AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > One Piece

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-11-25, 23:40   Link #101
TooPurePureBoy
Socially Inept
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
Quote:
NOONE IN ONE PIECE CAN HARM A LOGIA (besides Blackbeard/Seastone)so how the hell is a Gear 2 Luffy going to hurt Crocodile when he could easily drain him dry?
Simple, he's easily faster now than Croc's reaction time. Like I said he's just be too fast for Croc to handle and his jet punches to his face before he has a chance to change into sand or even better a bloody knuckle jet piston punch to the face would annihilate him in one blow. It wouldn't be a contest.
__________________
"Do what I do in every friendship and relationship, give 5%" - Ron Bennington
TooPurePureBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 02:02   Link #102
Phenomenal
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Send a message via AIM to Phenomenal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
You haven't answered the Mihawk part. According to your reasoning, Mihawk should also be incapable of beating Crocodile - as swords would not harm Logia, meaning he is weaker than Crocodile. Interesting, isn't it?
We haven't seen Mihawk fight! It would be unfair to say that he is weaker than Crocodile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine-Tails-Nin
Simple, he's easily faster now than Croc's reaction time. Like I said he's just be too fast for Croc to handle and his jet punches to his face before he has a chance to change into sand or even better a bloody knuckle jet piston punch to the face would annihilate him in one blow. It wouldn't be a contest.
Luffy's punches are not faster than the speed of thought!
What is stopping a pissed off crocodile from just draining Luffy dry!
Phenomenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 07:48   Link #103
TooPurePureBoy
Socially Inept
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
Quote:
Luffy's punches are not faster than the speed of thought!
Did you watch the fights so far that he's used Gear 2 ? He can be infront of you smack-talking and then be behind you before you have a chance to react. Then his jet-punches are instant.
__________________
"Do what I do in every friendship and relationship, give 5%" - Ron Bennington
TooPurePureBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 09:26   Link #104
Fyria
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
Luffy's punches are not faster than the speed of thought!
What is stopping a pissed off crocodile from just draining Luffy dry!
You often use that draining argument, while I agree its deadly you require physical contact with your target with your hand to be able drain.

If Luffy uses Gear second or Rokushiki user fights vs Croc he would have very serious problems to grab them. First Luffy only needs to cover his fists with some liquid, blood,water,spit whatever to nullify crocs sand form. Also he uses his stretching powers combined with high power Jet attacks to deal massive amount of damage to Crocodile.

Also because Luffy uses his stretching limbs he can fight Croc at long range. Croc can only grab his arms/legs what are moving very fast in Gear 2.

Also you often use argument that Luffy didn't beat Croc without help on third match. This isn't true, since Luffy received anti-venom AFTER he had pushed unconcius Croc through bedrock, please watch episode 129 Robins flashback.

And don't know what ppl see about Croc since Enel was multiple times stronger and powerful than Croc.
Fyria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 10:31   Link #105
Slayerx
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
The SH NEVER damaged Odz, hell their best chance t obeat was was with Moria when Ussop threw the bag of salt. The fight never changed and it was a waste.
and the bag of salt would have worked...
but it doesn't change the fact that at the very least, the fight between the strawhats and Oz was rather even, until Moria stepped in... once Moria steped in the battle turned severly against the strawhats has the Oz's attacks had them more on the run and were harder to avoid

Quote:
No, the battle was qucik because both warriors were th same and it was a matter of endurance and in the end BOTH warriors hit each other at the same time but Zoro defeated the man with the STRONGER sword.
:sigh:
did i not JUST say, that endurance is PART of what determines how strong a character is... Even if Zoro and Ryumma were the same in EVERY other aspect, if one of them has higher endurance, then that fighter is actually the stronger one as his higher endunrance will grant him victory in every fight between the two of them

not to mention how i painfully pointed out that Brooke and Franky were talking about just ONE aspect that determines a swordsman strength and NEVER mentioned anything like Skill, technique, endurance and so forth... saying they have the same physical strength ONLY speaks of raw strength and nothing else... like for instance, during the fight, Zoro mentioned that Ryumma was using a sword breaking technique; a skill like that could end up breaking Zoro's swords and give Ryumma the victory

Another thing i just pointed out was that, since Zoro fights with two high quality swords, one of which is one of the 21 legendary swords like Ryumma's sword, the strength of thier swords may not have been very different.

Quote:
You just added to what I was talking about.
Zoro was talking about the quality of the sword it's sharpness.
Again a skilled swordsman can have a weaker sword than a skilled swordsman with a stronger sword and STILL be better. As you saw with Zoro and Ryumma.
And sharpness is one of the things that determines a swordsman's strength...
And ofcourse it a swordsman with a weaker sword can still win, so long as the sworsman them self is skill enough and powerful enough to overcome the other swordsman's advantage... which was the case of Ryumma vs Zoro... in terms of OVERALL ability, not just physical strength, Zoro was actually the better swordsman

Quote:
LOL No! Crocodile SET the bar for the Shichibukai, none of his subordinates was stronger than him. Yet Moria gets slept in a few panels controlling a beast that he did NOT have in the past? You making a list of all Moria's abilities is uselss because in that entire arc it did him no good, in the end he is counting sheep. A Shichibukai, with a 320 millionm bounty (higher than Luffy's) doesn't even put up a fight. Your getting away from the subject when I said from the gate that this is all BAD WRITING!
Quote:
Yeah, and Oda let a great character like Moria EASILY GET PWNED....IN ODZ. That's bad writing.
Quote:
And? That power-up wasn't anything special??? All it did was increae Luffy's physical abilities and Moria got wasted EASILY.
I see... so becoming MANY times stronger and faster is nothing special?
Seriously, if nightmare Luffy had a bounty it could have very well been a bounty that ranged up to something like 600 million or maybe tripled to 900 million...
Hell, for all we know for sure, Nightmare Luffy's power could have been equal to that of Whitebeard...
Moria didn't get beat by a simple 300 million Luffy, but Nightmare Luffy who was MANY times more powerful than little 300 million Luffy

It is not bad writing... it doesn't matter how Moria faired in a fight agianst nightmare Luffy. you saying Moria MUST have a good one-on-one fight to prove he was a shichibukai is YOU talking, NOT Oda... Oda has already given us the reasons Moria was a shichibukai, with the reasons i listed before (without mentioning OZ i'll add). Even a shichibukai, when faced with an oppenent far stronger them himself (nightmare Luffy, not normal Luffy), can loose quickly in a fight. Shichubkai's are not unbeatable and unstoppable; if they were they would be the one's ruling the new world, not the 4 emperors

and again, there is NOTHING in one piece, that states that a high profile character can NEVER have a subordinate stronger then himself... jsut because no other characters have subordinates stronger then themself is not proof that i can NEVER happen... the ONLY reasonn you don't see it, is because normally in a pirate crew, if the Subordinate was stronger, you would probably have sever loyalty issues; he might take over the crew and overthrow the captain; That's the ONLY reason you don't see it with other pirates...Moria's has a UNIQUE power to create a subordinate that is stronger then himself, and yet maintain 100% loyal, and thus avoid the ONLY danger of having a subrodinate stronger then himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
We haven't seen Mihawk fight! It would be unfair to say that he is weaker than Crocodile.
Now that's hilarious because my reply to that is...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
NOONE IN ONE PIECE CAN HARM A LOGIA
Quote:
What is stopping a pissed off crocodile from just draining Luffy dry
your own damn words... I mean, If it's possible for Mihawk to beat Croc, then why not Luffy (if it's possible for Mihawk, then it's not Impossible for Luffy)... and if Croc can suck Luffy dry, why can't he do the same to Mihawk; you seem to be defeating your own arguements... and that's all i have to say to that.
gotta love it when you contradict yourself

Quote:
Sorry, Luffy ain't Shichibukai level, He can't beat Crocodile (a Logia) head up, and if you wanna give Luffy situations stating things like "oh he will have bloody knuckles like before" I can easily say Croco can fight Luffy in the desert and Kill luffy easily. Or how about Crocodlie DRAIN Luffy to death!!!!
Quote:
Luffy's punches are not faster than the speed of thought!
What is stopping a pissed off crocodile from just draining Luffy dry!
how about the simple fact that Croc actually has to grab HOLD of Luffy... Gear 2 Luffy would run circles around Croc and he would have no hope of catching Luffy. Even if he grabbed Luffy, it takes more than a split second to drain Luffy, and that Split Second is all Luffy needs to give Croc a Jet Pistol to the face... And all Luffy needs to make contact with Croc is something like Blood, or even saliva which he has plenty of

And are you saying that Croc needs to be out in the desert, where he has home field advantage to win? Why, and here i thought that the all powerful and unbeatable crocodile could win in any condition

Last edited by Slayerx; 2007-11-26 at 12:58.
Slayerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 12:45   Link #106
Sazelyt
F i n
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
We haven't seen Mihawk fight! It would be unfair to say that he is weaker than Crocodile.
He is a swordsman, who only uses his sword (he has to win with his sword, that is the kind of person he is expected to be), what other information do you need? And, if Luffy's punches that may be as fast as Mihawk's sword or may be even faster (I am saying this, because at Gear 2 he was at the same level as Lucci, who most probably has reached the maximum speed a human can have reached), cannot harm Crocodile, I don't think a sword would do that job.
Sazelyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 15:40   Link #107
Fyria
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
He is a swordsman, who only uses his sword (he has to win with his sword, that is the kind of person he is expected to be), what other information do you need? And, if Luffy's punches that may be as fast as Mihawk's sword or may be even faster (I am saying this, because at Gear 2 he was at the same level as Lucci, who most probably has reached the maximum speed a human can have reached), cannot harm Crocodile, I don't think a sword would do that job.
You are forgoting about Mihawks sword, greatest sword in planet, Giant Black blade made FROM Sea-stone.

Mihawks sword completely ignores enemys Devil fruit powers...its exeptionally powerful vs Logia users.

Also Lucci would definetly destroy Crocodile without impunity. Lucci is goverment agent and he would certainly have knowledge of Suna-Suna abilitys from Dr.Wegapunk or from Devil fruit catalogue, specially because Crocodile is Schichibukai.

Lucci would been informed that liquid nullfies Crocodiles armor and Lucci is very clever and he would greate hypothesis himself quite fast.

I doubt that Crocodile has stamina to withstand Luccis Leopard attacks and Lucci is very very fast unlike Crocodile who is quite slow in his movement.
Fyria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 16:10   Link #108
Slayerx
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyria View Post
You are forgoting about Mihawks sword, greatest sword in planet, Giant Black blade made FROM Sea-stone.
Actually, that's just speculation...
It is true that Mihawk's sword is sword is the strongest in the world but it is not known if the sword is made from Seastone

Also, you are mistaken in what Sazelyt(and myself) is saying...
I think, he's not trying to make an actual arguement for Mihawk being stronger, but is pointing out Phenomonal's double standard and contradiction.

According to Phenomonal, Luffy would loose to Crocodile on the grounds that Luffy can not touch him and that Crocodile and suck him dry, and that Luffy's gear 2 speed advantage means nothing... according to this SAME logic, it can be said that Mihawk can not beat Croc either... however, going against his own logic, Phenomonal is now argueing that it might be possible for Mihawk to be able to beat Croc... based on Phenomnal's current arguements, you can't say it's possible for one person, and impossible for another; especially when you got nothing to gauge the strength difference between the two people in question (other than baseless speculation
Slayerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 16:10   Link #109
Sazelyt
F i n
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyria View Post
You are forgoting about Mihawks sword, greatest sword in planet, Giant Black blade made FROM Sea-stone.
This is the first time I hear that. I don't think it has been mentioned in the manga, otherwise, I could have found that information in Wikipedia. Similarly, I don't think Phenomenol would have forgetten to include that information, if that were to be true. (Till now, I believe the only sword verified to have sea-stone properties was Smoker's sword.)
Sazelyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 16:27   Link #110
Fyria
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Well I think I heard it from before...but anyway I don't think it would be too hard to add some sea-stone etching to sword or its tip... Smoker already have it on his weapon and I am sure that experience fighter like Mihawk had fought Logia users before and he has some sea-stone with him
Fyria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 16:31   Link #111
Sazelyt
F i n
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyria View Post
Well I think I heard it from before...but anyway I don't think it would be too hard to add some sea-stone etching to sword or its tip... Smoker already have it on his weapon and I am sure that experience fighter like Mihawk had fought Logia users before and he has some sea-stone with him
Don't forget, though, that I do think Mihawk can kill Logia users with his sword, regardless of the presence of sea stone. If he would have needed something like sea-stone to beat Logia users, he wouldn't have attained his title.
Sazelyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 20:23   Link #112
Phenomenal
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Send a message via AIM to Phenomenal
Dude's we shall see what happens after this spoiler chapter comes out on Tuesday or Wednesday. We will be able to discuss this matter more then.
Phenomenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 21:24   Link #113
TooPurePureBoy
Socially Inept
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
Quote:
Dude's we shall see what happens after this spoiler chapter comes out on Tuesday or Wednesday. We will be able to discuss this matter more then.
LOL. That has absolutely nothing to do with the arguments presented to you. So are you consenting that you have nothing basically?

There is nothing that will come out about Croc in the next chapter, though I suppose there is a possibility that some new info about DF powers in general could come out in any chapter knowing Oda. Still though, you just totally dodged the question in a blatantly obvious fashion, but you know that don't you?
__________________
"Do what I do in every friendship and relationship, give 5%" - Ron Bennington
TooPurePureBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 21:30   Link #114
ellifeedn
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York
Before the discussion is moved, just what is everyone talking about? How did we get from Moria and Odz being defeated to Mihawk's sword and the Crocodile fight? I already looked through the posts but I don't get it.
ellifeedn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 21:38   Link #115
Sazelyt
F i n
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
Before the discussion is moved, just what is everyone talking about? How did we get from Moria and Odz being defeated to Mihawk's sword and the Crocodile fight? I already looked through the posts but I don't get it.
Comments on Moria being weaker/stronger than Crocodile, both fighting the same person, Luffy, and the result of the fight being used to compare one another, constitute another branching point for the discussion. Don't worry, though, you haven't missed much, anytime a Shichibukai fight topic comes out, Crocodile's name will somehow pop up.
Sazelyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 21:42   Link #116
TooPurePureBoy
Socially Inept
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
Ya sorry guess I just allowed myself to go off topic while trying to put things in proper perspective about what a "certain poster" was claiming in regards to Croc and his abilities.
__________________
"Do what I do in every friendship and relationship, give 5%" - Ron Bennington
TooPurePureBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-26, 22:17   Link #117
Undertaker
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
Just to add something that Slayerx and Sazelyt have already pointed out and provide more cases for the agument.


Ace is a Logia, Whitebeard is not, at least base from what we know so far WB uses Guan-dao, a pole-based weapon in Asia. According to Phenomenol's reasoning WB shouldn't be able to touch nor hurt Ace. Which in turn will make Ace stronger than WB.

This in turn go against Phenomenol's claim that subordinate can't be stronger than the leader.

However, WB currently hold the title of the 'World's Strongest/Most Powerful Man' [depend on where you get your translation.] Which means that WB must be stronger than Ace. In this case, it follow Phenomenol's logic that leader is stonger than subordinates, but than, how do you explain Ace, being a Logia, can be weaker than WB, who as far as we know is not even a DF user?

Let's not even mention Smoker, god know how many people have higher rank than him, which in turn can took over his command as they see fit. Garp for one can order Smoker around and he's not a logia, he's not even a DF user. The manga even implies that Akakiji could used to be under Garp's command before he became Admiral, and we still not sure if other two Admiral are even DF users or not. Not to mention so far there is absolutly no indication that Sengoku, the overall leader/commander of the Marine is a DF user as well.

Face it Phenomenol, your reasonings are simply too flawed. You lack any concrete evidence and facts to back it up which make them baseless assumption. Not to mention that they keep contradicting themselves and the more you try to argue the worst the contradition gets.





Just read your reply to my post, all I have to say is WOW!!! [in a sacastic way if you can't figure it out]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post

Sorry, Luffy ain't Shichibukai level, He can't beat Crocodile (a Logia) head up, and if you wanna give Luffy situations stating things like "oh he will have bloody knuckles like before" I can easily say Croco can fight Luffy in the desert and Kill luffy easily. Or how about Crocodlie DRAIN Luffy to death!!!!
You cosider the bloody knuckles as a situational adavantage and compare it to the desert???!!!!!!

I'm sorry, this is just way too funny, ANYONE CAN HAVE A BLOODY KNUCKLES, all they need is to cut themselves up a little and there they are. The desert is unquestionably a situaitonal adavantage for Croc, he picked Alabasta to take over simply for the reason that it is a desert country, just by fighting there made Croc stonger, on the other hand, by fighting him elsewhere will weaken Croc by defult.

Now unless everywhere in the WORLD IS DESERT, a pair of bloody knuckles isn't the situational adavantage as you stated, they are not even comparable to the desert. Croc can easily get a pair of bloody knuckles too if he so choose, it is not an advantage if both compatitor can acquire it.

As for my reasoning on Croc/BW and Moria/Zombies, keep in mind they are BASED ON YOUR REASONINGS. It shows how easily you own reasoning can be turned against you, with you not able to reason back....

Last edited by Undertaker; 2007-11-26 at 22:55.
Undertaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-27, 18:00   Link #118
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
I am a first time poster that noticed quite a few points of interests in these few pages and decided to add my two cents.

Sorry if this message is a little long, but there are several points of discussion that have popped up that I would like to address, so first the current Chapter(s) and then the rest.

___

Let us start with the glaring difference between Moria and the other Shichibukai: Shichibukai are not allowed to have crews. I am not sure of this, but I seem to remember that DonFlamingo (spelling?) told his former subordinate Bellamy that he needed to be punished for using their former pirate flag because the World Government would hunt down DonFlamingo if they ever saw it in use again. Also, wasn't the reason Crocodile went by the name Mr. 0 because he needed to be covert about his work with the organization Baroque Works so that the World Government would not come after him or stop his plans. The World Government, up until we meet Moria, has always maintained that the Shichibukai can not have a crew of their own. So, why does Moria maintain such a large crew? This idea of having a crew is important to understanding Moria's strength.

So, if this above information is correct, then if a Shichibukai cannot have a crew, but Moria has a localized crew (i.e. all on one boat) of a 1000 or so, does that not mean that Moria's crew is special and approved by the world government? To figure out why they are special or how they can be approved by the World Government, we need to understand how Moria fights (and how his crew helps him fight), and the duties of a Shichibukai.

The first question to ask concerning Moria is if part of the bounty for Moria comes from the fact that he can create a crew of this nature, a crew that the World Government seemingly approves of? We know his current bounty, but we are not sure of how he managed to achieve such a large bounty. I believe that part of his bounty must be from the creation of completely obedient and loyal subordinates. Up until this point in the story we have seen no evidence that Moria can fight besides the possibility of strength from the gigantic body that he posses (this is evidence if for no other reason than all Giants up to this point have been stead fast fighters, so it is possible that Moria as a diminutive Giant or Half-Giant may be a fighter). But, during any point of actual combat, Moria seems to retreat and regroup instead of stand and fight, so there is no reason to assume that he has any real physical strength. But, if part of his bounty comes from his crew, then it is possible that Moria himself is not a powerhouse of strength (maybe we have never seen him fight because he can not fight, in fact he seems to be better at escaping than actually attacking), but rather he seems to be a tactical person issuing commands and fighting through others. Think of it as a Shogun sending out his assassin Ninjas (or something to that effect), the Ninja may be the one who killed you, but it was from the order of the Shogun that it occurred. During the encounter with the strawhat crew, he does not personally fight, but rather he fights through another, in the latter cases Odz.

The only time we actually see him active is when he performs his knockout move against Luffy and Robin. This is a powerful attack, and even if he does not show a finishing move, he has simply used a subordinate to finish the job. The only downside to this move that I can see is the fact that it probably would not work against several opponents at once (Moria does not seem to have the power of Naruto's Shadow Clone, he seems to only have the power to replace himself with his like-sized shadow (i.e. he can only ever replace himself with his shadow when is the same build/relative size as his own body)so while he may be able to split his shadow up he seems to only be able to replace a shadow that is shaped like him). If this downside is in fact true, then it would become impossible for Moria to fight several strong level opponents by himself. So, Moria's obedient crew steps in to fill the gap.

From these few assumptions it seems safe to assume that Moria has always fought using the strength of his crew, and since his power creates a completely loyal crew, there is no reason to assume that Moria could not have a physically stronger subordinate. Added to that, Moria has never once displayed any form of physical strength; rather everything he has done has created a distance between himself and his opponents, a strategic move that allows him to fight his opponents from afar. From this, it is reasonable to conclude that Moria is physically very weak but potentially very intelligent and fights using his subordinates. It seems that the only way to defeat Moria would be to defeat his crew.

Now onto the role of a Shichibukai. One of the jobs if not the main job of a Shichibukai is to stop pirates from joining or from advancing in strength (It is never mentioned that a Shichibukai must completely destroy his enemy in order to be a Shichibukai, it is only said that he must stop Pirate uprisings). So, the Shichibukai act as a deterrent for the formation and organization of pirate crews. Moria is a perfect Shichibukai because he can turn anyone he meets into a subordinate. Moria presents the opportunity for the World Government to create an army of servants from potentially dangerous pirates that will follow the World Governments law. Not only is this a great deterrent against the formation of pirates in the section of the world that Moria is located, it is also a means of taking pirates captive and forcing them to work for you. So, the World Government would wholeheartedly support Moria's abilities.

In conclusion, Moria being defeated by pure brute strength is actually quite understandable. He has never shown himself to be physically strong; he has never shown himself to be able to withstand an attack. We know for sure that he has been defeated in the past, and we know that he has incredibly strong subordinates. It seems to be Moria's amazing ability to create perfect and loyal soldiers that never tire and always continue fighting that create a great deal of Moria's bounty, and the fact that he can turn potential revolutionaries to his cause makes him an ideal Shichibukai. There is nothing weak about the way he was defeated, because he was systematically taken apart piece by piece.

___

Concerning the issues raised about Zoro's new sword and any power it may posses. To solve this debate you need only answer one question: Do you believe that one of Zoro's swords has a curse on/in it? If the sword is in fact cursed, then it is possible that a sword could have an intrinsic power all of its own. But, if the sword is not cursed, then all of the power and strength comes from the swordsman and any quotes concerning the power or strength of a sword merely have to do with the fact that the swordsman has not become acclimated to the balance of the blade yet. (I should also mention that the discussion of Swords having their own power is a discussion of Eastern versus Western mythos. It is more likely for an item to posses’ power of its own in the East than it is for an item to have its own power in the west.) I personally believe that in the world of One Piece swords can have their own power, but in the real world a swordsman makes the sword.

___

My last point concerns Logia users. Correct me if I am wrong, but we have never seen a Logia user fight defensively and offensively at the same time. Specifically, Ace or Crocodile or Enel never made themselves invulnerable to an attack (i.e. turn permeable to physical attacks) while at the same time launching an attack of their own. In other words, Ace has not blasted a flamethrower from his hands while being impervious to physical attacks. Since I have never seen a Logia user using defense and offense at the same time, I have always assumed that a Logia user could only use one at a time and that a conscious thought of 'Attack' or 'Defend' was needed in order to use their powers. If this is true, then an easy way to defeat a Logia user would be to force them to attack you, then immediately counterattack. With Luffy’s current speed it would be amazingly easy for him to defeat any of his previous Logia opponents especially the ones he already knows a weakness for. (Obviously this analysis only pertains to the characters that have shown ‘all’ of their strength (i.e. Crocodile and Enel and possible Ace) Aokiji and Smoker are still questionable.)
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-27, 20:37   Link #119
Slayerx
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Let us start with the glaring difference between Moria and the other Shichibukai: Shichibukai are not allowed to have crews. I am not sure of this, but I seem to remember that DonFlamingo (spelling?) told his former subordinate Bellamy that he needed to be punished for using their former pirate flag because the World Government would hunt down DonFlamingo if they ever saw it in use again. Also, wasn't the reason Crocodile went by the name Mr. 0 because he needed to be covert about his work with the organization Baroque Works so that the World Government would not come after him or stop his plans. The World Government, up until we meet Moria, has always maintained that the Shichibukai can not have a crew of their own. So, why does Moria maintain such a large crew? This idea of having a crew is important to understanding Moria's strength.
Actually, it may not be nessasarily true that a shichibukai must leave there crew... trhoughout all of One piece i do not recall it being directly stated that a Shichibukai must leave their crew. There have been elements that imply such an arrangement; but each of these elements could have an explaination

-first we have Arlong who was part of Jinbei's crew... simple explaination is that Arlong and the other Mermen left on their own
-Mihawk and Croc not having any crew... it could be their either voluntarily dumpped their crews(croc) or they never had a crew to begin with (Mihawk seems like a loner)... Kuma may be another one; he might not even have a ship
-Doflamingo and his crew... it could be that Doflamingo left Bellemany in charge while he was gone. The reason he punished Bellemny was because he had disgraced the flag by getting beaten down by Luffy

Something that was brought up in another thread was the fate of Blackbeard's crew... if it's true that the Shichibukai must leave their crew, then what was the point of blackbeard finding that crew in the first place? Considering he planned to become a shichibukai right after leaving Whitebeard's crew, it seems rather pointless if it were true.

Ofcourse, all of this could be flipped... Arlong and the other mermen could have been forced from the crew... Croc and Mihawk could have been forced to break up their crews... and it could be that Doflamingo offically left his crew behind, BUT is actually secretly still in charge... in a similar fashion, Blackbeard could offcially dump his crew, only to continue giving them orders from the shadows

So, unless it's directly stated that a shichibukai must leave their crew, it's kind up in the air at the moment on what the truth is
Quote:
Concerning the issues raised about Zoro's new sword and any power it may posses. To solve this debate you need only answer one question: Do you believe that one of Zoro's swords has a curse on/in it? If the sword is in fact cursed, then it is possible that a sword could have an intrinsic power all of its own. But, if the sword is not cursed, then all of the power and strength comes from the swordsman and any quotes concerning the power or strength of a sword merely have to do with the fact that the swordsman has not become acclimated to the balance of the blade yet. (I should also mention that the discussion of Swords having their own power is a discussion of Eastern versus Western mythos. It is more likely for an item to posses’ power of its own in the East than it is for an item to have its own power in the west.) I personally believe that in the world of One Piece swords can have their own power, but in the real world a swordsman makes the sword.
I am not talking about Power like shooting lightning and all that, but simply raw strength. It has been stated time and again that swords have a strength of their own... some good examples are like how Zoro directly says that Ryumma's sword looks strong... another good one is how Zoro was surprised at how powerful the attack he launch agaisnt Oz was... obviously, if the sword did not contribute to the swordsmans strength, then Zoro should have been able to launch attacks of similar power back when he had his old sword... but no, while weilding Ryumma's sword he noticed quite a bit of additional strength in his attacks...

what best illustrates my point is a comparison like... two swordsman with the EXACT same amount of strength, skill, ability, etc duel eathother... one swordsman weilds a very common everday sword, while the other swordsman weilds a masterwork sword made diamond... which of the two swordsman would win in such a fight in the world of one piece

Also, do not bother bringing up the how things are in the real world, because this is shonen anime... the strength difference between things in the real world is very minimal where as the strength difference in shonen is crazy
Quote:
My last point concerns Logia users. Correct me if I am wrong, but we have never seen a Logia user fight defensively and offensively at the same time. Specifically, Ace or Crocodile or Enel never made themselves invulnerable to an attack (i.e. turn permeable to physical attacks) while at the same time launching an attack of their own. In other words, Ace has not blasted a flamethrower from his hands while being impervious to physical attacks. Since I have never seen a Logia user using defense and offense at the same time, I have always assumed that a Logia user could only use one at a time and that a conscious thought of 'Attack' or 'Defend' was needed in order to use their powers. If this is true, then an easy way to defeat a Logia user would be to force them to attack you, then immediately counterattack. With Luffy’s current speed it would be amazingly easy for him to defeat any of his previous Logia opponents especially the ones he already knows a weakness for. (Obviously this analysis only pertains to the characters that have shown ‘all’ of their strength (i.e. Crocodile and Enel and possible Ace) Aokiji and Smoker are still questionable.)
your argument is a bit broken actually... you see, the only time we see Logia's defend themselves (by that i mean, phasing through) is when the opponent is not using their weakness, however, when the opponent does have their weakness it's impossible for the logia to defend... the only time we have seen logia's fail to defend is when the opponent had their weakness. If it's true that we have never seen a Logia attack and defend at the same, then the reason is because such a situation has never come up... the only way we could verify if your theory was true is if we see a fight where the Logia attacks and the opponent strikes back WITHOUT using the logia's weakness and make contact

However... one thing i am reminded of, is that a logia phasing through attacks is not a passive ability, the logia must activate the power themselves... Ace and Smoker proved this back in alabasta... While they were in the resturant, Luffy slammed into the two of them sending them through several buildings... if the ability was passive then they would have just turned into smoke and fire, but it's not... they did not see Luffy coming and as such did not realize to activate their powers in time. Knowing the ability is not passive is enough to say that, in theory, an extremly fast fighter might be able to blind side a logia and hit them without using the weakness
Slayerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.