tells them what to say" that's looking out-of-universe when you need to stay in-universe to actually analyze/explain anything.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Well, the only thing I canít agree with you is about the Marvel ad DC comics, given that each Character usage of powers could vary depending on the writer. The Manga is different because a title is done by the same writer until the end.
True, but even that is how they are handled. That's how the Silver Surfer can go from Cosmic level hero/threat to being put in a headlock by the Black Panther (and yes, that happened). Look at limited releases then. Invincible is a good one that works with superheroes and is done by one person. But the point is that even with all these similarities between the universes, what matters is how they are handled.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
And, it does matter to some point that is an homage to Hunter X Hunter and any other mangas, because if you kow those, you do have an idea what those powers are about. Maybe the author can modify for instance something here and there,.But the core concept is something used up from other story.

I give you an example of Something that changed from Hunter x Hunter, the paper test here, is done different in HXH, in HXH, a cup of water with a leaf is put in front of the Character, the character needs to concentrate his energy on that cup of water, depending on how the water reacts, you can tell to which group that person belongs to.

While you can see is different, you canít help but to notice some similarities, and based on those similarities, and not having further info in the Naruto manga, you can use what you saw in other manga as base of experience to tell what is the author intending in that moment.

That this could be pulled of totally different? Yes, just how it could happen with your genetics explanation. But the difference is that unlike Any fictional world refference, Genetics and science are bound by exact rules and laws that can't be bent or broken depending on which Scientist is working on them, but with fictional science, the Auhtor can do anything he wants.
Yes, an homage matters as you are taking elements from some other person the honor their work, but the way you use them are up to you the author/creator. Yet again using Star Wars if only for it's broad reach and the fact that anything I say can't be taken as a spoiler, George Lucas pays homage to many old western films and Asian mythic stories, but he combines them and uses them in ways that make his story different from any of those and twists the elements he took to make them fit, leaving behind a vestige of what they were to honor the sources.





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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Well I guess this debate is getting to its end (I did needed a long debate, its been motnhs since I had this much fun), its good to see that we at least have agree on something. ^^

EDIT: one thing we also agree on, Halo Kick assÖ
It does seem to be getting to the end here. We've pretty much mined everything that the manga can offer in terms of information. There's really not much left to talk about now.
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Old 2007-11-18, 22:22   Link #72
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While I agree with most things you said, darkprimus, I think a bit of positive reinforcement goes a long way:

Quote:
Rurik: -He introduced elemental affinity, before this, NO shinoby ever even hinted about having certain preference over one element, yet after this, every shinoby now talks about it.
Nope, elemental jutsus were always there. And you can see that clearly through a number of fights, but the easiest one to quote is Sandaime's:

-Sandaime uses fire.
-Nidaime uses water. (>fire)
-Sandaime uses earth. (>water)

As you can see, there was already a hierarchy planned. And both Hokages used appropriate counter-jutsus.

[snip]

I'm pretty sure the concept of elements was always there, just never highlighted.

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-11-19 at 05:38.
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Old 2007-11-19, 00:16   Link #73
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Frenchie View Post
While I agree with most things you said, darkprimus, I think a bit of positive reinforcement goes a long way:



Nope, elemental jutsus were always there. And you can see that clearly through a number of fights, but the easiest one to quote is Sandaime's:

-Sandaime uses fire.
-Nidaime uses water. (>fire)
-Sandaime uses earth. (>water)

As you can see, there was already a hierarchy planned. And both Hokages used appropriate counter-jutsus.
[snip]
I'm pretty sure the concept of elements was always there, just never highlighted.

I think what he meant is that no one ever implied that they used a certain type of element due to the nature of their chakra, that was just their preference. There was one case where Kakashi mentioned that Sasuke was "the same type" as him, when Sasuke first showed chidori, but that can be taken a number of ways. Ninja have always been shown to have preference over certain elements, just it was never really defined why.

Before it was explained that affinity determined what elemental jutsu is used, it seemed like environment was the main factor. Shinobi from the Mist Village in the Water country used suiton jutsu, shinobi from Wind country like Temari and Baki often used fuuton jutsu and those from the Rock village shown to use doton jutsu. Konoha, being in fire country had many characters that use katon jutsu, but also a good mix of other elements, but really, it seemed like this was just to show how strong and versatile the Konoha nin were rather than to demonstrate affinity.

I'd say the elemental preference thing has been around for a while, but the chakra affinity concept was thought up later.

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-11-19 at 05:37.
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Old 2007-11-19, 14:13   Link #74
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First off, I decided to truncate parts of your post, those parts are the one I think that we either reached on a Agreement, or that we both agreed to disagree.

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Originally Posted by darkprimus View Post
I'm not trying to pass my theories off as fact. They are theories and until we have genuine fact on the matter they are valid so long as they do not contradict anything that came before. We know chakra can cause physical changes, look at Chouji's multi-size jutsu. This technique allows the user to rapidly expand the size of their body or just parts of it, and return to normal with no adverse consequences. In real life that kind of rapid expansion and contraction of your body would be painful to put it mildly and would easily result in your death. Another is Naruto gaining fangs, his eyes turning red and his nails extending and becoming claw like thanks to the Kyuubi chakra. Those are both direct physical changes in someone through use of chakra. How is it grasping at straws when I'm pointing out things done in the manga?
Simply put because those are physical changes we know that are done thanks to chakra, but you cant use one or two examples as the measuring stick to explain everything, as that falls under assumption.

for the record, I donít agree that every type of Anatomic mutation is because of Chakra, for me there happen to be different types of races in the Naruto universe.

About Naruto, I also donít agree that he gets like that because of just chakra, look at Gaara side effect of been the Jinchuriki of Shukaku, this was not because of Chakra.

Quote:
As I said before, with chakra being produced by all the cells in the body, and aspects of this being inheritable, than it makes sense for any kind of strange body mutation being the result of that person, or clan having a genetic mutation that uses their naturally produced chakra to change their body since we have seen chakra can do this. Nothing in the manga or any of the databooks contradicts this theory so it is just as valid as saying they are born that way. With Occam's Razor in play it's actually better because it's simpler. We don't need genes for 6 arms or horns or wings or shark teeth or anything else circulating in the genome, just some genes that affect the way the body uses chakra. Since chakra is already the established rule breaker in the Naruto-universe it only requires only a partial additional assumption rather than a geniune one like in the what you are proposing with "they are just born like that."
Yeah, I do propose they are just born like that, because We really donít know the background of each race to say itís because of Chakra.

What Iím getting at is that you can only assume it is because of Chakra, but, it is not a definitively fact, I fall under assumption that things like Kisame, Plant Dude, Zabuza, Orochimaru, Dogs and cats that talk, Clothes getting multizised, Girls having Natural Pink colored hair, Are like that because of other factors not related to chakra, this factors themselves however do break real Natural rules.

Quote:
Of course it's different from the real world, but to throw out any kind of real world analysis whole sale just means there is absolutely no point to what you or I have said because nothing we say matters until Kishimoto says something. When trying to analyze a fictional world you have to assume what you are seeing is a documentary that is representing the way that world really works and that unless specifically stated otherwise said world functions just like the real one. In that way you can begin to make sense of it and apply reasoning in circumstances when it deviates from the real world to find a logical explanation. In the Naruto-verse all rule breaking is tied to chakra, so when a real world physical law is broken the first idea for a theory to explain it should relate to chakra usage. If this is unable to explain it then and only then should you venture out into adding new assumptions to the world that Kishimoto has created.
Yes and No, Yes that you can try to explain any abnormality by using logical explanations based on real life, and no, not necessarily you have to try and force explain something thanks to Chakra usage when any other real life logic fails to explain so.

Quote:
It's not bad interpretation when Kakashi switches to discussing jonin level ninja of which he and Yamato are. Sasuke is not nor is Naruto. The only Konoha 9 who made it that far is Neji. The only one who made it to chunin following the exam was Shikamaru. Now the others are all talented, and after training with Jiraiya and Orochimaru respectively I'm sure they have gotten a lot stronger, but they would not fall into the category of ninja that Kakashi switches the subject to.

In Kakashi explanation he uses Jounnin to add to the idea he is explaining to Naruto, in this case is to clear any doubt of thinking that Sasuke can use two because he is from Another planet, He explain that the occurrences of Handling two elements is not something exclusive to a few shinobies, rather, something that is expected to higher skilled shinobies.

To put it in words... let me seeÖ

ďYamato and Sasuke has two because if you are a skilled shinoby is expected for you to handle 2 elements.Ē

And thatís the specific point of our debate, while Iím not saying it isnít possible for dual affinities to exist, I still insist that nothing has been said that they do exist, and that people like Yamato and Haku, (the initial reason of Debate), can create a new Element based on 2 element they handle, and not necessarily that to create this new element, they need to have dual affinity, because Kishimoto did not created that Rule inside this explanation.

Quote:
In regards to the example sentence, if our in-universe expert Kakashi says that Yamato does not have 2 elements and Yamato doesn't contradict him then there's not much to say. At most you can ask when did Yamato have his affinity test done, was it before or after beening kidnapped by Orochimaru. If it was before than the possibility remains that he does have 2 now, but no one knows it. If after that it is completely 100% that he only has 1 affinity.
Yes, but the problem here lies basically with the Sentence, and hence this looks more at a direct statement, that is not that Yamato has 2 Affinities, is that Yamato handles two elements line almost any other Jounnin.


Quote:
As pause is a very different things from a period. A period is the end of a statement or sentence, while a pause actually indicates a break in speech. Look at what I am typing in this paragraph, multiple periods have been used to indicate the end of a statement, but all the ideas contained here-in are linked, meaning they should be taken together. In writing out character text if they had used the three dots or something that would have actually indicated the character making a pause in their speech, not a period.
Yes, Iím talking about that, but for example, when you explain something and use a period, you in this case have two sentences that are linked to each other, but to keep the integrity of the ideas and reference, the writer needs to use the same word (or similar words) when they are making reference to the same idea.

In this case, the translator is using two different words in the same translation, this two different words could have different meaning, As I said before, to this point it seems ambiguous, and you could say that Kakashi is saying that Sasuke has two affinities.

But for me, the explanation that goes after that clarify that sentence more, Kakashi was not referring to Affinities there, as he talked about how people Like Yamato and Him can handle 2 because of adquired skill, and maybe you will still interpret it in a different way, but the "too" used for Naruto and the subsequent explanation by Kakshi, makes it look more to be intended to include Sasuke, so to explain: is not that Sasuke and Yamato that are a rare breed, is that the are high skilled shinobies.


Quote:
So is that how you have been looking at everything? I think I understand the big difference between our respective analyses. When I look at a fictional universe I look at it exclusively in an in-universe context. I only use out-of-universe information when it directly pertains to the goings on in-universe like Kishimoto's interview statement. If you are looking and saying "oh, it's fact because a character said it and they said it because the creator wanted them to" well then what will you do when a character says a blatant lie? You have to look at anything a characters says or does as part of who they are. You can't look at them like they are just props to tell a story, you have to look at them like they are real people saying things and doing things for their own reasons.

I'll use Star Wars as an illustrative example here. Take Luke and Vader. Now you could ask why didn't Vader figure out that Luke was his son until after the end of "A New Hope" instead of right there during the Deathstar Trench Run scene? The obvious out-of-universe answer is that George Lucas didn't want his big reveal to happen that early when he had planned out a trilogy. Same goes for mentioning Leia is Luke's sister. However, you can't do that because it invalidates the story. You have to look at explanations that occur in-universe to explain it.


Yes, all fine out-of-universe explanations, but that invalidates everything that is going on in-universe, which is the viewpoint I am arguing from and the one that let's you make sense of what is going on for the purpose of understanding the fictional universe Kishimoto has created.
In some cases I do go directly to in the in-universe to explain occurrences.

But, In some cases you canít forget that this is still a progressive story that go on for years and Years, and no matter how hard the author tries to, for sake of his story the author need to do changes, is up to reader to use his imagination to explain this within Universe, but in an objective explanation of what did happen, is basically the Author adjusting his story. sometimes it goes well (Orochimaru been a former member of Akatsuki), sometimes it feels forced (some examples I gave you).

Quote:
MS is rare first off, it's highly likely she would have never encountered it. Also I never said she was an expert, just that her information has merit because she actually has fought the Sharingan and lived.
Yeah, but, the point Iím getting to here is basically that how facts are not necessarily absolute, but they are still our facts, and something said now will remain a fact until proven otherwise, even if itís a lie from a character, until this is proven to be a lie, it remains our fact.

Going back to the Chiyo example, even if Chiyo said you can fight in group Sharigan better, Kishi can just say ďwell, the 4th doted Sharigan gives you the 360 degree visionĒ.

Now, that quote right there sounds like a Uchiha Fanboy wet dream, And I will the first in line with flamed torch for the witch-hunt, because this has never been hinted in the Manga, however, because Facts are not absolute, Kishimoto could decide to do this next chapter, and from there on, that will be our fact.

Quote:
I would not say the manga has no contradictions, but you can't say "characters don't like because Kishimoto tells them what to say" that's looking out-of-universe when you need to stay in-universe to actually analyze/explain anything.
You got my drift, in-Universe they do Lie, but my Analysis is about how Facts are easily changed, or sometimes contradicted.


Quote:
It does seem to be getting to the end here. We've pretty much mined everything that the manga can offer in terms of information. There's really not much left to talk about now.
YupÖlet see how much I can go onÖ
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Old 2007-11-19, 20:10   Link #75
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i think kishimoto should have consulted the author of Hunter X Hunter before making elemental rules
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Old 2007-11-20, 08:18   Link #76
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I believe what confused people is the word 'Affinity"
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Old 2007-11-20, 13:46   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
i think kishimoto should have consulted the author of Hunter X Hunter before making elemental rules
Actually the magical energy in HxH was not about elements, rather what the energy could help accomplish, a type gave more power to the person, another helped create objects, etc. in this case, Togashi introduced these types of energy in the same moment he introduced the magical energy.

Curios enough, no Character mentioned, or was presented using this magical energy in the first arc, as this energy (called Nen) became part of the story after the first arc ended.


Quote:
Originally Posted by quashoko View Post
I believe what confused people is the word 'Affinity"
I agree with that.
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Old 2007-11-21, 11:57   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Actually the magical energy in HxH was not about elements, rather what the energy could help accomplish, a type gave more power to the person, another helped create objects, etc. in this case, Togashi introduced these types of energy in the same moment he introduced the magical energy.
i know, what I was trying to say is that togashi made rules and explained everything thoroughly. but kishi left so much holes that it has people arguing over pointless things. i'm not sure if i am making sense. what i am trying to say is that togashi made rules in wich we can argue within them. but with naruto we go all over the place, even into genetics

Curios enough, no Character mentioned, or was presented using this magical energy in the first arc, as this energy (called Nen) became part of the story after the first arc ended.
[/quote]
--of topic---
actually nen was presented its just that the noob characters did not no what it was. when hisoka was going Krazy in forest... the feeling that killua got when his brother was about to touch him.
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Old 2007-11-21, 12:15   Link #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
i know, what I was trying to say is that togashi made rules and explained everything thoroughly. but kishi left so much holes that it has people arguing over pointless things. i'm not sure if i am making sense. what i am trying to say is that togashi made rules in wich we can argue within them. but with naruto we go all over the place, even into genetics
its more because Kishi has tried to be more realistic over his Magical energy (and I could say, even more detailed), and the bigger you expand information about something, the more question you will have about it.

Quote:
actually nen was presented its just that the noob characters did not no what it was. when hisoka was going Krazy in forest... the feeling that killua got when his brother was about to touch him.
That was Hisokas Bloodlust, he was felling anxious because he had not seen any action for a long period of time, after Nen was formally introduced, you could theorize that some things happened because of Nen, (how Irumi controlled Killua) but because the energy was not introduced you could assume this were Psychological effects or effects, such as Hypnosis, Killer Intent, etc.

Also remember that Killua only made mention of the strange feeling from Irumi, after he fought with the Karate Kid.
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Old 2008-03-31, 13:30   Link #80
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Most jounin have at least two elemental affinities. Sasuke's affinities are lightning and fire.
I think you are mistaken affinity with ability. You normally have a single affinity, but you can use many elementals (exceptions may be the bloodlines, as it wasn't directly mentioned, but, we haven't heard any of that regarding the Uchiha bloodline).
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