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Old 2007-11-21, 08:43   Link #21
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae
4Tran, allow me to add your view into my first post.
Please feel free to do so.

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Originally Posted by Tak
Certainly not in 00's world, which is what this discussion is about. If you just look at it, the whole thing is ran by Chinese people, and I have yet see a single Indian appearing on the show. Maybe later, but you have to wonder what role they would play.
Russia and India are important enough for them to be described as two of the founding members of the HRL. While China may control the power bloc, the other countries are by no means irrelevant.

As a side note, Indians are, based on their percentage of the world's population, one of the most underrepresented groups in anime.

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Originally Posted by Tak
But as I have stated, I do not know why a fourth organization failed to appear, which again, includes countries like Australia, Korea, Taiwan and Japan itself. It may even extend to the Philippines if necessary.
<SNIP>
Handled by financially and politically stable governments, which the countries of the fourth organization I proposed all qualify. As I said, they have yet properly explained 'why not'. Therefore, it IS possible, but certainly not possible now since the arrangements were already made.

Besides, if the AEU can play power-trailer, so could they.
One of the problems with your proposed fourth power is that it'd be geographically dispersed, low in population, and most of it is far too close to the HRL for comfort. It'd only be a matter of time until they (or at least the Asian portions) were dominated by the larger power.
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Old 2007-11-21, 10:26   Link #22
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Russia and India are important enough for them to be described as two of the founding members of the HRL. While China may control the power bloc, the other countries are by no means irrelevant.
SoldierOfDarkness had mentioned:

"None of the Asian powers would even think of having Japan join them so the only other option would be the US if Japan wants to survive."

So I simply pointed out, that in 00's world, its China that is picking the alliances, not anyone else. Had this been the real world, India would feel very comfortable in an alliance with Japan. In fact, that is also happening right now, especially since India and China simply does not get along, at all!

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As a side note, Indians are, based on their percentage of the world's population, one of the most underrepresented groups in anime.
Along with Africans/Black persons and Middle-Easterners. Now, before everyone jump the gun on the latter, please tell me, how often do anime depict Middle-Easterners as they are? How often do we see a 'brown' dude? Oh, and add Koreans to the list, there just isn't that many of 'em.

No, Marina does not look Middle-Eastern. Her character design reminds me of a stereotypical Chinese in anime.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
One of the problems with your proposed fourth power is that it'd be geographically dispersed, low in population, and most of it is far too close to the HRL for comfort. It'd only be a matter of time until they (or at least the Asian portions) were dominated by the larger power.
*Shrug* and yet Japan get to choose. You and I both know that Japan would be one of the biggest target on China's hate list. Then again, its 00, made in Japan, so Japan must have political room.

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Originally Posted by Pride View Post
Soma Peiris
Could have fooled me, they sure don't look the part. Although my question is still not answered in the anime, what part do Indians play? Waiters-for-hire in stations? What?

- Tak (Will the real Raj Patel please stand up?)
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Old 2007-11-21, 12:17   Link #23
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Tak
So I simply pointed out, that in 00's world, its China that is picking the alliances, not anyone else. Had this been the real world, India would feel very comfortable in an alliance with Japan. In fact, that is also happening right now, especially since India and China simply does not get along, at all!
In 300 years' time, I doubt that the policies of the nations would be dictated by how they feel about certain countries today. Having said that, Gundam 00 is very much taking that approach, so it'd make more sense to think of it as taking place in 2077 instead of 2307. by the way, in the real world, why wouldn't China want Japan in its power bloc? They'd be able to run roughshod over Japanese policies, national institutions and pride all they wanted!

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Originally Posted by Tak
*Shrug* and yet Japan get to choose. You and I both know that Japan would be one of the biggest target on China's hate list. Then again, its 00, made in Japan, so Japan must have political room.
By the same reasoning above, I don't think that Japan is a very good fit as a member of the Union either. It's sort of akin to a situation like the U.S. controlling Crimea throughout the Cold War.


Off-topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Along with Africans/Black persons and Middle-Easterners. Now, before everyone jump the gun on the latter, please tell me, how often do anime depict Middle-Easterners as they are? How often do we see a 'brown' dude? Oh, and add Koreans to the list, there just isn't that many of 'em.

No, Marina does not look Middle-Eastern. Her character design reminds me of a stereotypical Chinese in anime.
It may be surprising, but there are more Indians than there are Africans in the world (especially if you count Pakistan and Bengladesh as well).

Marina is likely Persian, and Persians are an Aryan people whereas the Middle East is ususally associated with Arabs who are a Semetic people. I don't really think that her appearance is too out of place (besides, stereotypical anime Chinese don't look all that much like real Chinese).
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Old 2007-11-21, 12:45   Link #24
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
In 300 years' time, I doubt that the policies of the nations would be dictated by how they feel about certain countries today. Having said that, Gundam 00 is very much taking that approach, so it'd make more sense to think of it as taking place in 2077 instead of 2307.
Thus, as I mentioned before, to make that arrangement as they have in 00, the Chinese must, in someway, force India and Russia to recognize its military supremacy. After all, do you not think the Russians and the Indians have something to say about a Chinese-dominated union?

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
by the way, in the real world, why wouldn't China want Japan in its power bloc? They'd be able to run roughshod over Japanese policies, national institutions and pride all they wanted!
Of course they do, and I mentioned how obscure it is for the Japanese to actually side with the Union (which you also noted) when they are on China's hate list? And as I point out, if Japan actually gets to pick sides and join the union, if in some way that is plausible, then the same token could apply to Korea and Taiwan.


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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Marina is likely Persian, and Persians are an Aryan people whereas the Middle East is ususally associated with Arabs who are a Semetic people. I don't really think that her appearance is too out of place (besides, stereotypical anime Chinese don't look all that much like real Chinese).
Thats irrelevant. Although Iran is more on the Orient side, they are unfortunately categorized into the Middle-Eastern group. And although Iran does speak a different language (but they also speak Arabic to a degree), most people just can't tell the difference. After all, when Persian-Gulf is mentioned, people immediately think Middle-East.

Nonetheless, in one scene, I swear I saw Constantinople, so I am not totally sure if she is Persian. Even if that was the case, then 00 is taking a huge leap in regards to Islamic fundamentalism. Honestly, do you think any Middle-Eastern/Islamic country/region would allow a woman to roam across the world making her own diplomacy while dressing in a manner that would be an affront to Islamic sensitivities?

Of course, stereotypical anime Chinese does not look Chinese, then again, neither do anime Japanese. But in most cases, we can pretty much tell who is supposed to be what.

- Tak
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Old 2007-11-21, 16:02   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Thus, as I mentioned before, to make that arrangement as they have in 00, the Chinese must, in someway, force India and Russia to recognize its military supremacy. After all, do you not think the Russians and the Indians have something to say about a Chinese-dominated union?
Asian Russia. Which isn't the same as today's whole Russia.

Of course, the split remains to be explained.


Quote:
Of course they do, and I mentioned how obscure it is for the Japanese to actually side with the Union (which you also noted) when they are on China's hate list? And as I point out, if Japan actually gets to pick sides and join the union, if in some way that is plausible, then the same token could apply to Korea and Taiwan.
67 years ago, Japan wasn't exactly siding with the Americans. Who knows what it's going to be in another 67 years, let alone 300?



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Nonetheless, in one scene, I swear I saw Constantinople, so I am not totally sure if she is Persian. Even if that was the case, then 00 is taking a huge leap in regards to Islamic fundamentalism. Honestly, do you think any Middle-Eastern/Islamic country/region would allow a woman to roam across the world making her own diplomacy while dressing in a manner that would be an affront to Islamic sensitivities?
Now? No. But apparently they've had three hundred years to experience various forms of government before deciding that monarchy was cool again. Who knows what it's done to their culture?

It's not like they've always been that religious, or always will be.
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Old 2007-11-21, 16:13   Link #26
Tak
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67 years ago, Japan wasn't exactly siding with the Americans. Who knows what it's going to be in another 67 years, let alone 300?
Actually, its not who Japan choose to side with, its why Japan is allowed to side with whom. With the League obviously looming over them, there is no plausible explanation as to why Japan is given the permission to side with the 'Union' when, strategically speaking, Japan would be seen as a thorn to the League. It amuses me to see Japan siding with the Americas when it appears to be more economically convenient for Japan to fall under League influence, even if the whole arrangement is out of whack.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Now? No. But apparently they've had three hundred years to experience various forms of government before deciding that monarchy was cool again. Who knows what it's done to their culture?

It's not like they've always been that religious, or always will be.
They have been exactlythat religious for the past thousand years. This is the same issue with the Real IRA depicted in 00, who simply 'ceased' their operations without a satisfying explanation.

And when you say monarchy, exactly which Middle-Eastern country are you referring to? Clearly we have not yet established that Marina is Persian, Turkish or a member of another Middle-Eastern ethnicity.

- Tak
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Old 2007-11-21, 17:06   Link #27
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Tak
Thus, as I mentioned before, to make that arrangement as they have in 00, the Chinese must, in someway, force India and Russia to recognize its military supremacy. After all, do you not think the Russians and the Indians have something to say about a Chinese-dominated union?

Of course they do, and I mentioned how obscure it is for the Japanese to actually side with the Union (which you also noted) when they are on China's hate list? And as I point out, if Japan actually gets to pick sides and join the union, if in some way that is plausible, then the same token could apply to Korea and Taiwan.
I pretty much agree with you that the power blocs as they exist in 2307 don't jive very well with those nations' current relations. I also don't think that there's much need to discuss how realistic Gundam 00's setting is either.

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Originally Posted by Tak
Actually, its not who Japan choose to side with, its why Japan is allowed to side with whom. With the League obviously looming over them, there is no plausible explanation as to why Japan is given the permission to side with the 'Union' when, strategically speaking, Japan would be seen as a thorn to the League. It amuses me to see Japan siding with the Americas when it appears to be more economically convenient for Japan to fall under League influence, even if the whole arrangement is out of whack.
I believe it's more a case of the animators not wanting to depict Japan playing second fiddle to China - a very distinct possibility in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Now? No. But apparently they've had three hundred years to experience various forms of government before deciding that monarchy was cool again. Who knows what it's done to their culture?
From what I can gather, Azadistan decided to reinstate the monarchy specifically for Marina, so it must be an extremely new decision.



Off-topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Thats irrelevant. Although Iran is more on the Orient side, they are unfortunately categorized into the Middle-Eastern group. And although Iran does speak a different language (but they also speak Arabic to a degree), most people just can't tell the difference. After all, when Persian-Gulf is mentioned, people immediately think Middle-East.
These ideas are mostly perpetuated by ignorance - the UN actually classifies Iran as belonging to the South Asia region (along with Pakistan and India), while the rest of the Middle East is in West Asia. As a matter of fact, Persians and Arabs aren't very fond of one another, which leads to all sorts of problems with reconciling Iran with their western neighbors.

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Originally Posted by Tak
Nonetheless, in one scene, I swear I saw Constantinople, so I am not totally sure if she is Persian. Even if that was the case, then 00 is taking a huge leap in regards to Islamic fundamentalism. Honestly, do you think any Middle-Eastern/Islamic country/region would allow a woman to roam across the world making her own diplomacy while dressing in a manner that would be an affront to Islamic sensitivities?
It can't be Istanbul since Turkey is a member of the AEU. Azadistan is almost certainly Iran.
There's lots of handwaving going on to have the world set up the way it is in Gundam 00, but that sort of goes with the territory. Besides, it's hardly out of place for a Gundam show.
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Old 2007-11-21, 17:53   Link #28
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In our current political climate, Korea, India are more aligned with the US. However, given that it's probably much, much cheaper to get energy from the HRL space elevator, and given that China/Russia would probably require more assistance constructing the space elevator (thus giving minor players much more leverage), I can see how the HRL formed.

This whole distrust of China and belief that it wants to become hegemon seems to implicitly ignore the fact that the Chinese are usually unwilling to commit to armed conflict, especially on a large scale. Ever since the whole 'people's war' doctrine got shown to be laughable in the Sino-Vietnamese conflict, China has realised the futility of such wide ranging 'total war' strategies, and has instead focussed on deterrent power (nuclear) and limited, high tech warfare.

The likelihood that any such high tech conflict can actually succeed is thrown into doubt by the US foray into Iraq. Imagine having to pacify India, the world's second most populous nation!
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Old 2007-11-21, 18:26   Link #29
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kinda off topic but...What happened to Global warming? 300 years from now and it's not an issue?

oww and btw, what happened to our cannabis leaf island? It's not on the map!?!
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Old 2007-11-21, 19:04   Link #30
Tak
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kinda off topic but...What happened to Global warming? 300 years from now and it's not an issue?
I am sure it is an issue, thus explaining the lack of fossil fuels or the lack of will to use them That is why you have solar powered elevators all over the place, so that our ecology can regenerate, slowly but surely.

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This whole distrust of China and belief that it wants to become hegemon seems to implicitly ignore the fact that the Chinese are usually unwilling to commit to armed conflict
Because they are not ready to commit itself in a larger conflict. In other areas however, China has been sending peace mission abroad, cozying up to African countries and luring many 'neutral' Middle-Eastern countries to its side while the US is not looking. Oh yes, the Chinese are highly competitive, and they do have a global agenda. When the time is right, who knows what will happen?

00 takes the assumption that China had taken an aggressive political stance, that is all.

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Ever since the whole 'people's war' doctrine got shown to be laughable in the Sino-Vietnamese conflict, China has realised the futility of such wide ranging 'total war' strategies
What Vietnam showed is not the futility of China's 'absolute' warfare, because I can very well state that, by the same token, it also showed the futility of the United States' 'high tech' warfare. What both countries lacked was willpower, nothing more.

China went into Vietnam with the explicit agenda of displaying its defiance to Moscow, not to conquer the South-Asian country. We know they achieved at least that. There is no evidence to suggest that China ever wanted to totally dominate the region.

Please also note that China commenced the invasion just as the Sino-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Alliance expired.

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and has instead focussed on deterrent power (nuclear) and limited, high tech warfare.
China focused on a high tech military after the United States displayed its capabilities during Operation Desert Storm, not because of China's reaction to Vietnam. Chinese military buildup remained largely unknown during the 80s, but after Desert Storm, Chinese military spending begin to grow by leaps and bounds. Many experts suggest that China's actual defense spending, as of now, may already be 25% ~ 50% of the total US defense spending. The Chinese are also working hard to create an oceanic navy, including plans for the creation of a fully functional naval battle group that includes nuclear-powered submarines and carriers. One has to wonder why such a peace-loving, unwilling-to-commit-to-conflict, mellow nation must go through such drastic measures to acquire an oceanic navy.

Besides, historically, China had been the world's sole superpower for a very, very long time. Ever since that title is robbed from them, you don't think they will get pissed?

I goto China these days, and very often, I am reminded of the Opium Wars as well as unfair treaties that European countries forced upon China during the late 18th ~ 19th century. Then there is the whole nationalistic sentiment that engulfs China, which not even the CCP can do much to control.

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Imagine having to pacify India, the world's second most populous nation!
Good, at least here you are agreeing with us. Based on this topic's prior posts, we've already discussed the problems and conflicts that may be involved in a Chinese dominated 'League'.

- Tak

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Old 2007-11-21, 19:05   Link #31
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kinda off topic but...What happened to Global warming? 300 years from now and it's not an issue?
Maybe there was a big long continuous volcanic eruption (though smaller scale than at Deccan Traps say) or similar event that kept the planet cool for a long time in the early 21st century and so nobody bothered to reform their dependence on fossil fuels - which is why they've now run out.

Or... Maybe the whole reason why the world's only just run out of fossil fuels is that they managed to reduce usage enough to mean reserves lasted a lot longer than otherwise. But then, where's either nuclear power or lots of renewable energy?

Or maybe there was some serious global warming in late 21st and 22nd centuries but it's now abated somewhat and no longer considered worth mentioning?

Still, I do wonder why the AEU elevator port is out at sea. Seems like worst place to put it (what with hurricanes etc...)
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Old 2007-11-21, 19:54   Link #32
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In 300 years' time, I doubt that the policies of the nations would be dictated by how they feel about certain countries today. Having said that, Gundam 00 is very much taking that approach, so it'd make more sense to think of it as taking place in 2077 instead of 2307. by the way, in the real world, why wouldn't China want Japan in its power bloc? They'd be able to run roughshod over Japanese policies, national institutions and pride all they wanted!
No it won't. The current political climates, especially in asia, derived from not only a hundred years time, but even as far as ancient times. The sort of hands-off alliance between China and Korea has been there for 2000 years. Two THOUSAND years.

And Japanese conflicts and foreign policy issues have been lingering for around 300 years to modern day.

Another 300 years will be like another day in history. They will not simply forget and make nice immediately.

As for the Asian alliance, I agree India and Korea most definitely would not just jump in on a Chinese bandwagon. If anything, they'd mostly join Union for their American/Western style economies they're running. I actually expect Japan to join up instead of siding with some Russo/Chinese alliance they never were friendly to.
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Old 2007-11-21, 20:23   Link #33
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Or... Maybe the whole reason why the world's only just run out of fossil fuels is that they managed to reduce usage enough to mean reserves lasted a lot longer than otherwise. But then, where's either nuclear power or lots of renewable energy?
As I suggested in the past, since the building of the Elevators is extremely energy intensive, fission power was probably what kept the construction-effort going. That alone could accelerate the consumption of fission materials, especially since the day-to-day usage of electricity by civilians in these periods would have to be from fission too. Only a small percentage of current electricity generation is from nuclear power plants, so if that ratio was to increase dramatically the amount of fissionable materials won't last long either.
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Old 2007-11-21, 20:39   Link #34
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No it won't. The current political climates, especially in asia, derived from not only a hundred years time, but even as far as ancient times. The sort of hands-off alliance between China and Korea has been there for 2000 years. Two THOUSAND years.

As for the Asian alliance, I agree India and Korea most definitely would not just jump in on a Chinese bandwagon. If anything, they'd mostly join Union for their American/Western style economies they're running. I actually expect Japan to join up instead of siding with some Russo/Chinese alliance they never were friendly to.
The relationship between Korea and China for the last two thousand years was hardly an alliance, but rather partial subjugation. The Chinese Empire incorporated Korea & Vietnam ever since the later periods of the Qin Dynasty, and a world order maintained until the Europeans screwed it up in favor for a not-so-much-better alternative. Although I cannot speak for Koreans or Vietnamese people and analyze just what positive or negative effects Chinese culture impacted their society. Regardless, the Koreans are very vocal about their historical past these days, focusing not only their relationships with Japan, but also China, especially anything relating to history.

So I can imagine Koreans being bitter about having to be stuck between two overwhelming powers.

Although most Asian countries still retain the usage of Chinese characters to a degree. After all, Northern Chinese at the time must have been like Latin to Western Europe.

On the second part of your discussion, we have noted the degree of plausibility of India, Korea, Japan and Taiwan jumping on the Chinese bandwagon, and it appears only Japan prevailed in seceding from it. Although the question remains, how did Japan do it? After all, not only is Japan on China's hate list, but strategically speaking, they are actually quite valuable.

Unfortunately, I have yet to see an explanation.

- Tak (And I am certain most Indians retained their previous occupations before joining the League, which is none other than tech-support itself! No wonder we don't see them on screen that often, they need to get out more! Har!)
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Old 2007-11-21, 21:04   Link #35
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As for Korea, it wasn't exactly subjugation because in the ancient Korean dynasties, it really was a bit of an alliance.

Remember that in the Japanese invasion of Korea, it was the Chinese that lent their help to drive them out. And the result wasn't an occupied Korea. Chinese forces went back to their empire. So I doubt it was entirely a hostile thing. Actually, it really was a sort of a standoff (Zero sum game anyone? Ancient Korean kingdoms were pretty powerful entities. I doubt they'd risk an open war just for subjugation).

As for Japan not joining the alliance, I think it's most likely that a non-military convention continued into the future and Japan may have become a sort of a special economic zone (durr. referring to the way it was described).

And I wonder about their strategic importance compared to let's say: Switzerland, another nation that is a bit more successful in maintaining a relatively neutral stance. Perhaps that is where they're going with Japan there.

If there was any singular strategic nation in Eastern Asia right now, it has to be South Korea due to its massive military and vicinity towards Taiwan and Japan. It's ironic since Korea used to be a strategic landmass for millenniums. As for economic pull, I don't see why Japan wouldn't have joined the Union other than Gundam 00 writers wanting to put it in a special category as a nation.
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Old 2007-11-21, 21:29   Link #36
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Remember that in the Japanese invasion of Korea, it was the Chinese that lent their help to drive them out. And the result wasn't an occupied Korea. Chinese forces went back to their empire. So I doubt it was entirely a hostile thing. Actually, it really was a sort of a standoff (Zero sum game anyone? Ancient Korean kingdoms were pretty powerful entities. I doubt they'd risk an open war just for subjugation).
Lets get one thing straight, most of the armies participating in that particular anti-Japanese crusade were Chinese, not Koreans. The Chinese summoned a 200,000 +/- strong army during the first invasion, and another 200,000 +/- during the second. While the Koreans performed adequate on sea, their armies were falling like trees. During the Japanese invasion, Korean armies were completely inadequate to meet the challenges posed by their Japanese invaders. Although thats hardly surprising, as the Koreans never expected Japan to even invade Korea, it came as a shock to them that this ever happened!

During the course of the war, Korea was never able to summon an army larger than 30,000 men, and with the Japanese closing onto China's front-yard (Manchuria), obviously the Ming Dynasty couldn't just sit there and wait for the whole thing to be over. The last thing the Chinese wanted was to have somebody violating their northern boarders. Chinese foreign policy during the time take that possibility very seriously, and with wars against the Mongols still in process, the Chinese were simply not in the mood for an additional enemy, wherever they came from. Otherwise, initially, the Ming Dynasty was more willing to wait it out, hoping the Koreans and Japanese armies to exhaust themselves.

As for your claim on how ancient Korean kingdoms were supposedly strong and unified, let me remind you that Korea was subjugated during the times of China's Han Dynasty, the Three Kingdoms, the Tang Dynasty, the Song Dynasty, the Ming Dynasty and later the Qing Dynasty. When Korea was able to maintain its autonomy, it was also during a time when China was in chaos. The Koreans prevailed during the Sui Dynasty exactly because it was entering the last stages of its existence, as it was engaged in a series of wars that would later be replaced by a vastly more powerful Tang Dynasty.

The Koreans never made much military expeditions into the mainland, and for a good reason. They know they can't expect to win.

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As for Japan not joining the alliance, I think it's most likely that a non-military convention continued into the future and Japan may have become a sort of a special economic zone (durr. referring to the way it was described).
Except all the evidence today point out to the contrary. Japan is rearming.

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If there was any singular strategic nation in Eastern Asia right now, it has to be South Korea due to its massive military and vicinity towards Taiwan and Japan.
On paper, it is true that South Korea posses an army of some half million men. Although you fail to keep in mind that they are there, mostly for the purpose of deterring North Korea, which has an army in the millions, despite how outdated they may be. I am not even factoring the 400,000 strong Northern China army stationed at the boarders of North Korea.

How much can the SK Army do when an emergency occurs remain to be seen. Although I highly doubt it can take much punishment once China decides to join the fray.

- Tak
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Old 2007-11-21, 21:43   Link #37
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A thing: If you don't know much about Northeast Asian history, watch what you say. I'll leave it at that.



I'll also say this: It isn't for nothing that Korean Dynasties lasted for over 500 years, while Chinese ones broke down much faster. Also, the current PRC can't handle a limited war on Manchuria unless they bring out the nukes.
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Old 2007-11-21, 21:56   Link #38
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As a Korean, you obviously have your own perspective while the Chinese have theirs. You can claim your case, but so can they. So don't tell people that they know nothing, for Chinese people can easily say the same things to you.

Chinese dynasties do not break down much faster. Most good ones would last 400 years or more. The Shang Dynasty of China lasted more than 800 years.

As for the last part of your statement, I can just imagine some Chinese person walking up to you and say "If you don't know much about current Chinese affairs, watch what you say. I'll leave it at that."

But what the heck, I am not Chinese

- Tak (Besides, guess who got Korea's back covered all these years? The last time Korea wanted evidence of their failure, it came through China's front-yard carrying a Mongol yak)
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Old 2007-11-21, 22:24   Link #39
Itadakimasu!
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The Chinese military doctrine right up until the 70s was one of large scale manouvre and 'human-wave' type attacks as seen in Korea in the 50's. What worked in one battlefield failed in Vietnam because the Vietnamese employed asymmetric warfare.

Much of the technology employed in S-V was Korean Warfare era stuff, and the Chinese were outgunned by the VA. Chinese military modernization began in the 80s, not the 90s, after 1979.

Simply stating that the Chinese "are highly competitive" and "have an agenda" simply attaches labels that can be placed on any self interested nation: It is their methods of attaining success, not their desire for it that we are interested in.

Blue Water navies are a sign of world power, not of aggression. Otherwise the USA would be the greatest aggressor of all. Furthermore the accusation that China will get "very pissed" about its "global leadership" is thoroughly flawed:

1. The British, French powers should be equally annoyed at their decline
2. What about the Japanese? Being forced to lose their imperial aspirations... do the majority of Japanese citizens HATE the US for forcing them to go to war in WW2 by cutting crude oil supplies and enforcing a trade embargo on a nation made destitute by the Great Depression?

Assumptions that a nation will be "annoyed" because they lose their power tend to reflect the current superpower's fear of being overtaken and are purely speculative in that they apply broad generalizations to something as complicated and intricate as foreign policy.

Chinese leadership (and Asian leadership in general) is usually rather subtle and passive. Look at Tokugawa Era Japan, Qing Dynasty China... stability was the key. Hirohito's Japan and the Meiji Era were exceptions to the rule as Japan adopted quintessentially European strategic policies (such as the desire for colonies).

China Looks to Africa as a boon for its industrialization. 200 Years ago, the way these resources were exploited was through colonialism. Today, it is through diplomacy. As abhorrent as China's non interventionism is, it isn't motivated by a desire to "take over" Africa so much as to ensure continued access to raw materials.

Over their history China has showed little of the aggressive expansion of many other nations. Confucianism is the key to this, and confucian values of stable government and judicious rule is anathema to the instability wrought by warfare. Why else do you think the Cultural Revolution attempted to do away with the 'old' (with so little success I might add?")

Regarding the Nationalist sentiment, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I'm an Australian national who immigrated from China when I was 3. When the anti-Japanese riots occurred in recent years I was disgusted because this sort've thing happened in Weimar Germany and Imperial Japan and lead down the road to destruction.

However, Chinese nationalism has always been centred not on "destroying the other" but on ensuring that China is safe. That is why Taiwan is viewed as such an important issue. it is purely reactionary as opposed to Bethman Hollweg's "sonderweg" (special path, probably spelt wrongly) in Germany in the 1890s (which helped fracture European relations and lead to WW1) or Japan's militarist inculcation of its populace in the Showa restoration

Chinese Nationalism is also (to be honest) rather facile in that it isn't exactly deep seated. "Boycotts" of Japanese goods usually don't end up occurring to any major extent... Why? Because you underestimate a population's desire for wealth and affluence. The chinese have been poorly led and managed over the 20th century. With capitalism and the ability to manage their own lives (to an extent), many people truly care more for their own wealth than for the nation. Apathy is rampant and shows of nationalism for all we know have no depth.

Simply implying that China has the intent to dominate is laughable because of the enormous problems of implementation. Are you seriously suggesting China somehow subjugated India and kept them willingly within the HRL for all this time? Nationalism of any kind whether it be aggressive or latent would prevent any nation today from succeeding in such an enormous venture.


My theory is that nations banded together because of MUTUAL difficulties, difficulties that would drive adversaries to cooperate. Russia is only aligned with China today because of the US. Is it simply too difficult to imagine that Russia, China and India would pool their resources together and integrate in such a way as to ensure that they remained a global force, albeit united?Historical Precedents for this are rife.
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Old 2007-11-21, 22:29   Link #40
Kang Seung Jae
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
As a Korean, you obviously have your own perspective while the Chinese have theirs. You can claim your case, but so can they. So don't tell people that they know nothing, for Chinese people can easily say the same things to you.

Chinese dynasties do not break down much faster. Most good ones would last 400 years or more. The Shang Dynasty of China lasted more than 800 years.

As for the last part of your statement, I can just imagine some Chinese person walking up to you and say "If you don't know much about current Chinese affairs, watch what you say. I'll leave it at that."

- Tak (Besides, guess who got Korea's back covered all these years? The last time Korea wanted evidence of their failure, it came through China's front-yard carrying a Mongol yak)
It's not the matter of being a Korean, but a person who's been in the military long enough to know the current power status.

China cannot mobilize its entire forces to Manchuria in a few days, and their air force is too weak to handle Korea ATM. If North Korea wasn't an issue, the China would break with trying to have enough forces to counter Korea AND Taiwan.


Of course, in the future, things might change, but thinking Korea was always a weak country, kowtowing to the "Middle" Kingdom is one-sided propaganda.
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