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Old 2007-11-21, 20:45   Link #81
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
It is obvious Mihawk had the sword with his duels against Shanks. Zeff even knew about the sword.
Obvious? I don't think so. Zeff never said that Mihawk had the sword when he was dueling with Shanks.
Quote:
That did nothing but get his *** kicked.
Against the shadow-enhanced Luffy, it wouldn't have mattered whether Moria was inside or outside Odz. But, would you have said the same thing if Luffy were to confront Odz-with-Moria without the shadows. It wouldn't have ended that way - at least it will be much more difficult for Luffy to beat both Odz and Moria.

Anyway, Moria made Odz beat all the others there. So, it was "definitely" a good choice - or maybe the best choice - at that time. Too bad, for Moria, it didn't work against Luffy.

Quote:
Luffy can't beat Crocodile TODAY without water
That is a weak statement. It is like saying Crocodile cannot beat Luffy without sand. Luffy is many level above from the old Luffy, the one that fought against Crocodile. Hence, I think right now, Luffy in Gear 2 would easily beat Crocodile, even when Crocodile is fighting in his strongest form. Crocodile wouldn't be able to match up the strength and speed of Gear 2. After all, currently, Crocodile seems to be the weakest Shichibukai.
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Old 2007-11-22, 01:26   Link #82
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
That's because the power Oz recieved from Moria wasn't enough to beat out the power of Nightmare Luffy...
fact is, what you just says does not refute that Oz recieved an increase in strength from Moria
Never did Odz get an increase in strength, making him stretch does not increase his strength.

Quote:
Using you opponents weakness is a perfectly legitiment tactic, and it is practically a must for fighting Logia's... so far all Logia's have been beaten through exploiting a weakness... Croc was weak to water, Enel was weak to rubber, and Ace had is power nullified by Blackbeard's power... So far, from what Oda has shown us, a Logia can not be beaten without exploiting their weakness (with the exception of blackbeard since he doesn't have the phasing ability of other logia's), it's part of why logia is the most powerful class of devil fruit; unless you can PROVE otherwise... From what Oda has shown us thus far, even Mihawk could not beat a logia without exploiting their weakness... and no, your claims that Mihawk could beat Logia's like croc and enel are nothing but fanboy driven BASELESS speculation... you need a little something called PROOF to back up an arguement

Hell, one thing i'm vaguely remined of is how you used to going on about how Enel had Luffy weakness by using a trident... and what kind of attacks did Croc try to use against Luffy? Bladed sand attacks and a hook... i guess it's alright for croc to exploit Luffy's weakness but Luffy can't exploit Croc's... oh and what about a battle between Luffy and Mihawk... MIhawk would be using a sword against Luffy... i guess it's alright for ANYONE to use another person's weakness as long as it's not Luffy using it...

Did Luffy defeat poeple like Crocodile and Rob Luuchi single handedly? Yes
Does the world gov't fear Luffy will defeat other shichibukai? Yes
Does Luffy have a bounty on the same level as other shichibukai had when they first joined the gov't? Yes
Has Luffy done actions that NO OTHER PIRATE has ever done before? Yes
Tell me, if Luffy was not in the same league as the shichibukai, then why does the gov't and Kuma think that he will defeat more of them?
I'm sure you should have no probably refuting those points...
Sigh, my point is Luffy got Croc's weakness and Luffy STILL...STILL got his *** kicked. You know why? Crocodile is a Shichibukai he can overcome such circumstances and he did. Luffy HAD HELP he had plot and THREE chances against Croc and should have died if it weren't for Nico Robin's help. Do you see where I am going here? Unlike weak *** Moria who got pwned in a couple of panels.

Quote:
Musculature does not translate to overall strength... in only speaks of raw destructive power... a swordsman's overall strength is determined by more then raw strength, as their is speed and skill to consider aswell... and Zoro's overall abilities surpassed Ryuuma's

and since you DODGED the quotation before... i'll repeat... maybe you'll actually try to refute it this time.

After using his sword for the first time and being surprised at how powerful his attack was.
Zoro: "but there's too much Random Destructoin around that hole. That's proof I'm not good enough at using it yet... The power's increased Impressively... but it looks like this sword is not very well behaved either. This is some blade you've given me... Master swordsman Ryuuma!"
Please do tell me how Zoro is NOT talking about and complimenting his new sword's strength
sigh read it again.

Quote:
Franky: What happens if they're the same?

Brook: Then they both carry similar levels of destruction...
This match
will not last long, I should think.
Zoro is possibly talking about controlling his new sword. There was no projectile shooting out of the sword. The sword did not do that itself.

Quote:
Hmmm... remind me again, who is the leader of CP9 and hands down all the orders to the other members?
Oh and maybe you can tells us who leads the world gov't... cause last i checked it wasn't sen goku ro the shichibukai but 5 old men...
Which reminds me of the marines... where early on we had i think a commadore, a decently high marine rank and out ranked stronger characters(compared to himself) like tashagi and coby, who lost to a few of arlong's men... really, you'd think that if leading troops was something only for the strongest he would have been able to atleast handle a few subordinates...

The ONLY reason we see the captain as the strongest is because the captain usually leads by virtue that he IS the strongest... for many crews, like shanks, the captian strength is a source of inspiation so weaker poeple flock toto his side... and in some crews, if the captain wasn't the strongest, then the captain would be overthrown... however, this is not an absoulte rule... Moria for one has a unquie power that allows him to create subordinates that are stronger then himself and yet still maintain their absolute loyalty... he doesn't need to be the strongest since all of his crew are forced to follow him regardless
[/QUOTE]

I said leaders as in HEAVY HITTERS, not crappy Spandam. And the five old stars looks like they been through some battles so I would not count them out of combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Obvious? I don't think so. Zeff never said that Mihawk had the sword when he was dueling with Shanks.
Why wouldn't he? Otherwise Shanks would have HINTED at Mihawk having a new sword when he asked him for a duel.

Quote:
Against the shadow-enhanced Luffy, it wouldn't have mattered whether Moria was inside or outside Odz. But, would you have said the same thing if Luffy were to confront Odz-with-Moria without the shadows. It wouldn't have ended that way - at least it will be much more difficult for Luffy to beat both Odz and Moria.

Anyway, Moria made Odz beat all the others there. So, it was "definitely" a good choice - or maybe the best choice - at that time. Too bad, for Moria, it didn't work against Luffy.

What? Moria has powers of his own he should have combat abilities of his own to be on that level.

HE DID NOT HAVE ODZ HIS ENTIRE CAREER SO PLEASE QUIT ACTING LIKE THAT IS ALL HE CAN DO!

Quote:
That is a weak statement. It is like saying Crocodile cannot beat Luffy without sand. Luffy is many level above from the old Luffy, the one that fought against Crocodile. Hence, I think right now, Luffy in Gear 2 would easily beat Crocodile, even when Crocodile is fighting in his strongest form. Crocodile wouldn't be able to match up the strength and speed of Gear 2. After all, currently, Crocodile seems to be the weakest Shichibukai.
LOL Weakest Shichibukai? That title belongs to Moria.
Luffy in Gears or as Nightmare has NO ANSWER for Crocodile at all. Luffy would get wasted just like in his previous match-ups against Crocodile.
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Old 2007-11-22, 02:45   Link #83
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Why wouldn't he? Otherwise Shanks would have HINTED at Mihawk having a new sword when he asked him for a duel.
Would he? Do you remember Mihawk asking Shanks about how he lost his arm? And, as you might know, Mihawk was already aware of a boy like Luffy, so, it is clear they have met after the duel time at least once. And, I guess, considering their rather closeness, they most probably met a lot of times. There was time to have that discussion before, who knows maybe one year ago too.

Quote:
What? Moria has powers of his own he should have combat abilities of his own to be on that level.

HE DID NOT HAVE ODZ HIS ENTIRE CAREER SO PLEASE QUIT ACTING LIKE THAT IS ALL HE CAN DO!
Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe, Moria without Zombies or a medium like that was not as powerful as you think. Yes, he can play with people's shadows, and, gain the opportunity to kill them afterwards. If you have missed, he ALREADY showed that. What do you expect from him? Soru? Swordfighting? Gear 3? Maybe that is all he can do!

And by the way, you seem to ignore Crocodile's poison weapon and use it as an excuse to decide on their level, but you seem pretty careful when the matter comes to Odz.

Quote:
LOL Weakest Shichibukai? That title belongs to Moria.
Luffy in Gears or as Nightmare has NO ANSWER for Crocodile at all. Luffy would get wasted just like in his previous match-ups against Crocodile.
Crocodile is the weakest Shichibukai. You can make a case if he had a bounty close to 300 million, but, his ex-bounty is 80 million, and according to Oda, his latest seem to be around 160 million, not even around the 200 million range. Currently, Crocodile is the weakest Shichibukai.

Also, no answer to Crocodile? Let me reverse the question towards you. Does Crocodile have an answer for Gear 2 and Gear 3? He had already showed that, he is slow, compared to gear 2, maybe as slow as a turtle compared to rabbit.

If you have missed, Crocodile can only escape a hit, if the hit is slower than his reaction time to turn to sand. That is "NOT" the case against the current Luffy. At his age Crocodile was already past his expiration date.
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Old 2007-11-22, 03:07   Link #84
Slayerx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Never did Odz get an increase in strength, making him stretch does not increase his strength.
Let's look at round 2 of strawhats vs Oz... one thing you notice that they were gaining groung and they were slowly but surely beating him... However, when Moria joined the fight and started making Oz Stretch the fight pulled a 180 and the strawhats were on the run... Stretching does make a difference in a fight, it adds a lot of extra power, speed and distance to an attack, and it was the factor that caused the strawhats to loose agianst the combined might of Moria and Oz. Hell why do you think Luffy stretches? because he feels like it? no, he does it because it adds more to he his attacks

Quote:
Sigh, my point is Luffy got Croc's weakness and Luffy STILL...STILL got his *** kicked. You know why? Crocodile is a Shichibukai he can overcome such circumstances and he did. Luffy HAD HELP he had plot and THREE chances against Croc and should have died if it weren't for Nico Robin's help. Do you see where I am going here? Unlike weak *** Moria who got pwned in a couple of panels.
Not sure if you were paying attention but Plot saved Luffy from Moria aswell... Moria had a perfect chance to Kill Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro, but thanks to plot they were all sparred... and again, Moria got beaten in a few panels by something MANY times FAR stronger than what Croc had to face...

It doesn't matter if Luffy lost the first 2 times he faced croc... fact of the matter is that Luffy proved he was capable of beating croc and Luffy has been growing in power ever since... If Luffy did it once he can do it again; especially since he has grown stronger since then

Quote:
Zoro is possibly talking about controlling his new sword. There was no projectile shooting out of the sword. The sword did not do that itself.
and again, similar (not same) destructive power does not speak of overall strength just their raw strength... it does not speak of skill, speed and such other factors.... oh by the way... as it turns out, One of Zoro's sword's, the one he got from Kunia is ALSO one of the 21 legendary swords just liek Ryumma's sword... so even if what you said was true it doesn't even matter as Zoro had a sword of similar level as well in addition to his crused blade which is also a really good sword...

and tell me... If the sword has no power of it's own, then why would Zoro need to train to control the sword?
And your statement does not change the fact that Zoro was surpirsed at how effective his attack was, as in, before he aquired Ryumma's sword, he never performed such an attack before... he practially said that Ryumma's sword made the difference in power.

Let's look at another Zoro quote...

Zoro after using his cursed blade to cut through a stone hammer
Zoro: So! This one cut's through Stone! The Sungdai Kitetsu Blade is Remarkably Sharp! A Good Sword that cuts whatever the weilder wishes to cut. This sword might cause problems for me.

Zoro complments the sword's sharpness (one of the factors that determine a sword's power), is surpirsed that he cut through stone with that attack (if it was all about him alone, then he should NOT be surprised by his own abilities), and believes he might have trouble controling the blade... all things that talk about the sword's power

here's another quote from right after Zoro met Ryuma
Zoro: "That katana... seems pretty STRONG."
oh my... whatever could Zoro mean by that line

really now... if legendary swords did not have power of their own, then why would Zoro want to take Ryuma's sword when he can just take any common sword and be just as strong?
Hell considering how Zoro claims he's gonna need to train in order to use the sword properly, why should he bother learning how to handle the sword when he can just get a common sword and be just as strong.

Zoro has made it loud and clear that sword's DO have a power of their own... weight, density, the type of metal, the sharpness, the quality of the worksmanship, the length and width of the blade... all these are qualities that sperate swords from one another and these are the qualities that determine the sword's strength.
Quote:
I said leaders as in HEAVY HITTERS, not crappy Spandam. And the five old stars looks like they been through some battles so I would not count them out of combat.
Limiting your choices to only heavy hitters does not change that fact that one can be a leader of subordiate's that are stronger then himself... Moria happens to be an exception to the general trend since he is both a pretty heavy hitter AND capable of having minions more powerful then himself

Quote:
Luffy in Gears or as Nightmare has NO ANSWER for Crocodile at all. Luffy would get wasted just like in his previous match-ups against Crocodile.
pheh... rematch agianst Croc would go down like the last fight, though instead be very onesided... Croc got beaten in the last round and he would get beaten again... and that was before Luffy grew in stength and gain abilities like gear 2 and 3. Luffy would beat Croc fairly easily now, and nightmare Luffy would send him running... if Nightmare Luffy were to attack, you could be sure that croc would start making a hasty retreat (normal Luffy is bad enough)
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Old 2007-11-22, 21:34   Link #85
tntrulez
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It's good that Moria gets beaten so quick. I wonder how fast Nightmare Luffy was moving compared to Oz and Moria. My guess is that time was slowed down per panel, but if it's real time then it took a couple of seconds for Oz to get beat. Otherwise, the Hammer wouldn't have hit Moria but Moria's shadow instead.
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Old 2007-11-23, 03:38   Link #86
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
Let's look at round 2 of strawhats vs Oz... one thing you notice that they were gaining groung and they were slowly but surely beating him... However, when Moria joined the fight and started making Oz Stretch the fight pulled a 180 and the strawhats were on the run... Stretching does make a difference in a fight, it adds a lot of extra power, speed and distance to an attack, and it was the factor that caused the strawhats to loose agianst the combined might of Moria and Oz. Hell why do you think Luffy stretches? because he feels like it? no, he does it because it adds more to he his attacks
SH were never beating Odz, none of their attacks had any effect at all. BTW I didn't see Odz stretch when he casually kneed Zoro.

Quote:
Not sure if you were paying attention but Plot saved Luffy from Moria aswell... Moria had a perfect chance to Kill Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro, but thanks to plot they were all sparred... and again, Moria got beaten in a few panels by something MANY times FAR stronger than what Croc had to face...

It doesn't matter if Luffy lost the first 2 times he faced croc... fact of the matter is that Luffy proved he was capable of beating croc and Luffy has been growing in power ever since... If Luffy did it once he can do it again; especially since he has grown stronger since then
Luffy NEVER beat Croc, Robin SAVED Luffy in the end. Looks like Luffy didn't need any plot to beat Moria, as you saw in their first encounter Moria kept running away. Luffy needed plot to beat Odz, Moria really never fought.

Quote:
and again, similar (not same) destructive power does not speak of overall strength just their raw strength... it does not speak of skill, speed and such other factors.... oh by the way... as it turns out, One of Zoro's sword's, the one he got from Kunia is ALSO one of the 21 legendary swords just liek Ryumma's sword... so even if what you said was true it doesn't even matter as Zoro had a sword of similar level as well in addition to his crused blade which is also a really good sword...

and tell me... If the sword has no power of it's own, then why would Zoro need to train to control the sword?
And your statement does not change the fact that Zoro was surpirsed at how effective his attack was, as in, before he aquired Ryumma's sword, he never performed such an attack before... he practially said that Ryumma's sword made the difference in power.

Let's look at another Zoro quote...

Zoro after using his cursed blade to cut through a stone hammer
Zoro: So! This one cut's through Stone! The Sungdai Kitetsu Blade is Remarkably Sharp! A Good Sword that cuts whatever the weilder wishes to cut. This sword might cause problems for me.

Zoro complments the sword's sharpness (one of the factors that determine a sword's power), is surpirsed that he cut through stone with that attack (if it was all about him alone, then he should NOT be surprised by his own abilities), and believes he might have trouble controling the blade... all things that talk about the sword's power

here's another quote from right after Zoro met Ryuma
Zoro: "That katana... seems pretty STRONG."
oh my... whatever could Zoro mean by that line

really now... if legendary swords did not have power of their own, then why would Zoro want to take Ryuma's sword when he can just take any common sword and be just as strong?
Hell considering how Zoro claims he's gonna need to train in order to use the sword properly, why should he bother learning how to handle the sword when he can just get a common sword and be just as strong.

Zoro has made it loud and clear that sword's DO have a power of their own... weight, density, the type of metal, the sharpness, the quality of the worksmanship, the length and width of the blade... all these are qualities that sperate swords from one another and these are the qualities that determine the sword's strength.
I am sorry Franky basically confirmed what Brooke was saying by stating that both were indeed the "SAME!" They were equal in overall power the entire battle proved that. Look the fact of the matter is that Odz has it's own power and is alive and Moria used Odz strength. Swordsman have to use their own strength not the swords strength.

Quote:
Limiting your choices to only heavy hitters does not change that fact that one can be a leader of subordiate's that are stronger then himself... Moria happens to be an exception to the general trend since he is both a pretty heavy hitter AND capable of having minions more powerful then himself
I am sorry who had the 320 million bounty?
Who was the Shichibukai?
QUIT ACTING AS IF MORIA HAD ODZ HIS ENTIRE CAREER CAUSE HE DIDN'T.

Quote:
pheh... rematch agianst Croc would go down like the last fight, though instead be very onesided... Croc got beaten in the last round and he would get beaten again... and that was before Luffy grew in stength and gain abilities like gear 2 and 3. Luffy would beat Croc fairly easily now, and nightmare Luffy would send him running... if Nightmare Luffy were to attack, you could be sure that croc would start making a hasty retreat (normal Luffy is bad enough)
Sorry Luffy has no water, And Croc could waste him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Would he? Do you remember Mihawk asking Shanks about how he lost his arm? And, as you might know, Mihawk was already aware of a boy like Luffy, so, it is clear they have met after the duel time at least once. And, I guess, considering their rather closeness, they most probably met a lot of times. There was time to have that discussion before, who knows maybe one year ago too.
Yes Shanks would have asked about that HUGE sword that looks like a cross on his back. Shanks has seen it and fought it before.

Quote:
Maybe yes maybe no. Maybe, Moria without Zombies or a medium like that was not as powerful as you think. Yes, he can play with people's shadows, and, gain the opportunity to kill them afterwards. If you have missed, he ALREADY showed that. What do you expect from him? Soru? Swordfighting? Gear 3? Maybe that is all he can do!

And by the way, you seem to ignore Crocodile's poison weapon and use it as an excuse to decide on their level, but you seem pretty careful when the matter comes to Odz.
I have no problem with Moria using Odz, but damn don't get pwned along with your subordinate.

Quote:
Crocodile is the weakest Shichibukai. You can make a case if he had a bounty close to 300 million, but, his ex-bounty is 80 million, and according to Oda, his latest seem to be around 160 million, not even around the 200 million range. Currently, Crocodile is the weakest Shichibukai.

Also, no answer to Crocodile? Let me reverse the question towards you. Does Crocodile have an answer for Gear 2 and Gear 3? He had already showed that, he is slow, compared to gear 2, maybe as slow as a turtle compared to rabbit.

If you have missed, Crocodile can only escape a hit, if the hit is slower than his reaction time to turn to sand. That is "NOT" the case against the current Luffy. At his age Crocodile was already past his expiration date.
A Logia is never considered the weakest. Luffy can't touch Crocodile he can't hit a logia and Crocodile could easily drain Luffy.
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Old 2007-11-23, 05:55   Link #87
Slayerx
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Quote:
SH were never beating Odz, none of their attacks had any effect at all.
The battle was turning in their favor, Oz was no longer owning the battle like he did before, and if not for Moria they probably would have beaten Oz

Quote:
Luffy NEVER beat Croc, Robin SAVED Luffy in the end. Looks like Luffy didn't need any plot to beat Moria, as you saw in their first encounter Moria kept running away. Luffy needed plot to beat Odz, Moria really never fought.
Luffy needed plot to save him from Moria... Moria had Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji captured and unconsious. all three of them were at his mercy

Quote:
I am sorry Franky basically confirmed what Brooke was saying by stating that both were indeed the "SAME!" They were equal in overall power the entire battle proved that. Look the fact of the matter is that Odz has it's own power and is alive and Moria used Odz strength. Swordsman have to use their own strength not the swords strength.
1) Franky a Brooke were probably talking about raw power, not overall strength (overall strength is determined by more than just raw power)... brooke specially mentions physcial strength, which does not nessary include other elements like technique, skill, and so forth; other elements that determines a swordsman's OVERALL strength
2) Saying that Zoro and Ryuuma are of the same strength does not make much sence cause in the end Zoro won... even if you say that the swords had no influence in the fight, by your assumption that they are of same strength, the fight should have either ended in a draw, or at the least Zoro would be too worn out to move on to fighting Oz (kinda like how Luffy was so worn out he couldn't even move after his fight with Lucchi)... it's pretty obvious that Zoro was the better swordsman
3) it doesn't matter since Kunia's sword is one of the 21 legendary blades like Ryuuma's... your arguement is that Zoro has weaker swords, but the same strength as Ryuma and still won, but according to my logic Ryuuma should have won for having a better sword... however, as it turns out, Ryumma's sword and Kunia's sword are quite possibly on similar levels (kinda makes sence when you considering her sword was the only one not to be borken by Mihawk's attack); probably not the same level, but between the combined strength of Kunia's sword and the cursed sword the power comes close enough that it doesn't give Ryuma a clear sword advantage... that in addition to Zoro being the better swordsman still gives him the win

Oh By the way, i absolutly love how you completly IGNORED the rest of my post, specifically the quotes directly from Zoro that indicate that swords DO have strength of their own. care to go back and refute those?
Quote:
I am sorry who had the 320 million bounty?
Who was the Shichibukai?
ok... care to tell me where it is stated, by Oda, that a heavy hitter can NOT have a subordinate stronger than themself. and note, other heavy hitters not doing it is not evidence since as we saw, leaders in high places can be weak and yet have powerful subordinates. i'd like you to show me where it is said that a heavy hitter MUST BE the strongest in his crew. Last i checked, Oda never said it was impossible... hell the fact that he made Spandem the leader of CP9 an utter weakling when he could have made him a powerhouse like Lucchi is practially a way of showing that weaklings can lead power poeple around

Quote:
Sorry Luffy has no water, And Croc could waste him.
Quote:
A Logia is never considered the weakest. Luffy can't touch Crocodile he can't hit a logia and Crocodile could easily drain Luffy.
Ha... a little blood on his knuckles and Luffy is good and ready to horribly kick Croc around... Croc had a tough enough time dealing with normal Luffy, gear 2 Luffy would wreak him

Last edited by Slayerx; 2007-11-23 at 06:57.
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Old 2007-11-23, 06:20   Link #88
shankss
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Look from the bright side : No one was expecting that ending..It was a pretty big shock because we all waiting for a cliche retardy ending like nightmare>oz then
luffy>moria with random gomu gomu no jet storm/gigante gattling/silver rifle wtf
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Old 2007-11-23, 20:46   Link #89
Phenomenal
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Quote:
The battle was turning in their favor, Oz was no longer owning the battle like he did before, and if not for Moria they probably would have beaten Oz
Nope, it stayed the same.

Quote:
Luffy needed plot to save him from Moria... Moria had Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji captured and unconsious. all three of them were at his mercy
Actually Luffy had plot to beat Odz not Moria, LOL. Luffy had plot/chances and more help against Crocodile.

Quote:
1) Franky a Brooke were probably talking about raw power, not overall strength (overall strength is determined by more than just raw power)... brooke specially mentions physcial strength, which does not nessary include other elements like technique, skill, and so forth; other elements that determines a swordsman's OVERALL strength
2) Saying that Zoro and Ryuuma are of the same strength does not make much sence cause in the end Zoro won... even if you say that the swords had no influence in the fight, by your assumption that they are of same strength, the fight should have either ended in a draw, or at the least Zoro would be too worn out to move on to fighting Oz (kinda like how Luffy was so worn out he couldn't even move after his fight with Lucchi)... it's pretty obvious that Zoro was the better swordsman
3) it doesn't matter since Kunia's sword is one of the 21 legendary blades like Ryuuma's... your arguement is that Zoro has weaker swords, but the same strength as Ryuma and still won, but according to my logic Ryuuma should have won for having a better sword... however, as it turns out, Ryumma's sword and Kunia's sword are quite possibly on similar levels (kinda makes sence when you considering her sword was the only one not to be borken by Mihawk's attack); probably not the same level, but between the combined strength of Kunia's sword and the cursed sword the power comes close enough that it doesn't give Ryuma a clear sword advantage... that in addition to Zoro being the better swordsman still gives him the win

Oh By the way, i absolutly love how you completly IGNORED the rest of my post, specifically the quotes directly from Zoro that indicate that swords DO have strength of their own. care to go back and refute those?
No, Franky confirmed that Ryumma and Zoro is the same hence why it was a battle of endurance.

Again, you gave quotes of Zoro talking about the QUALITY of the blade not that it has RAW power of it's own and it shoots magical projectiles.

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ok... care to tell me where it is stated, by Oda, that a heavy hitter can NOT have a subordinate stronger than themself. and note, other heavy hitters not doing it is not evidence since as we saw, leaders in high places can be weak and yet have powerful subordinates. i'd like you to show me where it is said that a heavy hitter MUST BE the strongest in his crew. Last i checked, Oda never said it was impossible... hell the fact that he made Spandem the leader of CP9 an utter weakling when he could have made him a powerhouse like Lucchi is practially a way of showing that weaklings can lead power poeple around
CAUSE OF THE FACT THAT MORIA IS A SHICHIBUKAI!!!! HE HAD THAT BOUNTY AND STATUS BEFORE HE HAD ODZ! That's why.

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Ha... a little blood on his knuckles and Luffy is good and ready to horribly kick Croc around... Croc had a tough enough time dealing with normal Luffy, gear 2 Luffy would wreak him
Crocodile would drain Luffy dry!
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Old 2007-11-23, 23:30   Link #90
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Yes Shanks would have asked about that HUGE sword that looks like a cross on his back. Shanks has seen it and fought it before.
Still, you don't know. Whether Shanks had his both arms when Mihawk had that sword is still unknown. Didn't you say sword doesn't matter for the greatest swordman, why does it matter now?

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A Logia is never considered the weakest. Luffy can't touch Crocodile he can't hit a logia and Crocodile could easily drain Luffy.
Luffy beat Crocodile by hitting him. And, it doesn't matter whether he is Logia or not, with a strong weapon he can easily receive damage. Didn't Luffy get fingered by Lucci and get screwed by Crocodile, when that wasn't the case for normal attacks? If the hit is strong, the type of power may not save the user. For Logia users, that threshold may be higher but it does not seem to be infinite.
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Old 2007-11-24, 06:13   Link #91
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Nope, it stayed the same.
no it wasn't... the fight was changing course, the strawhats were finding ways to move on the offesive and damage Oz... however, once Moria started supporting Oz, the battle changed in that the strawhats were now on a nearly full defensive. Oz being able to stretch added more speed and power to his attacks causeing the strawhats to concetrate more on keeping alive... any attempts that they made at offence resulted in them getting KO'd by Oz and Moria. and unlike the fight when it was just Oz fighting, the strawhats didn't get back up

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Actually Luffy had plot to beat Odz not Moria, LOL. Luffy had plot/chances and more help against Crocodile.
Once again... Moria had managed to capture Luffy, Sanji an Zoro... he took their shadows thus rendering them unconsious... at that point he could have killed them at any time; much like how Croc could have finished off Luffy had he bothered to make sure he finsihed the job instead of walking away prematurely

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No, Franky confirmed that Ryumma and Zoro is the same hence why it was a battle of endurance.
hey, guess what, "endurance" is ANOTHER factor in determining a swordsman's overall strength... that fact that Zoro won because of higher endurance, and that all other factors were the same, is basically saying he was the stronger swordsman... their are many factors that go into determining a swordsman's OVERALL strength... Physical strength, what Franky and Brooke were talking about, is just one factor... other factors are intellgence, skill, technic, endurance, speed and so forth

Also you seemed to ignore the part of my post that pointed out that even IF they were the same strength, it wouldn't support your argument because their may not be a strong difference in the strength of the swords that Ryuma and Zoro were using... both Ryuma's sword and Kunia's sword are from the 21 legendary swords, and Zoro is fighting not only with Kunia's sword, but with also with his cursed sword, practilly combining their might
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Again, you gave quotes of Zoro talking about the QUALITY of the blade not that it has RAW power of it's own and it shoots magical projectiles.
once again... Zoro called Ryumma's sword "STRONG", how is that NOT talking about the strength of the sword? he even used the word STRONG.
The quality of the blade is what determines it's strength... a sword that is sharper, heavier, made out of better material, made with better skill and so forth is STRONGER than a sword that is duller, lighter, made of poor material, and made with less skilled hands... if two swordsman of ABSOLUTLY equal strength were to clash, so equal that they literally trade blow for blow, the swordsman with the better quality sword will win out, because not only will he be able to use more power than the other swordsman, but the other swordsman's sword will be quicker to break...

think about it... an exteme example would be a sword made of Diamond and a sword made of steel... which can cut through stell more easily? the diamond since it is made of harder material; both swords in the hands of a good swordsman can cut through steel, but it it is much easier for the diamond sword... and if cutting through steel is easy for the diamond sword that means the diamond sword can go even furthar... the swordsman, using the steel sword mihgt find it impossible to cut through diamond no matter how hard he tries, but by using the same effort he did with the steel sword, the diamond sword would be able to cut through the diamond... that's just an exteme example, but it does illustrate the difference a sword can make
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CAUSE OF THE FACT THAT MORIA IS A SHICHIBUKAI!!!! HE HAD THAT BOUNTY AND STATUS BEFORE HE HAD ODZ! That's why.
ok, tell me where it is stated that a Shichibukai can't have a subrodinate stronger then himself.

and you seem to be loosing track of the arguements... me pointing out that Moria is alloud to have a subordinate stronger then himself came off of your claim that a captain should NEVER have a subordinate stronger then himself... nothing more

as for how Moria gained his status as a shichibukai and proved that he is one... i pointed that out much eariler in the thread WITHOUT mentioning Oz

I'll repeat from before
-Ability to deliver an instant KO to someone worth ATLEAST 80 million bounty; very high possibility he can do it to someone of much higher bounty aswell
-Able to create undying zombies that are far tougher then they were when they were alive
-Having the absolute loyalty of said zombies
-A technic that allows him block attacks with him needing to lift a finger
-Ability to dodge attacks by switching places with his shadow
-using the zombies that he created with his power, and using his instant KO move, he managed to KO Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji without much effort (480 million bounty), and was in perfect position to kill all three of them; a feat only comparable to Crocodile

and your only method for refuting all that was the point that Moria got beaten in a few panels, thus rendering all my points moot... however that is a ridiculous point in that how Moria got beaten does not at all render those points moot since those are all FACTS about Moria... these were the kind of facts that the world' gov't were considering when they made Moria a shichibukai... that the minions created by Moria's power and in service to Moria were capable of capturing high profile targets; that Moria's abilities make it easy for him to instantly KO high profile fighters; that Moria's powers make him difficult to defeat for anyone below the 300 million mark... What's moot, is bringing up his defeat as evidence as to why Moria isn't a shichibukai... cause when it comes down to it, he was beaten by nightmare Luffy. Luffy alone had a bounty close to that of Moria, and thus, in theory was pretty close to Moria's level... however, Nightmare Luffy was several times stronger than Moria, his strength was off the charts... where as Luffy was about 300 million, nightmare Luffy might have been more like 600-900million. with THAT kind of power, Moria, and most other high profile characters would probably get KO'd rather quickly

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Crocodile would drain Luffy dry!
Crocodile didn't dry him up in his third fight with Luffy, and he wouldn't dry him up in any futre fight.
To dry up Luffy he has to be able to grab hold of Luffy, but gear 2 Luffy has incredible speed that croc could even hope to match
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Old 2007-11-24, 12:40   Link #92
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I don't know why some people keep praising Crocodile.

He was awesome on Alabasta arc but when we compare him to current level charecters he simply fails.

Enel would utterly destroyed Croc in raw power. Infact I think Enel was strongest fighter yet, he was defeated ONLY because Luffy was ONLY person in world with Rubber body what is immune to electrecity attacks of Enel.

Crocodile was SLOW, Crocodile was vulnerable to ANY attack what is affected by liquics; water,blood,wine,spit you name it.

CURRENT Luffy with 3 Gears would DESTROY,ANNIHALTE AND RAPE Crocodile. Croc is just too slow to fight vs Gear second Luffy.

I don't know why Phenomenom is so dissapointed to Gecko Moria. I think he was pretty damn impressive. He used his devil fruit power to create entire armys, super powerful zombies 101% loyal to him because they were mere extension of his own power.

Moria powered OZ has been MOST powerful fighter yet to seen (With exceptions Logia chars, Croc could be phrased only semi-logia because any liquid neutralizes his logia powers reducing him to average fighter).
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Old 2007-11-24, 23:02   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Still, you don't know. Whether Shanks had his both arms when Mihawk had that sword is still unknown. Didn't you say sword doesn't matter for the greatest swordman, why does it matter now?
Mihakw always had that sword it is obvious fact. He entered One piece with it.

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Luffy beat Crocodile by hitting him. And, it doesn't matter whether he is Logia or not, with a strong weapon he can easily receive damage. Didn't Luffy get fingered by Lucci and get screwed by Crocodile, when that wasn't the case for normal attacks? If the hit is strong, the type of power may not save the user. For Logia users, that threshold may be higher but it does not seem to be infinite.
Luffy never beat Crocodile by just hitting him. Luffy didn't eve nbeat Crocodile by himself, he had help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
no it wasn't... the fight was changing course, the strawhats were finding ways to move on the offesive and damage Oz... however, once Moria started supporting Oz, the battle changed in that the strawhats were now on a nearly full defensive. Oz being able to stretch added more speed and power to his attacks causeing the strawhats to concetrate more on keeping alive... any attempts that they made at offence resulted in them getting KO'd by Oz and Moria. and unlike the fight when it was just Oz fighting, the strawhats didn't get back up
The SH NEVER damaged Odz, hell their best chance t obeat was was with Moria when Ussop threw the bag of salt. The fight never changed and it was a waste.

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Once again... Moria had managed to capture Luffy, Sanji an Zoro... he took their shadows thus rendering them unconsious... at that point he could have killed them at any time; much like how Croc could have finished off Luffy had he bothered to make sure he finsihed the job instead of walking away prematurely
Yet Crocodile was able t overcome adversity where Moria's weak *** fainted.

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hey, guess what, "endurance" is ANOTHER factor in determining a swordsman's overall strength... that fact that Zoro won because of higher endurance, and that all other factors were the same, is basically saying he was the stronger swordsman... their are many factors that go into determining a swordsman's OVERALL strength... Physical strength, what Franky and Brooke were talking about, is just one factor... other factors are intellgence, skill, technic, endurance, speed and so forth

Also you seemed to ignore the part of my post that pointed out that even IF they were the same strength, it wouldn't support your argument because their may not be a strong difference in the strength of the swords that Ryuma and Zoro were using... both Ryuma's sword and Kunia's sword are from the 21 legendary swords, and Zoro is fighting not only with Kunia's sword, but with also with his cursed sword, practilly combining their might
No, the battle was qucik because both warriors were th same and it was a matter of endurance and in the end BOTH warriors hit each other at the same time but Zoro defeated the man with the STRONGER sword.

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once again... Zoro called Ryumma's sword "STRONG", how is that NOT talking about the strength of the sword? he even used the word STRONG.
The quality of the blade is what determines it's strength... a sword that is sharper, heavier, made out of better material, made with better skill and so forth is STRONGER than a sword that is duller, lighter, made of poor material, and made with less skilled hands... if two swordsman of ABSOLUTLY equal strength were to clash, so equal that they literally trade blow for blow, the swordsman with the better quality sword will win out, because not only will he be able to use more power than the other swordsman, but the other swordsman's sword will be quicker to break...

think about it... an exteme example would be a sword made of Diamond and a sword made of steel... which can cut through stell more easily? the diamond since it is made of harder material; both swords in the hands of a good swordsman can cut through steel, but it it is much easier for the diamond sword... and if cutting through steel is easy for the diamond sword that means the diamond sword can go even furthar... the swordsman, using the steel sword mihgt find it impossible to cut through diamond no matter how hard he tries, but by using the same effort he did with the steel sword, the diamond sword would be able to cut through the diamond... that's just an exteme example, but it does illustrate the difference a sword can make
You just added to what I was talking about.
Zoro was talking about the quality of the sword it's sharpness.
Again a skilled swordsman can have a weaker sword than a skilled swordsman with a stronger sword and STILL be better. As you saw with Zoro and Ryumma.

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ok, tell me where it is stated that a Shichibukai can't have a subrodinate stronger then himself.

and you seem to be loosing track of the arguements... me pointing out that Moria is alloud to have a subordinate stronger then himself came off of your claim that a captain should NEVER have a subordinate stronger then himself... nothing more

as for how Moria gained his status as a shichibukai and proved that he is one... i pointed that out much eariler in the thread WITHOUT mentioning Oz

I'll repeat from before
-Ability to deliver an instant KO to someone worth ATLEAST 80 million bounty; very high possibility he can do it to someone of much higher bounty aswell
-Able to create undying zombies that are far tougher then they were when they were alive
-Having the absolute loyalty of said zombies
-A technic that allows him block attacks with him needing to lift a finger
-Ability to dodge attacks by switching places with his shadow
-using the zombies that he created with his power, and using his instant KO move, he managed to KO Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji without much effort (480 million bounty), and was in perfect position to kill all three of them; a feat only comparable to Crocodile

and your only method for refuting all that was the point that Moria got beaten in a few panels, thus rendering all my points moot... however that is a ridiculous point in that how Moria got beaten does not at all render those points moot since those are all FACTS about Moria... these were the kind of facts that the world' gov't were considering when they made Moria a shichibukai... that the minions created by Moria's power and in service to Moria were capable of capturing high profile targets; that Moria's abilities make it easy for him to instantly KO high profile fighters; that Moria's powers make him difficult to defeat for anyone below the 300 million mark... What's moot, is bringing up his defeat as evidence as to why Moria isn't a shichibukai... cause when it comes down to it, he was beaten by nightmare Luffy. Luffy alone had a bounty close to that of Moria, and thus, in theory was pretty close to Moria's level... however, Nightmare Luffy was several times stronger than Moria, his strength was off the charts... where as Luffy was about 300 million, nightmare Luffy might have been more like 600-900million. with THAT kind of power, Moria, and most other high profile characters would probably get KO'd rather quickly
LOL No! Crocodile SET the bar for the Shichibukai, none of his subordinates was stronger than him. Yet Moria gets slept in a few panels controlling a beast that he did NOT have in the past? You making a list of all Moria's abilities is uselss because in that entire arc it did him no good, in the end he is counting sheep. A Shichibukai, with a 320 millionm bounty (higher than Luffy's) doesn't even put up a fight. Your getting away from the subject when I said from the gate that this is all BAD WRITING!

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Crocodile didn't dry him up in his third fight with Luffy,
That is what we call bad writing.
Oda has to kill Croco some way but it was limiting Croc in order to get rid of him.
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Old 2007-11-25, 00:43   Link #94
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Luffy never beat Crocodile by just hitting him. Luffy didn't eve nbeat Crocodile by himself, he had help.
Luffy also didn't beat Lucci by himself. He got help along the way, be it emotional or otherwise. Anyway, if we turn back to the case of Crocodile, at the end, it was Crocodile's "utter" loss (I hope you know the meaning of that), and he lost a typical beating fight, his sand, sand defense, poison, couldn't stop Luffy's attacks. In other words, Luffy overpowered Crocodile at that point, at his level at that time. And, right now, at Gear 2 and Gear 3, he is way beyond that. Crocodile of that time wouldn't stand a chance against the current Luffy.

And, by the way, can Mihawk beat Crocodile? After all, if you assume Luffy's attacks, especially at Gear 2 and 3, wouldn't work against Crocodile's sand, you wouldn't expect swords working against him, even if they are used by the greatest swordsman. I wonder how you will work your way out of this one...
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Old 2007-11-25, 02:03   Link #95
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Wow, so now it the bad writing's fault, then WHY are you still here reading OP?

You take what the author gave you, in this case Oda, unless Oda admit he F#$ed-up on the story, these story element stay facts within the story.

Luffy beat Croc by finding weakness to his power, Croc made the mistake of not killing Luffy during their first encounter seald his fate as Luffy found out about his weakness, as such once Luffy is able to beat the shit out of Croc with his bloodied fists, there is no reason why he can't do it again. Remeber what that sniper from Blackbeard's crew said during Ace and BB's duel? He mentioned how he always though DF users are too relient on their power that once you find the weakness to their power they become vulnerable ane easily beatable. Croc is exactly the type of DF user he was talking about. Unlike Luffy, Ace, and every member of CP9, Croc is not a good fighter without his DF power. Granted, he might have more mastery over his power compare to most of other DF users we've seen so far, but once that ability is neutralized he can't do anything but resolve to cheating [Poison]. There is no reason why Luffy can't give Croc the same beating with two bloodied fist and pound him to oblivion if they meet again now he's faster and stronger and with the ability to go in Gear2 and Gear3.

Back to Moria and Oz, this fight is different. Luffy only beat Moria because he was drugged up with all the shadows, if the fight were to happen again, Luffy's not going to have Nightmare Luffy power and it'll be a whole new fight.


Most importantly, you are one of those people that fell into the the Bounty trap set up by Oda. Bounty is not equal to strength through it can be an indicator for it. It is mainly a reflection on how WG perceive the danger a person poses. based on SBS it is clear that even with BW, Croc's perceive threat level in only about half that of Moria [SBS stated that if WG knows about BW, Croc's Bounty would be in 160 million range]. With 80 millions by himself, the rest of BW post roughly as much a threat as Croc at 80 millions.

Now using Phenomenol's logic:

If Moria is like you say, a sheep, that can't hold candle to Croc, that means Moria is at most worth only 80 million by himself, therefore, it means his Zombie are considered by WG to pose MUCH BIGGER DANGER to the world at 240 millions, or 3 times what BW poises with all their agents and thousands of members, This in turn IMPLIES that Moria's subordinates are considered stronger than Moria himself, coupled with the fact the Oda made Spandem and his dad leaders of their respective Cipher Pol, shows that you don't have to be strong to be in charge of a unit.


Now I agree Moria might not be the heavy hitter that some people thinks, I for one didn't think Moria is that strong coming into the arc and is more relient to his power that ones with actual fighting skill. But after seeing that he's able to doge Luffy's attack and was unharmed after Luffy first found him, I certainly to think he is stronger than Croc, who actually took a beating until he decide to turn his body into sand as show the full scope of the DF power, while Moria have card up his sleeve.

The fact that also stands is that with the fight being that one-sided and Luffy has the benefit of the one-time power up, Moria is still a mystery to us, we still don't know Moria's personal fighting power, We don't knwo the full extend of his shadow power, and we still can't figure out the weakness of his DF power coupled with the fact that he is able to kinap Luffy, Sanji and Zoro with eaze and render them unconcious all the while create rough equals of all three speaks volume itself and made him very worthy of being a shikibukai.

Last thing, Luffy is already at shikibukai's level in the eye of WG simply by what Kuma has stated, WG is afraid of Luffy deafeating another Shikibukai, if Luffy is not at the smae level as them why would the WG fear another would fall before Luffy. With that being said, Rob Lucchi is definitely considered by WG as a Shikibukai-level weapon at their disposal. Remeber, CP9 is consider to be Marines' last line of defense of thier HQ and their other 'Ace in the hole' along with Buster Call, and current CP9 was said to be the strongest incarnation of the unit and Rob Lucchi himself is consider an icon/legend and the strongest amoung the strongest by the Marines. By saying that Luffy is not at their level is simply blind.
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Old 2007-11-25, 08:36   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Wow, so now it the bad writing's fault, then WHY are you still here reading OP?

You take what the author gave you, in this case Oda, unless Oda admit he F#$ed-up on the story, these story element stay facts within the story.

Luffy beat Croc by finding weakness to his power, Croc made the mistake of not killing Luffy during their first encounter seald his fate as Luffy found out about his weakness, as such once Luffy is able to beat the shit out of Croc with his bloodied fists, there is no reason why he can't do it again. Remeber what that sniper from Blackbeard's crew said during Ace and BB's duel? He mentioned how he always though DF users are too relient on their power that once you find the weakness to their power they become vulnerable ane easily beatable. Croc is exactly the type of DF user he was talking about. Unlike Luffy, Ace, and every member of CP9, Croc is not a good fighter without his DF power. Granted, he might have more mastery over his power compare to most of other DF users we've seen so far, but once that ability is neutralized he can't do anything but resolve to cheating [Poison]. There is no reason why Luffy can't give Croc the same beating with two bloodied fist and pound him to oblivion if they meet again now he's faster and stronger and with the ability to go in Gear2 and Gear3.

Back to Moria and Oz, this fight is different. Luffy only beat Moria because he was drugged up with all the shadows, if the fight were to happen again, Luffy's not going to have Nightmare Luffy power and it'll be a whole new fight.


Most importantly, you are one of those people that fell into the the Bounty trap set up by Oda. Bounty is not equal to strength through it can be an indicator for it. It is mainly a reflection on how WG perceive the danger a person poses. based on SBS it is clear that even with BW, Croc's perceive threat level in only about half that of Moria [SBS stated that if WG knows about BW, Croc's Bounty would be in 160 million range]. With 80 millions by himself, the rest of BW post roughly as much a threat as Croc at 80 millions.

Now using Phenomenol's logic:

If Moria is like you say, a sheep, that can't hold candle to Croc, that means Moria is at most worth only 80 million by himself, therefore, it means his Zombie are considered by WG to pose MUCH BIGGER DANGER to the world at 240 millions, or 3 times what BW poises with all their agents and thousands of members, This in turn IMPLIES that Moria's subordinates are considered stronger than Moria himself, coupled with the fact the Oda made Spandem and his dad leaders of their respective Cipher Pol, shows that you don't have to be strong to be in charge of a unit.


Now I agree Moria might not be the heavy hitter that some people thinks, I for one didn't think Moria is that strong coming into the arc and is more relient to his power that ones with actual fighting skill. But after seeing that he's able to doge Luffy's attack and was unharmed after Luffy first found him, I certainly to think he is stronger than Croc, who actually took a beating until he decide to turn his body into sand as show the full scope of the DF power, while Moria have card up his sleeve.

The fact that also stands is that with the fight being that one-sided and Luffy has the benefit of the one-time power up, Moria is still a mystery to us, we still don't know Moria's personal fighting power, We don't knwo the full extend of his shadow power, and we still can't figure out the weakness of his DF power coupled with the fact that he is able to kinap Luffy, Sanji and Zoro with eaze and render them unconcious all the while create rough equals of all three speaks volume itself and made him very worthy of being a shikibukai.

Last thing, Luffy is already at shikibukai's level in the eye of WG simply by what Kuma has stated, WG is afraid of Luffy deafeating another Shikibukai, if Luffy is not at the smae level as them why would the WG fear another would fall before Luffy. With that being said, Rob Lucchi is definitely considered by WG as a Shikibukai-level weapon at their disposal. Remeber, CP9 is consider to be Marines' last line of defense of thier HQ and their other 'Ace in the hole' along with Buster Call, and current CP9 was said to be the strongest incarnation of the unit and Rob Lucchi himself is consider an icon/legend and the strongest amoung the strongest by the Marines. By saying that Luffy is not at their level is simply blind.

Fully agreed.According to him shichibukai is a god,has **000000 bounty,cant be beaten,has uber sword.blah balh..all baseless crap theories..Just how can you think that crocodile can beat Luffy with what he is now.crocodile wont even able to see it coming.A glass of water and he is dead..It is meaningless to give "logia cant be damaged lawl you use item lol" as a proof

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Old 2007-11-25, 09:11   Link #97
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Phenomenal you are forgetting something really important about Croc. He isn't made of sand. He has to react and turn into sand in order to dodge a blow. Luffy in gear 2 would just appear behind him and cave his skull before he has a chance to change into sand. It really wouldn't even be a contest, it's kinda weak of you to even still be trying to say Croc would even scratch the present day Luffy. It's pretty silly actually. Sorry.
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Old 2007-11-25, 14:40   Link #98
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Good chapter, Nightmare Luffy is too cool. Now to see the whole outcome of this since it does seems that Luffy defeated Moria. Kuma was still on the island right? because it was never shown if he left or stayed so he could have see Moria be defeated and even tell Luffy about Ace and Blackbeard
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Old 2007-11-25, 20:30   Link #99
Phenomenal
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Luffy also didn't beat Lucci by himself. He got help along the way, be it emotional or otherwise. Anyway, if we turn back to the case of Crocodile, at the end, it was Crocodile's "utter" loss (I hope you know the meaning of that), and he lost a typical beating fight, his sand, sand defense, poison, couldn't stop Luffy's attacks. In other words, Luffy overpowered Crocodile at that point, at his level at that time. And, right now, at Gear 2 and Gear 3, he is way beyond that. Crocodile of that time wouldn't stand a chance against the current Luffy.

And, by the way, can Mihawk beat Crocodile? After all, if you assume Luffy's attacks, especially at Gear 2 and 3, wouldn't work against Crocodile's sand, you wouldn't expect swords working against him, even if they are used by the greatest swordsman. I wonder how you will work your way out of this one...

NOONE IN ONE PIECE CAN HARM A LOGIA (besides Blackbeard/Seastone)so how the hell is a Gear 2 Luffy going to hurt Crocodile when he could easily drain him dry?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker
Wow, so now it the bad writing's fault, then WHY are you still here reading OP? You take what the author gave you, in this case Oda, unless Oda admit he F#$ed-up on the story, these story element stay facts within the story.
Yeah, and Oda let a great character like Moria EASILY GET PWNED....IN ODZ. That's bad writing.

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Luffy beat Croc by finding weakness to his power, Croc made the mistake of not killing Luffy during their first encounter seald his fate as Luffy found out about his weakness, as such once Luffy is able to beat the shit out of Croc with his bloodied fists, there is no reason why he can't do it again. Remeber what that sniper from Blackbeard's crew said during Ace and BB's duel? He mentioned how he always though DF users are too relient on their power that once you find the weakness to their power they become vulnerable ane easily beatable. Croc is exactly the type of DF user he was talking about. Unlike Luffy, Ace, and every member of CP9, Croc is not a good fighter without his DF power. Granted, he might have more mastery over his power compare to most of other DF users we've seen so far, but once that ability is neutralized he can't do anything but resolve to cheating [Poison]. There is no reason why Luffy can't give Croc the same beating with two bloodied fist and pound him to oblivion if they meet again now he's faster and stronger and with the ability to go in Gear2 and Gear3.
You forget about Crocodile's powers to overcome such weakness by draining his opponents dry!Hmmmm...wonder why Croco didn't use that ability in the last fight? Oh could it be because it was BAD WRITING and Oda had to get rid of "Croc somehow.

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Back to Moria and Oz, this fight is different. Luffy only beat Moria because he was drugged up with all the shadows, if the fight were to happen again, Luffy's not going to have Nightmare Luffy power and it'll be a whole new fight.
And? That power-up wasn't anything special??? All it did was increae Luffy's physical abilities and Moria got wasted EASILY.

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Now using Phenomenol's logic:

If Moria is like you say, a sheep, that can't hold candle to Croc, that means Moria is at most worth only 80 million by himself, therefore, it means his Zombie are considered by WG to pose MUCH BIGGER DANGER to the world at 240 millions, or 3 times what BW poises with all their agents and thousands of members, This in turn IMPLIES that Moria's subordinates are considered stronger than Moria himself, coupled with the fact the Oda made Spandem and his dad leaders of their respective Cipher Pol, shows that you don't have to be strong to be in charge of a unit.
LOL! That isn't my logic it's yours.

Moria is not a Logia, Crocodile is! Crocodile has superior abilities to moria's it's obvious.

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Now I agree Moria might not be the heavy hitter that some people thinks, I for one didn't think Moria is that strong coming into the arc and is more relient to his power that ones with actual fighting skill. But after seeing that he's able to doge Luffy's attack and was unharmed after Luffy first found him, I certainly to think he is stronger than Croc, who actually took a beating until he decide to turn his body into sand as show the full scope of the DF power, while Moria have card up his sleeve.

The fact that also stands is that with the fight being that one-sided and Luffy has the benefit of the one-time power up, Moria is still a mystery to us, we still don't know Moria's personal fighting power, We don't knwo the full extend of his shadow power, and we still can't figure out the weakness of his DF power coupled with the fact that he is able to kinap Luffy, Sanji and Zoro with eaze and render them unconcious all the while create rough equals of all three speaks volume itself and made him very worthy of being a shikibukai.

Last thing, Luffy is already at shikibukai's level in the eye of WG simply by what Kuma has stated, WG is afraid of Luffy deafeating another Shikibukai, if Luffy is not at the smae level as them why would the WG fear another would fall before Luffy. With that being said, Rob Lucchi is definitely considered by WG as a Shikibukai-level weapon at their disposal. Remeber, CP9 is consider to be Marines' last line of defense of thier HQ and their other 'Ace in the hole' along with Buster Call, and current CP9 was said to be the strongest incarnation of the unit and Rob Lucchi himself is consider an icon/legend and the strongest amoung the strongest by the Marines. By saying that Luffy is not at their level is simply blind.
Moria never FOUGHT ANYONE head-to-HEAD himself he always ran or had his weak *** minions to do it. Moria was waeak from everything that was shown so far.

Sorry, Luffy ain't Shichibukai level, He can't beat Crocodile (a Logia) head up, and if you wanna give Luffy situations stating things like "oh he will have bloody knuckles like before" I can easily say Croco can fight Luffy in the desert and Kill luffy easily. Or how about Crocodlie DRAIN Luffy to death!!!!
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Old 2007-11-25, 21:23   Link #100
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
NOONE IN ONE PIECE CAN HARM A LOGIA (besides Blackbeard/Seastone)so how the hell is a Gear 2 Luffy going to hurt Crocodile when he could easily drain him dry?
You haven't answered the Mihawk part. According to your reasoning, Mihawk should also be incapable of beating Crocodile - as swords would not harm Logia, meaning he is weaker than Crocodile. Interesting, isn't it?
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