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Old 2007-11-18, 04:00   Link #61
bayoab
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Until someone actually gets a word out of comcast out of how they found this out, this is all just speculation. There are lots of backward ways they could go about this and you would never find out whether there is an actual company behind it.

Ex: Comcast contacts BayTSP, BayTSP sends Comcast the info in DMCA form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green² View Post
But this whole incident shouldn't be limited to any one ISP. Which likely means that the other ISPs took one look at what DMCA thingie notice was sent to them, and told the sender to go *$%^ themselves. ...Likely meaning that Comcast is breaking a law or two.
Comcast is only breaking the law if there is no actual copyright holder requesting for them to send the notice. They are not breaking the law by forwarding an invalid DMCA takedown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm going to bet this is complete Comcast bullshit ... and coupled with their illegal RST packet reset attacks of torrents.
I too am of this opinion but there is no evidence either way. The only thing is that I seriously doubt they would go through the trouble of faking DMCAs because that could get them in big trouble if they are caught. This would be even bigger trouble than violating net neutrality with their semi-illegal RST packets. There are legal clauses about abusing the DMCA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Taken seperately each of those might not mean much, but together it looks like these dmca notices are really "stop using so much bandwith" notices. Comcast likely just envoked general dmca warnings to give it more impact.
In all ISPs Terms of Service conditions, there is always a clause on both file sharing and bandwidth usage. If this was really about bandwidth issues, they could just as easily have sent a "cut down your bandwidth or we cap you" notice. This seems more like they want to scare people away from bittorrent.

Edit: Note: It looks like Comcast never lists the copyright holder based on a few searches.

Edit2: Sigh, I really shouldn't post at 4am without researching more.

Last edited by bayoab; 2007-11-18 at 05:08.
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Old 2007-11-18, 07:43   Link #62
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ComCast users should feel lucky rather than taking it out on their ISP because it has effectively "buffered" the legal threats and not giving out the subscriber info.

There are news of other people receiving the notice directly from BayTSP.

And yes, it is Odex/AVPAS.
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Old 2007-11-18, 07:50   Link #63
wao
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I somehow can't see Odex going through the trouble of going through overseas ISPs for these people... I'm sure they know they're not aiming for the US market, why on earth would they go after downloaders of the fansubs? Wouldn't they rather tell the groups to stop?

Somehow I think it's much more likely that it's a Japanese company, although the shows don't seem to have any relation to each other. I don't know, have they all grouped together and hired a tracking firm to monitor the relevant places and gather the IPs to send to?
Especially the fact that one person got hit for downloading a raw as per GHDpro's post...

And pardon me if I got it wrong, but couldn't it just happen that Comcast agreed to send the notices while there may be other ISPs that haven't yet (Singaporean downloaders were only getting notices if they were Singtel customers at first, but it was a matter of time before StarHub customers got the letter, though not from the ISP)


Unless I'm making some terrible misunderstanding, which is always possible...

I obviously don't think this is anywhere near the end of fansubbing, but perhaps it'll mark a decline in people using BitTorrent to download anime and it'll be back to secure DDLs or XDCC bots or streaming video... If anything that might make AnimeSuki (the site) less relevant than before, but that's offtopic I suppose.

EDIT: read that post on AoD, what the hell?

I suppose they're running on the idea that it's illegal anyway, and since (in that case, supposedly) the Japanese companies have not done anything or do not dare do anything on their own against these downloaders even though it's illegal anyway, they give Odex permission to act on behalf on them and then go through that avenue...? But gee, even if it isn't Odex doing all the tracking, if they have the time to be managing this I wish they'd put more stuff up on their VoD service although that isn't entirely their fault grumble grumble.
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Old 2007-11-18, 08:00   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wao View Post
other ISPs that haven't yet (Singaporean downloaders were only getting notices if they were Singtel customers at first, but it was a matter of time before StarHub customers got the letter, though not from the ISP)
Singtel customers never got the warning from the ISP in the first place. The letter that greeted them came in the form of a registered courier package right at their doorstop from the postman (a la grim reaper style) paid by Odex, informing them of the impending lawsuit and that they must settle for a few thousand US dollars.

That's how scary it can be, but that is what actually happened.

It was only after the outcry where Odex says "OK, we now send it via ISPs". So far, I have not heard of any cases in Singapore where they received this email.

Because the letters are now sent by email and not by physical mail, there is hardly a way to tell whether the addresses sent to are in Singapore, and these kind of mistakes can occur.
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Old 2007-11-18, 10:10   Link #65
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Many ISPs are having problems with bandwidth. They originally provisioned their networks when text-based HTTP traffic was the norm. The burstable nature of the early Internet made it easy to oversell available bandwidth.

Here’s an example, if 100 homes in an area has a max download speed of 500Kbps –or 1 third of a T1, (approx, this is just an example) in order to really “guarantee” that bandwidth, they would need around 33 T1 lines to the Internet. This is impossible for both technical and financial reasons.

So what does this mean? They have SERIOUS bandwidth issues today. The Internet is not just small bursts of downloads, its constant VPNs, VOIP sessions, streaming video from YouTube and other sites. It’s a hell of a lot more bandwidth AT THE SAME TIME.

Some ISPs blame the user. They shut off or limit some protocols. They break VOIP sessions, they mess with your VPNs unless you pay for “business” services. The list goes on and on.

The first services on the block are anything that they might be able to legitimately restrict for cause. All P2P downloading protocols are game. Video gaming sessions, access to porn sites, etc.

Now, chances are, they are not actually flagging the bit torrent downloads. I would bet money that they just flagged the download of the torrent file itself. That was downloaded over normal, unencrypted HTTP like any other file except it had .torrent in the name. Very, very, very easy to flag.

An unencrypted torrent session would be easy to decode. I can’t say the same for an encrypted session. I ONLY use encryption. I haven’t looked at the bit torrent protocol enough to say anything about how the clients talk to the trackers. That could be a way for an ISP to decode a session.

A way to handle this problem would be for those who provide the .torrent files to use a secured (HTTPS) HTTP session.

Like the one persons said, because the letter didn’t include any information about the copyright holder, I think its phony. They may be doing this as a precursor to limiting your bandwidth based on what would now be a “acceptable use” rule violation. Or as a media tool to show how much illegal activity it causing problems.

IT people at companies and ISP are constantly being ordered to “do something about bandwidth and congestion.”

It doesn't cost anything to auto generate an email to scare you from using bit torrent. It isn’t' illegal either. They probably analyzed lots of bit torrent traffic and filtered out the paid or legal bit torrent traffic and then picked a number of others to go after. Just consider how many .torrent files with “Gundam” get downloaded every day.

Hey, if it was my network, I would suggest the same ploy. Hell, I would even demand a bonus. Of course every IT guy at an ISP has mega bandwidth and NO restrictions!
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Old 2007-11-18, 10:23   Link #66
atividia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apterous View Post
I submitted this to the slashdot firehose (vote it up, they love to hate Comcast there), and pretty much said that it's likely just a scare tactic since Comcast's recent tactics for scaring bittorrent downloaders are under federal investigation.
I've modded up three comments in that post. If anyone wants a karma boost, post a decent, insightful (or funny or whatever) comment and I'll mod it up. I've got two more mod points.
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Old 2007-11-18, 11:01   Link #67
Le Haitien
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Really when i think about it i have always gotten a dmca notice when using a lot of bandwith. at that time i had about 30+ downloads going at the same time, the smallest one being 200mb and largest one 25gb.

this is the 4th one I've gotten from comcast in the past year, all of which when using high bandwith.

Last edited by Le Haitien; 2007-11-18 at 11:14.
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Old 2007-11-18, 11:40   Link #68
Lord Head
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I got a nastygram for Philanthropy's Higurashi no Naku Koroni Kai, and dl about 10-30 GB/mo, trying to seed to about 1.5:1 or so. I suppose I should be a bit more curcumspect.
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Old 2007-11-18, 11:46   Link #69
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasdern View Post
Now, chances are, they are not actually flagging the bit torrent downloads. I would bet money that they just flagged the download of the torrent file itself. That was downloaded over normal, unencrypted HTTP like any other file except it had .torrent in the name. Very, very, very easy to flag.
No. All they (BayTSP) do is that when a torrent with the given name pops up wherever they are watching, they just "jump" on it and constantly download peer lists. That is why it gives the tracker name and the file name there. That is oversimplified but that is the gist of what they are doing. It doesn't matter what you encrypt along the way. The BT protocol works by giving out peer lists that are just sets of IPs and ports. (And even if you somehow made it so trackers encrypted the IPs, they could easily run the same trick and just wait and see where it connects.)
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Old 2007-11-18, 12:30   Link #70
ljjewell
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I would just like to say that starting last week my peerguardian began blocking anti-p2p ip addresses on: Gundam 00, Kodomo no Jikan, bamboo Blade, and Dragonaught.
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Old 2007-11-18, 12:42   Link #71
Messerschmitt_Bf-109
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So it may be COmcast, but it also sounds like businesses are getting serious.
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Old 2007-11-18, 12:51   Link #72
Apterous
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In my opinion, there is very little chance that all these different animation studios (Shugo Chara? really?!) contacted Comcast simultaneously to ask them to help stop all these various shows from being torrented. The big question is, why Comcast and not the other ISP's? The answer is that Comcast doesn't give two flying shits about IP, they're more worried about bandwidth usage affecting their own bottom line. From this perspective only do their actions make sense. At this point nothing can be proven, but follow my reasoning...

Comcast Manager's Train of Thought:
Mission: To reduce bittorrent bandwidth usage in new ways that don't get us in legal trouble like our last idea did.

Q: What are the groups that use the most bandwidth consistently?
A: Anime fansub downloaders, who usually follow several shows ever week, and as a group it
adds up very quickly. Them and Hollywood movie downloaders.

Q: What are the demographics?
A: On average, younger and more impressionable than Hollywood movie downloaders, and might be a little more likely to be intimidated by a legal-looking DCMA letter.

Q: Will it be easy to track their behavior?
A: YES! 90% of anime torrents go through 10 or fewer trackers.

Q: Will they be likely to double check with the original companies?
A: No, I doubt most if any fansub downloaders could navigate a site in Japanese and find contact information, unlike with Hollywood studios.

Q: Are the Japanese companies likely to catch wind that we are acting in their name without their permission?
A: Not likely, unlike in the Hollywood movies case where a studio might say "thanks Comcast, but next time talk to our PR & legal departments about it first. By the way, our lawyers want to rape you now."

Fansub downloaders are simply a much, much softer target.
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Old 2007-11-18, 12:58   Link #73
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man i wana see people quitting comcast
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Old 2007-11-18, 13:23   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mist2123 View Post
man i wana see people quitting comcast
I wanna see me quitting comcast, but no where else to go. It is encouraging that other people have recieved multiple DMCA's from comcast with no follow up. So maybe I will continue...

I too was downloading in a burst with about 30 torrents going, maybe I crossed some threshold within their system that they responded to.

Anyway, it's been three phone calls, an email, and over 48 hours and no response from Comcast.

If it is comcast, it makes sense that they wouldn't respond in a hurry, they want me to be scared and worry. If it isn't comcast, then wouldn't you think they would respond quickly to make sure the person sending them money is happy, since they haven't its awful customer service.

Either way Comcast sucks in this whole issue. I will be so happy when Verizon brings FiOS to this area.
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Old 2007-11-18, 13:56   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mist2123
man i wana see people quitting comcast
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarredmind View Post
I wanna see me quitting comcast, but no where else to go. It is encouraging that other people have recieved multiple DMCA's from comcast with no follow up. So maybe I will continue...
LOL! Same, and I rather go with verizion, they have better package at better price with better speed, but where I live Comcast rules supreme.
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Old 2007-11-18, 14:02   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Skarredmind View Post
Either way Comcast sucks in this whole issue. I will be so happy when Verizon brings FiOS to this area.
And you'll see one of the fastest upload times ever experienced in the residential United States.

A big WTF at Odex, a company in... Singapore firing DMCA notices at an ISP in Philadelphia. Exactly what are they trying to accomplish here?
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Old 2007-11-18, 14:03   Link #77
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Getting the US involved maybe?
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Old 2007-11-18, 14:21   Link #78
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Quote:
I submitted this to the slashdot firehose (vote it up, they love to hate Comcast there), and pretty much said that it's likely just a scare tactic since Comcast's recent tactics for scaring bittorrent downloaders are under federal investigation.
I'd recommend bracing for the impact if the submission ever gets to the front page... At any rate, it's red in the Firehose now, so it should be waiting for approval by an editor. I hope it gets posted soon.

Quote:
The only thing is that I seriously doubt they would go through the trouble of faking DMCAs because that could get them in big trouble if they are caught.
Don't these kinds of monopolistic companies (according to what I've heard of Comcast, it's a monopoly in some US regions) exploit the general ignorance of the users? These were private, arguably threatening letters sent to specific individuals, which might scare a lot of them. Of course, they do risk hitting a more legal-savvy user, but I doubt most of those who got it really are.
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Old 2007-11-18, 15:07   Link #79
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I'd recommend bracing for the impact if the submission ever gets to the front page... At any rate, it's red in the Firehose now, so it should be waiting for approval by an editor. I hope it gets posted soon.

Don't these kinds of monopolistic companies (according to what I've heard of Comcast, it's a monopoly in some US regions) exploit the general ignorance of the users? These were private, arguably threatening letters sent to specific individuals, which might scare a lot of them. Of course, they do risk hitting a more legal-savvy user, but I doubt most of those who got it really are.

That's exactly how they operate. I remember a few months ago when they had an ad running on tv saying somthing to the effect that net neutrality is nothing more than a bunch of mumbo jumbo, and that you should call your congressman and tell them you are against net neutrality and to not try to find out what it was because you wouldn't understand it.
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Old 2007-11-18, 15:08   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
LOL! Same, and I rather go with verizion, they have better package at better price with better speed, but where I live Comcast rules supreme.
I wish this was true where I live but while Comcast is slightly more expensive than Verizon it has double the speed. Also having Verizon in the past I constantly had problems with their service. I was knocked off every day, I really don't want to switch to them again because of this.
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