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Old 2008-03-31, 13:43   Link #81
ChronoReverse
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
I think you are mistaken affinity with ability. You normally have a single affinity, but you can use many elementals (exceptions may be the bloodlines, as it wasn't directly mentioned, but, we haven't heard any of that regarding the Uchiha bloodline).
Could be. It seems the ability to use multiple elements is limited though since Kakashi was impressed with Kazuka's ability to use any element. From this I assumed you needed some affinity to even use an element properly (i.e., for bigger jutsus).
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Old 2008-03-31, 13:57   Link #82
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Could be. It seems the ability to use multiple elements is limited though since Kakashi was impressed with Kazuka's ability to use any element. From this I assumed you needed some affinity to even use an element properly (i.e., for bigger jutsus).
Anyone can use any element, it is just that some elements will require greater chakra consumtion and control than others. Naruto could use an Earth Jutsu, but using the jutsu would be more difficult for him than using a Wind Jutsu, and using a Fire Jutsu would be even more difficult (since it is the element that his natural affinity is weak against). And having a high affinity with two elements is what creates new elements (such as Wood = Earth + Water; Ice = Water + Wind; or Lava = Earth + Fire (this element currently has not been shown to exist)).

So far Kakuzu is the only individual that is known to be able to have five affinities (even if they were all stolen), and Pein can supposedly use all 6 elements (5 element and the 6th which is combination (Wood, etc.) or specialty (Nara Shadow techniques, etc.)) but we have not actively seen him really use any jutsu yet.
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Old 2008-03-31, 13:58   Link #83
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Could be. It seems the ability to use multiple elements is limited though since Kakashi was impressed with Kazuka's ability to use any element. From this I assumed you needed some affinity to even use an element properly (i.e., for bigger jutsus).
It's probably about chakra usage: if you have an affinity you need less chakra for the same effect, and with the same amount of chakra you can do more damage. Also that means that the maximum power of the jutsu can be achieved if you have an affinity to the element of the jutsu. So even if a kage level guy knows jutsu for all elements he will most likely use only one or two elements because he has limited chakra and also because he wants to make the strongest jutsu he can. The reason to use other elements is that the ninja has made a good tactic for it or that the element is good against the other element. For example Kakashi uses lightning against earth when killing Kakuzu's first heart, when he is attack by Itachi's fireball he uses earth elemnt to hide himself. Kakashi also uses water when needed. I guess Kakashi has no affinity for earth but he uses it when it's effective for defense. Kakashi's earth skills are probably limited to basic defense type jutsu, if he would fight with earth he would be out of chakra very soon, and of course he would be unable to make earth from nowhere like the 3rd hokage did in his fight against Orochi.
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Old 2008-03-31, 14:19   Link #84
HiroInazuma
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Could be. It seems the ability to use multiple elements is limited though since Kakashi was impressed with Kazuka's ability to use any element. From this I assumed you needed some affinity to even use an element properly (i.e., for bigger jutsus).
I think it might be like this:

Spoiler for Speculation on chakra affinities:
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Old 2008-03-31, 14:35   Link #85
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Eh? According to your theory it's pretty much what I thought it was (only small jutsu with non-affinities).
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Old 2008-03-31, 14:51   Link #86
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Eh? According to your theory it's pretty much what I thought it was (only small jutsu with non-affinities).
For a normal average say Chuunin-level shinobi, that is undoubtedly true (I wouldn't be surprised if all Iruka knows are simple elemental jutsu with a few stronger affinity jutsu), but for large chakra reserve Shinobi such as a Kage, Sasuke, Kakashi, or more likely Naruto, all elements are open to use, just some are a little harder to use.

btw, nice pic HiroInazuma, you should post that on one of the Image threads here.
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Old 2008-03-31, 14:57   Link #87
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For a normal average say Chuunin-level shinobi, that is undoubtedly true (I wouldn't be surprised if all Iruka knows are simple elemental jutsu with a few stronger affinity jutsu), but for large chakra reserve Shinobi such as a Kage, Sasuke, Kakashi, or more likely Naruto, all elements are open to use, just some are a little harder to use.
Against a same level ninja it would be stupid to waste chakra on other elements. His jutsu would be either useless because the opponent effortlessly counters it, or it would consume all his chakra which would lead to losing the fight quite soon.

Of course if someone like Jiraiya fight against jounin like Asuma or Kurenai he could waste his chakra however he wants and still be able to win the fight
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Old 2008-03-31, 14:58   Link #88
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It's probably about chakra usage: if you have an affinity you need less chakra for the same effect, and with the same amount of chakra you can do more damage. Also that means that the maximum power of the jutsu can be achieved if you have an affinity to the element of the jutsu. So even if a kage level guy knows jutsu for all elements he will most likely use only one or two elements because he has limited chakra and also because he wants to make the strongest jutsu he can.
I didn't get that from reading those chapters again when Naruto was training. I believe that having an affinity only means that it's much easier for you to learn that particular element. I don't think it has anything to do with less chakra usage. As Kakashi said, learning to manipulate elemental chakra takes a very long time. That's why most jounin don't got beyond learning thier own affinity and another element. Only the truly talented like the Third and Orochimaru, those with bloodline limits, or those who acquired their power like Kakuzu, were capable of using many(and yin/yang?) element jutsus at a very high level. Naruto got around this by using the kage bunshin training. Since I see Naruto in the truly talented class, there is no reason he can't master every element. At worst I see him as jonin level(only in power) right now which means he needs to learn another element. Likely water before any Sasuke, Pein, or Madara fight.

Sasuke only has one affinity. Lightening like Kakashi. But as an Uchiha, he was trained to master katon and makes it just as powerful as his lightening. With training anyone can master any element.
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Old 2008-03-31, 15:11   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I didn't get that from reading those chapters again when Naruto was training. I believe that having an affinity only means that it's much easier for you to learn that particular element. I don't think it has anything to do with less chakra usage. As Kakashi said, learning to manipulate elemental chakra takes a very long time. That's why most jounin don't got beyond learning thier own affinity and another element. Only the truly talented like the Third and Orochimaru, those with bloodline limits, or those who acquired their power like Kakuzu, were capable of using many(and yin/yang?) element jutsus at a very high level. Naruto got around this by using the kage bunshin training. Since I see Naruto in the truly talented class, there is no reason he can't master every element. At worst I see him as jonin level(only in power) right now which means he needs to learn another element. Likely water before any Sasuke, Pein, or Madara fight.

Sasuke only has one affinity. Lightening like Kakashi. But as an Uchiha, he was trained to master katon and makes it just as powerful as his lightening. With training anyone can master any element.
No if you read the chapters again Sasuke has a fire affinity that is common in all Uchihas as they are a fire clan and a lightning clan and with the sharingan he can copy any technique except kekkei genkeis

Naruto can probably learn all chakra natures due to his large chakra reserve and ability to do KB training but so could Sasuke by cheating ala Sharingan. Oro hasn't shown much elemental jutsus instead mostly snake jutsus
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Old 2008-03-31, 15:12   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I didn't get that from reading those chapters again when Naruto was training. I believe that having an affinity only means that it's much easier for you to learn that particular element. I don't think it has anything to do with less chakra usage. As Kakashi said, learning to manipulate elemental chakra takes a very long time. That's why most jounin don't got beyond learning thier own affinity and another element. Only the truly talented like the Third and Orochimaru, those with bloodline limits, or those who acquired their power like Kakuzu, were capable of using many(and yin/yang?) element jutsus at a very high level. Naruto got around this by using the kage bunshin training. Since I see Naruto in the truly talented class, there is no reason he can't master every element. At worst I see him as jonin level(only in power) right now which means he needs to learn another element. Likely water before any Sasuke, Pein, or Madara fight.

Sasuke only has one affinity. Lightening like Kakashi. But as an Uchiha, he was trained to master katon and makes it just as powerful as his lightening. With training anyone can master any element.
I didn't refer to Naruto's training and Kakashi's explanation but to all the kage and jounin level fights we saw. 3rd hokage did use earth and fire, 2nd did use water, Kisame used water, etc. These guys were all geniuses, so it's not really about learning or not learning something. But look at the Naruto elemental training too: Kakashi did check Naruto's affinity with the special paper test, that clearly is the test of someones genetic trait. It's like testing what type of blood you have, or at what type of inteligence are you better (mathematics or languages or whatever). So it's something that you are born with and cannot learn. Kakuzu's example is again just showing that it's a genetic trait: Kakuzu steals hearts of other people to gain the affinity that those people have.

Pein is a special case, probably the rinnegan power, as Jiraiya said Pein has mastered all elements quite easily. We don't know if it means an equally strong affinity for all or that Pein can learn very fast because of his rinnegan. And it was not the affinity of the 6 bodies added back then, because Nagato existed only in one bady at the time of Jiraiya training them.
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Old 2008-03-31, 15:13   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I didn't get that from reading those chapters again when Naruto was training. I believe that having an affinity only means that it's much easier for you to learn that particular element. I don't think it has anything to do with less chakra usage. As Kakashi said, learning to manipulate elemental chakra takes a very long time. That's why most jounin don't got beyond learning thier own affinity and another element. Only the truly talented like the Third and Orochimaru, those with bloodline limits, or those who acquired their power like Kakuzu, were capable of using many(and yin/yang?) element jutsus at a very high level. Naruto got around this by using the kage bunshin training. Since I see Naruto in the truly talented class, there is no reason he can't master every element. At worst I see him as jonin level(only in power) right now which means he needs to learn another element. Likely water before any Sasuke, Pein, or Madara fight.
That is where chakra control and usage comes in. Naruto could go an learn a Fire Jutsu tomorrow, and he would be able to perform it, but since he has not trained in that particular element (as he has with Wind) hew would unbdoubtedly use more chakra than is really necessary to perform the technique. Addmitedly Naruto is a special case because he has a simply amazing chakra reserve and ability to replenish his used chakra, so using to much chakra is almost unnoticable to him.

Additionally, I thought that only combination jutsu, such as Wood, could be created when you have an affinity for two elements? Is that wrong?

So far the Rinnegan has been the only mention of something/someone being able to master all elements, what Kakuzu did was considered unique (i.e. Kakashi was suprised that Kakuzu was a master of all elements save the sixth). But if anyone could master all elements it would be Naruto .
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Old 2008-03-31, 15:15   Link #92
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Due to the rin'negan Nagato probably had all affinities and Kakuzu stole peoples hearts so he can become immortal he probably just noticed that he finds it easyto use other elements due to the heart's chakra nature
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Old 2008-03-31, 16:29   Link #93
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This reminds me of the thread I made a while back.

Needless to say, all ninjas have one and only one affinity. When a clan is born out of two affinities, you can effectively call that a kekkei genkai.

Now I don't agree on the fact you can just "learn" other elemental jutsu. Why? Because any stupid jounin can probably master water and wind and form it up into an ice jutsu. As Kakashi/Yamato explained, Water and wind in either hands, seal, et voila. Ice Jutsu anyone?

If it was so easy to learn, then Kakashi's mastery of both water and earth jutsus should be able to produce competent mokuton (wood). I don't think a kekkei genkai just suddenly pops out of nowhere. To me, it's the slow growing merger between the recurring two elements inside the clan or family that leads to the creation of a kekkei genkai.

I don't believe there is enough information on how elemental affinities work just yet, I hope Kishimoto will elaborate on it. But don't hold your breath.
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Old 2008-03-31, 16:49   Link #94
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This reminds me of the thread I made a while back.

Needless to say, all ninjas have one and only one affinity. When a clan is born out of two affinities, you can effectively call that a kekkei genkai.

Now I don't agree on the fact you can just "learn" other elemental jutsu. Why? Because any stupid jounin can probably master water and wind and form it up into an ice jutsu. As Kakashi/Yamato explained, Water and wind in either hands, seal, et voila. Ice Jutsu anyone?

If it was so easy to learn, then Kakashi's mastery of both water and earth jutsus should be able to produce competent mokuton (wood). I don't think a kekkei genkai just suddenly pops out of nowhere. To me, it's the slow growing merger between the recurring two elements inside the clan or family that leads to the creation of a kekkei genkai.

I don't believe there is enough information on how elemental affinities work just yet, I hope Kishimoto will elaborate on it. But don't hold your breath.
No, most ninjas have only 1 affinity jounins and kage's usually have 2 it is a kekkei genkei to use 2 at the same time combined together with only 1 person, Kakashi said himself Mokuton is a kekkei genkei like Haku's jutsus and kekkei genkeis are usually just genetic mutations in my opinion also Kakashi said that 'Jounin class ninjas usually have at LEAST 2 affinities' so it is possible to have more without a kekkei genkei and Kakashi said he can control elements other than thunder and it says that peoples chakra naturally leans towards one chakra nature and Kakashi said that people with one chakra affinity are good with that nature's jutsus
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Old 2008-03-31, 21:57   Link #95
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No if you read the chapters again Sasuke has a fire affinity that is common in all Uchihas as they are a fire clan and a lightning clan and with the sharingan he can copy any technique except kekkei genkeis
It's been stated you can only have one affinity. Sasuke's affinity is lightening. Kakashi says this. Now are all Uchiha born with a fire affinity? I guess so, but I never read about the Uchiha also being a lightening clan. So why would Sasuke have a lightening affinity? People with two affinities combine them to form another element. Like the First and Yamato or Haku. It's always part of their fighting style. Sasuke has yet to do this. If Sasuke's bloodline limit allowed him to combine fire and lightening to create a new powerful element, then I am sure Orochimaru or Kakashi would have trained him in this. Something doesn't make sense.

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Needless to say, all ninjas have one and only one affinity. When a clan is born out of two affinities, you can effectively call that a kekkei genkai.

Now I don't agree on the fact you can just "learn" other elemental jutsu. Why? Because any stupid jounin can probably master water and wind and form it up into an ice jutsu. As Kakashi/Yamato explained, Water and wind in either hands, seal, et voila. Ice Jutsu anyone?

If it was so easy to learn, then Kakashi's mastery of both water and earth jutsus should be able to produce competent mokuton (wood). I don't think a kekkei genkai just suddenly pops out of nowhere. To me, it's the slow growing merger between the recurring two elements inside the clan or family that leads to the creation of a kekkei genkai.
Any ninja can learn elemental jutsu. They have an easier time learning their affinity. You can't learn to combine two elements to create a new element. Only people with a kekkei genkai can. You can combine two different elements to make a new jutsu. Yamato and Naruto already did this against Kakuzu.
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Old 2008-03-31, 22:57   Link #96
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Any ninja can learn elemental jutsu. They have an easier time learning their affinity. You can't learn to combine two elements to create a new element. Only people with a kekkei genkai can. You can combine two different elements to make a new jutsu. Yamato and Naruto already did this against Kakuzu.
Um, Mokuton is not actually considered a kekkei genkai (neither was Satetsu), so that kind of disproves the claim that a person can not have two affinties and make a new element without having a bloodline trait. But, it seems affinties can be passed on genetically (i.e. Mokuton was unique gentically to Shodaima). It is entirely possible to have two elemental affinties without having a bloodline.

As to Sasuke having more than one; it is clearly said by Naruto that Sasuke has two affinities, and since Kakashi never denies Naruto's conclusion, that can only mean that Naruto was correct in his assumption.
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Old 2008-03-31, 23:15   Link #97
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Take haku and his Hyoton it was supposedly his Kekkei Genkai but im sure there are others that can make ice
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Old 2008-04-01, 06:32   Link #98
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I cleary remember kakashi saying that uchiha's including sasuke had fire as for their primary element, and that they learned how to use it very soon ( sasuke learned that breath of fire when he was a kid!). And that in sasuke's case (not uchiha's) he learned that he had lightning as he's second element (thus when he was older he learned chidori). To combine those two he had to have a specific bloodline that mixed both, which so far he hasn't. My point is that beeing fire sasuke's primary element, and learning how to use it so soon, why the hell are most of his jutsus lightning?? It does'nt make sense!
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Old 2008-04-01, 07:26   Link #99
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Um, Mokuton is not actually considered a kekkei genkai (neither was Satetsu), so that kind of disproves the claim that a person can not have two affinties and make a new element without having a bloodline trait.
As a matter of fact Mokuton is considered a Kekkai Genkai. The ability of the 3rd Kazekage might only be a secret jutsu unique to him using a particular form of Raiton but it's also probably a Kekkai Genkai.

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I cleary remember kakashi saying that uchiha's including sasuke had fire as for their primary element, and that they learned how to use it very soon ( sasuke learned that breath of fire when he was a kid!). And that in sasuke's case (not uchiha's) he learned that he had lightning as he's second element (thus when he was older he learned chidori). To combine those two he had to have a specific bloodline that mixed both, which so far he hasn't. My point is that beeing fire sasuke's primary element, and learning how to use it so soon, why the hell are most of his jutsus lightning?? It does'nt make sense!
Sasuke's element of choice is lightning but fire affinity was very common into the Uchiha and symbolized their clan. You couldn't be seen as an adult as long as you didn't know how to use Katon which is why Goukakyuu no jutsu is the first, and apparently sole, jutsu his father taugh to Sasuke before he was killed.
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Old 2008-04-01, 07:35   Link #100
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I cleary remember kakashi saying that uchiha's including sasuke had fire as for their primary element, and that they learned how to use it very soon ( sasuke learned that breath of fire when he was a kid!). And that in sasuke's case (not uchiha's) he learned that he had lightning as he's second element (thus when he was older he learned chidori). To combine those two he had to have a specific bloodline that mixed both, which so far he hasn't. My point is that being fire sasuke's primary element, and learning how to use it so soon, why the hell are most of his jutsus lightning?? It doesn't make sense!
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Easy, Kishi F**ked up. He gave in to the pressures of the Sasuke fanboy cult global network. Though until its is explained its probably one of the perks the creator added to Sasuke when he decided that Sasuke, was his favorite character.

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Sasuke's element of choice is lightning but fire affinity was very common into the Uchiha and symbolized their clan. You couldn't be seen as an adult as long as you didn't know how to use Katon which is why Goukakyuu no jutsu is the first, and apparently sole, jutsu his father taugh to Sasuke before he was killed.
What do you mean by Sasuke's element of choice is lightning?
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