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Old 2007-12-01, 09:40   Link #81
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Uncreative View Post
A slightly more interesting question. What happened during the transition from an oil economy to a orbital solar one? The intro in ep2. claims that the solar array was completed in "less than half a lifetime". I'm assuming 50yrs if the avg. lifetime is 100 years, that still sounds pretty fast. If so then why is the AEU elevator still somewhat incomplete and also which faction did you think put up their elevator first? (the one that started this whole "solar arms race")
The others answered the completion order for you. As for why AEU is so behind on schedule...

I think we have obtained enough evidence within the 00 universe to explain why AEU is falling behind. The AEU is running a comparatively inefficient form of government, because they are way too democratic.
Since unlike the other 2 world powers, the AEU had no single nation taking charge, the AEU would have to argue and negotiate for weeks to get any minor thing done. And even when some sort of majority decision is reached, the minority voting nations would simply refuse to get involved with the plan. So up to a quarter or even a third of AEU's total resources could be unavailable when a task was to be performed.

I prefer to LIVE in a democratic nation. But ruling by democracy is just one huge headache.
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Old 2007-12-01, 09:43   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Uncreative View Post
If so then why is the AEU elevator still somewhat incomplete and also which faction did you think put up their elevator first? (the one that started this whole "solar arms race")
None of the blocs started the "solar energy race". It was stated pretty explicitly in episode 5 that the solar arrays and orbital elevators were designed as a response to the loss of fossil fuels 50 years ago. The designs were probably agreed to by most of the world's powers since there's a ring that spans all three elevators. It's very likely that all three power blocs started construction on their elevators at the same time; it just looks like the AEU is way behind schedule.
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Old 2007-12-01, 11:43   Link #83
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I think the reason why AEU is falling behind is because it spent way more money on its military than the Orbital elevator.

If you noticed, militarily, HRL falls alot behind, since the MSes from the other 2 factions have started using linear-acceleration guns instead of the then considered outdated MG/cannon armaments.
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Old 2007-12-01, 11:49   Link #84
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I think the reason why AEU is falling behind is because it spent way more money on its military than the Orbital elevator.

If you noticed, militarily, HRL falls alot behind, since the MSes from the other 2 factions have started using linear-acceleration guns instead of the then considered outdated MG/cannon armaments.
I doubt that, it was only an official excuse that was dismissed by the Union in episode 1. If AEU had been spending more in its military, then it shouldn't be falling behind in its military hardware right now. Currently AEU is behind in both elevator construction and military strength, so fundamentally there is something weak about AEU.

The fact that AEU could hardly be considered unified, meant it would be weak by default. It has no single leader, which slows down decision making markedly.
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Old 2007-12-01, 11:52   Link #85
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I think the reason why AEU is falling behind is because it spent way more money on its military than the Orbital elevator.

If you noticed, militarily, HRL falls alot behind, since the MSes from the other 2 factions have started using linear-acceleration guns instead of the then considered outdated MG/cannon armaments.
Only two problems with this: the AEU is behind on its military as well, and you could very well be confusing the purpose of the linear rifle.

The AEU is behind with both its military and its orbital tower. The entire purpose of the Enact demonstration on the 10th anniversary of the HRL's tower was to show that the AEU was militarily on par. Even then they didn't invent their own machine; they basically copied the Union Flag and made cosmetic changes. Most of their forces are still Hellions.

Second, you're assuming that the HRL is behind because it lacks a gun the Union invented. Have you considered that the linear rifle was invented specifically to hurt the Tierens? Think about it; both the Union and the AEU use aerial MS, in which rapid fire capability is more advantageous than a single-hit knock out. The only MS that can can reliably be hit by a fully charged, slow-firing linear rifle is the Tieren, which is still on par with the Flag and Enact due to its legendary toughness and reliability. Saying the HRL is inferior because it set the bar for a new type of rifle is a bit of a fallacy, especially when the HRL guns have been just as effective
as the linear rifles.
(There's also the point that Soma's gun when she was shooting at the colony had the exact same visual as a linear rifle.)
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Old 2007-12-01, 12:28   Link #86
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Only two problems with this: the AEU is behind on its military as well, and you could very well be confusing the purpose of the linear rifle.

The AEU is behind with both its military and its orbital tower. The entire purpose of the Enact demonstration on the 10th anniversary of the HRL's tower was to show that the AEU was militarily on par. Even then they didn't invent their own machine; they basically copied the Union Flag and made cosmetic changes. Most of their forces are still Hellions.

Second, you're assuming that the HRL is behind because it lacks a gun the Union invented. Have you considered that the linear rifle was invented specifically to hurt the Tierens? Think about it; both the Union and the AEU use aerial MS, in which rapid fire capability is more advantageous than a single-hit knock out. The only MS that can can reliably be hit by a fully charged, slow-firing linear rifle is the Tieren, which is still on par with the Flag and Enact due to its legendary toughness and reliability. Saying the HRL is inferior because it set the bar for a new type of rifle is a bit of a fallacy, especially when the HRL guns have been just as effective
as the linear rifles.
(There's also the point that Soma's gun when she was shooting at the colony had the exact same visual as a linear rifle.)
The Tierens are armed with smoothbore caliber guns, which means that it is gas-propelled or explosive-propelled, so I doubt it would not be like the linear guns (which is another name for railguns).

You got a point there with the automatic fire, I didn't see that coming. But even the fastest firing weapon would not be of any use against high mobility techniques used by the Flag and Enact, such as circle-strafing and hit-and-run.

Also if you noticed, HRL deploys a far larger number of troops when defending their orbital elevator. Usually what armies cannot make up for quality, they make up for quantity. That is another point that led me into thinking that HRL is technologically backward. Besides, the HRL pilots are not wearing standalone suits, their breathing device is connected to the MS itself.

Soma's gun could be set to semi-automatic I suppose for precision snap-shots, just like 50.cal M2 Browning MG which was modded back in the Vietnam war for anti-material purposes (there isn't a sniper rifle back then with high-caliber rounds).
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Old 2007-12-01, 14:25   Link #87
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The Tierens are armed with smoothbore caliber guns, which means that it is gas-propelled or explosive-propelled, so I doubt it would not be like the linear guns (which is another name for railguns).
I was talking about Soma's weapon, not the standard Tieren.

Quote:
You got a point there with the automatic fire, I didn't see that coming. But even the fastest firing weapon would not be of any use against high mobility techniques used by the Flag and Enact, such as circle-strafing and hit-and-run.
Sure it would be. Which is why anti-air guns are rapid fire and not single shot cannons. In dogfights, fighters with machine guns normally had an edge over those with cannons, even though a single cannon shot would cripple a machine if it hit. The Linear Rifle is made to be able to offer rapid fire as well, so the concept still holds true in 00.

Quote:
Also if you noticed, HRL deploys a far larger number of troops when defending their orbital elevator. Usually what armies cannot make up for quality, they make up for quantity. That is another point that led me into thinking that HRL is technologically backward. Besides, the HRL pilots are not wearing standalone suits, their breathing device is connected to the MS itself.
If you noticed, the AEU had secret fighter bays in their orbital elevator. Does that mean they were low quality, since they had more troops? The tower defenses are limited by treaty, and since the HRL tower is on an island the size of Rhode Island, that kind of knocks out your argument that they tried to defend the tower by force of numbers, since (1) they have the same kind of numbers limit as the other power and (2) simple geography limits how many they can use.

Besides, you're forgetting the point that the HRL actually has a orbital tower while the AEU doesn't, and that there has been no proof or evidence of any kind aside from using older, but still very reliable, mobile suits that the HRL is any less technologically advanced than its rivals. If anything, that title should go to the AEU, which doesn't have an orbital tower, can't even design their own peer suit, and so on.
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Soma's gun could be set to semi-automatic I suppose for precision snap-shots, just like 50.cal M2 Browning MG which was modded back in the Vietnam war for anti-material purposes (there isn't a sniper rifle back then with high-caliber rounds).
Why go for a Vietnam-era design, rather than something more recent. Like the M-16 Assault Rifle, or even one of the newer designs coming out.

And it still doesn't change the fact that it was still the same effect as a linear rifle, whereas the other HRL space mobile suits always used rapid-fire, accurate machine guns. There wouldn't be an advantage in precision just by firing a single shot, but there would be a huge degradation of firepower if she used a machine gun that way. And considering she was firing at a huge honkin space station, and was trying to fire as fast and much lead as possible...
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Old 2007-12-01, 15:27   Link #88
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China hardly qualifies as a peaceful nation, unless by peaceful you mean "ends up being humiliated in the last two hundred years over and over." China has been in more wars than the US, and has been in low intensity conflicts for decades. Sino-Japanese War at the turn of the century, declaring war on Germany as part of WW1, the Sino-Japanese War leading to WW2, the Chinese Civil War, the Korean War, support and "advisors" during the Vietnam War (though Russia was the big sugardaddy), the Chinese-Vietnam War, various border flareups with Russia, war with India, numerous firefights over the Taiwan Straights, various Maoist insurgencies in Africa, Asia, and the Americas, military and economic theft, the list goes on. And you know what? In the last hundred years, the fights with "teh evi1 west" that China has had have been of China's choosing. You can argue that the Chinese people are as peace loving as anyone else, but the Chinese leadership which oversaw Korea, the Great Leap Forward, the Shining Path, and others can hardly be called "peaceloving victims of the west."
Peaceful/peace-loving must be defined by not declaring war on an enemy that threats the country's national security or a common enemy that threats the world? "Yes, we'll just sit here and wait for other countries to take advantage of us, that'll make us peace-loving, alright." Half of the wars you mentioned here were due to the fact that China was under foreign threats. It'd be ridiculous for US not to take military actions if say, Canada starts conquering Alaska or Oregon.

And the same thing can be said about the influences "red scare" had on how western individuals look at China and Russia back then and probably now. The attempt to erase communists from the face of the Earth was no exaggeration during the good old times. Imagine, if China didn't participate in the Korean war, I would not be surprised if it gets invaded by the western alliance near the China-Korea border later on; and I would certainly not be jumping out of my chair if the China we see today becomes a puppet government working for the west as a direct result of this.

Last edited by yangxu; 2007-12-01 at 15:45.
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Old 2007-12-01, 15:40   Link #89
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
I was talking about Soma's weapon, not the standard Tieren.
What I actually meant was that the gun chambered a higher caliber round accelerated the same way, but at a lower velocity as compared to a linear rifle.

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Sure it would be. Which is why anti-air guns are rapid fire and not single shot cannons. In dogfights, fighters with machine guns normally had an edge over those with cannons, even though a single cannon shot would cripple a machine if it hit. The Linear Rifle is made to be able to offer rapid fire as well, so the concept still holds true in 00.
The linear rifle has a fully automatic mode? I thought the shots fly out as fast as the pilot pushes the button. But I don't think it can fire more than 120 RPM.

Quote:
Besides, you're forgetting the point that the HRL actually has a orbital tower while the AEU doesn't, and that there has been no proof or evidence of any kind aside from using older, but still very reliable, mobile suits that the HRL is any less technologically advanced than its rivals. If anything, that title should go to the AEU, which doesn't have an orbital tower, can't even design their own peer suit, and so on.
Another point I would like to point out is Patrick's Enact transformation and mobility as compared to Sergei's flying Tieren Custom. Patrick's is faster, while Sergei's seem pretty much big and bulky. So I would say that HRL is more backward than AEU, in terms of mecha construction. Besides the anime itself seem to show more number of troop deployments in HRL's territory than the other two (in Union we only see a few Flags and a B-2/F117 lookalike). The quantity I meant was not just numbers, but in terms of mass, size and armor too.

Somehow the HRL's Tieren reminded me of being killed while being part of a tank crew. It is so difficult to get out that you are literally cooked alive if the tank is hit.

Quote:
Why go for a Vietnam-era design, rather than something more recent. Like the M-16 Assault Rifle, or even one of the newer designs coming out.

And it still doesn't change the fact that it was still the same effect as a linear rifle, whereas the other HRL space mobile suits always used rapid-fire, accurate machine guns. There wouldn't be an advantage in precision just by firing a single shot, but there would be a huge degradation of firepower if she used a machine gun that way. And considering she was firing at a huge honkin space station, and was trying to fire as fast and much lead as possible...
I was referring to the calibers of the bullets used. A 50. caliber had a more penetrating effect than a 7.62 x 54/39 (pardon me if I get dimensions wrong) AP rounds, and very soon, the 5.56 NATO would be perpetually useless in modern warfare with the advent of body armor.

Maybe the Tieren Taozi was equipped with a higher caliber semi-automatic variant of the smoothbore, as contrasted to a normal one. It might have been modified to suit the "ubersoldat", more sensitive, and the semi-auto function is there to save bullets, and increase chances of hitting per bullet. Maybe the HRL should include an AMBAC system in the guns.

P.S This is an interesting discussion. Most people get turned off when I talk to them about modern/fictional weaponry in detail and I don't get much exchange of information.
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Old 2007-12-01, 15:45   Link #90
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
What I actually meant was that the gun chambered a higher caliber round accelerated the same way, but at a lower velocity as compared to a linear rifle.



The linear rifle has a fully automatic mode? I thought the shots fly out as fast as the pilot pushes the button. But I don't think it can fire more than 120 RPM.



Another point I would like to point out is Patrick's Enact transformation and mobility as compared to Sergei's flying Tieren Custom. Patrick's is faster, while Sergei's seem pretty much big and bulky. So I would say that HRL is more backward than AEU, in terms of mecha construction. Besides the anime itself seem to show more number of troop deployments in HRL's territory than the other two (in Union we only see a few Flags and a B-2/F117 lookalike). The quantity I meant was not just numbers, but in terms of mass, size and armor too.
It's just another design choice (another balance point in the mobility vs armor trade off), not necessarily inferior technology.
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Old 2007-12-01, 17:29   Link #91
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Peaceful/peace-loving must be defined by not declaring war on an enemy that threats the country's national security or a common enemy that threats the world? "Yes, we'll just sit here and wait for other countries to take advantage of us, that'll make us peace-loving, alright." Half of the wars you mentioned here were due to the fact that China was under foreign threats. It'd be ridiculous for US not to take military actions if say, Canada starts conquering Alaska or Oregon.
Ah, so Germany in 1917 posed a threat to China and Asia?

Oh, and now I see that the first Sino-Japanese War was a war for the survival of the Chinese dynasty, and not a silly little power struggle in Korea.

And of course the Korean War was also a threat to China's survival after North Korea invaded with the support of Mao and Stalin.

Oh, and those naughty, naught Vietnamese in 1979. Clearly they were warmongers just like India, the leader of the non-aligned movement, was back in 1962. Naughty, naughty imperialist India.

Those evil Russians in empty, resource rich Siberia. How dare they covet Chinese land and engage in border disputes!

And of course, the regular fire fights over the Taiwan straights are an internal problem, and the opinion of de facto independent Taiwan doesn't much matter.

Maoist insurgencies are in the national defense!




Quote:
And the same thing can be said about the influences "red scare" had on how western individuals look at China and Russia back then and probably now. The attempt to erase communists from the face of the Earth was no exaggeration during the good old times. Imagine, if China didn't participate in the Korean war, I would not be surprised if it gets invaded by the western alliance near the China-Korea border later on; and I would certainly not be jumping out of my chair if the China we see today becomes a puppet government working for the west as a direct result of this.
Yes, clearly China would be invaded just like West Germany, Poland, and Cuba all were. And how numerous other nuclear countries have been invaded.

And of course, living in a democratic society which didn't try such glorious feats as the Great Leap Forward and embrace the Russian economic system for decades would be a horrible, horrible thing because it would mean common causes and interests with teh evil Washington. Clearly the world was divided into "Washington Puppets" and "the Warsaw Pact." Giant, democratic countries like India and others did not exist at all.
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Old 2007-12-01, 22:00   Link #92
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I don't follow your argument Dean. Are you saying that China has been an agressor in previous wars? If so i can agree with that. It's no secret the the PRC has expressed a desire to become a military superpower and in modern times now have the economic power to someday fulfill those ambitions.

But pertaining to Gundam 00 I think that the point was rather how the HRL came to be and it somehow there was an unspoken concenus that China went on expansionist campaign that took over korea, half of russia, indochina, india and ocienia and this new empire is now the HRL (I may be completely off the mark here, feel free to berate me for this). Personally i think considering that we have only seen a couple HRL politicians who have mongoloid features; they could be Koreans or taiwanese for all we know so we can't assume that the PRC calls all the shots in the HRL. Personally i think that china has become so rich and prosperous that it now relies on cheaper labor in India and other countries. (maybe that's why Tierens are behind in MS development, cheap labor = cheap low quality MS) These countires then formed a legaue to pool their labor for the "reformation" of humanitiy.
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Old 2007-12-01, 22:31   Link #93
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Yangxu was making a rather silly argument that China has been an innocent, peace-loving nation, cruely forced into every war by a greedy (and (presumably corrupt). I was using sarcasm to point out the flaws in that argument. Of the 9 actions that could be considered/lead to war in the last century that I know of (I didn't mention the Second Sino-Japanese War, which was purely Japanese), two three if you count Taiwan) were border disputes that could have gone differently had China chosen to be less aggressive, two wars were over Chinese attempts to maintain dominance/influence over puppets/vassals/subordinate allies, one was a undeclared war in which tens of thousands were killed in support of a dictator's unprovoked invasion, and in the meantime the Chinese took to supporting some of the most brutal insurgencies in history, such as the Shining Path Maoists in Central/South America.

In the last 100 years, the one time China was forced into a war with absolutely no real choice was the Second Sino-Japanese War, whcih could hardly be considered a war against "the West," unless you want to be guilty of historical anachronism. All the other ones, and the border disputes and insurgencies have been sustained, wereconscience policy choices of China despite the lack of a real threat to the Chinese people. The Russian nuclear umbrella would have applied equally to China as to Poland, and it was hardly a mystery that Russia was working towards the bomb.

Now, am I saying that China is a land of bloodthirty barbarians? No. But playing the "China is a victim" card isn't exactly supported much by the last century, except in so much that China was a victim of its own leaders, the Japanese, and then its own leaders even worse. As a french sino-phile I know once said, "it's hard to imagine how China could have been worse off than with Mao."
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Old 2007-12-01, 23:16   Link #94
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart
Also if you noticed, HRL deploys a far larger number of troops when defending their orbital elevator. Usually what armies cannot make up for quality, they make up for quantity. That is another point that led me into thinking that HRL is technologically backward.
You're interpreting the evidence wrongly. A military force that can deploy more troops to address a crisis is generally more capable than one that deploys less. This has nothing to do with technological advances, it's simply a matter of military preparedness.

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
Yes, clearly China would be invaded just like West Germany, Poland, and Cuba all were.
Cuba was invaded; it's just that the invasion failed horribly.

Realistically speaking, China is currently immune to invasion, but by a similar token, only Taiwan really has any need to fear a Chinese attack. And even such an attack is impossible within the next couple of decades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncreative
These countires then formed a legaue to pool their labor for the "reformation" of humanitiy.
It's possible that the three power blocs formed in order to build the orbital elevators.
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Old 2007-12-02, 00:50   Link #95
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Ah, so Germany in 1917 posed a threat to China and Asia?

Oh, and now I see that the first Sino-Japanese War was a war for the survival of the Chinese dynasty, and not a silly little power struggle in Korea.

And of course the Korean War was also a threat to China's survival after North Korea invaded with the support of Mao and Stalin.

Oh, and those naughty, naught Vietnamese in 1979. Clearly they were warmongers just like India, the leader of the non-aligned movement, was back in 1962. Naughty, naughty imperialist India.

Those evil Russians in empty, resource rich Siberia. How dare they covet Chinese land and engage in border disputes!

And of course, the regular fire fights over the Taiwan straights are an internal problem, and the opinion of de facto independent Taiwan doesn't much matter.

Maoist insurgencies are in the national defense!

Yes, clearly China would be invaded just like West Germany, Poland, and Cuba all were. And how numerous other nuclear countries have been invaded.

And of course, living in a democratic society which didn't try such glorious feats as the Great Leap Forward and embrace the Russian economic system for decades would be a horrible, horrible thing because it would mean common causes and interests with teh evil Washington. Clearly the world was divided into "Washington Puppets" and "the Warsaw Pact." Giant, democratic countries like India and others did not exist at all.
Clearly you don't know what the word "half" means, do you?

North Korea was attacked by the alliance and was almost pushed back into China, the Chinese should definitely let that happen, hell, they should warmly welcome the alliance armies without thinking twice what would happen if US-supported South Korean gains control of the entire Korea, all because communists and capitalists are friends, right?

Oh and speaking of the Russian/Vietnamnese war, clearly Russia's placement of large number of armies near China's border is an act of friendship, the Chinese should certainly leave it be. And Vietnam's harassments on the southern borders, as well as their declarations on lands that are part of China as theirs is simply a sign of friendship.

Of course, Taiwan is such an unimportant island that will not harm China in anyway, especially when Chiang Kai-shek constantly reminded his army to "counterattack mainland".

And yes, the puppet governments setup in Afghan and Iraq, and the people who were liberated by the US are bound to enjoy democracy despite the numerous civilian deaths and not-so-working of an economy system that followed after.

Clearly your arguments in the following post on Chinese leaders being horrible is nothing but a strong sentiment against communism. As far as I know, someone who can bring a country that was running under a corrupted Nationalist government and laid to ruins after the Japanese invasion, into a nation that could stand against America, is a fair leader.

I'd love to see Roosevelt or Truman coming into a barren land of waste and rebuild it using democracy and capitalism under the same amount of time Mao did.
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Old 2007-12-02, 02:44   Link #96
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Of course, Taiwan is such an unimportant island that will not harm China in anyway, especially when Chiang Kai-shek constantly reminded his army to "counterattack mainland".
In case you forgot, the KMT got kicked out of power 7 years ago. The "counterattack" rubbish has been thrown out accordingly, as ramblings of old senile men who couldn't move with the times.

So when is China going to throw out their own outdated policies? Or do you still believe in the old ways, since your views of Taiwan is clearly out of date?
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Old 2007-12-02, 02:45   Link #97
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There is nothing insignificant or trivial with the Korean war if you think about it. To this day, 50 years after the fact, it's basically the Balkans of the modern era. That entire region in general is especially one of the most central trading areas of the region (hence why South Korea was able to bounce back so fast after nearly getting totally decimated. A lot worse than Japan was in World War 2 even despite the nukes). And to this day, a lot of nations slate their alliances with either side and there still are old capitalism/communist rivalry going on. It's not the same cold war as in the 80's, but it's still a tense, contested situation. Maybe now more so that the North Korean nation most definitely has access to making nuclear weapons if not now, then very soon.

Likely, with Taiwan, it's the one region of older China that is so successful with their Western style capitalism and self-rule, their very existence is very essential in that area.

Imagine if Iraq was to become fully democratic and became an economic model. That is basically what Taiwan is right now in the midst of a lot of 2nd class nations with too much corruption to run straight (Phillipines, Taiwan, China to an extent, etc).

There is a reason why they call Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong as the Four Asian Tigers.

They're the upmost important nations in the Asian region right alongside China. Hell, the Four Asian Tigers are basically the Asian equivalent of Western Europe.
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Old 2007-12-02, 02:50   Link #98
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Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles View Post
There is nothing insignificant or trivial with the Korean war if you think about it. To this day, 50 years after the fact, it's basically the Balkans of the modern era. That entire region in general is especially one of the most central trading areas of the region (hence why South Korea was able to bounce back so fast after nearly getting totally decimated. A lot worse than Japan was in World War 2 even despite the nukes).

Likely, with Taiwan, it's the one region of older China that is so successful with their Western style capitalism and self-rule, their very existence is very essential in that area.

Imagine if Iraq was to become fully democratic and became an economic model. That is basically what Taiwan is right now in the midst of a lot of 2nd class nations with too much corruption to run straight (Phillipines, Taiwan, China to an extent, etc).

There is a reason why they call Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong as the Four Asian Tigers.

They're the upmost important nations in the Asian region right alongside China. Hell, the Four Asian Tigers are basically the Asian equivalent of Western Europe.
Thanks anyway, but you might be giving Taiwan too much credit.

Taiwan is a nation with a bundle of problems. It is hardly an utopia. However, a nation does not need to be an Utopia in order to have a right to exist.

By the way, from the latest 00 map, it appeared North Korea was absorbed into China, but South Korea maintained autonomy. That sort of makes sense, as NK was going to fall apart one way or another, and China is the only one in the position to take control of the hot potato.
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Old 2007-12-02, 03:10   Link #99
SuperKnuckles
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Join Date: Dec 2004
I'm not giving Taiwan too much of a benefit of a doubt actually. America is probably in the biggest mire maybe in its entire history, but compared to the rest of the world, it's still world class nation and an example of a successful, democratic, western nation. Taiwan is likewise to me. I'm not saying any nation is perfect or without corruption. But for what it contends with, Taiwan is still a class up above most Asian nations.

As for North Korea, I'm inclined to think that if things comes to a shove, they'll most likely connect with South Korea or SK will just bumrush it like they probably should have a long time ago. China's support seems to be waning and the relationship seems to be getting much cooler. I doubt China is going to be NK's bloodbrother for too long. Especially not after 100, 200 years. As a Korean nation, being as nationalistic as they are, I seriously doubt a subjugation is even possible.
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Old 2007-12-02, 03:25   Link #100
yangxu
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
In case you forgot, the KMT got kicked out of power 7 years ago. The "counterattack" rubbish has been thrown out accordingly, as ramblings of old senile men who couldn't move with the times.

So when is China going to throw out their own outdated policies? Or do you still believe in the old ways, since your views of Taiwan is clearly out of date?
Please don't take stuff out of context and go off a tangent, I was talking about a period well before the 90s.

Also, KMT's loss of power doesn't mean they can't get back in, if they win the next election, it won't be China changing its policies, it's gonna be Taiwan. And remember, KMT and whatever the other "blue" factions there are, are still the majority in the Taiwanese parliament, so are you going to be seeing a change that completely overthrows Taiwan's current stance? I seriously doubt it.
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