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Old 2007-11-10, 00:15   Link #41
WONDERMIKE
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btw, grimmjow said something like "hahahaha my powers are back" when orihime restored his arm.. next thing: why did he wait to "cerofy" lupi until his arm was back?
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Old 2007-11-10, 00:25   Link #42
Seraphis
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Shinigami's get Bankai's when they achieve a certain amount of spirit power/training/whatever. So why would vaizards not have a Bankai since they outclass a shinigami in every aspect? Why do you think their situations were so drastically different to Ichigo's? Vaizards supposedly had reached the limit of their Shinigami abilities.

I don't understand what you are talking about with the two release states of Espada, drawing their sword and releasing? Shinji could and probably does have a Shikai, and then a Bankai to unleash, while Grimmjaw only had his release left.
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Old 2007-11-10, 00:40   Link #43
Lelite
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Originally Posted by Seraphis View Post
Shinigami's get Bankai's when they achieve a certain amount of spirit power/training/whatever. So why would vaizards not have a Bankai since they outclass a shinigami in every aspect? Why do you think their situations were so drastically different to Ichigo's? Vaizards supposedly had reached the limit of their Shinigami abilities.

I don't understand what you are talking about with the two release states of Espada, drawing their sword and releasing? Shinji could and probably does have a Shikai, and then a Bankai to unleash, while Grimmjaw only had his release left.
1. Because unlike Ichigo, the Vaizards were really dead and really shinigami. And since it seems like they aren't that well remembered in SS (thus far) they probably weren't captains, or anyone significantly strong.

2. If you were paying closer attention, Grimmjow said he had his released form, and then his TRUE released form. If you wached Szyael vs. Renji/Ishida, you'd notice that Szyael's power was first at a certain level, but then he got "serious" and his power output and techniques increased by a lot. Therefore, shen Ichigo had his mask + bankai and Shinji had his mask, Grimmjow was still in his very weakest form, and had two more to go.

Plus he was missing an arm. And as Wondermike pointed out, Grimm did shout something about "getting his powers back" when his arm was restored. Maybe there was more to it than simply having one less appendage.



....It seems like this whole discussion is just an argument between Grimmjow fanthings and Shinji fanthings. I'll be honest right now and say that as characters, I prefer Grimmjow to Shinji, even though the later is still on my 'favourite character' list.
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Old 2007-11-10, 01:10   Link #44
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1. Yes, but you are assuming that since they got their Vaizard powers, they stopped training completely, forgot about Bankai, and then continued living under a rock.

2. Then both Shinji and Grimmjow had two stages left.

I think Grimmjow just meant he was back to full capacity, unless his arm is like Samson's hair.
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Old 2007-11-10, 01:27   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Seraphis View Post
1. Yes, but you are assuming that since they got their Vaizard powers, they stopped training completely, forgot about Bankai, and then continued living under a rock.

2. Then both Shinji and Grimmjow had two stages left.

I think Grimmjow just meant he was back to full capacity, unless his arm is like Samson's hair.
1. Well, yeah. Notice how since Ichigo became a Vaizard, he hardly ever interacted with Zangetsu. And he doesn't train with his sword anymore, just his mask. We were never trully explained if aquiring Hollow powers (for a shinigami) meant that they just got a new power level and continued functioning like a stronger Shinigami, or if they were stronger simply because they got hollow powers and more reatsu. More reatsu =/= Bankai. Kenpachi is a good example of this.

2. Grimmjow had two for sure, whereas Shinji most likely had one - maybe two.

Maybe the amount of reatsu is dependent on the surface area of the body, or something. Yay, let's get scientific. Still, it kind of did sound like he was implying that he was more powerful.

Maybe the number '6' on his back has something to do with it.
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Old 2007-11-10, 02:23   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
I had made a similar thread ages back I will repeat what I had said ... Firstly if you love a character thats good but when indulging in a serious discussion take your I love XX character into a Fan Club Thread not here . Espada are overrated Vizards are underrated . Who is stronger only time will tell . Using Ichigo as measuring stick in comparision to Season 1 and Season 2 stupid . its too early to tell

* Ichigo with his mask time its safe to say is the weakest of Vizards again using him or epitomizing him as the Vizard is wrong. Letís talk about Shinji in my books pawned GJ . In the manga, it was Shinji 1 GJ 0 minus the flashy moves given to him in the anime. Also there NO a$$ whooping in the manga during Ichigo Vs GJ 1. Ichigo was beaten badly but not whooped.

* GJ had one arm : even if GJ had 3 arms it wouldnt have changed the result . GJ was never using his arms in combat he was using his zanpakuto .

* GJ was exhausted and injured : yes he was injured and beaten . But he suffered no serious injuries . Also being an part of Espada a killing Machine he shouldnít have time to take out a Vizard who hadnít even released

* Shinji may not even have a shikai : Itís funny how people forget the whole Hollow training . So seriously after seeing how hard hollow submission does driving your zanpakuto into submission seem harder .

Ask yourself this Controlling Hollow / Controlling Zanpakuto, which is more brutal and harder

Shinji won against GJ so is it safe to say Vizard > Espada NO . The answer is no using GJ as a measuring stick is ridiculous ,
haha seriously you are the one being in love with your Shinji and making bias comments here. Vizards fanclub??

o cmon ! how can losing a arm not make any difference in a battle ???
try playing badminton tennis with only an arm..... THATS like giving e oponents huge handicap... u need both arms to surge forward quickly and balance and even more power while smashing...

after taking most of HOLLOW Ichigo's pointblank Getsuga tensou and u're telling that doest make ani difference>>......
after exchanging blows with HOLLOW ichigo, i think Grimm had half of his stamina gona not to say that Shinji is still fresh....

or maybe Rukia's frozen shikai had actually coolen Grimmj and had him refreshed...

hmmm.....
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Old 2007-11-10, 02:33   Link #47
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Originally Posted by F3rNanD3s View Post
haha seriously you are the one being in love with your Shinji and making bias comments here. Vizards fanclub??

o cmon ! how can losing a arm not make any difference in a battle ???
try playing badminton tennis with only an arm..... THATS like giving e oponents huge handicap... u need both arms to surge forward quickly and balance and even more power while smashing...

after taking most of HOLLOW Ichigo's pointblank Getsuga tensou and u're telling that doest make ani difference>>......
after exchanging blows with HOLLOW ichigo, i think Grimm had half of his stamina gona not to say that Shinji is still fresh....

or maybe Rukia's frozen shikai had actually coolen Grimmj and had him refreshed...

hmmm.....
Firstly this isn’t I love GJ thread or a character discussion thread so if you want to speculate do so by creating a new thread . Secondly it’s an Espada =/= Vizard Thread and GJ is nothing but a low level 6 also an adjucas . I don’t remember Toshiro ever saying that Adjucas > Taichos , let alone Vizards …

And dude GJ is the sexta Espada he got injured hurt by a KGT and Ice that makes Espada pathetic doesnt it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelite
Wrong
I think you need to refer the manga before going on a morbid speculation spree.. GJ DOESN’T use two arms to wield his Zanpkuto . In fact he uses only one

Spoiler for Manga:


Quote:
Also, let's not forget that Espada technically have TWO release states - like Shikai and Bankai, and by the time we faced the end of Grimmjow vs. Ichigo
Actually where did you get this info ? Everyone had hoped Espada would have two release states but sadly they have one as numeros

Quote:
and later vs. Shinji, both Ichigo and Shinji pulled some of their trump cards, while Grimmjow had pulled nothing.
Lets get down to the basic

Arrancar = Hollow~Shinigami Hybrid

Vizard = Shinigami~Hollow Hybrid

GJ is an adjucas who became an Arrancar . Same way Shinji and Ichigo are Vizards . If GJ was fighting in his adjucas state and Shinji used the triumph card the mask I would call it cheating . But alas it isn’t so Shinji was fighting an arrancarized Adjucas so how was the mask a triumph card ?. It was leveling the playing field

Secondly if you want to speculate and make the comparison make it with the top3/4 they maybe VL there is a possibility don’t use adjucas comparison
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Old 2007-11-10, 03:01   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
Firstly this isnít I love GJ thread or a character discussion thread so if you want to speculate do so by creating a new thread . Secondly itís an Espada =/= Vizard Thread and GJ is nothing but a low level 6 also an adjucas . I donít remember Toshiro ever saying that Adjucas > Taichos , let alone Vizards Ö

And dude GJ is the sexta Espada he got injured hurt by a KGT and Ice that makes Espada pathetic doesnt it
... still that doesnt backup your point at all. -.-

If a person was actually caught offguard totally and gotten a backlash by another, no matter how lowly or minor the attack can be, he still suffered damage.
Its like sum1 backstabbed you from behind with just a small dagger, and that does it. it kills.
Give credits to Grimmj he actually survived that without a scratch.

And also to that 'losing-arm-doesnt-make-a-diff-thoery' of yours, its so absurb.... they actually made no sense at all.
With an exrrta arm, Grimmj can do a lot of things with that like e case when he was blocking Ichigo Zanpakutoh with his, he can actually use his other arm to attaCk him. or even cero him.

and the latest few episodes even showed how confident GRimmj was to actually exterminate Luppi right at e spot when he got his arm back. that laughter aft that actually signified h0w he needed that arm !!
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Old 2007-11-10, 03:10   Link #49
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With an exrrta arm, Grimmj can do a lot of things with that like e case when he was blocking Ichigo Zanpakutoh with his, he can actually use his other arm to attaCk him. or even cero him.
He can shoot cero with his zanpakuto bearing arm and only with that arm . Just as Yammi can shoot cero with ONLY his mouth same manner GJ can shoot cero with that arm not with OTHER ARMS

Spoiler for Manga:
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Old 2007-11-10, 04:46   Link #50
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Originally Posted by F3rNanD3s View Post
and the latest few episodes even showed how confident GRimmj was to actually exterminate Luppi right at e spot when he got his arm back. that laughter aft that actually signified h0w he needed that arm !!
I've always wondered about that. Really, it didn't seem like he needed two arms finish Luppi (he used one arm to kill him). He definitely had the strength to kill Luppi anytime he wanted, just Aizen wouldn't allow him to be an espada missing an arm (Ulq said Yami would've suffered the same fate if he had permanently lost his arm) I think Grimm assumed Aizen asking Orihime to restore his arm was the signal that he had been "rehired". And when he got back his arm he celebrated by "firing" Luppi.

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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
He can shoot cero with his zanpakuto bearing arm and only with that arm . Just as Yammi can shoot cero with ONLY his mouth same manner GJ can shoot cero with that arm not with OTHER ARMS
Minor nitpick. Grimm has been shown to shoot cero with either arm. He just always holds his zanpakuto with his other hand, but all his ceros are one-handed. Your point remains. He doesn't really rely heavily on two-handed fighting.

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Spoiler for Manga:
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-11-10, 04:56   Link #51
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by the way.. when you say the vaizards dont have shikai.. i find it very unlikely, infact impossible. they have bankai or (should have) too.. remember, before ichigos inner hollow battle, hiyori made ichigo run on that walker thing to see his spirit power.. according to that estimate, all the vaizards have to have a LOT of spirit power to control their hollows. therefore i believe they do atleast have shikai if not bankai.. why do i think that the vaizard are somehow related to urhara?
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Old 2007-11-10, 05:02   Link #52
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all the vaizards have to have a LOT of spirit power to control their hollows. therefore i believe they do atleast have shikai if not bankai.. why do i think that the vaizard are somehow related to urhara?
Yeah, but huge amount of spiritual power doesn't grant shikai or bankai. Which is why Kenpachi has huge spirit power and no bankai. His Zanpakuto is unreleased shikai state, but since he doesn't know its name it has no special ability. He can only use it as a normal sword.
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Old 2007-11-10, 09:29   Link #53
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i think its too early to judge wether the vzard got shikai/bankai or not, they may not hav show it cos they didnt need to and they may not be mentioned in SS for other reasons, such as being considered a dirty secret of SS since they got a hollow side to them.

Vizard isnt > Espada nor is it the other way aroumd , it depends on the individual
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Old 2007-11-10, 15:55   Link #54
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Having a second arm adds to balance.

Having a second arm means you can defend and attack at the same time.

Having a second arm means you can cover both sides of your body when you're attacked.

Having a second arm means you don't have to toss away your sword in order to preform an attack that doesn't require a sword.

If having two arms is useless, why do we all have two, and suffer a lot if we don't? I mean, I'm abidexterous, so I can't really say anything here, but what does a right-handed man need his left hand for? He hardly ever uses it. Why don't we just chop it off? It'll do loads of good for him - for one his heart wouldn't have to work as hard. He wouldn't have to eat as much, and his body will be lighter.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure Grimmjow used two hands to "whoop" Ichigo's ass. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Quote:
Firstly this isn’t I love GJ thread or a character discussion thread so if you want to speculate do so by creating a new thread.
....Nor is this an "I Love Shinji" thread, last time I checked. Although it's definitely slowly trying to become one. You're speculating about as much as anyone here, so, why don't you set a good example for everyone and not be a hypocrit?

Secondly, it has been heavily implied several times that Aizen does not have any Vasto Lordes under his command. I'm pretty sure Hitsugaya said on more than one occasion that as soon as Aizen finds himself Vasto Lordes, SS is doomed. Which is why SS is still alive, and why Aizen is trying so desperately to find some.

Quote:
Actually where did you get this info ? Everyone had hoped Espada would have two release states but sadly they have one as numeros
Nope, they have two. I already explained this. Bleach 286-7ish, or something like that. They have their release, and then their true release. Grimmjow explicitly says something like "This is my ultimate release" or something along the lines. Szayel also demonstrated two power levels of his release. It's not as definite as shikai and bankai, persay, but they're definitely two seperate things.

Spoiler for After Grimm vs. Ichi round 3:


Espada are hardly overrated. If you compare the number of Vaizard/Shinji/Ichigo fanthings anywhere - including this thread - to the number of Espada fanthings, the first outnumber the second at least by 100%. The good guys are never underrated when you compare them to the villians.

Lastly.... where can I find this info that says Shinji's Vaizards are stronger than a captain? I can understand that logic if we consider Aizen, Gin and Tousen as Vaizards, because they were already really strong - and captain-level.

Last edited by Lelite; 2007-11-10 at 16:02. Reason: misspelling
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Old 2007-11-10, 22:10   Link #55
Zu Ra
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Originally Posted by Lelite View Post
Having a second arm adds to balance.

Having a second arm means you can defend and attack at the same time.

Having a second arm means you can cover both sides of your body when you're attacked.

Having a second arm means you don't have to toss away your sword in order to preform an attack that doesn't require a sword.

If having two arms is useless, why do we all have two, and suffer a lot if we don't? I mean, I'm abidexterous, so I can't really say anything here, but what does a right-handed man need his left hand for? He hardly ever uses it. Why don't we just chop it off? It'll do loads of good for him - for one his heart wouldn't have to work as hard. He wouldn't have to eat as much, and his body will be lighter
.
So I said even if GJ had three arms the result would be same as GJ is not ambidextrous GJ just uses one arm . If he cant defend himself not even attack against a Vizard who doesn’t even use shikai ala Sexta is pretty much trash .

Quote:
Lastly, I'm pretty sure Grimmjow used two hands to "whoop" Ichigo's ass. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Wow he did use two arms to whoop Ichi's A$$ In the manga chapter 211, he did not use two arms he was use his right arm and kicks

Quote:
....Nor is this an "I Love Shinji" thread, last time I checked. Although it's definitely slowly trying to become one. You're speculating about as much as anyone here, so, why don't you set a good example for everyone and not be a hypocrit?

Ac tually I did not make any comments to state I love Shinji Shinji pawns the Espada or I like Vizards And I am not even a Shinji fan. You want me to quote your Rabid Retarded Fangirlism . I would gladly quote you .

I had cleary stated its to early to say anything .....




Quote:
Nope, they have two. I already explained this. Bleach 286-7ish, or something like that. They have their release, and then their true release. Grimmjow explicitly says something like "This is my ultimate release" or something along the lines. Szayel also demonstrated two power levels of his release. It's not as definite as shikai and bankai, persay, but they're definitely two seperate things.
Once again stop making stuff up its not there in the manga if it there tell me the exact page. 4 Espada have released so far they did not have two arrancar releases


Spoiler for After Grimm vs. Ichi round 3:


Quote:
Espada are hardly overrated. If you compare the number of Vaizard/Shinji/Ichigo fanthings anywhere - including this thread - to the number of Espada fanthings, the first outnumber the second at least by 100%. The good guys are never underrated when you compare them to the villians.
HM Arc was a cheap rip off of the SS arc . And couple of weeks Bleach was at the bottom of SJ Ratings the only time it peaked was with Nel. If the Espada were such a crowd pullers would KT need to bring in Captains . And the last two chapter of Bleach have come in the top 3 of SJ Ratings .

If the Espada were not overated did they need to bring the Capatains to boost the ratings of the HM ARC
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Old 2007-11-11, 01:23   Link #56
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Following your logic, I never explicitly stated that I love Grimmjow either, just that I prefer him to Shinji. He isn't even my favourite Bleach character. One does not need to say what they are outright - their actions will speak for themselves.

Bleach Chapter 285, page 5-6. Grimmjow's Desugaron. Although it can also be treated as something similar to Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou, but I'd align GT more along the lines of those weird projectiles Grimmjow shoots out of his elbows.

When Sazyel first transfomed, he made copies of all of the other guys there (Ishida, Renji, Dondo and Pesche) and just made them attack. Then, when he got "serious", he made little weird voodoo dolls - again, to different levels of attacking. As I said, they're not as clear-cut as shikai vs. bankai, ala "big and bigger", but it seems like the Espada still use it as a "ladder" of sorts. If I remember correctly, the Numeros only released and used whatever abilities came with their release - they had, or at least didn't show, anything beyond that.

Spoiler for While we're at it...:


Also, lol wut? Ichigo - the weakest Vaizard? He might not be able to keep his mask out for long, but I'm pretty sure his giant-ass reatsu makes up for whatever mask problems he might have, especially now that he's improved so much. It also seems like Hichigo is a force to be reconned with. I kind of doubt he's the weakest Vaizard now. He may not be as experienced as they are, but it kind of seemed like Ichigo was a stronger shinigami than any of the vaizards were in their shinigami days. Although, it's never been revealed if the Vaizard group became Vaizards because they wanted more power or because they were born with the hollow inside, like Ichigo.

You and I seem to have different definitions of "overrated" and "underrated". For example, I think Byakuya and Hitsugaya are "overrated" while Mayuri and Szayel are "underrated". It would make perfect sense to bring in the captains to support the "underrated" Espada.

Well, like any shonen manga, Bleach runs in cycles or repition. 'Ts always been like that.

Last edited by Lelite; 2007-11-11 at 01:37.
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Old 2007-11-11, 04:25   Link #57
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Yeah same here I too hate Noi for being a Sexist SOB he cant stand women on top talk about a small ego . I will leave the fanfiction part of two releases aside

Quote:
Also, lol wut? Ichigo - the weakest Vaizard? He might not be able to keep his mask out for long, but I'm pretty sure his giant-ass reatsu makes up for whatever mask problems he might have, especially now that he's improved so much
The Giant a$$ reatsu how could I forget that …… yes it did wonders for him healed him faster closed his wounds ……….

Erm that was like in Season 1 of the manga in season 2 of the manga there hasn’t been a case where his reatsu has aided him or helped him …. Lets give Ichi the benefit of doubt and say the hollow was interfering and he couldn’t channelize his reatsu . BUT after his Vizard training when he fought GJ for the second time where was his massive A$$ reatru helping him after his mask broke ….. The reatsu should have saved the day but it didn’t .

As I said a lot many times don’t use power levels from season 1 to make the comparison in season 2 . Ichi was awesome spectacular in SS Arc ….. in the succeeding arcs he is shell of that very same person

As we know the tip of Vizard powers currently mask time is equal to everything and there wasn’t any signs of Hichigo in whole HM arc .
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Old 2007-11-11, 11:15   Link #58
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well i highly doubt ANY of the vizard team has bankai. why?
well they have been shinigami in the past.
i believe it was byakuya that said a bankai relaese is the pinneacle of shinigami power, i doubt the no of people having a bankai would be that high, since having a bankai immediatly puts you at captain level..

also all the vizards looked very surprised at ichigo's hollow power. so i dont know what the other vizards power is.. i suspect Shinji is (was) only stronger then Ichigo due to the fact he can hold the vizard transformation much longer.
if that fact was out of the way i think Ichigo is better then Shinji.



if i need to choose which of the two i like best, vizard or espada, i'd go for espada. but that's just my love for the darkness
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Old 2007-11-11, 11:52   Link #59
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Originally Posted by stjeppe View Post
well i highly doubt ANY of the vizard team has bankai. why?
well they have been shinigami in the past.
i believe it was byakuya that said a bankai relaese is the pinneacle of shinigami power, i doubt the no of people having a bankai would be that high, since having a bankai immediatly puts you at captain level..

also all the vizards looked very surprised at ichigo's hollow power. so i dont know what the other vizards power is.. i suspect Shinji is (was) only stronger then Ichigo due to the fact he can hold the vizard transformation much longer.
if that fact was out of the way i think Ichigo is better then Shinji.



if i need to choose which of the two i like best, vizard or espada, i'd go for espada. but that's just my love for the darkness
renji and ikkaku both hav bankai and are not captains.

personally i think shinji is more powerful then grim but only just about, i think ichigo has the potential to b more powerful then the other vizard bcos this is an unimaginative seriese and ulq alrdy stated that ichigos power can spike to lvls higher then his own or something along those lines,but that doesnt mean the vizard are weak.
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Old 2007-11-11, 12:20   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelite
1. Because unlike Ichigo, the Vaizards were really dead and really shinigami. And since it seems like they aren't that well remembered in SS (thus far) they probably weren't captains, or anyone significantly strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stjeppe
well i highly doubt ANY of the vizard team has bankai. why?
well they have been shinigami in the past.
i believe it was byakuya that said a bankai relaese is the pinneacle of shinigami power, i doubt the no of people having a bankai would be that high, since having a bankai immediatly puts you at captain level..
Actually, we have no way of verifying how well known each of the individual Vizards actually are. The only time we would find such things out is when one character sees them and reconizes them... however, thus far, very few characters have had the opportunity to meet them. The only ones to see the whole group were Ichigo and Orihime, and niether of them would be familar with shinigami's from the past. the only shinigami to meet the vizards so far was Rukia, who met Shinji... however, it is unknown how old Shinji is and as such it could be that he was a shinigami from before Rukia's time; just as Rukia does not reconize Ichigo's father... Ichigo's father is a perfect example of a powerful shinigami who apparently is not well reconized amognst most "younger" shinigami

the vizards could come from a crop of shinigami that would only be reconized by the likes of Isshin, Urahara and Yama; or any other older shinigami. Until the vizards have a run in with one of the older shinigami, and the shigami either does or does not reconzie them, we will not know how well they were known... If somone like Yama meets Shinji and has little to no memory of him then he probably wasn't anyone special, but if he was somone special, then when someone like Yama meets with him, we will get a nice "*gasp* Your such and such, the fomer yadda yadda" kind of moment, and willl know wo he used to be... so far, due to little interaction between shingami and vizards, we have not had such a chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelite
Nope, they have two. I already explained this. Bleach 286-7ish, or something like that. They have their release, and then their true release. Grimmjow explicitly says something like "This is my ultimate release" or something along the lines. Szayel also demonstrated two power levels of his release. It's not as definite as shikai and bankai, persay, but they're definitely two seperate things.
Quote:
Bleach Chapter 285, page 5-6. Grimmjow's Desugaron. Although it can also be treated as something similar to Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou, but I'd align GT more along the lines of those weird projectiles Grimmjow shoots out of his elbows.
do remember this is a non-manga thread, so use Spoiler tags
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