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Old 2007-11-24, 18:10   Link #61
dom33
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well fafnir, dean and sniper have said things that i wanted to say this won't be as long as i thought.

i believe fafnir's theory about parners is correct that setsuna is provides close range defense for lockon who provides long range support for setsuna. this can be seen in allelujah and tieria respectively.here's my theory on celestial being's battle formation.

exia: close range
dynames: sniper
kyrios: fighter/close range/mid range/bomber or multi-purpose
virtue: powerhouse gunner

(though dynames seems to have a gun meant to deal with close rangers)

now onto reinforcements and range of vision, as sniper pointed out when one gundam destroys an enemy unit that unit's allies will rush to the scene to avenge their fallen comrade and while there are chances that some of them specialize in long range combat, the others can just as easily specialize in close range combat. this also allows us to consider the idea that setsuna specializes in close range combat.
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Old 2007-11-24, 19:42   Link #62
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
The official reason stated by the HG Exia model kits as to why the Exia uses solid blades is that the GN Beam Sabers and Beam Daggers can be affected/diffused by various atmospheric conditions, thus despite their power the alternative GN Blades and GN Sword are still Exia's preferred weapons.
And then we have Lockon coming along and doing pinpoint precision ground-to-orbit attacks. Needless to say that such shooting is far more prone to errors than the beam saber ever could be. If the beam shot manages to travel from earth to orbit exactly the way it is intended to, i can't see any atmospheric conditions affecting the saber that is getting constant energy feed to any noteworthy degree.
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Old 2007-11-24, 20:19   Link #63
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
And then we have Lockon coming along and doing pinpoint precision ground-to-orbit attacks. Needless to say that such shooting is far more prone to errors than the beam saber ever could be. If the beam shot manages to travel from earth to orbit exactly the way it is intended to, i can't see any atmospheric conditions affecting the saber that is getting constant energy feed to any noteworthy degree.
Other than the fact that it takes 20 seconds of charging and condensing to create the beam shot?

It is obvious why the solid blades are preferable, anyway; it is reliable. Beam tech is still new, so CB doesn't want to depend on it alone.

This just reminds me of a joke concerning scientists trying to create a pen that can be used upside-down and in zero gravity. And someone without a science degree ask why they can't just use pencils...
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Old 2007-11-24, 21:12   Link #64
Skane
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
~ This just reminds me of a joke concerning scientists trying to create a pen that can be used upside-down and in zero gravity. And someone without a science degree ask why they can't just use pencils...
Not so much a joke than a real-life case study. Them being the Americans and the Russians respectively during the Space Race.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-11-24, 23:12   Link #65
Demongod86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Other than the fact that it takes 20 seconds of charging and condensing to create the beam shot?

It is obvious why the solid blades are preferable, anyway; it is reliable. Beam tech is still new, so CB doesn't want to depend on it alone.

This just reminds me of a joke concerning scientists trying to create a pen that can be used upside-down and in zero gravity. And someone without a science degree ask why they can't just use pencils...
Yes, on the international space station...the Russians used pencils

And I'm Russian.

WEWT.
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Old 2007-11-25, 10:20   Link #66
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Other than the fact that it takes 20 seconds of charging and condensing to create the beam shot?
And would that make the released shot more stable than a more focused energy blade with constant energy feed? If they can fire beams at such distances with such precision (even one millimeter divergence from the original firing vector could result in severe case of missing the intended spot in the situation we had displayed), it is hard to buy the excuse that atmospheric conditions somehow makes them unreliable. I am not saying the solid blades are not more reliable, i am saying the reason apparently presented for beam blades not being reliable doesn't make much sense. (Though since the explanation comes with a model kit, perhaps i am better of without relating this to anime, even though both are official)
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Old 2007-11-25, 15:14   Link #67
dahak
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
You do realize you're watching Gundam, right? Why is there melee in the later UC century, even though everyone and their mother has beam rifles?
Because if you get the beam saber inside the effect radius of an I field generator it works. A beam rifle cannot penetrate across the boundary of an I-field from outside.

Since Beam sabers are relatively low payload items they are worth carrying for that reason and for things like cutting doors in things. There is also the new type blocking of beamrifle fire with them as a possibility.
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Old 2007-11-25, 16:59   Link #68
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
I am not saying the solid blades are not more reliable, i am saying the reason apparently presented for beam blades not being reliable doesn't make much sense. (Though since the explanation comes with a model kit, perhaps i am better of without relating this to anime, even though both are official)
This seems to be especially true given that they could simply use the explanation for the effect that we actually saw in episode 7 - that GN blades can cut through objects that beam sabers can't. It's clunky explanations like this which makes me wish that they forgo trying to explain things at all.

By the way, do the names of the Gundams' weapons remind anyone else of set items in action RPGs? GN blade, GN rifle, GN pistol, GN shield: that gives a +15 bonus!
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Old 2007-11-26, 00:36   Link #69
Cherudim Arche
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In combat, why are the close combat weapons so big, the only thing I seen so far that are small are the daggers from Exia and dagger used by enact.

There is also the armor in close combat, how come the solid blade prove useless against a commander Tieren, while mean sabers could cut through it as butter in that situation.
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Old 2007-11-26, 00:39   Link #70
Traece
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The solid blade requires vibration to cut. I believe the Tieren had steadied the blade. Without vibrations it's just like striking a hatchet to a hammerhead. Not a big effect.
As for size... Well... Compensation?
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Old 2007-11-26, 00:50   Link #71
Cherudim Arche
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It could be longer instead of having so much mass or change the curve of the edge to increase the property of the blade. Exia would have a easier time wielding it big main blade used against all opponents.
All the time, the blades lack the range or ease off quick usage even the main one. I think that exia would need a change the deflection in its shield, it seems to flat in a way for a suit meant for close combat.

Dynames could do better just on drawing out ist pistols. In comparison to exia drawing out some of it blades to reset and get fire upon.
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Old 2007-11-26, 00:54   Link #72
Traece
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I don't think anyone here has really gone over how much better Setsuna could be with piloting the Exia. He certainly isn't the Neji Hyuuga of Gundams in 00. He could stand to be swifter and have more grace, as well as have quicker reactions.
As far as the design of the Exia... Well there are improvements that could be made, but things are as they are and like the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
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Old 2007-11-26, 01:20   Link #73
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynames/ Virtue View Post
There is also the armor in close combat, how come the solid blade prove useless against a commander Tieren, while mean sabers could cut through it as butter in that situation.
At the time, Exia didn't have its GN blades yet, so it only had a +3 bonus ! More seriously, it was a scene that made a whole lot more sense until we saw the GN blade in action in episode 7.

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Originally Posted by Dynames/ Virtue View Post
It could be longer instead of having so much mass or change the curve of the edge to increase the property of the blade.
Seemingly, the different lengths of blade correspond to different properties in terms of handiness, damage potential, and swings, but I don't think that this explanation is supposed to hold up to scrutiny. Like melee combat in general, viewers are just supposed to see a bunch of cool moves and not think too much about the practicality of it all.


By the way, I found it rather amusing to see the beam daggers used underwater. It was as if the creators saw what the model box writers said about beam sabers being ineffective in certain atmospheric conditions and got ticked off by it. Either that, or the two groups have to work on that communication thing.
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Old 2007-11-26, 01:44   Link #74
Cherudim Arche
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At least the GN drives work well seeing how Exia dealt with its underwater enemy.
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Old 2007-11-26, 19:59   Link #75
hobbes_fan
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Don't know if this has been mentioned.
THe GN particles mess up radar and everything like that right? Wouldn't it work both ways? If it didn't, all it would take is one dud missile and a decent engineering team to reverse engineer the missile guidance system and how it counteracts the GN particles. To date I don't recall any homing missiles used just bombs. Missiles, bombs and heavy artillery only work if there's someone to mop up afterwards, heavy reliance on carpet bombing and artillery never ever wins a war by itself. You have to get in there and get your hands bloody. Personally I do think they're using fairly standard military tactics most of the time, long range strikes followed by in melee fighting with air support.

Bear in mind though the Gundam as it stands is a PR machine in itself, particularly in this series so far. It's not being kept secret. In fact it seems that the CB's are using it like a statement "we'll do what ,we want when we want and there isn't a goddamn thing you lot can do about it" Personally I think the whole sword thing emphasises this eg I'm so awesome I don't need guns to kick your ass 7 ways from sunday.

(Note I'm only up to ep 7)
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Old 2007-11-26, 20:49   Link #76
Cherudim Arche
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That has already been mention, if even it hasn't been posted in this thread. For the pattern, it goes sweeps, virtue and kyrios to handle those duties. Kyrios handle air oppenents usually. Dynames and exia actually attack in a scatter assualt pattern, all to episodes to 8 so far. Individially they also op for guns, other than exia.
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Old 2007-11-27, 01:17   Link #77
Traece
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Ah. In reply to the bit about him using beam sabers underwater:
Beam weapons have always worked in Gundam, from Mobile Suit Gundam up to Gundam 00, every series. Every Principality of Zeon amphibious mobile suit(except for the Hygogg)uses beam weapons. In Gundam Seed they mention that the effectiveness of beam weapons of all kinds is reduced. Just offering that clarification for the many of you that have been a bit skeptical about this. As far as why... Eh... I'm sure there's a real reason.
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Old 2007-11-27, 01:35   Link #78
Cherudim Arche
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Treaece: You forgot about gundam wing with deathscythe and shelong
Gundam seed has phanon beams for underwater. Gundam 00, needs more time to find out how good beam technology is as well as the varaiation developed from it.
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Old 2007-11-27, 01:53   Link #79
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes_fan
THe GN particles mess up radar and everything like that right? Wouldn't it work both ways? If it didn't, all it would take is one dud missile and a decent engineering team to reverse engineer the missile guidance system and how it counteracts the GN particles.
They wouldn't have to bother, GN particles can't do anything to laser beams and not much against infrared, so all anyone would have to do is to build ladar- and heat-guided weapons. However, a look at all the blocs' arsenals don't reveal any guided weapons at all, so it may be a bit of a moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes_fan
Personally I do think they're using fairly standard military tactics most of the time, long range strikes followed by in melee fighting with air support.
I'm not sure if it'd be accurate to call this standard military tactics at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes_fan
Personally I think the whole sword thing emphasises this eg I'm so awesome I don't need guns to kick your ass 7 ways from sunday.
The number seven has special significance in Japanese mythology/culture, especially as it applies to blades. This probably dates back to the Seven-Branch Sword, one of Japan's national treasures.
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Old 2007-11-27, 03:00   Link #80
dreamless
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
And would that make the released shot more stable than a more focused energy blade with constant energy feed? If they can fire beams at such distances with such precision (even one millimeter divergence from the original firing vector could result in severe case of missing the intended spot in the situation we had displayed), it is hard to buy the excuse that atmospheric conditions somehow makes them unreliable. I am not saying the solid blades are not more reliable, i am saying the reason apparently presented for beam blades not being reliable doesn't make much sense. (Though since the explanation comes with a model kit, perhaps i am better of without relating this to anime, even though both are official)
well, Dynames also needs a giant reactor helping it to pump up enough power to reach such precision. you can't really compare the tiny handle of a beam sword to a giant reactor building up energy for 20 seconds. more power surely helps as it will be relatively less prone to outside influence. For example the water spray from a toy water gun will be easily affected by gravity and obstacles, while high-pressure water jet cutter can shoot through much longer distance and cut through bricks.
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