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Old 2007-11-17, 00:31   Link #41
Tommy
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I would honestly guess that Nightmare Luffy is 10x stronger then his normal self, which wouldn't make it surprising if he KO'ed those two. Also you have to remember that all the fights have been relatively short with the exception of OZ vs everyone.

It seems obvious to me that all the shadows that were leaving were from Luffy though and not Moria. Also I have a feeling that Moria isn't down for the count yet.

As Slayerx already mentioned Oz not getting his arm cut off is the only thing that really bugged me, I of course would like Moria to get up and fight some more but I won't be too heartbroken if it doesn't happen.

So will Moria get up or will Kuma appear again next chapter? Can't wait to see.
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Old 2007-11-17, 01:00   Link #42
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
I would honestly guess that Nightmare Luffy is 10x stronger then his normal self, which wouldn't make it surprising if he KO'ed those two.
To me it seems more like the shadows gave Luffy the ability of a mix of Gear 2 and Gear 3. And, if the number you gave is correct, it is really surprising (or maybe not) that Moria couldn't think of using Luffy's shadow himself, when the fight is about to end.

Another thing, if the shadows give additional powers, then would the loss of someone's own shadow mean loss of some strength? I think it was not mentioned that way.

Quote:
So will Moria get up or will Kuma appear again next chapter? Can't wait to see.
Water 7 arc finished with lots of revelations and questions. So, hopefully, at least we will get some answers and maybe a few more revelations.
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Old 2007-11-17, 01:28   Link #43
Slayerx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuzzles View Post
Moria: Where did Strawhat get this power?

how could he not know the possible uses of shadows inserted in human bodies?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
To me it seems more like the shadows gave Luffy the ability of a mix of Gear 2 and Gear 3. And, if the number you gave is correct, it is really surprising (or maybe not) that Moria couldn't think of using Luffy's shadow himself, when the fight is about to end.
Well the thing about that is, how does Moria guess that Luffy had the shadows? the shadows made Luffy huge, but other than that, Luffy doesn't show off any signs that he has 100 extra shadows in him. Should Moria conclude that Luffy has 100 shadows in him, or that Luffy has some other hidden power of his own. Really, Moria didn't know about those pirates living on thiller bark collecting shadows. For Moria to guess that Luffy was being powered up by 100 shadows he would have to be able to figure out how Luffy managed to figure out that shadow power, Purify 100 zombies, and all before dawn... it's quite the impossible task... all things considered, Moria would sooner guess Luffy had his own hidden power before he realized Luffy was using shadows

Perhaps Moria does know about the power to place shadows in a human body... thing is though, he normally only has access to a few shadows at any given time, and unless he grabs a shadow with a particular skill like swordsmanship, or a particualrly strong shadow, one or two shadows probably won't make much of a difference in a human's power. collecting shadows takes a lot of time for Moria especially if he's only grabbing stronger shadows and not peons, he spent the last 10 years making that army of his, and when the human is done using the power up which as a brief 10 minute use, all the shadows end up going back to their orginal owners... considering the power is probably only worthwhile with like 10 or more shadows, it's probably considered a waste of good shadows; afterall to use the ability he must sacrifice potnetial good minions...

As for Moria using Luffy's shadow, considering Luffy's shadow doesn't come with the ruber devil fruit, Moria was probably better off leaving the shadow with Oz and fighting like that, rather than disabling Oz and fighting himself; better he and Oz fight Luffy together then Moria try to fight alone... Luffy's shadow alone might not give a huge power up for Moria only a small one (compared to Luffy's); afterall Luffy was using 100 shadows not just a handful (possibly semi-strong ones too seeing as Moria seems to often only grab strong ones).

Not to mention, getting such a fast ass kicking is bound to ruin your ability to think in a given situation... frankly, Moria was beaten before he could even figure out how best to counter Luffy's offensive
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Old 2007-11-17, 01:55   Link #44
Phenomenal
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Moria combined his own strength with Odz's strength in the battle, especially in the second part, when he used his devil fruit ability to transform Odz's body. That, gomu gomu power is not Odz's own strength.

And, Odz is still a tool after all, that is created by another person and used by Moria. That is the same with Mihawk's sword. And, lastly, there is a meaning to having special swords in this world, it may not be required to illustrate the strength of someone, but it can be used to test his abilities at max - and Odz is just like that for Moria (like the huge sword Mihawk carries on his back).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
Moria uses his powers to make Oz stretch and in turn makes Oz more powerful... Yes Oz has his own strength, but when it comes down to it, the same could be about Mihawk's sword... it's descirbed as the strongest sword in the world. Mihawk adds his strnegth to the strength of his sword to allow the sword to use even greater strength... Mihawk's sword will be strong in anybody's hands, but Mihawk makes it even stronger. and them goes for Oz and Moria, Oz is strong on his own but Moria makes him stronger.

when you think about it Oz is kind of like a sword, only with a bit more free will and with more varied fighting ability.
Wow, So Moria made Odz stretch, WOW.
Again show me where Moria STEPPED IN PERSONALLY using HIS own strength and not augmenting another?

Where was it stated that Mihawk's sword can move and has power of it's own like Odz? Mihawk is the GREATEST SWORDSMAN IN THE WORLD not a manipulator like Moria. Please, don't compare.
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Old 2007-11-17, 02:15   Link #45
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Wow, So Moria made Odz stretch, WOW.
Don't underestimate the power of the streching... those stretch attacks make Oz far more theatening and adss even more power to his attacks.

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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Where was it stated that Mihawk's sword can move and has power of it's own like Odz? Mihawk is the GREATEST SWORDSMAN IN THE WORLD not a manipulator like Moria. Please, don't compare.
A sword may not be able to move on it's own but a sword does have power. Mihawk and Zoro have made that pretty damn clear. Mihawk's sword is consdered to be the strongest sword in the world. Zoro continues to great stronger and stronger swords, he even comments on swords having a bit of awill of their own, in how he points out that his cursed sword has a bit of bloodlust and is a bit of problem child... Zoro has also commented that he is having trouble controling Ryuma's sword.

Mihawk using just a nomarl every day sword is NOT as strong as Mihawk when he uses his black sword. and the same goes for Zoro and his three swords... he's stronger with them than with any common sword.

Also, calling Moria a manipulator would be rather wrong... Moria takes it furthar than that, he's more like a Puppet Master, and Oz is the Puppet. Moria has Oz's absolutle loyalty, anything Moria tells Oz to do, Oz WILL do it, and because Moria can control Oz's shadow with his own and that Oz's body is forced to move with the shadow, Moria can make that cotnrol more literal... guess you could think of Moria like Kankuro from Naruto who fights with puppets instead of swords.
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Old 2007-11-17, 02:24   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post

Not to mention, getting such a fast ass kicking is bound to ruin your ability to think in a given situation... frankly, Moria was beaten before he could even figure out how best to counter Luffy's offensive
I think this sums it up the best.

But you are right in that it is a huge waste of shadows, and the possibility of getting 100 shadows in that short time frame would be near impossible, which makes Morias reaction a bit more realistic. Even though, there is no way Moria would know the amount of shadows Luffy had, I'm sure he's done enough research with Hogback to know that it would require a large amount of shadows all the same.
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Old 2007-11-17, 02:46   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Don't underestimate the power of the streching... those stretch attacks make Oz far more theatening and adss even more power to his attacks.


A sword may not be able to move on it's own but a sword does have power. Mihawk and Zoro have made that pretty damn clear. Mihawk's sword is consdered to be the strongest sword in the world. Zoro continues to great stronger and stronger swords, he even comments on swords having a bit of awill of their own, in how he points out that his cursed sword has a bit of bloodlust and is a bit of problem child... Zoro has also commented that he is having trouble controling Ryuma's sword.

Mihawk using just a nomarl every day sword is NOT as strong as Mihawk when he uses his black sword. and the same goes for Zoro and his three swords... he's stronger with them than with any common sword.

Also, calling Moria a manipulator would be rather wrong... Moria takes it furthar than that, he's more like a Puppet Master, and Oz is the Puppet. Moria has Oz's absolutle loyalty, anything Moria tells Oz to do, Oz WILL do it, and because Moria can control Oz's shadow with his own and that Oz's body is forced to move with the shadow, Moria can make that cotnrol more literal... guess you could think of Moria like Kankuro from Naruto who fights with puppets instead of swords.
Again, Mihawk has the strongest sword because it is a "SUPREME GRADE sword."
The Swordsman makes the sword hence STRONGEST swordsMAN!
Moria USED ODZ strength he only added by making him stretch.
Like I said Moria has YET to fight and prove his Shichibukai status.
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Old 2007-11-17, 03:25   Link #48
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Again, Mihawk has the strongest sword because it is a "SUPREME GRADE sword."
The Swordsman makes the sword hence STRONGEST swordsMAN!
You seem to like dumbing down the SWORD and is SWORDSman
Tell me this... Is the Black Sword powerful, yes or no?
Is Mihawk stronger when he uses the sword, or is his strength the same?
which is stronger, Mihawk weilding the Black Sword, or Mihawk wielding a common everyday sword?

... one theme i think Zoro and Mihawk have going for them is that the relationship between Sword and Swordsman is symbyotic... the swordsman makes the sword, but the swordsman is only as strong as the sword he wields. Only a strong swordsman can release the greatest strength of the sword, and the overall strength of a swordsman is limited by his sword (the weaker the sword, the weaker the swordsman)

Quote:
Like I said Moria has YET to fight and prove his Shichibukai status.
how so?
As Oda has presented it, A Shichibukai is a dangerous and powerful pirate who works for the world government; that's it, nothing more
and the defination of what makes a character "dangerous and powerful" is ill defined and thus can be very broad.

According to YOU "Power" is defined as personal power... but your not Oda, so were gonna ignore that.

Power comes in many forms... one form of great power is being able to control powerful poeple, or to control many such as an army... who would you say is more powerful, the 5 elder stars who lead the world gov't, or Crocodile? obviously, you would say Croc, see he has snad powers and the elders are just 5 weak old man... well you couldn't be anymore wrong. The elders have full control of both CP9, the marines and limited control over the schikibukai (some can be unruly, but others like Kuma are rather loyal)... if Croc ever wanted to defeat the elders, he would first have to fight his way past CP9, the admrils, Sen goku, Garp, all the Vice captains, Kuma, and damn near anything else they control... Croc's sands powers got nothing on all that.

Another thing we can look at is the fact that "powerful" does not mean raw power... Look at doflamigo... He's got some kind of puppet control going, and so far hasn't show anything it terms of physical strength... he can MANIPULATE others into killing eachother, a person can not touch him without falling under his control... does that not make him powerful? or does he also need crazy super strength and speed to be considered powerful

Moria's shadow power IS the power to create powerful and loyal minons (in additon to the power to steal shadows, block and avoid attacks, and to attack poeple from long range)... with a few exceptions, everyone of Moria's minions exists and serve him thanks to HIS power. without his power, they would all be nothing more then rotting hunks of meat. he can then use that power of his to support his minions and make them even more powerful... the only way you get to touch Moria, is if you go through his powerful minions first, which as we've seen throughout this arc, is no simiple task for even Luffy (whose bounty was similar to Moria's) as he had trouble fighting against all those zombies.

Considering Moria has a entire zombie army working under him, zombies who have the strengths of legendary heros and villians, who can not die or feel pain and who are absolutly loyal to him, i think Moria has damn well proven that he is indeed, dangerous and powerful.

Last edited by Slayerx; 2007-11-17 at 06:39.
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Old 2007-11-17, 09:22   Link #49
ellifeedn
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I just want to make something clear: was Luffy's shadow released from Odz's body? If it wasn't, then Odz could still have some fight left in him.
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Old 2007-11-17, 12:02   Link #50
shankss
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I felt a bit shocked to spoilers but after reading I can say one of the best endings actually.At least somethings gonna happen now that theres one less shichibukai in list. Also cant wait to see "thunderstorm" animated, probly the same move like a "jet storm"

ps: Owned
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Old 2007-11-17, 12:52   Link #51
sanzo
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kick ass chapter. i heard a theory that since the island is sinking into the salt filled sea the zombies will be purified. i still think that maybe oz or moria might get back up again though but wounded enough that the remaining strawhats can beat him. its a damn shame though that nightmare luffy will never be used again. plus remember in earlier chapters when ussop nami and chopper spy on hogback and hogback said finally i have just finished creating my strongest zombie but it hasnt been used yet. maybe it will play a part later on
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Old 2007-11-17, 17:58   Link #52
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Well the thing about that is, how does Moria guess that Luffy had the shadows? the shadows made Luffy huge, but other than that, Luffy doesn't show off any signs that he has 100 extra shadows in him. Should Moria conclude that Luffy has 100 shadows in him, or that Luffy has some other hidden power of his own. Really, Moria didn't know about those pirates living on thiller bark collecting shadows. For Moria to guess that Luffy was being powered up by 100 shadows he would have to be able to figure out how Luffy managed to figure out that shadow power, Purify 100 zombies, and all before dawn... it's quite the impossible task... all things considered, Moria would sooner guess Luffy had his own hidden power before he realized Luffy was using shadows
I am not exactly referring to Moria knowing about Luffy carrying that many shadows. Those presumably low-class pirates were aware of Moria's weakness, and I guess, Moria, should also be aware of that. In that case, he should be aware of the fact that he can use shadows of the other people, even if it lasts for 10 minutes. He could have used Robin's shadow, he could have extracted Luffy's shadow from Odz and use it himself. He could have gained more power, something he obviously desires. But, he failed to do so.

Quote:
As for Moria using Luffy's shadow, considering Luffy's shadow doesn't come with the ruber devil fruit, Moria was probably better off leaving the shadow with Oz and fighting like that, rather than disabling Oz and fighting himself; better he and Oz fight Luffy together then Moria try to fight alone... Luffy's shadow alone might not give a huge power up for Moria only a small one (compared to Luffy's); afterall Luffy was using 100 shadows not just a handful (possibly semi-strong ones too seeing as Moria seems to often only grab strong ones).

Not to mention, getting such a fast ass kicking is bound to ruin your ability to think in a given situation... frankly, Moria was beaten before he could even figure out how best to counter Luffy's offensive
At that time, it was obvious that Odz was getting trashed by Luffy. If we assume that period lasted for 3 minutes, that was enough time to go ahead with that kind of plan.

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Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
I just want to make something clear: was Luffy's shadow released from Odz's body? If it wasn't, then Odz could still have some fight left in him.
We weren't shown that yet. After those attacks, he can die at any moment, so the shadow may return to Luffy as early as the beginning of next chapter.
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Old 2007-11-17, 23:34   Link #53
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moria got his ass kicked. period. look at his face. that state meant he's beaten hehhe
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Old 2007-11-18, 00:54   Link #54
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
You seem to like dumbing down the SWORD and is SWORDSman
Tell me this... Is the Black Sword powerful, yes or no?
Is Mihawk stronger when he uses the sword, or is his strength the same?
which is stronger, Mihawk weilding the Black Sword, or Mihawk wielding a common everyday sword?

... one theme i think Zoro and Mihawk have going for them is that the relationship between Sword and Swordsman is symbyotic... the swordsman makes the sword, but the swordsman is only as strong as the sword he wields. Only a strong swordsman can release the greatest strength of the sword, and the overall strength of a swordsman is limited by his sword (the weaker the sword, the weaker the swordsman)
The Swordsman makes the sword!
Mihawks sword isn't going to grant anyone with extra power like Odz did for Moria.

Quote:
how so?
As Oda has presented it, A Shichibukai is a dangerous and powerful pirate who works for the world government; that's it, nothing more
and the defination of what makes a character "dangerous and powerful" is ill defined and thus can be very broad.

According to YOU "Power" is defined as personal power... but your not Oda, so were gonna ignore that.

Power comes in many forms... one form of great power is being able to control powerful poeple, or to control many such as an army... who would you say is more powerful, the 5 elder stars who lead the world gov't, or Crocodile? obviously, you would say Croc, see he has snad powers and the elders are just 5 weak old man... well you couldn't be anymore wrong. The elders have full control of both CP9, the marines and limited control over the schikibukai (some can be unruly, but others like Kuma are rather loyal)... if Croc ever wanted to defeat the elders, he would first have to fight his way past CP9, the admrils, Sen goku, Garp, all the Vice captains, Kuma, and damn near anything else they control... Croc's sands powers got nothing on all that.

Another thing we can look at is the fact that "powerful" does not mean raw power... Look at doflamigo... He's got some kind of puppet control going, and so far hasn't show anything it terms of physical strength... he can MANIPULATE others into killing eachother, a person can not touch him without falling under his control... does that not make him powerful? or does he also need crazy super strength and speed to be considered powerful

Moria's shadow power IS the power to create powerful and loyal minons (in additon to the power to steal shadows, block and avoid attacks, and to attack poeple from long range)... with a few exceptions, everyone of Moria's minions exists and serve him thanks to HIS power. without his power, they would all be nothing more then rotting hunks of meat. he can then use that power of his to support his minions and make them even more powerful... the only way you get to touch Moria, is if you go through his powerful minions first, which as we've seen throughout this arc, is no simiple task for even Luffy (whose bounty was similar to Moria's) as he had trouble fighting against all those zombies.

Considering Moria has a entire zombie army working under him, zombies who have the strengths of legendary heros and villians, who can not die or feel pain and who are absolutly loyal to him, i think Moria has damn well proven that he is indeed, dangerous and powerful.
With your logic Shanks is just powerful because he controls incredibly powerful people?
Whitebeard is the strongest man in the world because he controls an entire fleet of powerful people?
No, there is a balance involved when we speak of power Moria has abilities of his own and he failed to use them. What your telling me is that Moria became a Shichibukai by controling zombies and sitting in Giants stomachs his whole pirate career?
Doflamingo is VERY powerful with his puppet like abilities, that's power!

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2007-11-18 at 01:19.
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Old 2007-11-18, 02:51   Link #55
shankss
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Doflamingo is VERY powerful with his puppet like abilities, that's power!
Which will try to stop Luffy's gomu gomu no bazooka but wont be able to stop body from strecthing..then gonna get pwned %100
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Old 2007-11-18, 03:06   Link #56
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
I am not exactly referring to Moria knowing about Luffy carrying that many shadows. Those presumably low-class pirates were aware of Moria's weakness, and I guess, Moria, should also be aware of that. In that case, he should be aware of the fact that he can use shadows of the other people, even if it lasts for 10 minutes. He could have used Robin's shadow, he could have extracted Luffy's shadow from Odz and use it himself. He could have gained more power, something he obviously desires. But, he failed to do so.

At that time, it was obvious that Odz was getting trashed by Luffy. If we assume that period lasted for 3 minutes, that was enough time to go ahead with that kind of plan.
Well what you have to ask is how much power Moria would gain from Luffy's and/or Robin's shadow. Robin for one is not very strong without her devil fruit, and since devil fruit power doesn't transfer with the shadow her shadow would probably be pretty weak... something similar could be said about Luffy in that he is would be considered weaker without his devil fruit than With. There are two factors in determining how strong a zombie is, the strength of the body and the strength of the shadow; however, how much strength that shadow contributes is unclear... i mean, if Oz for instance had some random peon's shadow instead of Luffy's, how much of a difference would that have made in his strength (putting aside Moria giving Oz stretching ability)

Thing is, Luffy was using 100 shadows to get that massive boost in strength, not just one or two. I seriously doubt that Luffy and Robin's shadows alone would even come close to matching the power of nightmare Luffy. i would wager to guess that Moria was probably better off having Oz by his side then he was using Luffy's shadow himself... Sure Oz was getting his ass kicked, but even with Luffy's shadow, Moria would get kicked around even harder than Oz was... More than Likely, Moria + Oz > Moria with Luffy's shadow and no Oz

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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
The Swordsman makes the sword!
Mihawks sword isn't going to grant anyone with extra power like Odz did for Moria.
By your logic, Mihawk is just as strong fighting barehanded, or fighting with that tiny knife he used against Zoro as he is fighting with his Black Sword... Guess Zoro had no reason to feel insulted or embarassed that Mihawk was beating him with a knife... hell why should Mihawk or Zoro even bother having these legedary swords if they apparently don't make a difference in combat? Zoro should just screw looking for such swords and just stick with only what he can find lying around...

I'll ask again since you dodged the questions.
Is the Black Sword powerful, yes or no?
Is Mihawk stronger when he uses the sword, or is his strength the same?
which is stronger, Mihawk weilding the Black Sword, or Mihawk wielding a common everyday sword?
Who is stronger, a swordsman using a normal sword, or a swordsman using the black sword.

Quote:
With your logic Shanks is just powerful because he controls incredibly powerful people?
Whitebeard is the strongest man in the world because he controls an entire fleet of powerful people?
No, there is a balance involved when we speak of power Moria has abilities of his own and he failed to use them. What your telling me is that Moria became a Shichibukai by controling zombies and sitting in Giants stomachs his whole pirate career?
Um... no... that's not at all what my logic says...
i said that power comes in MANY forms, and that the power to manipulate and contol powerful poeple was ONE type of power. Personal Power like found in whitebeard, shanks, Mihawk, and blackbeard is ANOTHER type of power in one piece.
Shanks and Whitebeard are ALSO strong because of the crews that have, in ADDITION to their own massive personal power.

But in one piece, because power can be defined in more than just one way, one does not need both personal power and a powerful crew to be considered powerful overall... one of the other will do just fine. seriously tell me, are the 5 elder stars, the old men who control the mairines, CP, and the shichibukai powerful, yes or no?
Who would you be more scared to fight, Crocodile and his sand powers or the 5 old men who can send AoKiji, Kuma, Garp, and Lucchi to kill you?
the 5 elder stars can be considered incredibly power by virtue of the men that they control.

So ya, i am pretty much am saying that Moria gained his status mostly through his control of zombies in addition to the devil fruit power he showed (instant KO by shadow stealing [a power that doesn't work on luffy since he already lost his shadow], ability to avoid damage, and manipulate poeple using his shadow), and NOT for for being very powerful in an one-on-one fight... having such absolute control over many powerful poeple, having control over a whole army and showing some personal power is a perfectly legitimate reason to gain shichibukai status

Hell, in a sence, Moria actully came as close if not closer to beating the strawhats than Croc did... Croc may have "killed" Luffy twice but he never did anything to the rest of the crew. Moria on the other hand, managed to KO Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro eariler on and could have killed all three if he really wanted to... If Moria had killed the 3 of them when he had the chance, he probably would have finsihed off the rest of the strawhats and won

So ya, one does NOT need to have the ability to fight extremely well in a one-on-one fight to become a shichibukai; that is Oda talking... to say that Moria needs to be able to fight on like Mihawk, or Croc is only YOU talking
Quote:
Doflamingo is VERY powerful with his puppet like abilities, that's power!
oh i see, when Doflamingo manipulate's poeple with puppet ability it's considered great personal power, but when Moria manipulates poeple with shadow power, it's not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankss
Which will try to stop Luffy's gomu gomu no bazooka but wont be able to stop body from strecthing..then gonna get pwned %100
Careful now... Doflamingo may be destined to get an ass kicking (just like all shonen villians), but he's gonna do some damage before that happens. With his talk of wanting to start a new Era, an Era that conflicts with the era that Luffy is creating (as shanks believes), Doflamingo's arc is probably gonna be a hell of an arc for the strawhats.
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Old 2007-11-18, 10:58   Link #57
shankss
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Careful now... Doflamingo may be destined to get an ass kicking (just like all shonen villians), but he's gonna do some damage before that happens. With his talk of wanting to start a new Era, an Era that conflicts with the era that Luffy is creating (as shanks believes), Doflamingo's arc is probably gonna be a hell of an arc for the strawhats.
yep He is involved with main story but I see no other way of Luffy defeating him.Its too early to say but Luffy looks like the nest rival for donflamingo since he wont be able to stop strecthing punches, or maybe if some other power up pops out or someone else takes care of him
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Old 2007-11-19, 17:25   Link #58
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By your logic, Mihawk is just as strong fighting barehanded, or fighting with that tiny knife he used against Zoro as he is fighting with his Black Sword... Guess Zoro had no reason to feel insulted or embarassed that Mihawk was beating him with a knife... hell why should Mihawk or Zoro even bother having these legedary swords if they apparently don't make a difference in combat? Zoro should just screw looking for such swords and just stick with only what he can find lying around...

I'll ask again since you dodged the questions.
Is the Black Sword powerful, yes or no?
Is Mihawk stronger when he uses the sword, or is his strength the same?
which is stronger, Mihawk weilding the Black Sword, or Mihawk wielding a common everyday sword?
Who is stronger, a swordsman using a normal sword, or a swordsman using the black sword.
The Blacksword is powerful because of it's GRADE/STATUS. Not because it grants the user power. Shanks has a top-class sword because of it's grade it doesn't grant the user power.

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Um... no... that's not at all what my logic says...
i said that power comes in MANY forms, and that the power to manipulate and contol powerful poeple was ONE type of power. Personal Power like found in whitebeard, shanks, Mihawk, and blackbeard is ANOTHER type of power in one piece.
Shanks and Whitebeard are ALSO strong because of the crews that have, in ADDITION to their own massive personal power.

But in one piece, because power can be defined in more than just one way, one does not need both personal power and a powerful crew to be considered powerful overall... one of the other will do just fine. seriously tell me, are the 5 elder stars, the old men who control the mairines, CP, and the shichibukai powerful, yes or no?
Who would you be more scared to fight, Crocodile and his sand powers or the 5 old men who can send AoKiji, Kuma, Garp, and Lucchi to kill you?
the 5 elder stars can be considered incredibly power by virtue of the men that they control.

So ya, i am pretty much am saying that Moria gained his status mostly through his control of zombies in addition to the devil fruit power he showed (instant KO by shadow stealing [a power that doesn't work on luffy since he already lost his shadow], ability to avoid damage, and manipulate poeple using his shadow), and NOT for for being very powerful in an one-on-one fight... having such absolute control over many powerful poeple, having control over a whole army and showing some personal power is a perfectly legitimate reason to gain shichibukai status

Hell, in a sence, Moria actully came as close if not closer to beating the strawhats than Croc did... Croc may have "killed" Luffy twice but he never did anything to the rest of the crew. Moria on the other hand, managed to KO Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro eariler on and could have killed all three if he really wanted to... If Moria had killed the 3 of them when he had the chance, he probably would have finsihed off the rest of the strawhats and won

So ya, one does NOT need to have the ability to fight extremely well in a one-on-one fight to become a shichibukai; that is Oda talking... to say that Moria needs to be able to fight on like Mihawk, or Croc is only YOU talking
Actually not! IT IS ODA TALKING!
ODA GAVE Moria the 320 Million bounty not Odz or Thriller Bark!
Moria didn't even have Odz!
Your telling me Moria has a bounty that high for only controlling minions?
Whitebeard and Shanks control powerful minions too.
Moria HIMSELF has the high bounty and a powerful devil fruit, he has combat-powers of his own.

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oh i see, when Doflamingo manipulate's poeple with puppet ability it's considered great personal power, but when Moria manipulates poeple with shadow power, it's not...
Yep.
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Old 2007-11-20, 03:13   Link #59
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
The Blacksword is powerful because of it's GRADE/STATUS. Not because it grants the user power. Shanks has a top-class sword because of it's grade it doesn't grant the user power.
Just answer a simple question... since you keep dodging
which is stronger, Mihawk with the black sword or Mihawk common sword?
according to your logic, the two would have the same exact strength and their fight against eachother would end in a draw

Its plainly obvious that Black sword Mihawk would defeat common sword Mihawk... when the two clash, Black sword Mihawk would cut through the common sword like a it was nothing, and not a single dent would be left in the black sword. Common Sword Mihawk would be fighting with a serious handicap using a common sword against the black sword

Swords have strength that is derived from the material they are made of, how dense and tough the blade is, and how sharp and well made the sword is... and in shonen anime, the quality of the sword makes a huge difference.

Quote:
Actually not! IT IS ODA TALKING!
ODA GAVE Moria the 320 Million bounty not Odz or Thriller Bark!
Moria didn't even have Odz!
Your telling me Moria has a bounty that high for only controlling minions?
Whitebeard and Shanks control powerful minions too.
Moria HIMSELF has the high bounty and a powerful devil fruit, he has combat-powers of his own.
.
and as i plainly explained one can be a serious threat without even having a ounce of personal power... by controlling powerful poeple, by controling army's a character can gain a huge bounty for himself. The 5 elder stars for instance would have a massive bounty on them, probably higher than that of Whitebeard or Dragon seeing as, even though they couldn't fight for themselves, they control a massive army and numerous powerful poeple like Ao kiji, Kuma, Garp and so forth.

When speaking of Moria's personal power, i would say that the tactic he used on Robin could make the bulk of his bounty that goes towards his personal power (as opposed to his ability to contol an army of undying minions)... i mean, popping up from behind an opponent and delivering a near-instant KO is indeed a very meanacing ability; instant Death if they are out in the sun. Not sure if Moria would need much other moves if he can do something like that. I'm sure anybody who wasn't overrun by zombies fell to that move. Too bad ofcourse that such a tactic is useless against those without shadows, hence why he would not fight Luffy without the ability to give an instant KO... Hell, one of the smartest things Moria could have done was give Luffy back his shadow just so he could use that move against him

you keep saying that Moria has not proven that he should have such a high bounty, and i say he has already shown that. Controlling an army of strong undying minions, having a move that can deliver and instant KO, as well as being hard to hurt in a fight seems like it's enough to prove a huge bounty... just because he didn't get the chance to fight Luffy one-on-one, and just because he didn't stand a chance against nightmare Luffy (who was MANY times stronger than normal Luffy and thus much higher then 300 million bounty), doesn't change a thing

Last edited by Slayerx; 2007-11-20 at 03:44.
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Old 2007-11-20, 12:49   Link #60
cheese4u
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I pretty much agree with everything else you said but I'm not to sure about...

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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post


The 5 elder stars for instance would have a massive bounty on them, probably higher than that of Whitebeard or Dragon seeing as, even though they couldn't fight for themselves, they control a massive army and numerous powerful poeple like Ao kiji, Kuma, Garp and so forth.

When speaking of Moria's personal power, i would say that the tactic he used on Robin could make the bulk of his bounty that goes towards his personal power (as opposed to his ability to contol an army of undying minions)...
Just because we've never seen the five elder stars fight doesn't mean they can't. They may very well be former pirates, naval men, or bounty hunters for all we know. And I say this because amongst them I saw a swordsman and couple of guys that looked like they were real bruisers.

Also, though I can't say much for Moria's toughness, seeing as how he's a giant he's probably born with a lot of natural strength, add a DF power to that and I'd say you'd have a pretty formidable opponent even without Oz..err Odz (whatever).
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