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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 6 Rating
Perfect 10 6 6.82%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 19 21.59%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 29.55%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 22.73%
6 out of 10 : Average 10 11.36%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 3.41%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 3.41%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.14%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-11-14, 04:59   Link #141
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by minhtam2448 View Post
You're kidding me, right? Just to clarify, we knew that Yuji knew Yukari liked Hayato, but we don't know of the conversation between the gasp and the planning of the rendezvous in Episode 1, so we can't exactly say that Yuji picked it up mere moments after Yukari acted awkwardly in asking where Hayato was.
How about when his eyes popped wide open with recognition, that showed he recognised Yukari's interest in Ike. Him planning to get Yukari and Ike together shows his ability to act on the romantic recognition. They are two separate acts that are linked together. Use it how ever u like, but to me it shows that S1 epi1 Yuji is capable of recognising romantic inclinations in other people and also capable of acting upon it. Time really doesn't have an issue with that. In S2 we have had 6 episodes of Yuji acting as dense as possible in regards to girls romantic feelings. Sure Shana's can be dismissed because of her attitude (yeah right), but Yoshida's....
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Old 2007-11-14, 05:44   Link #142
holyman282
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Like they said, Yukari made it pretty obvious that she liked Ike... Asking whether he had a girlfriend...

As for Yuji and his perception in everything romance, perhaps he's just one of those characters that can see other people's romantic interests clearly but when it comes to himself, it's unclear for him....

It's just watching a game of chess from the sidelines, you can see alot of moves that would be missed by the person playing the actual game. It's all about perspective.
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Old 2007-11-14, 05:47   Link #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
As for Yuji and his perception in everything romance, perhaps he's just one of those characters that can see other people's romantic interests clearly but when it comes to himself, it's unclear for him....

It's just watching a game of chess from the sidelines, you can see alot of moves that would be missed by the person playing the actual game. It's all about perspective.
Oh, man, I wanted dibs on that statement!

But I'm in agreement here.
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Old 2007-11-14, 05:58   Link #144
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
Like they said, Yukari made it pretty obvious that she liked Ike... Asking whether he had a girlfriend...

As for Yuji and his perception in everything romance, perhaps he's just one of those characters that can see other people's romantic interests clearly but when it comes to himself, it's unclear for him....
Could mean other things. Could be Yukari trying to strike up a conversation with Yuji, some people do go about the long way and start talking about their targets friends which can cause no end of confusion. How many stories or films have you seen when the target ends up trying to help the girl/boy because of that scenario? Not uncommon neh? In this case Yuji guessed/knew right.

But the main issue is you have to make up a reason for the difference in Yuji S1 and Yuji S2. As soon as the viewer needs to make up excuses for the character's actions that in my opinion shows bad writing skills. Some stories are based on the viewer's imagination filling in the gaps, but SnS isn't one of them.
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Old 2007-11-14, 08:08   Link #145
holyman282
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Could mean other things. Could be Yukari trying to strike up a conversation with Yuji, some people do go about the long way and start talking about their targets friends which can cause no end of confusion. How many stories or films have you seen when the target ends up trying to help the girl/boy because of that scenario? Not uncommon neh? In this case Yuji guessed/knew right.

But the main issue is you have to make up a reason for the difference in Yuji S1 and Yuji S2. As soon as the viewer needs to make up excuses for the character's actions that in my opinion shows bad writing skills. Some stories are based on the viewer's imagination filling in the gaps, but SnS isn't one of them.
It's not really a reason. In real life people's actions can or cannot be explained by mere observation. Yuji's character and what's going on in his mind is still pretty vague even for us viewers. I said this before but we as a audience have been given as little information about what's going on in Yuji's head as the characters in the actual anime. Yuji is still a closed book and exuses or not, if we haven't been given much insight into his inner workings, that means you really can't conclude or judge his actions by mere observation alone.

Apart from a couple of moments where we hear what he is thinking, Yuji is basically unkown to us.. Especially in reguards to what he truly thinks about Shana. We get hints here and there from his actions, but unless we truly get some info from the source itself (his mind), you really can't conclude whether Yuji's actions are inconsistent or just have yet to be explained.. give the series more time, we're only on the 6th ep.
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Old 2007-11-14, 08:20   Link #146
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
we're only on the 6th ep.
Episode 6 in season 2. Why do people conveniently ignore 26 episodes of S1 in their defence of the consistency of Yuji?

S1 has plenty of scenes where Yuji isn't dumb to other peoples feelings or situations. All those add up and then S2 basically has him going all stoopid, to a point where his friend is going to him to be more aware. Kinda like throwing Yuji's little tantrum in the arcade back in his face neh?
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Old 2007-11-14, 08:46   Link #147
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In S1, I'd say that he knew Shana liked him, but not how. As a friend? Or as something more?

And he knew Yoshida liked him, too, but didn't want to deal with it. He was waiting for Ike to snoop in and solve everything by seducing Yoshida.


In S2, I have no idea what he thinks. Maybe he's blind to the girls' jealousy because to him, Konoe is a puppy, not a potential mate.
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Old 2007-11-14, 13:16   Link #148
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
In S1, I'd say that he knew Shana liked him, but not how. As a friend? Or as something more?

And he knew Yoshida liked him, too, but didn't want to deal with it. He was waiting for Ike to snoop in and solve everything by seducing Yoshida.


In S2, I have no idea what he thinks. Maybe he's blind to the girls' jealousy because to him, Konoe is a puppy, not a potential mate.
He knows Yoshida likes him, and wants to be friendly with her, but he can't really deal with such a possibility due to aformentioned being dead and leaving the city thing. Seems to me he basically views konoe in the same way he views her; it's just the Konoe is actually demanding, an Yuji is willing to oblige.

and as for Shana, its the same thing as always. In fact it's the exact same thing as Yuji trying to get a "present" from Shana back during the twins arc: Yuji makes advances to Shana and Shana rejects them, and so Yuji sits there unsure of what to do, since he's just a nice (read:selfless [read:stupid]) guy and can never really force his feelings onto other people, and instead just lets others force their feelings onto him. Shana acts weird, but it's mostly just Chigusa who see's the dere side, while Yuji is almost always stuck with the tsun.


Yuji hasn't changed at all, and Shana hasn't changed at all: its really inevitable, because for Yuji there's not another woman in the entire world other than Shana, because quite simply no one else is going to remember him and no one else is going to be safe around him. And for Shana, Yuji is the first man in hers, and with the life of a flame haze being what it is, that pretty much makes Yuji the only one. But at the end of the day it comes to same problem that both have had since episode 1: neither can just go ahead and admit they love the other, because Yuji isn't aggressive enough and because Shana isn't honest enough. So yeah, I can understand if people are unhappy with us watching the same situation until this story ends, but again, be clear about what's making you unhappy. Everything's the same as it was in season 1, and will probably continue to be so for the majority of this season as well.
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Old 2007-11-14, 14:02   Link #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Episode 6 in season 2. Why do people conveniently ignore 26 episodes of S1 in their defence of the consistency of Yuji?

S1 has plenty of scenes where Yuji isn't dumb to other peoples feelings or situations. All those add up and then S2 basically has him going all stoopid, to a point where his friend is going to him to be more aware. Kinda like throwing Yuji's little tantrum in the arcade back in his face neh?
Uh... 24, not 26.
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Old 2007-11-14, 15:47   Link #150
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Episode 6 in season 2. Why do people conveniently ignore 26 episodes of S1 in their defence of the consistency of Yuji?

S1 has plenty of scenes where Yuji isn't dumb to other peoples feelings or situations. All those add up and then S2 basically has him going all stoopid, to a point where his friend is going to him to be more aware. Kinda like throwing Yuji's little tantrum in the arcade back in his face neh?
isn't dumb to other's feelings maybe, but I think you've ignored my previously stated argument. That is, we don't have a deep insight into Yuji's head and hence his actions and reasons for them are quite vague...
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Old 2007-11-14, 18:38   Link #151
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
isn't dumb to other's feelings maybe, but I think you've ignored my previously stated argument. That is, we don't have a deep insight into Yuji's head and hence his actions and reasons for them are quite vague...
I haven't ignored your previous argument, and actually your post about knowing Yoshida likes him backs up my point. See there he is making decisions based on a persons feelings taking in consideration of how their situation affects it. He thoughtfully did not reciprocate her feelings in S1. <- Not dumb, not vague and more importantly a defining moment in the show about Yuji's thoughts and personality. In S2 he dangles her around for what ever reason be it free food or just the thrill of having 2 girls fight over him.

Sure he is a dumb nice guy who doesn't force his feelings on others, but that can only be taken in the sense of romance as wasn't the whole Shana thing him forcing his pov on her? But even in romance in S1 he didn't go the flow with Yoshida even though it looked like he liked her.

If you can't see the difference of Yuji in S1 compared to in S2 then that is up to you, but in S1 there has been plenty of moments when we get to see what was going on in his head. That is why we know about his angsting about not being useful to Shana, his worry about being in the city endangering people around him etc.

In terms of romance you yourself has pointed out how he has made positive actions towards Shana to be knocked back. That combined with his actions in epi 1 and 2 of S1, I interpret that as him being knowing about and being interested in romance. In S2 he starts off in the same way thinking about Shana only for us to be hit by a retcon and Yuji going all dumb.

The problem with S2 is what insight into Yuji? S1 I personally got plenty, S2 there is none that can be easily explained right now without a plot hole. He is acting overly unobservant of his situation, he doesn't seem to notice or care much about how Yoshida and Shana are obviously in pain over his actions. Sure maybe they are acting over the top too, but isn't that another sign of bad writing? Lots of people acting over the top just to build up a scenario?
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Old 2007-11-14, 19:16   Link #152
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
I haven't ignored your previous argument, and actually your post about knowing Yoshida likes him backs up my point. See there he is making decisions based on a persons feelings taking in consideration of how their situation affects it. He thoughtfully did not reciprocate her feelings in S1. <- Not dumb, not vague and more importantly a defining moment in the show about Yuji's thoughts and personality. In S2 he dangles her around for what ever reason be it free food or just the thrill of having 2 girls fight over him.

Sure he is a dumb nice guy who doesn't force his feelings on others, but that can only be taken in the sense of romance as wasn't the whole Shana thing him forcing his pov on her? But even in romance in S1 he didn't go the flow with Yoshida even though it looked like he liked her.

If you can't see the difference of Yuji in S1 compared to in S2 then that is up to you, but in S1 there has been plenty of moments when we get to see what was going on in his head. That is why we know about his angsting about not being useful to Shana, his worry about being in the city endangering people around him etc.

In terms of romance you yourself has pointed out how he has made positive actions towards Shana to be knocked back. That combined with his actions in epi 1 and 2 of S1, I interpret that as him being knowing about and being interested in romance. In S2 he starts off in the same way thinking about Shana only for us to be hit by a retcon and Yuji going all dumb.

The problem with S2 is what insight into Yuji? S1 I personally got plenty, S2 there is none that can be easily explained right now without a plot hole. He is acting overly unobservant of his situation, he doesn't seem to notice or care much about how Yoshida and Shana are obviously in pain over his actions. Sure maybe they are acting over the top too, but isn't that another sign of bad writing? Lots of people acting over the top just to build up a scenario?
Isn't having the reader/viewer conjure ideas and conclusions based on "missing" information the true essence of storywriting?
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Old 2007-11-14, 19:23   Link #153
ashlay
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
The problem with S2 is what insight into Yuji? S1 I personally got plenty, S2 there is none that can be easily explained right now without a plot hole. He is acting overly unobservant of his situation, he doesn't seem to notice or care much about how Yoshida and Shana are obviously in pain over his actions. Sure maybe they are acting over the top too, but isn't that another sign of bad writing? Lots of people acting over the top just to build up a scenario?
see, but we're the only ones seeing the pain.

Yuji saw absolutely nothing from Yoshida, just that she wasn't around at lunch. And even then he was still getting lunches from her. And again, when it comes down to it, he doesn't really care about Yoshida. He's not going to freak out because she's suddenly not imposing herself on him.

And Shana? What, you suddenly forget what happened at the end of last season? remember Shana being jealous over Yuji saying he was leaving to protect the humans in Misaki City? Yuji didn't figure out Shana wanted to hear "I want to go with you" there. Where's Yuji figuring out Shana is jealous of Kazumi? What exactly about this situation makes Yuji somehow "dumber"? Yes, there's a plot hole, which was Yuji not hearing Shana. (and that's not even really a plot hole, it's just kinda lame) But assuming you accept that, and that Yuji and Shana haven't moved to a next stage in their relationship because of that, nothing and I do mean nothing else is a plot hole. Yuji still ends up being nice to girls, (and people in general for that matter) Shana still ends up moping in places he can't see her. And after this episode we've moved from Yuji thinking "well, Shana has some problem with Konoe, and she's not showing up to practice, I should find out what it is" to "well, Shana is getting along with Konoe now, and that only took a few days, I guess it wasn't as big a problem as I thought."


At least in terms of characterization, its not bad writing at all. now if you want to argue its bad writing in terms of plot, be my guest.
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Last edited by ashlay; 2007-11-14 at 20:20.
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Old 2007-11-14, 20:16   Link #154
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his worry about being in the city endangering people around him etc.
That makes me wonder how he's going to break the news to his mom if it does eventuate in him leaving the city (provided she doesn't become a torch herself ).
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Old 2007-11-14, 20:37   Link #155
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That makes me wonder how he's going to break the news to his mom if it does eventuate in him leaving the city (provided she doesn't become a torch herself ).
Oh, that will be easy.

Yuji: Kazan, Shana and I have applied for a study abroad program in France."
Chigusa: Oh, really? Now, you two have fun!
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Old 2007-11-14, 21:15   Link #156
Masanori Ota
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Lulz.

Just checking, will this season of Shana be 24 episodes too, or 12?
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Old 2007-11-14, 21:29   Link #157
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Lulz.

Just checking, will this season of Shana be 24 episodes too, or 12?
It's 24 MINIMUM. There might be more.
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Old 2007-11-14, 22:10   Link #158
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
He knows Yoshida likes him, and wants to be friendly with her, but he can't really deal with such a possibility due to aformentioned being dead and leaving the city thing. Seems to me he basically views konoe in the same way he views her; it's just the Konoe is actually demanding, an Yuji is willing to oblige.

and as for Shana, its the same thing as always. In fact it's the exact same thing as Yuji trying to get a "present" from Shana back during the twins arc: Yuji makes advances to Shana and Shana rejects them, and so Yuji sits there unsure of what to do, since he's just a nice (read:selfless [read:stupid]) guy and can never really force his feelings onto other people, and instead just lets others force their feelings onto him. Shana acts weird, but it's mostly just Chigusa who see's the dere side, while Yuji is almost always stuck with the tsun.


Yuji hasn't changed at all, and Shana hasn't changed at all: its really inevitable, because for Yuji there's not another woman in the entire world other than Shana, because quite simply no one else is going to remember him and no one else is going to be safe around him. And for Shana, Yuji is the first man in hers, and with the life of a flame haze being what it is, that pretty much makes Yuji the only one. But at the end of the day it comes to same problem that both have had since episode 1: neither can just go ahead and admit they love the other, because Yuji isn't aggressive enough and because Shana isn't honest enough. So yeah, I can understand if people are unhappy with us watching the same situation until this story ends, but again, be clear about what's making you unhappy. Everything's the same as it was in season 1, and will probably continue to be so for the majority of this season as well.
Very well said.

I think this was all highlighted by the resolution at the end of this ep. Only Yoshida got Margery's comments directly, because they only really applied to Yoshida--the whole business of unrequited love and all that. Then Shana gets the advice secondhand, and at the end of the ep., she says, in what's supremely ironic for the viewer, that she wants to truly understand Yuuji's feelings. Of course, we all know that Yuji likes her, but it's clear that Shana remains completely mystified, in the same way that Yuji doesn't know about Shana's feelings.

What I also noticed was how indifferent Yuji was to poor Kazumi. Yuji knows Shana's upset, and is concerned about it, even if he's rather lamely perplexed. But poor Yoshida's reaction is barely commented on, and when he does notice her unhappiness, he spectacularly misreads it. I also thought Margery's comments about unrequited love as especially telling--poor Yoshida, an interesting character and sweet girl, but she'll never win over the emotionally inept, occasionally abusive, but supremely competent in all things Flame Haze, Shana.

I also think you're right that no one should expect too much "resolution" and "progress" in Shana and Yuji's relationship, until the very end of the season. That being said, I do think there's been some progress, although nothing really touching on the core issues. Yuji, for example, actually figures out that Shana skipped out on practice to make a bento for him, without her telling him. I don't think he would have figured that out in S1. Furthermore, in the reboot on the confession from S1, the premise of S2 it seems is that Yuji couldn't hear the confession. Yet he seems to have some awareness of what Shana said. This can be explained by a mix of lip-reading, and some degree of intuition on Yuji's part of what Shana's true feelings are. It's not enough to erase doubt, and the conscious idea does after Shana's denial, but somewhere in Yuji's well-meaning and romantically oblivious skull, I think he knows what's going on.

Shana also does a better job encouraging Yuji in training and other matters--compare the post-Margery eps in S1 where Yuji becomes completely demoralized. And Shana *is* less pointlessly possessive and jealous; now she gets along okay with both Konoe and Yoshida. She's even friends with the latter now.
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Old 2007-11-14, 22:13   Link #159
Aquifina
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Originally Posted by minhtam2448 View Post
Oh, that will be easy.

Yuji: Kazan, Shana and I have applied for a study abroad program in France."
Chigusa: Oh, really? Now, you two have fun!
I kinda wonder if Chigusa knows a lot more than she lets on--for example, that she has some knowledge about the Crimson world.

That being said, if there was any teenager a mother could completely trust, it would be Yuji.
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Old 2007-11-14, 22:23   Link #160
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Haha, Chigusa is actually a Crimson Lord--she's just suppressing her power level.

*quietly writes off this third of the series to useless filler*
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