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Old 2007-11-20, 12:52   Link #61
Goshin
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Question

like slayerX keep explaining. bounty doesn't measure strenght or power. but potential threat to the world government. why did robin have such a high bounty as a little girl? because here knowledge posed a great threat to the existence of the world government. imo a pirate's bounty is proportional to their chances of finding one piece (rio polygraph ) or how close they are to do so.

so if people don't know how bout moria's abilities, he can take out any important person in the world government with ease. he poses a threat to world government because of his power to do instant kill.
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Old 2007-11-20, 13:10   Link #62
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by cheese4u View Post
Just because we've never seen the five elder stars fight doesn't mean they can't. They may very well be former pirates, naval men, or bounty hunters for all we know. And I say this because amongst them I saw a swordsman and couple of guys that looked like they were real bruisers.
True, it is kind of a quick assumtion, but it wouldn't be completly wrong to assume that they can't fight... afterall, we have poeple like spandem who lead CP9 and that doesn't have much strength himself at all
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Also, though I can't say much for Moria's toughness, seeing as how he's a giant he's probably born with a lot of natural strength, add a DF power to that and I'd say you'd have a pretty formidable opponent even without Oz..err Odz (whatever).
Looks can be decieving... afterall, we had Ms.Monday a long time back and Franky Family had members who were the same size as Oz... but when all was said and done, they easily got beaten down hard by people smaller than them. His size may give him a natural advantage against someone of normal size and strength but not nessasarily someone who is actually powerful... Hell, any strength he appears he might have due to his size is actually contradicted by his body shape; he is shaped like a bowling pin, with tiny legs, and rubber-hose arms, all of which don't exactly scream strong and/or fast... though ofcourse, again looks can be deciving... but still, would be very wrong to assume that Moria as much nartual physical strength based on his size.

Frankly, when it comes to Oz, adding Oz's strength to his own would bring him far above to where he normally stood without him... i mean, when everything is said and done, he did defeat the strawhats (excluding Luffy), a crew whose bounty would have totalled up to 300 Million and still had plenty left in him to continue to fighting... more then likely, having Oz on his side would have seriously raised his bounty to far above that of 320 million

unlike what phenomonal wants to push, Moria has indeed proven he is worthy of being a shichibukai despite never fighting Luffy in an even fight... it's all thanks to the zombies that he created with HIS power that he managed to capture and KO Luffy, Zoro and Sanji, a feat that is not easy and probably only equaled by Croc (a Shichibukai) nearly killing Luffy twice (seeing as Moria could have killed all 3 of them if he really wanted to)... Moria's proven that through personal power and powerful minions that he has earned his place amognst the shichibukai (and it's therefore, not bad writing)... It's not Moria's fault that nightmare Luffy was above and beyond what he could hope to fight; nightmare Luffy would probably have a bounty like twice that of Moria's.
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Old 2007-11-20, 15:57   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
bounty doesn't measure strenght or power. but potential threat to the world government.
You are contradicting with yourself, mainly because of using an exception to refer to the general.

Potential threat, for most of the characters, is directly related to their strength and what they achieved with that strength. Robin is an exception to that. If government would have known about Franky earlier they would have used a similar method for him too. Another possible exception in other words. Another exception is the shichibukai. In their case, the bounty is expected to be lower than what they deserve, mainly because the strength they can gain over time is not counted towards measuring their actual bounty. Though, even among those, exceptions are possible, if for instance the shichibukai achieved his maximum threat level before becoming a shichibukai. Maybe, Moria is someone like that.

But, anyways, pirates usually have a natural tendency to display their strength, which also display the threat level they possess, and, unless the observation fails regarding them (like what happened with chopper), the amount they are given can usually be considered as a fair measure for them. Even among those can there be an exception? Maybe yes, maybe no. If Robin's threat-based bounty would have counted towards other members' bounties, Chopper would have gotten a higher bounty.
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Old 2007-11-20, 16:48   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
You are contradicting with yourself, mainly because of using an exception to refer to the general.
but the general only descirbes what is commonly seen, not the rule.
The rule of bounties is that they reflect the threat level to the gov't... HOW a person is a threat can vary; having a great personal power is only the most common reason. However, stuff like having information that can harm the gov't or leading powerful minions or armies are other factors...

Dragon for instance, probably has a great amount of personal power, but the thing that makes him the most wanted man in the world is probably due to the armies of revolutionaries that he leads... hence how Dragon can be the most wanted man in the world, but Whitebeard still hold the title as the strongest man in the world

In the case of CP9, if Spandem had the loyalty of the other CP9 members, as in they followed him because they wanted to and not because they got higher orders telling them to, as pirates Spandem would have a higher bounty than Rob Lucchi... in regards to CP9, the only thing stronger than Luuchi is Luuchi+the rest of CP9... if you mess with Spandem you will be messing with ALL of CP9 aswell; which is a lot harder then just messing with Luuchi alone.

even Luffy is not an exception to this... Luffy's got a bounty of 300 million, a 200 million increase from before. Considering Crocodile only gave Luffy a 70 million boost, i doubt that defeating Luuchi alone would be enough to warrent a 200 million increase... no, part of that 200 million probably comes from the fact that he leads a powerful crew whose total bounty is about 300 million (not including himself), a crew who together with Luffy is credited for destorying enies lobby a feat never before done... another factor would probably be the burning of the world gov't flag, since that's a open challenge agianst the world gov't, pratcially a declaration of what luffy intends to do to the world gov't...

So can bounties be used as measure for pirate personal strength? yes... but should we be surprised if a pirates personal strength is actually lower then what we expect from their bounty? absolutly not as their are numerous factors that go into determining a bounty
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Old 2007-11-20, 17:45   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Just answer a simple question... since you keep dodging
which is stronger, Mihawk with the black sword or Mihawk common sword?
according to your logic, the two would have the same exact strength and their fight against eachother would end in a draw

Its plainly obvious that Black sword Mihawk would defeat common sword Mihawk... when the two clash, Black sword Mihawk would cut through the common sword like a it was nothing, and not a single dent would be left in the black sword. Common Sword Mihawk would be fighting with a serious handicap using a common sword against the black sword

Swords have strength that is derived from the material they are made of, how dense and tough the blade is, and how sharp and well made the sword is... and in shonen anime, the quality of the sword makes a huge difference.
Mihawk could use ANY sword and still be the greatest.


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and as i plainly explained one can be a serious threat without even having a ounce of personal power... by controlling powerful poeple, by controling army's a character can gain a huge bounty for himself. The 5 elder stars for instance would have a massive bounty on them, probably higher than that of Whitebeard or Dragon seeing as, even though they couldn't fight for themselves, they control a massive army and numerous powerful poeple like Ao kiji, Kuma, Garp and so forth.

When speaking of Moria's personal power, i would say that the tactic he used on Robin could make the bulk of his bounty that goes towards his personal power (as opposed to his ability to contol an army of undying minions)... i mean, popping up from behind an opponent and delivering a near-instant KO is indeed a very meanacing ability; instant Death if they are out in the sun. Not sure if Moria would need much other moves if he can do something like that. I'm sure anybody who wasn't overrun by zombies fell to that move. Too bad ofcourse that such a tactic is useless against those without shadows, hence why he would not fight Luffy without the ability to give an instant KO... Hell, one of the smartest things Moria could have done was give Luffy back his shadow just so he could use that move against him

you keep saying that Moria has not proven that he should have such a high bounty, and i say he has already shown that. Controlling an army of strong undying minions, having a move that can deliver and instant KO, as well as being hard to hurt in a fight seems like it's enough to prove a huge bounty... just because he didn't get the chance to fight Luffy one-on-one, and just because he didn't stand a chance against nightmare Luffy (who was MANY times stronger than normal Luffy and thus much higher then 300 million bounty), doesn't change a thing
Again no, Moria has not shown why he has the bounty or the Shichibukai status. Did The fat fool SIT in Odz his whole career to get that bounty?
Moria lost to Kaidoh in the New World...HE DIDN'T HAVE ODZ!!!
Moria did not showcase any skills of his own.
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Old 2007-11-20, 18:01   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Dragon for instance, probably has a great amount of personal power, but the thing that makes him the most wanted man in the world is probably due to the armies of revolutionaries that he leads... hence how Dragon can be the most wanted man in the world, but Whitebeard still hold the title as the strongest man in the world
Again, another possible exception. I am saying possible because who knows what the real strength of Dragon is, having a father like that, and sons like that, is there are a reason to not believe he is maybe stronger than even Whitebeard or Shanks, or the others. Without having that strength, Dragon wouldn't have achieved what he had achieved, he wouldn't have possibly avoided the strongest Government officials, especially since he is the most wanted...

And, about being most wanted. Is the bounty an exact measure of that? I think it is quite logical to think that Robin's actual threat level combined with strength of her crew should be much higher than what the bounty amount suggests. If Dragon is the most wanted, with her threat level, she might be the second most wanted. But her bounty is not a measure of that.

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even Luffy is not an exception to this... Luffy's got a bounty of 300 million, a 200 million increase from before. Considering Crocodile only gave Luffy a 70 million boost, i doubt that defeating Luuchi alone would be enough to warrent a 200 million increase... no, part of that 200 million probably comes from the fact that he leads a powerful crew whose total bounty is about 300 million (not including himself), a crew who together with Luffy is credited for destorying enies lobby a feat never before done... another factor would probably be the burning of the world gov't flag, since that's a open challenge agianst the world gov't, pratcially a declaration of what luffy intends to do to the world gov't...
We don't know about Crocodile. Isn't it said that Crocodile updated bounty level would be higher than what he had before he became a Shichibukai? So, if he had a bounty of 160 million instead of 80 million (I hope I remember correctly), then Luffy didn't get what he deserved. Maybe, the government assumed he got help from others hence lowered what Luffy would have gotten actually. And, that is opposite of what you are referring to. That might suggest, Luffy got a bounty that considers his achievements as the result of team-work, instead of evaluating him as he is, like solely the result of his battle against Lucci.

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So can bounties be used as measure for pirate personal strength? yes... but should we be surprised if a pirates personal strength is actually lower then what we expect from their bounty? absolutly not as their are numerous factors that go into determining a bounty
You can also argue that the bounty may actually be lower than what the person would have gotten if his/her strength is considered alone. So, it is a multi-dimensional equation. But, I believe, strength is still at the core of that.

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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Mihawk could use ANY sword and still be the greatest.
Not against another possible greatest. Do you really think, if, in the old time, Shanks would have used the strongest sword against Mihawk, Mihawk would have won against him using a tiny sword instead of another great sword. If that would be the case, Zoro wouldn't have searched for better swords. Cause, I am sure you are aware, only the strongest swords can accept the capacity of the greatest swordsman. The other ones are bound to break if those swordsman would decide to use them to display their greatest skills, the skills that make them the greatest...
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Old 2007-11-20, 18:38   Link #67
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Mihawk could use ANY sword and still be the greatest.
Why do you keep dodging the question...
Which is stronger, Mihawk with his Black sword or Mihawk with a common sword?
the question compares Mihawk against himself, and no other...
It's a therotical battle of Mihawk VS Mihawk; one with the black sword, and the other with a common sword... which will win

Quote:
Again no, Moria has not shown why he has the bounty or the Shichibukai status.
Moria did not showcase any skills of his own.
Let's see...
-Ability to deliver an instant KO to someone worth ATLEAST 80 million bounty; very high possibility he can do it to someone of much higher bounty aswell
-Able to create undying zombies that are far tougher then they were when they were alive
-Having the absolute loyalty of said zombies
-A technic that allows him block attacks with him needing to lift a finger
-Ability to dodge attacks by switching places with his shadow
-using the zombies that he created with his power, and using his instant KO move, he managed to KO Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji without much effort (480 million bounty), and was in perfect position to kill all three of them; a feat only comparable to Crocodile

heh... didn't even bring up Oz in that explanation...
ya... i guess all of that isn't worth 320 million... especially that part about KO'ing 3 poeple worth 480 million... not at all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
And, about being most wanted. Is the bounty an exact measure of that? I think it is quite logical to think that Robin's actual threat level combined with strength of her crew should be much higher than what the bounty amount suggests. If Dragon is the most wanted, with her threat level, she might be the second most wanted. But her bounty is not a measure of that.
Error in your analogy... Robin is part of the strawhat crew but she is not their leader she does not decide the actions for the rest of the crew and as such the crew would not factor into her bounty; can't compare a leader with a subordinate... Pirates captains gain extra boost to thir bounty not because they have strong friends, but because they LEAD those strong friends. The captain decides the actions of the crew... their power is practially an extention of his.

Y'know you keep calling these possible exceptions, however i see them as part of the rule... they are not as common as getting a bounty based on personal strength, but they are still part of the rule which is "level of threat"

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We don't know about Crocodile. Isn't it said that Crocodile updated bounty level would be higher than what he had before he became a Shichibukai? So, if he had a bounty of 160 million instead of 80 million (I hope I remember correctly), then Luffy didn't get what he deserved.
Yes Oda did say that it would be about 160 million... however that is a theotical bounty based on if Crocdile was still wanted by the gov't, not something the World gov't was keep track of. the moment the world gov't made him a shichibukai they for the most part stopped tracking his growth in power as he was no longer considered a threat to them. no matter how strong he became, the wrold gov't would always consider him an 80 million bounty... it's only after he took some kind of action, that reaffirmed he was a threat that they would not only reinstate his bounty but increase it based on whatever action he caused.
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Old 2007-11-20, 19:31   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Error in your analogy... Robin is part of the strawhat crew but she is not their leader she does not decide the actions for the rest of the crew and as such the crew would not factor into her bounty; can't compare a leader with a subordinate... Pirates captains gain extra boost to thir bounty not because they have strong friends, but because they LEAD those strong friends. The captain decides the actions of the crew... their power is practially an extention of his.
I think being a leader is not the main issue here. Robin is surrounded by a crew, who has a total bounty of more than 500m "without" her. And, that is another one of her strengths. That crew is behind her and can use her skills in finding and building the weapons written in poneglyphs. And, if you consider that, which one is a bigger threat, Robin without a crew who will risk everything for her, or with a crew like that. Do you think an increase of a few million beri in bounty reflect that? For me, that is not the case.

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Y'know you keep calling these possible exceptions, however i see them as part of the rule... they are not as common as getting a bounty based on personal strength, but they are still part of the rule which is "level of threat"
They are exceptions created within the story. Robin seems to be currently the only one who can read poneglyphs. Dragon seems to be the only one who creates a path or leads the path for revolution. They are out of the main pirate-marine equation. According to what you are saying, if Luffy gets a few more members, his bounty will automatically increase. That is not the case. His bounty increases based on what he achieves, which is mostly a measure of his strength. If you remember from the Arabasta arc, Luffy and Zoro are the only ones who got a bounty - and the main point of discussion about them (regarding bounties) is who they beat.

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no matter how strong he became, the wrold gov't would always consider him an 80 million bounty... it's only after he took some kind of action, that reaffirmed he was a threat that they would not only reinstate his bounty but increase it based on whatever action he caused.
I gave that example to provide a sufficient excuse for the increase in Luffy's bounty compared to Crocodile's. That is one of the possibilities on why Luffy get 100 million as opposed to Crocodile's 80 million.
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Old 2007-11-20, 21:23   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Not against another possible greatest. Do you really think, if, in the old time, Shanks would have used the strongest sword against Mihawk, Mihawk would have won against him using a tiny sword instead of another great sword. If that would be the case, Zoro wouldn't have searched for better swords. Cause, I am sure you are aware, only the strongest swords can accept the capacity of the greatest swordsman. The other ones are bound to break if those swordsman would decide to use them to display their greatest skills, the skills that make them the greatest...

Mihawks sword is greater than Shanks sword, yet Shanks skills were equal to Mihawk.
It is all about the WEILDER of the blade.

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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Why do you keep dodging the question...
Which is stronger, Mihawk with his Black sword or Mihawk with a common sword?
the question compares Mihawk against himself, and no other...
It's a therotical battle of Mihawk VS Mihawk; one with the black sword, and the other with a common sword... which will win
Tie.

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Let's see...
-Ability to deliver an instant KO to someone worth ATLEAST 80 million bounty; very high possibility he can do it to someone of much higher bounty aswell-Able to create undying zombies that are far tougher then they were when they were alive
-Having the absolute loyalty of said zombies
-A technic that allows him block attacks with him needing to lift a finger
-Ability to dodge attacks by switching places with his shadow
-using the zombies that he created with his power, and using his instant KO move, he managed to KO Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji without much effort (480 million bounty), and was in perfect position to kill all three of them; a feat only comparable to Crocodile

heh... didn't even bring up Oz in that explanation...
ya... i guess all of that isn't worth 320 million... especially that part about KO'ing 3 poeple worth 480 million... not at all

Yep your right, none of that is worth 320 million because Moria got his *** dropped easily in a few panels.
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Old 2007-11-20, 22:12   Link #70
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Mihawks sword is greater than Shanks sword, yet Shanks skills were equal to Mihawk.
It is all about the WEILDER of the blade.

Tie.
oh i see, so Mihawk with the Blacksword would always tie against himself no matter what the other Mihawk was using... the other Mihawk could be using a rusted piece of junk that was on the verge of breaking and still tie with Black Sword Mihawk... some mihgt think Black Sword Mihawk would shatter the rusted blade... Black Sword Mihawk should probably feel ashamed that he can't even break a rusted sword

I guess there is absolutly no point in the fact that Zoro's sword is cursed, that there is nothing special about Ryuma's sword, that Mihawk's black sword holds the title of "strongest sword" for no good reason, that there is no point to Zoro looking for really rare swords seeing as ANY sword will do just fine... Zoro should have just done his shopping in a junk yard since there is no difference between a hunk of junk and the most brilliant and well made sword in the world... Hey i wonder why Zoro went to thiller bark with only two swords, seeing as sword quality doesn't make a difference he should have just grabbed a piece of junk and used that... And i guess that is also no point in all those times Zoro had talked about his swords and thinking about how strong they are, like how he complimented on the power of Ryuma's sword after he gave it a test drive...

Really now...

Quote:
Yep your right, none of that is worth 320 million because Moria got his *** dropped easily in a few panels.
Moria got beat in a few panels by NIGHTMARE Luffy
Moria vs normal Luffy might have been a decent fight they are in the same leauge, however nightmare Luffy was MANY times more powerful than normal Luffy, that shadow power up brought Luffy into a whole different leauge than Moria... consider the kind of damage that the strawhats did on Oz, particularly Zoro who is the clostest to Luffy in strength... based on that, normal Luffy could not kick Oz's ass nearly as much as nightmare Luffy.

Moria got his beat easily in a few panels because his opponent who was already on argueably equal terms with him can an insane power up that brought him well beyond his level... you might have a point if he had lost to normal Luffy, but not nightmare Luffy.

what part of that do you not understand
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Old 2007-11-20, 22:39   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
oh i see, so Mihawk with the Blacksword would always tie against himself no matter what the other Mihawk was using... the other Mihawk could be using a rusted piece of junk that was on the verge of breaking and still tie with Black Sword Mihawk... some mihgt think Black Sword Mihawk would shatter the rusted blade... Black Sword Mihawk should probably feel ashamed that he can't even break a rusted sword

I guess there is absolutly no point in the fact that Zoro's sword is cursed, that there is nothing special about Ryuma's sword, that Mihawk's black sword holds the title of "strongest sword" for no good reason, that there is no point to Zoro looking for really rare swords seeing as ANY sword will do just fine... Zoro should have just done his shopping in a junk yard since there is no difference between a hunk of junk and the most brilliant and well made sword in the world... Hey i wonder why Zoro went to thiller bark with only two swords, seeing as sword quality doesn't make a difference he should have just grabbed a piece of junk and used that... And i guess that is also no point in all those times Zoro had talked about his swords and thinking about how strong they are, like how he complimented on the power of Ryuma's sword after he gave it a test drive...

Really now...
Zoro beat Ryumma, Zoro's swords were lower than Ryumma's Autumn Water. Like I said the Sword is not the same as Moria using Odz.

Quote:
Moria got beat in a few panels by NIGHTMARE Luffy
Moria vs normal Luffy might have been a decent fight they are in the same leauge, however nightmare Luffy was MANY times more powerful than normal Luffy, that shadow power up brought Luffy into a whole different leauge than Moria... consider the kind of damage that the strawhats did on Oz, particularly Zoro who is the clostest to Luffy in strength... based on that, normal Luffy could not kick Oz's ass nearly as much as nightmare Luffy.

Moria got his beat easily in a few panels because his opponent who was already on argueably equal terms with him can an insane power up that brought him well beyond his level... you might have a point if he had lost to normal Luffy, but not nightmare Luffy.

what part of that do you not understand
Moria IS A SHICHIBUKAI, I don't give a damn if Nightmare Luffy tossed Odz around like garbage He is not SHICHIBUKAI (why can't you understand that). YOUR MINIONS ARE NEVER SUPPOSE TO BE STRONGER THAN YOU (Moria)!
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Old 2007-11-20, 22:40   Link #72
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Mihawks sword is greater than Shanks sword, yet Shanks skills were equal to Mihawk.
It is all about the WEILDER of the blade.
How do you know Mihawk's sword is greater than Shanks's sword? And how do you know long time ago both had the swords they are carrying right now?

And it is not about the skill only. If you give the same skilled people different swords, one better than the other, the one carrying the better one is going to become the winner at the end in a death fight, because his sword will most probably shatter the other one's sword.

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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Moria IS A SHICHIBUKAI, I don't give a damn if Nightmare Luffy tossed Odz around like garbage He is not SHICHIBUKAI (why can't you understand that). YOUR MINIONS ARE NEVER SUPPOSE TO BE STRONGER THAN YOU (Moria)!
Just a correction. Luffy trashed Moria powered Odz, not just Odz. And, the Odz, that you didn't want to give a damn about, trashed all the other crew members.
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Old 2007-11-20, 22:55   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
How do you know Mihawk's sword is greater than Shanks's sword? And how do you know long time ago both had the swords they are carrying right now?

And it is not about the skill only. If you give the same skilled people different swords, one better than the other, the one carrying the better one is going to become the winner at the end in a death fight, because his sword will most probably shatter the other one's sword.
Mihawk has the strongest sword in the world, Shanks doesn't.
Shanks CASUALLY asked Mihawk for a duel with a lower sword.

Quote:
Just a correction. Luffy trashed Moria powered Odz, not just Odz. And, the Odz, that you didn't want to give a damn about, trashed all the other crew members.
Moria doesn't increase Odz durability?
Moria doesn't increase Odz speed?
Moria doesn't increase Odz strength?

Moria did nothing but make him stretch and protect him from salt.
I didn't see Moria protect Odz from Nightmare Luffy? Did nothing but got his bloody *** kicked.
Shichibukai my ***!
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Old 2007-11-20, 23:03   Link #74
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Mihawk has the strongest sword in the world, Shanks doesn't.
Shanks CASUALLY asked Mihawk for a duel with a lower sword.
He may have right now. But, I don't remember any information that mentions he had the sword when he had his duels with Shanks. Do you?

And, maybe before Shanks was superior to Mihawk, in terms of skills, but Mihawk was able to compensate that with his sword. I don't remember any information that may contradict that.

Quote:
Moria doesn't increase Odz durability?
Moria doesn't increase Odz speed?
Moria doesn't increase Odz strength?

Moria did nothing but make him streth and protect him from salt.
I didn't see Moria protect Odz from Nightmare Luffy? Shichibukai my ***!
Moria did increase Odz's strength. That is not even open to discussion, it is a fact. I hope you can differentiate the cases of Odz hitting with a normal arm and Odz hitting with a flexible arm. If you do not want to directly use the words increased the strength, I think you should be ok with effective or visible strength. Moria, using Luffy's ability, was able to give Odz a semi-rubber body.
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Old 2007-11-21, 05:37   Link #75
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Zoro beat Ryumma, Zoro's swords were lower than Ryumma's Autumn Water. Like I said the Sword is not the same as Moria using Odz.
You'd be correct if Ryuma and Zoro were equals, but they are not... Zoro is the stronger swordsman and overcame any advantage that Ryuma gained by having a better sword

When it comes to Zoro, Oda has always emphasized the greatness of swords, that a stronger sword does make a difference, that the best thing a swordsman can do is find one of the higher grade swords since they will be able to go to farther with a legendary sword then they would with any common sword. Hell collecting great swords is all part of his dream of becoming the greatest swordsman in the world

i mean just look at what Zoro said back when he gave his new sword a test drive...
After using his attack he exclaimed "It's huge" as in he was surprised by how much power he had just used and how large his attack was, as in he never did that before with his old sword... seriously when was the last time you saw Zoro shocked by the results of his own attack; last time i recall him being shocked like that was when he testing out his cursed sword for the first time, he was shocked by how sharp the sword was, surprised that he was able to easily cut through stone with it,even saying that it might cause him problems (just like his new sword is now doing)... then he says ina few panels later, "but there's too much Random Destructoin around that hole. That's proof I'm not good enough at using it yet... The power's increased Impressively... but it looks like this sword is not very well behaved either. This is some blade you've given me... Master swordsman Ryuuma!"

Thoughout that entire monlouge he is complimenting the sword's power, not his own... he talks about how the power of his attacks has been increased by using his new sword. He even states that he will need to get stronger just so he can use the sword's power effectivly. He practically regards the sword as a person, stating it is not well-behaved, as if it has a will of it's own...

The relationship between swordsman and sword is a two way bond, it is not a one-way relationship
... that's how it is in one piece... Swords are not just fancy trinkets... they have a power of their own

Quote:
Moria IS A SHICHIBUKAI, I don't give a damn if Nightmare Luffy tossed Odz around like garbage He is not SHICHIBUKAI (why can't you understand that).
Luffy IS on the same level of the shichibukai now... Luffy has defeated croc, he has defeated Rob Lucchi a feat the wolrd gov't finds just about as impressive as beating a shichibukai, Luffy has a bounty that is on the same level as other pirates who leave the sea and become shichibukai (croc and Kuma), Luffy has grown so strong that the world gov't FEARS that he will defeat other shichibukai... Luffy has proven, that with his own powers that he is in the same league as the shichibukai; hell after Enies Lobby, i'm certain the wolrd gov't would have egarly made him a shichibukai if given the chance (luffy's burning of the flag however ruins such a chance)... Is he as strong as someone like Mihawk, No, but Mihawk is not the measurement fo the adverage Shichibukai, he is the measurement of the very top, where as Croc would be the lowest... ANYONE who falls inbetween those two can make the ranks of the shichibukai adn that's where both Luffy and Moria fall under... Prove that Luffy does not have the strength of a shichibukai

And with nightmare Luffy... the shadow upgrade granted Luffy an insane increase in power, making him many times stronger... if Luffy was even remotely close to being on level with the shichibukai, the nightmare power up would have brought him above and beyond that strength... Hell, If Luffy was able to keep the nightmare power, i'm sure his bounty would have doubled, or possibly even tripled (though that might be pusshing it)

Quote:
YOUR MINIONS ARE NEVER SUPPOSE TO BE STRONGER THAN YOU (Moria)!
So your saying, that if you had the chance to have say... whitebeard as a subordinate, that Whitebeard was somehow forced into absolute servitude/loyalty to you and that there was no chance that he would ever rise up against you and that he would use all of his power to support you keep you alive and help you make all your dreams come true, you would reject such an offer on the grounds that a minion should not be stronger...

i can see personal reasons to reject such a member, such as you don't like their personality and can't stand being in the same room as them, like how Luffy selects his crew selecting only poeple he likes, but to reject them for nothign more then that they were stronger than you... nuh-huh... having such a crew member not only greatly boosts the strength of your crew, but it will help keep you alive so that you yourself can grow stronger; hell you could even train with the crew member to increase how fast you grow

rejecting such a crew member would be like rejecting Pluton, or the chance to have your ship built out of the strongest wood by Tom or Franky, or the chance to have the most powerful of devil fruits, the most powerful of swords, or the greatest gun and so forth... to reject these things merely because they are more powerful then yourself and what you already pocess would be rather foolish IMO

Last edited by Slayerx; 2007-11-21 at 08:46.
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Old 2007-11-21, 15:45   Link #76
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
He may have right now. But, I don't remember any information that mentions he had the sword when he had his duels with Shanks. Do you?

And, maybe before Shanks was superior to Mihawk, in terms of skills, but Mihawk was able to compensate that with his sword. I don't remember any information that may contradict that.
It is obvious Mihawk had the sword with his duels against Shanks. Zeff even knew about the sword.

Quote:
Moria did increase Odz's strength. That is not even open to discussion, it is a fact. I hope you can differentiate the cases of Odz hitting with a normal arm and Odz hitting with a flexible arm. If you do not want to directly use the words increased the strength, I think you should be ok with effective or visible strength. Moria, using Luffy's ability, was able to give Odz a semi-rubber body.
That did nothing but get his *** kicked.

Quote:
You'd be correct if Ryuma and Zoro were equals, but they are not... Zoro is the stronger swordsman and overcame any advantage that Ryuma gained by having a better sword

When it comes to Zoro, Oda has always emphasized the greatness of swords, that a stronger sword does make a difference, that the best thing a swordsman can do is find one of the higher grade swords since they will be able to go to farther with a legendary sword then they would with any common sword. Hell collecting great swords is all part of his dream of becoming the greatest swordsman in the world

i mean just look at what Zoro said back when he gave his new sword a test drive...
After using his attack he exclaimed "It's huge" as in he was surprised by how much power he had just used and how large his attack was, as in he never did that before with his old sword... seriously when was the last time you saw Zoro shocked by the results of his own attack; last time i recall him being shocked like that was when he testing out his cursed sword for the first time, he was shocked by how sharp the sword was, surprised that he was able to easily cut through stone with it,even saying that it might cause him problems (just like his new sword is now doing)... then he says ina few panels later, "but there's too much Random Destructoin around that hole. That's proof I'm not good enough at using it yet... The power's increased Impressively... but it looks like this sword is not very well behaved either. This is some blade you've given me... Master swordsman Ryuuma!"

Thoughout that entire monlouge he is complimenting the sword's power, not his own... he talks about how the power of his attacks has been increased by using his new sword. He even states that he will need to get stronger just so he can use the sword's power effectivly. He practically regards the sword as a person, stating it is not well-behaved, as if it has a will of it's own...

The relationship between swordsman and sword is a two way bond, it is not a one-way relationship
... that's how it is in one piece... Swords are not just fancy trinkets... they have a power of their own
Quote:
Brook: It is possible that those two possess...The same kind of musculature, as swordsmen.

Franky: What happens if they're the same?

Brook: Then they both carry similar levels of destruction...This match will not last long, I should think.

Quote:
Luffy IS on the same level of the shichibukai now... Luffy has defeated croc, he has defeated Rob Lucchi a feat the wolrd gov't finds just about as impressive as beating a shichibukai, Luffy has a bounty that is on the same level as other pirates who leave the sea and become shichibukai (croc and Kuma), Luffy has grown so strong that the world gov't FEARS that he will defeat other shichibukai... Luffy has proven, that with his own powers that he is in the same league as the shichibukai; hell after Enies Lobby, i'm certain the wolrd gov't would have egarly made him a shichibukai if given the chance (luffy's burning of the flag however ruins such a chance)... Is he as strong as someone like Mihawk, No, but Mihawk is not the measurement fo the adverage Shichibukai, he is the measurement of the very top, where as Croc would be the lowest... ANYONE who falls inbetween those two can make the ranks of the shichibukai adn that's where both Luffy and Moria fall under... Prove that Luffy does not have the strength of a shichibukai

And with nightmare Luffy... the shadow upgrade granted Luffy an insane increase in power, making him many times stronger... if Luffy was even remotely close to being on level with the shichibukai, the nightmare power up would have brought him above and beyond that strength... Hell, If Luffy was able to keep the nightmare power, i'm sure his bounty would have doubled, or possibly even tripled (though that might be pusshing it)

So your saying, that if you had the chance to have say... whitebeard as a subordinate, that Whitebeard was somehow forced into absolute servitude/loyalty to you and that there was no chance that he would ever rise up against you and that he would use all of his power to support you keep you alive and help you make all your dreams come true, you would reject such an offer on the grounds that a minion should not be stronger...

i can see personal reasons to reject such a member, such as you don't like their personality and can't stand being in the same room as them, like how Luffy selects his crew selecting only poeple he likes, but to reject them for nothign more then that they were stronger than you... nuh-huh... having such a crew member not only greatly boosts the strength of your crew, but it will help keep you alive so that you yourself can grow stronger; hell you could even train with the crew member to increase how fast you grow

rejecting such a crew member would be like rejecting Pluton, or the chance to have your ship built out of the strongest wood by Tom or Franky, or the chance to have the most powerful of devil fruits, the most powerful of swords, or the greatest gun and so forth... to reject these things merely because they are more powerful then yourself and what you already pocess would be rather foolish IMO

Luffy is not on the level of a Shichibukai. Luffy can't beat Crocodile TODAY without water, Luffy looks like he would get his *** kicked by Kuma. Luffy needed CIRCUMSTANCES to even compete with Crocodile and all in all the last fight between Luffy and Crocodile was a TIE because Luffy needed Robins antedote. Without it he would have died and croco would still be breathing. Moria did not carry the torch of Crocodile's awesome power and got his *** beat easily by a Hulk/Luffy who had no special type of power but increased ability (strength/speed). Moria fails and has not shown the power to be a Bukai.

As for your surbodinate deal, they are never shown to be stronger than the captain when it comes to heavy hitters. Red-Haired Shanks, Whitebeard, Crocodile etc.
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Old 2007-11-21, 16:22   Link #77
shankss
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Quote:
Luffy is not on the level of a Shichibukai
2 shichibukai got owned no matter how.Calling Luffy shichibukai is simply an insult...Luffy must have surpassed shichibukai title by now

Quote:
Luffy can't beat Crocodile TODAY without water
If thats the problem nothing can beat Enel and he can simply own everyone from Moria to Kuma to Flamingo to Mihawk...or even entire shichibukai community combinated

Quote:
Luffy looks like he would get his *** kicked by Kuma
damn it must be really harsh for you to see a shichibukai dead...
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Old 2007-11-21, 17:00   Link #78
Fyria
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Guys Schichibukai is ONLY a title, rank for powerful pirates who are under 'wings' of goverment and are used to bully other pirates.

Power diffrence between Schichibukai members is quite large, not everyone is one same line of 'raw' power, They are Schichibukais because their unique abilityes, status and skills.

Lets take example of Barthomelow Kuma, he has power of teleportation what he can use effectivly on battle and he makes good messenger to govermennt because he is so loyal.

YES you have to be strong on certain degree so you can be used to intimidate other pirates, however strenght can be in diffrent forms, you can be either strong warrior by yourself or you may gain strenght by your manipulation on others like Donflamingo and Gecko Moria.
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Old 2007-11-21, 18:00   Link #79
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
That did nothing but get his *** kicked.
That's because the power Oz recieved from Moria wasn't enough to beat out the power of Nightmare Luffy...
fact is, what you just says does not refute that Oz recieved an increase in strength from Moria
Quote:
Luffy is not on the level of a Shichibukai. Luffy can't beat Crocodile TODAY without water, Luffy looks like he would get his *** kicked by Kuma. Luffy needed CIRCUMSTANCES to even compete with Crocodile and all in all the last fight between Luffy and Crocodile was a TIE because Luffy needed Robins antedote. Without it he would have died and croco would still be breathing. Moria did not carry the torch of Crocodile's awesome power and got his *** beat easily by a Hulk/Luffy who had no special type of power but increased ability (strength/speed). Moria fails and has not shown the power to be a Bukai.
Using you opponents weakness is a perfectly legitiment tactic, and it is practically a must for fighting Logia's... so far all Logia's have been beaten through exploiting a weakness... Croc was weak to water, Enel was weak to rubber, and Ace had is power nullified by Blackbeard's power... So far, from what Oda has shown us, a Logia can not be beaten without exploiting their weakness (with the exception of blackbeard since he doesn't have the phasing ability of other logia's), it's part of why logia is the most powerful class of devil fruit; unless you can PROVE otherwise... From what Oda has shown us thus far, even Mihawk could not beat a logia without exploiting their weakness... and no, your claims that Mihawk could beat Logia's like croc and enel are nothing but fanboy driven BASELESS speculation... you need a little something called PROOF to back up an arguement

Hell, one thing i'm vaguely remined of is how you used to going on about how Enel had Luffy weakness by using a trident... and what kind of attacks did Croc try to use against Luffy? Bladed sand attacks and a hook... i guess it's alright for croc to exploit Luffy's weakness but Luffy can't exploit Croc's... oh and what about a battle between Luffy and Mihawk... MIhawk would be using a sword against Luffy... i guess it's alright for ANYONE to use another person's weakness as long as it's not Luffy using it...

Did Luffy defeat poeple like Crocodile and Rob Luuchi single handedly? Yes
Does the world gov't fear Luffy will defeat other shichibukai? Yes
Does Luffy have a bounty on the same level as other shichibukai had when they first joined the gov't? Yes
Has Luffy done actions that NO OTHER PIRATE has ever done before? Yes
Tell me, if Luffy was not in the same league as the shichibukai, then why does the gov't and Kuma think that he will defeat more of them?
I'm sure you should have no probably refuting those points...

Quote:
Brook: It is possible that those two possess...The same kind of musculature, as swordsmen.

Franky: What happens if they're the same?

Brook: Then they both carry similar levels of destruction...This match will not last long, I should think.
Musculature does not translate to overall strength... in only speaks of raw destructive power... a swordsman's overall strength is determined by more then raw strength, as their is speed and skill to consider aswell... and Zoro's overall abilities surpassed Ryuuma's

and since you DODGED the quotation before... i'll repeat... maybe you'll actually try to refute it this time.

After using his sword for the first time and being surprised at how powerful his attack was.
Zoro: "but there's too much Random Destructoin around that hole. That's proof I'm not good enough at using it yet... The power's increased Impressively... but it looks like this sword is not very well behaved either. This is some blade you've given me... Master swordsman Ryuuma!"
Please do tell me how Zoro is NOT talking about and complimenting his new sword's strength

Quote:
As for your surbodinate deal, they are never shown to be stronger than the captain when it comes to heavy hitters. Red-Haired Shanks, Whitebeard, Crocodile etc.
Hmmm... remind me again, who is the leader of CP9 and hands down all the orders to the other members?
Oh and maybe you can tells us who leads the world gov't... cause last i checked it wasn't sen goku ro the shichibukai but 5 old men...
Which reminds me of the marines... where early on we had i think a commadore, a decently high marine rank and out ranked stronger characters(compared to himself) like tashagi and coby, who lost to a few of arlong's men... really, you'd think that if leading troops was something only for the strongest he would have been able to atleast handle a few subordinates...

The ONLY reason we see the captain as the strongest is because the captain usually leads by virtue that he IS the strongest... for many crews, like shanks, the captian strength is a source of inspiation so weaker poeple flock toto his side... and in some crews, if the captain wasn't the strongest, then the captain would be overthrown... however, this is not an absoulte rule... Moria for one has a unquie power that allows him to create subordinates that are stronger then himself and yet still maintain their absolute loyalty... he doesn't need to be the strongest since all of his crew are forced to follow him regardless
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Old 2007-11-21, 18:40   Link #80
naruto89
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Chapter 480 isnt coming out this week
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