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Old 2008-10-26, 02:23   Link #201
LoweGear
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Originally Posted by Alvatore View Post
Why arent the Federation using the nukes against the Gundams? Do they have maybe agreement that forbid them frm using nukes?
From information on the World Report Book, apparently Celestial Being had been working in the shadows for centuries, steering the world to forsake nuclear power in favor of the Solar Energy system. And a major nuclear incident in the Middle East at some unknown date in the past helped to push the world into adopting Solar Energy. Whether it was intentional or not into Celestial Being's part, nuclear power has hardly been utilized or advocated since.
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Old 2008-10-26, 03:52   Link #202
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Indeed, there's probably enough stigma behind nukes that if they used them, they'd lose popular support.
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Old 2008-10-26, 10:04   Link #203
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Pretty straightforward. If the government goes and blows up a "terrorist hideout", killing the "terrorists", their wives and children; the governments labels this as justice but at the same time if a group of people does this to a military bases it is labeled as terrorism. What is the difference? There is no fundamental difference. Both are just fighting to protect or assert their views. Both will claim that the other was the one who started the violence and claim the high ground to their supporters.
And therein lies the rub. At least a government can honestly say that there's some legitimacy to its claims, a private group cannot. After all, one cannot simply claim to have certain rights and responsibilities.

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Governments exist to keep order. People naturally gather in groups. A leader or leaders will arise to give the group a purpose and direction. Without a purpose humans would descend into chaos. This doesn't change that new leaders might arise to challenge the established government with new ideas and a new purpose.
People need purpose? That's a very iffy proposition. Purpose is necessary in times of crisis, but most of the time... I really can't see it.

A government performs two main tasks - it allows society to function by regulating interactions between people (i.e. setting laws) and it pools public resources to provide greater benefits for society. The way it accomplishes these two tasks is through public discourse as a government that cannot communicate to its people doesn't even come close to working. Accompanying all of this is that governments have a certain (albeit varying) amounts of accountability to the people - this being why it bears responsibilities. In what way does a private, secretive organization do any of this?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your last point. Are you somehow trying to claim that there are legitimate means for a new leader to succeed the older ones?

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CB is only doing this. It is making way for a better future. Violence is often necessary to bring change to the world. CB is only a private group now but if they were able to take power they would of course take over the responsibilities of the government. Not that I think CB wants to take power but at least to change the way the world works.
Why would you say that Celestial Being speaks for anyone? And for that matter, the only reason taking violent is only considered necessary when the alternative is worse. In what way would the world have been worse off had Celestial Being not acted? I can think of Azadistan, but my list sort of ends there.

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Originally Posted by Alvatore View Post
Why arent the Federation using the nukes against the Gundams? Do they have maybe agreement that forbid them frm using nukes?
It must have been a extremely strong compulsion against using nuclear weapons since some of the powers were considering surrendering (silly as the idea was) before they would resort to using them.
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2008-10-26 at 22:04.
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Old 2008-10-26, 13:14   Link #204
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Err...I have a question,does the 3 power blocks have their own exclusive territory?
Even though they form EFeds,doesn't mean they have to abolish their respective border.

Are the 3 power blocks military division answer to one command for example EFeds upper ranks?
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Old 2008-10-26, 22:06   Link #205
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Err...I have a question,does the 3 power blocks have their own exclusive territory?
Even though they form EFeds,doesn't mean they have to abolish their respective border.

Are the 3 power blocks military division answer to one command for example EFeds upper ranks?
It looks like the power blocs are no more; that they've joined in a larger union and that the previous organizations are now dissolved. One of the telling things about Kataron is that some of the members still wear the old military uniforms, which suggests that they opposed the manner of the union. It doesn't really make all that much sense considering how the show started out, but that seems to be where we are now.
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Old 2008-11-18, 05:18   Link #206
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Really, the world is in a state of transition and let's not forget the Hand of Celestial Being (The Illuminati for all intents and purposes---exemplified by Ribbon) is probably behind the world's rapid transformation as well.

Now Ribbons is performing what amounts to Fascistification.
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Old 2008-11-18, 05:27   Link #207
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I see how this Earth Federation rolls with Ribbons as it's shadow leader. If you can't get em' to join, have their country mysteriously levelled and then go in and help them rebuild. Then after you're done install a provisional government and you're essentially in control. This isn't facism, this is nation building at the end of a gun barrel being fired straight through the heart of the territory in question. Current country not playing ball? Make a new one in it's place.

I think episode 07 effectively put an end to any legitimacy that the Earth Federation might have had. Power and peace through coercion does not equal true power and peace. The reason that Celestial Being is back in action is clear at last. The world hasn't changed at all, it's just been made to appear to have changed by the guy controlling the big computer system on the moon.
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Old 2008-11-18, 09:06   Link #208
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
From information on the World Report Book, apparently Celestial Being had been working in the shadows for centuries, steering the world to forsake nuclear power in favor of the Solar Energy system. And a major nuclear incident in the Middle East at some unknown date in the past helped to push the world into adopting Solar Energy. Whether it was intentional or not into Celestial Being's part, nuclear power has hardly been utilized or advocated since.
Sometime I wonder...

CB aside, isn't it to the superpower's best interests to make sure no nuclear powerplants are built? After all, there are only three elevators, and those who control the elevator controls all power. Construction of nuclear powerplants might be viewed less like an environmental or military threat, but more like an economic and political risk. Part of how the Federation managed to blackmail smaller nations right now, is that the Federation controls ALL 3 elevators. You don't join the Federation? You don't get electricity.

Back before the Federation was formed, at least you could pick and chose who you get your power from. But now it is a monopoly situation.
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Old 2008-11-18, 09:35   Link #209
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Sometime I wonder...

CB aside, isn't it to the superpower's best interests to make sure no nuclear powerplants are built? After all, there are only three elevators, and those who control the elevator controls all power. Construction of nuclear powerplants might be viewed less like an environmental or military threat, but more like an economic and political risk. Part of how the Federation managed to blackmail smaller nations right now, is that the Federation controls ALL 3 elevators. You don't join the Federation? You don't get electricity.

Back before the Federation was formed, at least you could pick and chose who you get your power from. But now it is a monopoly situation.
Are you talking about nuclear fusion or nuclear fission power plants gust for clarity.
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Old 2008-11-18, 09:51   Link #210
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Do you have any supporting arguments for such an assertion?


Nope. I'm literally referring to Alejandro and his band of merry men hiding behind their avatars. The big difference between the two is that even a dysfunctional government has obligations and responsiblities - a private group for the most part does not.

And of course, I hope you do understand why governments are necessary for societies as well.
Those people hiding behind their avatars were not part of Alejandro's conspiracy if they were they would have known were the three new Gundams came from and he would not have allowed them to remain anonymous. They were the Celestial Being oversight body.
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Old 2008-11-18, 09:52   Link #211
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
CB aside, isn't it to the superpower's best interests to make sure no nuclear powerplants are built? After all, there are only three elevators, and those who control the elevator controls all power. Construction of nuclear powerplants might be viewed less like an environmental or military threat, but more like an economic and political risk. Part of how the Federation managed to blackmail smaller nations right now, is that the Federation controls ALL 3 elevators. You don't join the Federation? You don't get electricity.
The prohibition against nuclear power seems to have been in place long before the show started. The three powers had economic difficulties long before they completed the elevators, and they never used nuclear power at the time despite how much it could have helped.

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Are you talking about nuclear fusion or nuclear fission power plants gust for clarity.
So far, the closest thing the world has to nuclear fusion seems to be the GN technologies.

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Those people hiding behind their avatars were not part of Alejandro's conspiracy if they were they would have known were the three new Gundams came from and he would not have allowed them to remain anonymous. They were the Celestial Being oversight body.
I know. I was talking about Celestial Being and I can't care less who among that group supported Alejandro.
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Old 2008-11-18, 10:25   Link #212
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Smile thermonuclear fusion

Thermonuclear fusion would have been perfected long ago their are already building one in France the ITER (International thermonuclear experimental reactor). I don't think the celestial being would have deterred that kind of development. I am not taking about fusion powered mobile suits just power plants. The solar furnace probably was a off shut of fusion technology research.

fossil fuels

Why would they bother to regulate a depleted resource? this has bothered me since the show started I thought solar power had made Oil, Coal, natural gas and other fossil fuels obsolete. Is their some explanation in the novel or manga.

Last edited by miles316; 2008-11-18 at 10:38.
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Old 2008-11-18, 10:49   Link #213
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Is the rest of the world taking revenge on the middle east for generations of petrochemical extortion. Is that why the Federation is decimating the Middle East.
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Old 2008-11-18, 13:40   Link #214
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Is the rest of the world taking revenge on the middle east for generations of petrochemical extortion. Is that why the Federation is decimating the Middle East.
I think this is more the case of classic propaganda and Imperialism. Ribbons undoubtedly is going to point out to the deteriorating system in Azadistan as reason to install his provisional government. To be honest, while we're undoubtedly supposed to hate Ribbons for doing this; it may actually be beneficial to the Azadistan citizens.

Let's face it, Marina wasn't exactly doing a bang-up job ruling.
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Old 2008-11-18, 13:58   Link #215
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I wonder where the surviving Azadistan citizens go.Could they join Kataron or take refuge on nearby country?

If some of them join Kataron,it would be great.Kataron need more manpower & hopefully Kataron got many MS left.
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Old 2008-11-18, 14:25   Link #216
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Originally Posted by Willowhugger View Post
I think this is more the case of classic propaganda and Imperialism. Ribbons undoubtedly is going to point out to the deteriorating system in Azadistan as reason to install his provisional government. To be honest, while we're undoubtedly supposed to hate Ribbons for doing this; it may actually be beneficial to the Azadistan citizens.

Let's face it, Marina wasn't exactly doing a bang-up job ruling.
I'm sorry, but ''beneficial''?

How exactly is Ribbons going to be beneficial to Azadistan? Did you not hear what Shirin said when she left Marina to go to Katharon? She said that Azadistan no longer has any future if it joins the Federation due to all the regulations they placed upon them . Did you not hear what the Federation done to Azadistan when they refused to join it? They basically twisted the countries arm into obeying them. And not to mention the fact that they kidnapped, interrogated, and imprisoned the head of state of Azadistan without any proper legal rights from the Federation. And let us not forget Ali and what he has done to the country. I'm sorry, but to me this all say's that the Azadistan citizens are going to be treated like dirt, and that they will be forced to live without any true rights for themselves.

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I wonder where the surviving Azadistan citizens go.Could they join Kataron or take refuge on nearby country?

If some of them join Kataron,it would be great.Kataron need more manpower & hopefully Kataron got many MS left.
Nearby countries most likely, but that won't matter because the Federation is going to subject them to their tyranny in the end.

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Is the rest of the world taking revenge on the middle east for generations of petrochemical extortion. Is that why the Federation is decimating the Middle East.
No, the world has abandoned the Middle East scene that switched to Solar Energy. Ever since then, countries like Azadistan have attempted to be acknowledged by the world, but since there was no use for them anymore, the world left them.

As for why the federation is doing this, it is because they want to remodel the entire world in their (or to be exact, Ribbons) image. The issue of petrochemical extortion has little to do with this other than the fact that the federation is doing the energy extortion, not the other way around here.
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Old 2008-11-18, 14:33   Link #217
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Originally Posted by Willowhugger View Post
I think this is more the case of classic propaganda and Imperialism. Ribbons undoubtedly is going to point out to the deteriorating system in Azadistan as reason to install his provisional government. To be honest, while we're undoubtedly supposed to hate Ribbons for doing this; it may actually be beneficial to the Azadistan citizens.

Let's face it, Marina wasn't exactly doing a bang-up job ruling.
The only thing this will do is give Azadistan people something to hate like the Federation.
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Old 2008-11-18, 14:38   Link #218
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In the first season the UN was regulating oil exports why are they regulating a depleted resource. Solar energy made fossil fuels obsolete.
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Old 2008-11-18, 14:42   Link #219
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The new Gundam anime seems to be implying that the Alliance forces are doing terrible things to the people in the Middle East, which is probably true. At the same time, the Chinese Federation and the Russians aren't very kind to them either, they are doing other types of conspiracies.

Thus, it is the job of the Celestial Beings (based in space) to ensure and maintain balance of the world, saving the Middle East from exploit and destruction. It is unclear however concerning the Celestial Being's headquarters. Are the Gundam Meisters former human beings or current human beings? Can the Celestial Beings be considered as aliens or not? After all, the mastermind of Celestial Being, Aeolia Schenberg is well over 200 years old. Can a person survive for such a long period of time without the aid of science?

The idea of having 4 Gundam Meisters taking on a huge army of ace pilots from the Alliance (possibly US + Russia + UN) and the Chinese Federation (China + Russia) is actually a bit over-doing it. Even would Ms. Sumeragi, the expert strategist, it would still be too much to handle. It's not like that the A-Laws have weak mobile suits. In fact, their mobile suits can take on the Gundams without difficult. As for Mister Bushido's customized mobile suit, it can take on the Setsuna's 00 at ease. Isn't the job of the Celestial Being a "mission impossible"?

However, the creator of the Gundam series, the one who came up with all these politics, military-related issues, and government types is definitely a genius worthy of praise! (^-^)
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Old 2008-11-18, 15:04   Link #220
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The new Gundam anime seems to be implying that the Alliance forces are doing terrible things to the people in the Middle East, which is probably true. At the same time, the Chinese Federation and the Russians aren't very kind to them either, they are doing other types of conspiracies.

Thus, it is the job of the Celestial Beings (based in space) to ensure and maintain balance of the world, saving the Middle East from exploit and destruction. It is unclear however concerning the Celestial Being's headquarters. Are the Gundam Meisters former human beings or current human beings? Can the Celestial Beings be considered as aliens or not? After all, the mastermind of Celestial Being, Aeolia Schenberg is well over 200 years old. Can a person survive for such a long period of time without the aid of science?

The idea of having 4 Gundam Meisters taking on a huge army of ace pilots from the Alliance (possibly US + Russia + UN) and the Chinese Federation (China + Russia) is actually a bit over-doing it. Even would Ms. Sumeragi, the expert strategist, it would still be too much to handle. It's not like that the A-Laws have weak mobile suits. In fact, their mobile suits can take on the Gundams without difficult. As for Mister Bushido's customized mobile suit, it can take on the Setsuna's 00 at ease. Isn't the job of the Celestial Being a "mission impossible"?

However, the creator of the Gundam series, the one who came up with all these politics, military-related issues, and government types is definitely a genius worthy of praise! (^-^)
In the second season the Federation was engaging in a campaign of intimidation with a energy embargo to force them to except Federation member ship. The Earth Sphere Federation the successor organization to the United Nations that began with the three major powers (Union, HRL, AEU). This campaign against Azsadistan ended with a unidentified mobile suit destroying the capital opening the country to invasion and occupation and eventual reorganization by the Federation.

In the first season the fossil fuel exporting counties were under a strict UN lead fossil fuel export embargo. The value of the fossil fuel had fallen since the advent of the solar energy network. This caused many countries to become unstable devolving in to a state of civil war and ethnic strife which has been going on for twenty years.

Last edited by miles316; 2008-11-18 at 15:15.
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