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Old 2007-11-26, 15:02   Link #61
Honey_and_Cleaver
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Well gundam is just a japanese concept of the future world or gundamXreality. The truth is, building a large solar pillar up into space is bull, a pillar like that cant stand on the gravity of space

Secondly, theres a new technology where you can use fission cores which produce 100 times the energy of a nuclear reactor, but the problem is that its very difficult to build with the current technology.

Third, rather than using space technology to build solar space stations, near in orbit, theres a large methane gas cloud that can be harvested for energy.

Fourth, nuclear energy cant be used in different countries besides first world, which means it is not very fair because the first world has better energy production and that the rest is not trusted to use because of the use of nuclear weapons(so they say in which to monopoly)

Fifth, Nano technology

Gundam concept has lots of contridictions where its not viable, its just a point of view and nothing else to be taken seriously
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Old 2007-11-26, 17:00   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
Well gundam is just a japanese concept of the future world or gundamXreality. The truth is, building a large solar pillar up into space is bull, a pillar like that cant stand on the gravity of space
Actually, space elevators are entirely possible. The cost would be in the materials, not the physics. The advantages of such an elevator for large-scale orbital construction, though, would be second to mass drivers. The space elevator article in wiki is actually passably decent.


Quote:
Secondly, theres a new technology where you can use fission cores which produce 100 times the energy of a nuclear reactor, but the problem is that its very difficult to build with the current technology.
Actually, the problem is that no one can create a controlled, economically beneficial fission reaction for any viable period of time.

Sure, 00 could solve the energy crisis with fission, but what would be the point? Solar energy and everything around it is key to the plot, the background, and the technology. It'd be a awfully short series if energy was so cheap that government couldn't meter it. It would also keep the mega-blocks from forming.

Quote:
Third, rather than using space technology to build solar space stations, near in orbit, theres a large methane gas cloud that can be harvested for energy.
While I would like to hear a source (even wiki will do) of this cloud, a few problems. One, it's actually easier to perform actions in orbit than in the atmosphere proper, because in the (relative) weightlessness of orbit or the lerange points, it's easier to perform relative motion than when you have to have a plane that has to fly through the cloud. Then there's the height issue. And then there's the density; ever tried to trap fog in a cup? It's big in volume, but the density is negligible. And it only gets worse the higher in the air you get, especially with the slipstreams and solar wind above it.

And again, what would be the point? Gundam is very much a SPACE anime; even G Gundam and 00 had critical scenes in space. Never needing to go beyond the atmosphere would cramp the literary necessity.


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Fourth, nuclear energy cant be used in different countries besides first world, which means it is not very fair because the first world has better energy production and that the rest is not trusted to use because of the use of nuclear weapons(so they say in which to monopoly)

Previously you had been giving reasons why the 00 setup is impossible; this actually goes against that. If nuclear power is still no-no (even though it actually isn't; civilian nuclear reactors under close inspection are located in various countries around the world I believe), then solar power is an alternative that would be acceptable to the most powerful nation, especially since energy distribution would still be theirs.

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Fifth, Nano technology
Again, what? Are you saying that nanotech would negate 00, or what? Nanotech is best for making materials, not actual sentient computers if that's what you're getting at. Materials like those of the space elevator, for example, or the very specific example of the Union Flag's armor.
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Old 2007-11-27, 03:43   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
Well gundam is just a japanese concept of the future world or gundamXreality. The truth is, building a large solar pillar up into space is bull, a pillar like that cant stand on the gravity of space
As said by Dean_the_Young space elevator are possible, they also give more benefits when you are trying to make space colonies or launch spacecraft as it help reduces the cost of shipping materials in orbit.


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Gundam concept has lots of contridictions where its not viable, its just a point of view and nothing else to be taken seriously
Why are you still watching it then ?

Last edited by FRS; 2007-11-27 at 05:52. Reason: missing word
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Old 2007-11-27, 04:53   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
The truth is, building a large solar pillar up into space is bull, a pillar like that cant stand on the gravity of space
While still beyond our current ability to construct, the principles and concept of a space elevator are scientifically feasible. The only hurdle to its construction is the technology, resources and motivation to do so.

Might want to read up on these to learn more about how Space Elevators work, and how seriously the concept is being examined today:

http://www.spaceelevator.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator
http://www.space.com/businesstechnol..._020327-1.html
http://www.space.com/businesstechnol...or_040629.html
http://www.liftport.com/
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast07sep_1.htm

In fact, a simple search on "Space Elevators" will provide much fruit if you're trying to find information on the underlying concepts of a space elevator.
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Old 2007-11-27, 06:25   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Actually, space elevators are entirely possible. The cost would be in the materials, not the physics. The advantages of such an elevator for large-scale orbital construction, though, would be second to mass drivers. The space elevator article in wiki is actually passably decent.
Resources and the physics, ive read on them, but its mostly theoratical, counter weight problems and thus, but nothing is quite impossible in physics, there is always many problems, one is this project is risky, and when you invest a lot of resources in this, something wrong might happen, miscalculation, it always happens even in pyhsics, in space, the risk involved and the resources is too high unless there is nano technology to produce a lot of materials and cheaply.


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Actually, the problem is that no one can create a controlled, economically beneficial fission reaction for any viable period of time.
I believe a research on this technology would be the most resource conservative course of action. Even the plasma confinement technology.

Quote:
Sure, 00 could solve the energy crisis with fission, but what would be the point? Solar energy and everything around it is key to the plot, the background, and the technology. It'd be a awfully short series if energy was so cheap that government couldn't meter it. It would also keep the mega-blocks from forming.
The distribution of the energy is the problem, why cant it be done with fission too? Like i said, Gundam 00 is just an idea that nothing in it should actually be taken seriously, the space elevator was probrably to spark interest for people, but eventually over the years, people will develope new ideas and the space elevator idea will be obsolete

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While I would like to hear a source (even wiki will do) of this cloud, a few problems. One, it's actually easier to perform actions in orbit than in the atmosphere proper, because in the (relative) weightlessness of orbit or the lerange points, it's easier to perform relative motion than when you have to have a plane that has to fly through the cloud. Then there's the height issue. And then there's the density; ever tried to trap fog in a cup? It's big in volume, but the density is negligible. And it only gets worse the higher in the air you get, especially with the slipstreams and solar wind above it.
Its not in wiki, its in my physics and chemistry text book, read on astronomy about the gas clouds in space that could be used for energy, but theres many complications into it, but i wouldnt think it would be impossible in the near future. Actually is just that my lecturer and many other scientist just suggested it.

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And again, what would be the point? Gundam is very much a SPACE anime; even G Gundam and 00 had critical scenes in space. Never needing to go beyond the atmosphere would cramp the literary necessity.
I just wanted to state that the point of gundam is just fictional and nothing is to be taken seriously, however there are many view points and possibilities that can happen in the near future, its nothing but a squabble between energon cubes just like transformers.

Quote:

Previously you had been giving reasons why the 00 setup is impossible; this actually goes against that. If nuclear power is still no-no (even though it actually isn't; civilian nuclear reactors under close inspection are located in various countries around the world I believe), then solar power is an alternative that would be acceptable to the most powerful nation, especially since energy distribution would still be theirs.
Isnt that the same as gundam 00, even with solar power, people are still fighting for energy because the powerful nations control its power distribution, because the lack of trust or just for sheer monopoly and domination. But energy is never the problem, its the politics, nuclear energy is dangerous, but nobody is foolish enough to use it unless theyre suicidal, powerful countries are just affraid that they cant invade this countries if they have nuclear capability.

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Again, what? Are you saying that nanotech would negate 00, or what? Nanotech is best for making materials, not actual sentient computers if that's what you're getting at. Materials like those of the space elevator, for example, or the very specific example of the Union Flag's armor.
The materials to produce energy too, in physics, all scientist says nano technology is god technology, no one can think of anything beyond that, and who holds nano technology in their hands is god, but its still way way way to go, but i dont think thats a problem in the near future. But nano technology is dangerous, but its the weapon of god, why is it isnt. Theres always risk to everything. But there isnt the problem, its just politics.
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Old 2007-11-27, 06:39   Link #66
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Just great... Here we go again. Historically first it was fission power, then it was genetics, and now its nanotech...

Nano technology isn't some philosopher's stone, it can't create energy because it follows the first law of thermodynamics. You are just throwing the term around with complete disregard of its limitations, yet in the same time claiming Space Elevator's limitations as insurmountable.

Feel free to argue the difficulties of Space elevator construction, but to claim nanotechnology as superior and magically all-powerful is entirely unscientific. Worse, it is groundless.
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Old 2007-11-27, 06:52   Link #67
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I wouldn't jump the gun on nanotechnology because the technology is so unknown.

It'd be like talking about Star Trek style atom materialization technique. The potential is there, but right now, it's nothing but fantasy. Can't put a finger on technology that doesn't exist yet.

But I have to say that the reckoning of energy resources will have to come eventually. I'm thinking hydrogen usage for extremely efficient hybrid-style cars is the thing of the future (obviously using a much better engine/power/energy system than the fledgling system now).

Mine the moon for fuel!
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Old 2007-11-27, 07:02   Link #68
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I wouldn't jump the gun on nanotechnology because the technology is so unknown.

It'd be like talking about Star Trek style atom materialization technique. The potential is there, but right now, it's nothing but fantasy. Can't put a finger on technology that doesn't exist yet.

But I have to say that the reckoning of energy resources will have to come eventually. I'm thinking hydrogen usage for extremely efficient hybrid-style cars is the thing of the future (obviously using a much better engine/power/energy system than the fledgling system now).

Mine the moon for fuel!
The 00 universe is already a Hydrogen-based economy. Hydrogen plasma jets is what keeps the flying MS in the air. Keep in mind that Hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy transport system. That's why in somewhere like 00, a real energy source like Solar power is needed to maintain hydrogen production above demand.
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Old 2007-11-27, 10:15   Link #69
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I wouldn't jump the gun on nanotechnology because the technology is so unknown.
Combined with chemistry and materials, nano could perhaps be used in part to develop very small electronics, say a palmtop which can absorb heat from one's hand, or a casing that draws in minimal solar power. But we're talking a very expensive, very small reacharging AAA battery here with nich utility, and not an economically viable way of harvesting energy.

Similar with the gas cloud idea; there's no way it would ever be viable to fly a plane into the upper atmosphere to collect gas. The energy cost to collect, let alone process, would be incredibally high, and even the most extreme harvests would bring back marginal energy. When compared to building a fleet of solar panels in the deserts of the world, or tapping much closer, natural, and renewable energy sources, simple economy will take effect.

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Just great... Here we go again. Historically first it was fission power, then it was genetics, and now its nanotech...
And before that it was steam (steampunk), electricity (death rays), radio (tinfoil hat conspiracies), x-rays, and more!
Quote:
Nano technology isn't some philosopher's stone, it can't create energy because it follows the first law of thermodynamics. You are just throwing the term around with complete disregard of its limitations, yet in the same time claiming Space Elevator's limitations as insurmountable.

Feel free to argue the difficulties of Space elevator construction, but to claim nanotechnology as superior and magically all-powerful is entirely unscientific. Worse, it is groundless.
One thing I will give him is that a orbital elevator most likely would not look like the ones in 00; all the designs and ideas that I've seen can better be described as "teathers" and not as concrete blocks with trains running inside them.
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Old 2007-11-27, 22:33   Link #70
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I really don't like the concept of the orbital elevator, it's not nearly as dramatic as shooting something up into space, and seems to be an undertaking of mythical proportions.
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Old 2007-11-27, 22:55   Link #71
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I really don't like the concept of the orbital elevator, it's not nearly as dramatic as shooting something up into space, and seems to be an undertaking of mythical proportions.
well, I'd hardly call it more of an undertaking than a space colony. certainly the same types of technologies and resources are required to create it, and unlike most of the colonies (non asteroid/planetoid based at least) there's an actual major material gain for the governments creating them.
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Old 2007-11-30, 01:10   Link #72
Honey_and_Cleaver
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Just great... Here we go again. Historically first it was fission power, then it was genetics, and now its nanotech...

Nano technology isn't some philosopher's stone, it can't create energy because it follows the first law of thermodynamics. You are just throwing the term around with complete disregard of its limitations, yet in the same time claiming Space Elevator's limitations as insurmountable.

Feel free to argue the difficulties of Space elevator construction, but to claim nanotechnology as superior and magically all-powerful is entirely unscientific. Worse, it is groundless.
What the heck are you talking about, they have successfully made nanotechnology in liquid molecular form, and theyve used basic molecular nano machines for blood fluid to carry oxygen faster that are injected into astronauts,although this are all embryonic stages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology

Theres still sub atomic particles that is not discovered yet, thats why the particle accelerator research must still be done first.
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Old 2007-11-30, 03:42   Link #73
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Honey_and_Cleaver:

I believe you are missing Vallen Chaos Valiant's point: you can manufacture new materials with nanotech, but they will not generate energy by themselves so how are they a solution for a fuel shortage ?
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Old 2007-11-30, 08:21   Link #74
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Honey_and_Cleaver:

I believe you are missing Vallen Chaos Valiant's point: you can manufacture new materials with nanotech, but they will not generate energy by themselves so how are they a solution for a fuel shortage ?
Pretty much. Nano tech can help lower energy costs in a number of ways. Making more efficient solar panels to collect more sunlight, building more efficient energy cables to carry energy from one place to another with less energy lost in between, building lightweight materials that don't need as much power to be used, in boats a nano-tubed hull culled eject airbubbles to drastically reduce friction for high speeds at lower power, and so on.

These are all concrete ways that nano-tech can help reduce energy requirements, but they can't replace it. No matter how good nanotech gets, a battery will never produce more energy than is put in it (though nanotech and space tech could make it so batteries don't leak energy over time). Nanotech can help reactors make more energy, but they can't make it themselves. Nanotech is a catalyst, something that makes it easier for something else to hapen, not an energy source proper.

Capish?
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Old 2007-11-30, 22:59   Link #75
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What the heck are you talking about, they have successfully made nanotechnology in liquid molecular form, and theyve used basic molecular nano machines for blood fluid to carry oxygen faster that are injected into astronauts,although this are all embryonic stages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology

Theres still sub atomic particles that is not discovered yet, thats why the particle accelerator research must still be done first.
I think you're confusing nuclear power with nanotech. If you look closely you'll find that nanotech is the technological means to create more efficient means of converting energy with devices at the atomic level (such as advanced photovolatic cells *hint*hint). It is nothing like atomic fusion or fission which manipulates atoms themselves to convert atomic mass into energy. It's like a regular coal power plant. The coal is your real fuel source which burns to create energy released but the means to convert that energy into electricity is a generator which is powered by steam heated by the coals. Nanotechnology is simply an efficient means to convert the energy captured from sunlight or created by chemical reactions into a usable form (heat, electricity, motion).

Also that medical technology you stated is hardly nanotech.

To bring the subject back to the military/political front. There is a simple reason why china will never try to invade Korea. The cost for an invasion do not justify the gain. Simply put, China is aready trying to keep it's population fed and pacified and a war with Korea (north or south) will simply take too much effort for one tiny portion of Asia with little natural resources and an indigenous people that will fight to the teeth to keep their lands. Even more importantly if China ever gets into any situation where it has to invade another neighbor, you will bet your ass that the Seventh fleet will come in and trample EVERYTHING they can get into firing range. China is not stupid and the last thing it wants is the US taking advantage of the situation. I think this is precisely the reason Japan is in the Union side; if anything goes wrong in the HRL the Union Seventh MS fleet stationed in japan will be there to "intervene" and japan will profit from it. Not to mention the great amount of defensive power should the HRL try to invade.
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Old 2007-12-01, 01:22   Link #76
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Apparently there are several voices who insist that China is going to act in an entirely suicidal fashion by attempting to pacify most of East Asia.

They point to its 'bloodthirsty past' and several rather equivocal instances of 'aggression', before concluding that China is determined to get revanche for all the humiliation it suffered at the hands of everyone else.

They ignore contemporary trends in politics, fundamental shifts in the way nations interact, and above all (as mentioned in the above post), they fail to apply any sort of cost-benefit analysis from an objective perspective, blinded as they are by their irrational concerns.

I'm not going to return to the subject, since its clearly ineffectual for me to simply preach to the converted...

One point I'm interested in is how it is that Venezuela and the other leftwards leaning states simply flopped over and joined the Union. Given the importance of oil exports, I think they'd be vigorously opposed to any oil embargo... any ideas anyone?
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Old 2007-12-01, 02:04   Link #77
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Apparently there are several voices who insist that China is going to act in an entirely suicidal fashion by attempting to pacify most of East Asia.

They point to its 'bloodthirsty past' and several rather equivocal instances of 'aggression', before concluding that China is determined to get revanche for all the humiliation it suffered at the hands of everyone else.

They ignore contemporary trends in politics, fundamental shifts in the way nations interact, and above all (as mentioned in the above post), they fail to apply any sort of cost-benefit analysis from an objective perspective, blinded as they are by their irrational concerns.

I'm not going to return to the subject, since its clearly ineffectual for me to simply preach to the converted...

One point I'm interested in is how it is that Venezuela and the other leftwards leaning states simply flopped over and joined the Union. Given the importance of oil exports, I think they'd be vigorously opposed to any oil embargo... any ideas anyone?
The oil ran out for them, so oil embargoes are no longer their concern. Joining the Union was for no other reason than securing an energy supply, nothing more. It's all about self-interests.

p.s. I was born in Taiwan. So for as long as I am being told that my parents have no right to call Taiwan a country, you can't convince me of China's "peaceful" state of mind.
And have you read my Signature? That was from a Chinese who said my parents deserve to be killed if they resist China's assimilation in the future. That is the kind of people that rule China.
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Old 2007-12-01, 03:40   Link #78
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A slightly more interesting question. What happened during the transition from an oil economy to a orbital solar one? The intro in ep2. claims that the solar array was completed in "less than half a lifetime". I'm assuming 50yrs if the avg. lifetime is 100 years, that still sounds pretty fast. If so then why is the AEU elevator still somewhat incomplete and also which faction did you think put up their elevator first? (the one that started this whole "solar arms race")
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Old 2007-12-01, 04:26   Link #79
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I believe it's the HRL that completed its elevator first.
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Old 2007-12-01, 09:26   Link #80
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I believe it's the HRL that completed its elevator first.
It was confirmed by Mark (the most knowledgeable gundam fan in the Earth Sphere) that the Union was the first to complete their solar elevator. I believe that was from a magazine, which means it could potentially be over-ruled by a explicit quote from the show, but I can't recall one*.

* Well, technically the HRL was having a 10th anniversary party on their tower in episode one, and shortly thereafter the Union President mentions how the economy only stabilized after the completion of the tower 1o years ago, but he doesn't say it was the HRL tower and by the sound of it the HRL wouldn't have shipped energy to the Union anyways even if it could. My guess is that both were finished in the same year, with the Union getting there first.
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