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Old 2008-02-15, 06:55   Link #221
ReAn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Actually anyone who can't play SD resolution H.264 with ffdshow really needs to upgrade; <800 MHz machines aren't that useful for much at all anymore except surfing the internet and word processing.
(I doubt you actually have a laptop that can't play SD H.264 for lack of processing power; you're probably just doing it wrong in general.)
There once was a time where DivX 4 lagged my computer... that's when i knew it was time to upgrade.

I agree w/ Fluff, if your machine can't cut it... it's time to upgrade... or perhaps think about BUYING the dvds... and you know >_> watching them on your tv.
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Old 2008-02-15, 15:32   Link #222
Tiamat's Disciple
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/me points to what he said originally

1) i buy the DVD's of shows i like

2) I don't see the need to upgrade a machine that runs everything eslse he uses perfectly.

However if you read what i wrote, you'd of seen that my complain't wasn't about it lagging, but about it's size. Alot of h.264 encodes are coming out now at over 300mb, with the average seeming to be around 220-240. For me i'd much rather reencode them to .rmvb and reduce that down to 75mb an episode.

Yes there may be a way to get h,264 down to that size, but i have neither the time nor the inclination to learn and fart around trying to get it right.

Using .rmvb is easier and simpler. Install realmedia producer and thats it, don't need to do anything else, drag and drop the files, click start, and leave it be. I go to bed, wake up the next morning and all 26 episodes have been shrunk down from over 5gb to 1.5gb, and the quality is more than adequate for watching. This way i can easily fit 3 series on one DVD, saves me space on my shelves, and cash.

If a show is good and i've enjoyed it, i buy the DVD's.

Also .rmvb only needs one codec, don't need CCCP (which i do use and love, not putting it down or anything) or anything, just use RealAlternative and that's it. Since my laptop only has 100gb HDD having shows at 1.5-1.8gb is a god sent, means i get to carry my fave shows with me and don't have to worry overly much about them eating up space. I also get to have them going while im using my work apps, since the CPU useage is nine existent.

I'm not saying h.264 isn't good, but im a bit sick of people saying it the bees knees and crap. As a viewer, i personally prefer .avi's since i can do more with them. Always have and probably always will. When a group releases a h.264 release, i simply reencode it to .avi then to .rmvb. Always will. Unless file sizes drop to 75mb or so, which i can't see happening. I've yet to see a h.264 release in any container thats 75mb, lowest i've seen so far was done by Froth Bite, which was 95-99mb i think it was.
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Old 2008-02-15, 15:38   Link #223
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
However if you read what i wrote, you'd of seen that my complain't wasn't about it lagging, but about it's size. Alot of h.264 encodes are coming out now at over 300mb, with the average seeming to be around 220-240. For me i'd much rather reencode them to .rmvb and reduce that down to 75mb an episode.

Yes there may be a way to get h,264 down to that size, but i have neither the time nor the inclination to learn and fart around trying to get it right.
Encoding H.264 is much easier than encoding RMVB, and you can probably get half the filesize for the same quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
Also .rmvb only needs one codec, don't need CCCP
H.264 needs only one codec as well. Difference is that RMV is a completely proprietary standard and should therefore not be used for any purpose beyond laughing at it.

Why do people insist on using closed formats that are nearly impossible to use and completely aggravating for users and developers alike? If only fansubs were like the Scene--then we could ban people who posted RMVs, like they deserve.
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:02   Link #224
Tiamat's Disciple
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Encoding H.264 is much easier than encoding RMVB, and you can probably get half the filesize for the same quality.
H.264 needs only one codec as well. Difference is that RMV is a completely proprietary standard and should therefore not be used for any purpose beyond laughing at it.

Why do people insist on using closed formats that are nearly impossible to use and completely aggravating for users and developers alike? If only fansubs were like the Scene--then we could ban people who posted RMVs, like they deserve.
Build an encoder thats as easy to use as the Real Producer one is, then i may use it.

As for banning people, thats just plain arrogance. Your basically saying do it my way or frag off. Not a good way to bring in the fans. I like .rmvb, over the years i've found it the best format for me, and until something comes along that is better and easier to use ill keep using it.

Saying it's easier to use (h.264) is futile, ive tried it and the encoders gave me a head ache. I'm not a fansubber, and i don't want to have to learn how to be an encoder just to enjoy something. I have enough on my plate working full time aswell as working as a editor for scanlations.

I'll say it again, .rmvb is easier for me to use. I don't have to do anything other than drag, drop and press. Thats it. I drag and drop the .avi files into the proggy, and click start. Thats all i have to do, no having to faf around finding out all the different settings.

Want me to stop using it, then build an encoding appication thats as easy to use as RealMedia Producer, and gives me an output file of 75mb. Do that and i'll try it. Until then you've no right to tell me i'm doing something wrong or should be banned for it. I do what makes my life easier, not to please others.

I download a release, seed it for a whlle, depending on the show usually to around 3.0, or if i need bandwidth for something else 1.0. Then i convert it, what i do with a rele3ase after i DL it is no ones business but mine.

For the record, several fansub groups actually support .rmvb and release thier own .rmvb releases, so i suppose you'd want to ban those groups aswell. It's none of your business who groups release, they make their own decisions based on what they and their fans want.
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:06   Link #225
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
Build an encoder thats as easy to use as the Real Producer one is, then i may use it.
Have you tried Staxrip, MeGUI, Handbrake, Ripbot264, Avidemux, or AutoMKV? They range in ease of use and complexity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
As for banning people, thats just plain arrogance. Your basically saying do it my way or frag off. Not a good way to bring in the fans. I like .rmvb, over the years i've found it the best format for me, and until something comes along that is better and easier to use ill keep using it.
Its proprietary, which makes it complete hell for anyone else to deal with, since there are almost no tools for manipulating proprietary file formats.. Also, Real Alternative is illegal, because it illegally redistributes DLLs extracted from Realplayer in violation of the license agreement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
Want me to stop using it, then build an encoding appication thats as easy to use as RealMedia Producer, and gives me an output file of 75mb. Do that and i'll try it. Until then you've no right to tell me i'm doing something wrong or should be banned for it. I do what makes my life easier, not to please others.
OK, then you should be banned for advocating the use of an illegal playback pack. How about that?
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:07   Link #226
Tiamat's Disciple
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oh please, fansubs in their entirety are illegal, get over yourself.

And yes, i've tried most of those, none are as easy to use as RealMedia Producer or produce a file the same size as RMP
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:07   Link #227
D404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
If only fansubs were like the Scene--then we could ban people who posted RMVs, like they deserve.
I hope to hell that fansubs never become like the scene, in any form...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
As for banning people, thats just plain arrogance. Your basically saying do it my way or frag off. Not a good way to bring in the fans.
Subbers will release however the hell they want to. And contrary to popular belief, many subbers do NOT do it for others, but for themselves (enjoyment).
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:08   Link #228
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
oh please, fansubs in their entirety are illegal, get over yourself
Please see
Quote:
Originally Posted by FORUM RULES
AnimeSuki does not wish to be associated with unlawful and ethically unacceptable activities (e.g. piracy).
also
Quote:
Originally Posted by D404 View Post
I hope to hell that fansubs never become like the scene, in any form...
I agree. The Scene are completely incompetent encoders who value speed over quality. However, on the other hand, if you've had to deal with tech support for people trying to play back fansubs released in AVI format, with H.264 video, and Vorbis audio, you would want to be able to ban the people who made them too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
or produce a file the same size as RMP
Since every single one of those programs allows you to set the bitrate arbitrarily, this statement is patently false. At least one of the encoders I listed is a one-click encoder, also.

The point is that you're free to use RMVB for your own use--nobody has a problem with this--but advocating it for fansubbing and distribution use is simply nuts.
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:13   Link #229
D404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Please see
Quote:
Originally Posted by FORUM RULES
AnimeSuki does not wish to be associated with unlawful and ethically unacceptable activities (e.g. piracy).
Yea... quite paradoxical really. (is that the right word? lol).

Also.. OH NOES, OFF TOPIC. :<
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:16   Link #230
Tiamat's Disciple
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Quote:
AnimeSuki does not wish to be associated with unlawful and ethically unacceptable activities (e.g. piracy).
Real Alternative may be ilegal, however this has yet to be legaly shown. Since to date Real Networks have yet to take ANY legal action, unlike apple who took legal action against the Quick Time Alternative.

So until they actually do press legal charges, it dosent breech that rule (as far as i can see, upto a mod to decide). However i'm not breaking that rule, im not saying everyone should use .rmvb. What i've said is that it's a format best for me, and what I use.

I'd also point out that ethically unacceptable is a grey area, since im sure if you asked the licensors if they found fansubs unethical, im sure they'd say yes

Quote:
Subbers will release however the hell they want to. And contrary to popular belief, many subbers do NOT do it for others, but for themselves (enjoyment
I agree completely, it's the same with scanlations
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:19   Link #231
leetdood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
The point is that you're free to use RMVB for your own use--nobody has a problem with this--but advocating it for fansubbing and distribution use is simply nuts.
I agree- also, for people who say that fansubbers should release more stuff that is compatible with the lowest denominator... (slow computers, less codecs, etc) The fansubbers want to do the best work they can, for themselves. Most don't want to release a shoddy encode in xvid or rmvb just so people with crap computers can play them. It's not about the fans. If said people with crappy computers want to re-encode to rmvb to save space and to make it easier to play... well, i call that insanity, but they're free to do that.

TL;DR version: Can't play h264? BAW. Re-encode it, and don't advocate inferior methods.

(Tiamat's Disciple: Not trying to be rude, just trying to get my point across to anybody who reads this, you say you're not advocating rmvb so that's cool.)
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:26   Link #232
Tiamat's Disciple
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Quote:
The point is that you're free to use RMVB for your own use--nobody has a problem with this--but advocating it for fansubbing and distribution use is simply nuts.
Where did i say this?? Are you reading the same board as me??

What i saidwas that some groups ARE releasing .rmvb's, i didnt say they SHOULD. I do advocate .rmvb for storage, because it's what i use. The only place i do advocate it however is on my own blog. And im LEGALLY allowed to do so since im actually a paying owner of Real Player and Encoder, (i use ERMP because it easier to use) for my desktop, i use Real Alternative on the laptop. Just as i'm a paying user of QuickTime.

leet, it's upto the groups to decide how they release. Several choose to release 3 formats, .rmvb, .avi and .mkv, other also release a PSP version.

Also, sometimes inferior is better

Well, im done here. got more important things to do than to argue with people i don't know or care about over something that pointless >.<

Time for work

/me wants a holiday, somewhere nice and warm....
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:38   Link #233
Dark Shikari
x264 Developer
 
 
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Anyways, I'd figure I'd test the idea that x264 can't do small file sizes effectively...

(Yes, I know this wasn't directly stated, but it was an excuse to pull out the encoder )

Bitrate: 117kbps (20MB for a full episode, plus 4-5MB for 24kbps HE-AAC audio)
Resolution: DVD resolution
2000 frames total, from TMHS episode 9 (Lost Island Syndrome, Part 1)

Linkage (1.4MB)

Yes, at this quality, you could fit an entire episode in 25MB.

Encoder info:

$ x264.exe --threads auto --aq-strength 0 --bframes 16 --direct auto --partitions all --weightb --b-pyramid --mixed-refs --8x8dct --progress haruhi.avs -o test.h264 --subme 7 --ref 16 --me tesa --merange 32 --b-rdo --bime --crf 30
avis [info]: 704x384 @ 23.98 fps (2000 frames)
x264 [info]: using cpu capabilities: MMX MMXEXT SSE SSE2 SSE3 SSSE3 Cache64
x264 [info]: slice I:33 Avg QP:26.36 size: 11716 PSNR Mean Y:46.68 U:47.89V:47.47 Avg:46.92 Global:44.08
x264 [info]: slice P:495 Avg QP:28.55 size: 1458 PSNR Mean Y:41.66 U:43.80V:43.51 Avg:42.16 Global:41.44
x264 [info]: slice B:1472 Avg QP:29.93 size: 74 PSNR Mean Y:42.01 U:43.65V:43.50 Avg:42.42 Global:41.83
x264 [info]: mb I I16..4: 53.1% 19.6% 27.4%
x264 [info]: mb P I16..4: 5.8% 2.5% 0.8% P16..4: 16.0% 3.1% 1.6% 0.2%.1% skip:69.9%
x264 [info]: mb B I16..4: 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% B16..8: 2.7% 0.0% 0.1% direct 0.0% skip:97.2%
x264 [info]: 8x8 transform intra:24.3% inter:48.4%
x264 [info]: direct mvs spatial:87.6% temporal:12.4%
x264 [info]: ref P 73.4% 8.3% 6.8% 2.4% 2.2% 1.4% 1.5% 0.5% 0.6% 0.5% 0.5% 0.4% 0.4% 0.4% 0.5% 0.2%
x264 [info]: ref B 61.7% 17.9% 8.3% 2.9% 2.4% 1.8% 1.9% 0.7% 0.6% 0.5% 0.3% 0.2% 0.4% 0.3% 0.2%
x264 [info]: SSIM Mean Y:0.9852739
x264 [info]: PSNR Mean Y:42.000 U:43.759 V:43.571 Avg:42.430 Global:41.756 kb/s 116.75
encoded 2000 frames, 6.17 fps, 117.03 kb/s
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:46   Link #234
Nicholi
King of Hosers
 
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Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
Real Alternative may be ilegal, however this has yet to be legaly shown. Since to date Real Networks have yet to take ANY legal action, unlike apple who took legal action against the Quick Time Alternative.

So until they actually do press legal charges, it dosent breech that rule (as far as i can see, upto a mod to decide). However i'm not breaking that rule, im not saying everyone should use .rmvb. What i've said is that it's a format best for me, and what I use.
Yes and suppose under the same retarded logic, until each Japanese copyright holder files legal action against each fansubber it is clearly not breaking copyright law...of course. Everything is case by case...there is no such thing as illegal until action ensues. It is not like any company has EVER sued someone for illegally distributing their proprietary software (what rock do you live under? lol). Do you also believe if I go into your house and steal from you, it is not illegal until you press charges? The sense is truly unmaking. Things are illegal by nature, whether you are punished however has nothing to do with the illegality of the subject.
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Old 2008-02-15, 16:59   Link #235
Daiz
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This is the first time I'm seeing a proper example of the quality/compression ratio that H.264 has to offer, and I have to say that I am very impressed. I'd say the video quality itself could be considered MQ. Personally I would bump the audio bitrate up though, since the video artefacts are very tolerable, but the bad audio quality is lot harder to tolerate... But that example is still awesome anyway.
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Old 2008-02-15, 17:02   Link #236
Tiamat's Disciple
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Yes and suppose under the same retarded logic, until each Japanese copyright holder files legal action against each fansubber it is clearly not breaking copyright law...of course. Everything is case by case...there is no such thing as illegal until action ensues. It is not like any company has EVER sued someone for illegally distributing their proprietary software (what rock do you live under? lol). Do you also believe if I go into your house and steal from you, it is not illegal until you press charges? The sense is truly unmaking. Things are illegal by nature, whether you are punished however has nothing to do with the illegality of the subject.

Your analogy is wrong. Real Networks is vocal in claiming that Real Alternative is stealing thie dll's, however has never backed this up with ANY form of legal action. So yes, in this case until they file it isnt illegal. If it were illegal they wouldn't just shout about it, they'd take action.

Dark, just for you i went and tried those apps again, just for you. The only one that was remotely easy to use is RipBot, which is hard to use cause the GUI is some damned faint. As for the encode, i'll let you know when it's finished.

As for the others, they all require other softwaear or knowledge i dont have. None are as easy to use as ERMP

@Daiz, i agree. The video was pretty good, but the audio sucked. Which encoder was that?

Edit: Nope RipBot fails big time, on the test file i used a 20mb AMV, reduced the audio to 96, and ended up with a crap video and tinny sound and 2mb larger in a .mkv.

So i guess i'll be sticking with .rmvb for now.
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Old 2008-02-15, 17:06   Link #237
TheFluff
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I did this 25MB/ep experiment once years ago too. It looks kinda crappy (better than, say, youtube though), but x264 has improved since then and so have I. I didn't exactly pick the most compressible show ever either; if it had been something like Night Head Genesis (which reached average quants of around 18-20 at 85mb/ep at 704x400) it would be perfectly watchable.

ninja edit: ^^^ you don't have any idea about how copyright law works do you? Real Alternative is definitely illegal in all countries that implement laws that even faintly resemble the ones outlined in Berne Convention. I don't know why Real hasn't sued but it's not because it's not illegal.
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Last edited by TheFluff; 2008-02-15 at 17:18.
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Old 2008-02-15, 17:06   Link #238
Dark Shikari
x264 Developer
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
Your analogy is wrong. Real Networks is vocal in claiming that Real Alternative is stealing thie dll's, however has never backed this up with ANY form of legal action. So yes, in this case until they file it isnt illegal. If it were illegal they wouldn't just shout about it, they'd take action.
Something being illegal is completely independent of whether or not legal action is taken against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
Dark, just for you i went and tried those apps again, just for you. The only one that was remotely easy to use is RipBot, which is hard to use cause the GUI is some damned faint. As for the encode, i'll let you know when it's finished.
Yup, most of them are not one-click; I wasn't sure which one was though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
@Daiz, i agree. The video was pretty good, but the audio sucked. Which encoder was that?
Its Nero's AAC encoder at 24kbps. Yeah, not very good. I could up it to 32 or 40 and it'd be much, much better.

IMO the best "balance" of quality and filesize for low-bitrate would be around 200kbps x264 and 48kbps HE-AAC, probably.
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Old 2008-02-15, 17:07   Link #239
Nicholi
King of Hosers
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat's Disciple View Post
Your analogy is wrong. Real Networks is vocal in claiming that Real Alternative is stealing thie dll's, however has never backed this up with ANY form of legal action. So yes, in this case until they file it isnt illegal. If it were illegal they wouldn't just shout about it, they'd take action.
What? I have never heard them being vocal about it at all. But it does not require action on the part of the copyright holder to make something illegal. Who codes the Real software? It's not you, and the Real software is not under GPL. They own the software, not the public. And just like with illegally distributing anime fansubs, we do not have the authority to distribute them without the licensors permission. No one has the authority to distribute Real's proprietary software but them. So yes, it is still illegal.

P.S. Can you list the "several groups" which are releasing RMVB?
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Old 2008-02-15, 17:19   Link #240
Tiamat's Disciple
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
What? I have never heard them being vocal about it at all. But it does not require action on the part of the copyright holder to make something illegal. Who codes the Real software? It's not you, and the Real software is not under GPL. They own the software, not the public. And just like with illegally distributing anime fansubs, we do not have the authority to distribute them without the licensors permission. No one has the authority to distribute Real's proprietary software but them. So yes, it is still illegal.
Your obviously not reading what im writing. Real claim the RA is illegal, yet refuse to back it up. It would be like me saying you stole something from my house, telling everyone that'll listen, but not telling the police or filing charges. After a while people wonder why i havent called the cops and had you busted, and stop believing.

RA may be ilegal, i don't know, but the fact that RN have yet to make any move other that stating they're illegal makes me wonder about it. But you hit the nail on the head, your fine distributing stolen anime, but not a codec, talk about ilogical >.<

@Dark

Quote:
IMO the best "balance" of quality and filesize for low-bitrate would be around 200kbps x264 and 48kbps HE-AAC, probably.
Whats the end result filesize roughly of a normal episode using that?

And which version of nero would i have to buy, $99 is a bit expensive, especially since i don't like any of nero's other stuff hehe. Shame you cant just buy the encoder on it's own
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