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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 08 Rating
Perfect 10 19 13.97%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 28 20.59%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 19.12%
7 out of 10 : Good 24 17.65%
6 out of 10 : Average 19 13.97%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 5 3.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 2.94%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 2.21%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 2.94%
1 out of 10 : Painful 4 2.94%
Voters: 136. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-11-29, 13:06   Link #321
Paranoia833
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
The reason given in this episode for AEU helping CB is due to the fact that terrorist groups residing in other nations are apparently outside of AEU's jurisdiction. Gee, I wonder where that came from?


That said, you'd think the AEU would sell the information to the Union/HRL for a few concessions here and there rather than leaking the information to an organisation that offers them nothing and has shown no interest in any kind of negotiation. Or better yet, offer to hand the information to CB if, and only if, they sent some kind of ambassador/mouthpiece to the AEU. As it is it seems the AEU just love to give valuable intelligence away for nothing.

Guess I'd better expand my suspension-of-disbelief-field.
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Old 2007-11-29, 13:53   Link #322
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Paranoia833 View Post


That said, you'd think the AEU would sell the information to the Union/HRL for a few concessions here and there rather than leaking the information to an organisation that offers them nothing and has shown no interest in any kind of negotiation. Or better yet, offer to hand the information to CB if, and only if, they sent some kind of ambassador/mouthpiece to the AEU. As it is it seems the AEU just love to give valuable intelligence away for nothing.

Guess I'd better expand my suspension-of-disbelief-field.
There is still the loop-hole that since AEU is made up of many nations, that one of the nations could have supplied the information without the other partners' knowledge and/or consent. The lack of a unified policy-making body is probably the main reason the AEU has fallen so behind in every way compared to the other two world powers in 00.
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Old 2007-11-29, 15:15   Link #323
otacu
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I didn't laugh so hard in a Gundam episode since the Heero-Relena first contact in Wing.


Setsuna and the Princess meeting managed to remind me of the hilarity that was Gundam Wing..

8 episodes in and Gundam 00 is trying to steal the title for "worst Gundam of all times" or what?
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Old 2007-11-29, 21:38   Link #324
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There is still the loop-hole that since AEU is made up of many nations, that one of the nations could have supplied the information without the other partners' knowledge and/or consent. The lack of a unified policy-making body is probably the main reason the AEU has fallen so behind in every way compared to the other two world powers in 00.
Governments simply don't give things away for free. And the information about a terrorist organization that had just launched world-wide attacks is very valuable indeed. Every member state of the AEU would stand to gain from the kind of dealing that Paranoia833 pointed out. It'd only make sense for a country to pass that information to Celestial Being if it was trying to undermine the AEU. As far as we know, that's far from the case.
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Old 2007-11-29, 22:48   Link #325
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The part where Lockon was said to be turning emo, i think every character has its pro and cons, but i feel Setsuna shouldnt have to be the best characteristics among the four unless, he is the weakest and needs his meister leadership points to keep as a part to keep the team together, and all 4 counter check each other, Lockon to putt off fires, Allelujah a newtype with an adaptable characteristic of having another strong personality, Tieria to check disipline and watch for Setsuna for doing any crap and Setsuna to have his soldier doctrine and self god like belief to go through any odds.
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Old 2007-11-29, 22:51   Link #326
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Originally Posted by otacu View Post
I didn't laugh so hard in a Gundam episode since the Heero-Relena first contact in Wing.


Setsuna and the Princess meeting managed to remind me of the hilarity that was Gundam Wing..

8 episodes in and Gundam 00 is trying to steal the title for "worst Gundam of all times" or what?
Destiny is definitely still holding on to that title.
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Old 2007-11-29, 23:00   Link #327
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Pride View Post
Destiny is definitely still holding on to that title.
Actually, the original Gundam can just as easily hold it. Gundam has been a case where the sequal material were by and far better than the original (which was very roughly animated, had numerous cliches and flaws, and was hardly realistic or reasonable as fans seem to demand of every modern series. Amuro deserting and taking the Gundam with him is far worse an offense than, say, Shinn returning Stellar and returning. And Bright's slapping (physical abuse!!1!) of Amuro would raise Cain with those who are complaining about how unprofessional Setsuna is. ("Amuro might have deserved it, but Bright had no right to go and blah blah blah")

Gundam, like all other things, is less flawed when viewed over the distance of several years.
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Old 2007-11-29, 23:15   Link #328
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
If that's what you were going for, then it's a moot point. Terrorists, as we understand them can't pose a threat to well armed groups to begin with.

Terrorism in general doesn't pose much of a threat.
Terrorists won't be able to destroy CB, that's for sure, that's not what I'm talking about anyway, but CB apparently treats any armed attacks with considerable scale as a threat, to their supposed ideals at least. The previous post that I was replying to is about how CB would tackle very decentralized terrorists, and what I was saying is that then they won't pose much of a threat for CB to do anything. That's not a moot point and you shouldn't take it out of context. Marina's country is another example, when there are small conflicts here and there, CB doesn't give a damn. But if it's going all out, CB will go there and beat everyone up.

Quote:
The September 11 attack was a fairly decentralized operation, just like World Trade Center bombing, just like the Bali bombings, just like the July 7 bombings, just like Madrid train bombings, and so forth. The thing about terrorist attacks is that they require very little resources beyond a little technical expertise and willing participants to pull off, so there isn't much need for any centralized control beyond the initial planning.
And the initial planning is centralized control. Without some heads to give out the plans, do the training, they won't be able to do any coordinated attacks on large scale, so CB taking out the HQs basically accomplishes their mission. I doubt they'll care about some random guy screaming "I hate CB" and throw a bomb into a McDonald's
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Old 2007-11-30, 00:14   Link #329
Honey_and_Cleaver
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Actually, the original Gundam can just as easily hold it. Gundam has been a case where the sequal material were by and far better than the original (which was very roughly animated, had numerous cliches and flaws, and was hardly realistic or reasonable as fans seem to demand of every modern series. Amuro deserting and taking the Gundam with him is far worse an offense than, say, Shinn returning Stellar and returning. And Bright's slapping (physical abuse!!1!) of Amuro would raise Cain with those who are complaining about how unprofessional Setsuna is. ("Amuro might have deserved it, but Bright had no right to go and blah blah blah")

Gundam, like all other things, is less flawed when viewed over the distance of several years.
At that time it was good, Amuro treated the gundam like a mobile suit,Char was a strong rival character, thats how it had been, why should animes yesterday should be dumb as the anime today, its suppose to be moving foward, as bad as the old, gundam wing was better, and later, Seed could stand on its two feet,

But Destiny, Destiny was bad simply because Shinn was bad, Shinn was bad because his voice was bad, his voice was bad because he cant scream properly, a shout turns into a whiny tone like a giant mosquito buzzing in the ear, and when his shouts were bad, his story was bad, where he doesnt do anything out of the ordinary, he was just a torned up emo kid who goes randomly following dumb orders, and when hes a dumbass following orders, his objective and purpose was bad, and when that happens, the whole purpose of the anime was bad, and when that is bad, the title is also bad, and theres many more reasons why it was bad.
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Old 2007-11-30, 00:34   Link #330
4Tran
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Originally Posted by dreamless
Terrorists won't be able to destroy CB, that's for sure, that's not what I'm talking about anyway, but CB apparently treats any armed attacks with considerable scale as a threat, to their supposed ideals at least.
In that case, what do you mean by "threat"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
And the initial planning is centralized control. Without some heads to give out the plans, do the training, they won't be able to do any coordinated attacks on large scale, so CB taking out the HQs basically accomplishes their mission.
The training (such as it was) for 9/11 basically took place in the U.S., which is as decentralized as it gets. And if these are the only bits that are centralized, and they can take place just about anywhere, it's sort of the definition of decentralized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I doubt they'll care about some random guy screaming "I hate CB" and throw a bomb into a McDonald's
I don't know about that... This is essentially what the terrorists did in Gundam 00 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pride
Destiny is definitely still holding on to that title.
I'd say that ZZ grabbed onto the title first, and refuses to relinquish it to any other show. Gundam 00 will have to be truly awful in order to be considered worse. And even then, it'd be just about impossible for it to have worse writing.
Spoiler for ZZ:
Then again, I think that Destiny is one of the better Gundam shows, so feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young
Actually, the original Gundam can just as easily hold it.
I don't know about that, Mobile Suit Gundams certainly has a lot of flaws, but I thought that it was quite a bit better than Zeta and ZZ. Unfortunately, neither its artwork nor its pace hold up particularly well.
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2007-11-30 at 01:15.
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Old 2007-11-30, 01:24   Link #331
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
At that time it was good, Amuro treated the gundam like a mobile suit,Char was a strong rival character, thats how it had been, why should animes yesterday should be dumb as the anime today, its suppose to be moving foward, as bad as the old, gundam wing was better, and later, Seed could stand on its two feet,
In order of statement...
We're talking of the guy who walked, not ran/dodged/guarded/any sensible behavior though one of the heaviest artillery bombardments we've seen (the Magella force at Grand Canyon) and came out without a scratch.

We're talking about a character who had no basis for rivalry until the last week or so of the war (and the last ten or so episodes), once Amuro killed a a yo-yo character who's sole reason for introduction so late in the series was to be killed off in a made-to-order tragic fashion.

You'll find alot of people who don't like Wing. Gundanium Alloy invincibility and cardboard leos, anyone?

Well, I'll agree that Seed could stand on its own feet, admitedly with a slight wobble at certain parts.

Quote:
But Destiny, Destiny was bad simply because Shinn was bad, Shinn was bad because his voice was bad, his voice was bad because he cant scream properly, a shout turns into a whiny tone like a giant mosquito buzzing in the ear, and when his shouts were bad, his story was bad, where he doesnt do anything out of the ordinary, he was just a torned up emo kid who goes randomly following dumb orders, and when hes a dumbass following orders, his objective and purpose was bad, and when that happens, the whole purpose of the anime was bad, and when that is bad, the title is also bad, and theres many more reasons why it was bad.
I think I'll refer you over to RedZaku at the Seed Forums. In "CE Rants," look at Shinn's topic. By the sixth page or so, Red Zaku puts some well thought out defenses of common complaints of Shinn, and tells a good deal about how Destiny got shafted by a certain writer who deliberately sabatoged the writing process by turning in the scripts late so her changes of episodes past the pre-planned ones couldn't be changed.

But, in case you refuse to read that, here a summary of what you said.

-You don't like the general sound of a teenager yelling, even though that is more or less what it sounds like.
-You don't like his voice actor. (One rumor has it that said certain writer screwed Shinn because she didn't get along with the voice actor.)
-Having family (and love interest) killed by the actions of the heroes of the last series is a bad back story.
-Destroying multiple naval fleets without the benefits of a METEOR system or the spamalot Strike Freedom is "nothing out of the ordinary"
-Young men grieving for a year after family died is "emo"
-Following military orders and following the leader that the very directer stated in a post-series interview was the goodguy of Destiny is dumb and/or moronic to do
-...and, er, following orders to generally win battles is dumb
-A the sequel to Seed (which was a tribute to Gundam) which is itself a tribute to Zeta Gundam (which was the sequel to Gundam) is dumb
-You think "Destiny" stinks as a name
-You have many other petty and fan-biased oppinions as to why Destiny is teh suck


Did I miss anything?
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Old 2007-11-30, 01:44   Link #332
winter45
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Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
But Destiny, Destiny was bad simply because Shinn was bad, Shinn was bad because his voice was bad, his voice was bad because he cant scream properly, a shout turns into a whiny tone like a giant mosquito buzzing in the ear, and when his shouts were bad, his story was bad, where he doesnt do anything out of the ordinary, he was just a torned up emo kid who goes randomly following dumb orders, and when hes a dumbass following orders, his objective and purpose was bad, and when that happens, the whole purpose of the anime was bad, and when that is bad, the title is also bad, and theres many more reasons why it was bad..
A Jesus yamato and a pink fairy princess as the main cast. Those two killed seed and destiny for me. But to be fair, script writing did play a major role in the downfall of destiny.

Im just glad there are no equivalent of kira and lacus in 00. One of the main reason y im enjoying it. But i dont want to go off topic too far.

For me this episode is a bit of a let down. Was kinda hoping there would be a better meeting between setsuna and the queen. But instead it kinda felt forced.

But i did enjoy the last part of episode when setsuna done a flyby pass her plane. To me it yelled out *Im SERIOUSE* Not sure if he was intending to intimidate her or prove to her that he is a gundam pilot or possibly both.

So i gave this epsiode a 7, even tho i personally think i should of gave a lower score.
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Old 2007-11-30, 02:29   Link #333
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I really don't think Kira had anything to do with the storyline's own downfall. It's just that they didn't play out Shinn and the second half of Destiny. I still say Lacus still has to be one of the most charismatic females in all Gundam canon.

PS- I wonder why these threads always unravel into 'only my viewpoint is right' mindset. Maybe we should let sleeping dogs lie and let statements stand by themselves a bit?
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Old 2007-11-30, 02:43   Link #334
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Its just unfortuantly there is a huge divide in fans when it comes to SEED/DESTINY. Been to quite a few forums and its obvious that there is always the two most common arguments. Its either shinn sux or kira and lucas are omnipotent. (But not in the good way). But like myself and countless of others have stated their reasons in other threads y they dislike seed/destiny.

But ill stop here.
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Old 2007-11-30, 02:44   Link #335
Owaranai Destiny
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Who raised the expectations of the series? Was it the viewers ourselves, or was it the brand name?

While the series of today's standard might be considered a far cry in terms of character and plot development as well as adding in some "unnecessary" factors i.e. blatant fanservice, I was just wondering where the comparisons will lead us to. Not that I don't understand the need from criticism. A fair amount of it will be beneficial, but an excess amount of it over the littlest things might just be considered...whining.

Personally, I find the animation quality in this episode in some parts a little off, but so far I'm generally satisfied with how everything was played out. Of course, Setsuna's declaration was a little strange but considering the fact that he might be a little unhinged already, I wouldn't put it past him to do anymore strange stuff.

The scene with Lockon wasn't too bad either, more so because he fits into the 'cheery guy with a sad past' stereotype nicely.

I want one of those remote controls Setsuna has, too.
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Old 2007-11-30, 02:51   Link #336
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psst. While we're talking about Gundam Seed...

I believe in Athrun x Lacus. I believe in them, I do.
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Old 2007-11-30, 02:54   Link #337
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The training (such as it was) for 9/11 basically took place in the U.S., which is as decentralized as it gets. And if these are the only bits that are centralized, and they can take place just about anywhere, it's sort of the definition of decentralized.
But their timing cannot be just coincidence, could it? I meant there are several terrorists acts happening all at once, so unless all of them belong in the same group, the assumption would be they are all different "cell," guided by the main "organization".

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I'd say that ZZ grabbed onto the title first, and refuses to relinquish it to any other show. Gundam 00 will have to be truly awful in order to be considered worse. And even then, it'd be just about impossible for it to have worse writing.
Spoiler for ZZ:
Then again, I think that Destiny is one of the better Gundam shows, so feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt.
ZZ is quite bad - I think most people just want to wipe the series out of existence You can tell Tomino never really like the story of ZZ, when the novel he did for ZZ series is only two volume (Zeta has 5, and original Gundam has 3, I believe). As for [spoiler=zz] it's pretty obvious she dies, as the sad thing was nobody really noticed she die - they are all happy that Judo is alive[/quote].

Just curious - what makes you think Destiny is a good Gundam show? Just wondering what people like about the series....

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I don't know about that, Mobile Suit Gundams certainly has a lot of flaws, but I thought that it was quite a bit better than Zeta and ZZ. Unfortunately, neither its artwork nor its pace hold up particularly well.
Now that is a first of some sort - typically people, rarely have people group Zeta along with ZZ, since even though some people think the original Gundam is better, they rarely think Zeta is that bad (usually it's rated number 2, at least to the "old school UC" fans). What's wrong with Zeta? It does fall into the "monster" of the week thing, along with the "mandatory" fighting scene every episodes, and some of the "minor" plots are just downright weird (the whole Jerid/Camille rivalry is among the worst out there), but overall, I think it is quite good, comparing to the other series. Then again, I am more of a 0080 fan myself...
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Old 2007-11-30, 02:56   Link #338
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Call me nuts, but the first 8 episodes of Seed had a lot more entertainment value than 00 for me. 00 has a ton of potential and it seems to be playing it more safe than Seed or Destiny though.

As for Zeta, its writing was atrocious even by Tomino's own admittance. And he retconned that work at least a few times. It still was a very entertaining and interesting show, but IMO still not a 'good' show. Classic? Yes. Nostalgia? Yes. Stupendously bad writing? Yes.
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Old 2007-11-30, 06:29   Link #339
dreamless
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The poster above already commented on this, but no, you really don't. The only part of an operation like 9/11 that requires any real co-ordination is the training program. Aside from that, all they need is a little funding to learn how to pilot a plane and the rest can be co-ordinated entirely by a small group with access to publicly available flight times and a few letter openers.

Really 9/11 was more a failiure of US security than any stroke of genius on the part of Al Qaeda.
So it's with a centralized system after all. Although it doesn't take any genius, it's still well-planned and organized.

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I don't know about that... This is essentially what the terrorists did in Gundam 00 .
Nope, it's not some random guy doing some random attack, it's well-planned and organized, that's why it's with a centralized system.

Quote:
The training (such as it was) for 9/11 basically took place in the U.S., which is as decentralized as it gets. And if these are the only bits that are centralized, and they can take place just about anywhere, it's sort of the definition of decentralized.
So you are saying 911 was basically several independent groups that have no communication nor cooperation, without any centralized planning, coordination, resource, chain of command, that just happen to hijiack four planes at about the same time and crash into some important buildings, all out of pure coincidence?

I'm talking about a centralized system, not geographically centralized, ie. the terrorists can go about their doings everywhere, but as long as they take orders from a certain head, then it's a centralized system, meaning removing the head will paralyze the whole system, instead of decentralized system where the removal of any certain node won't affect the activity of the other parts of the system. For example WWW is centralized as it's based on servers, so it's easy for the government to censor the web, despite wherever you setup the servers, while p2p networks are decentralized. The terrorist training can take place just about anywhere, but as long as they are taking orders and doing it for a common goal that's set by some higher-ups, it's a centralized system.

Again, we should talk with the context of what the original poster means by "decentralized". I'm pretty sure it's not about geographical locations when he said the environmentalist group is highly centralized, since we know it has done simultaneous attacks on multiple locations all over the world, and the CB has not nearly exterminated every last member of the group. So the environmentalist group is as geographically decentralized as we can get already

Quote:
In that case, what do you mean by "threat"?
what the CB deems as a threat obviously are things important enough for the CB to take action against. For the CB the terrorist attacks are apparently systematic, well-planned and coordinated. That's why they call it a terrorist network, and it's shown that they know they don't take out all the terrorists, they just crush the heads to break the chain of command, cutting the connections in the network, without the HQs sending the plans and orders, the terrorists left can go about to do things like... err, blow up some random whaling ships or raid some random chemical plants? whatever environmentalist terrorists normally do, and CB won't give a damn.

Last edited by dreamless; 2007-11-30 at 09:13.
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Old 2007-11-30, 09:55   Link #340
4Tran
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Originally Posted by edf91
But their timing cannot be just coincidence, could it? I meant there are several terrorists acts happening all at once, so unless all of them belong in the same group, the assumption would be they are all different "cell," guided by the main "organization".
Oh sure, the terrorists in Gundam 00 act like that, but I already pointed out that they're more of a plot convenience than a parallel to real terrorists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edf91
Just curious - what makes you think Destiny is a good Gundam show? Just wondering what people like about the series....
I can't speak for anyone else, but the one thing that stood out was that, aside from the superficial elements, it was so very different from just about any other Gundam show (other than Seed, of course). The other salient points are:
- Intriguing geopolitics.
- Subtlety of the writing in places.
- Interesting characters.
- It has my favorite Gundam episode ever.
- The decision to make the protagonist a villain. By this, I'm not referring to Shinn, I'm referring to Durandal.

In the end, it's more that Destiny made me think, which isn't as common in Gundam as it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edf91
Now that is a first of some sort - typically people, rarely have people group Zeta along with ZZ, since even though some people think the original Gundam is better, they rarely think Zeta is that bad (usually it's rated number 2, at least to the "old school UC" fans). What's wrong with Zeta? It does fall into the "monster" of the week thing, along with the "mandatory" fighting scene every episodes, and some of the "minor" plots are just downright weird (the whole Jerid/Camille rivalry is among the worst out there), but overall, I think it is quite good, comparing to the other series. Then again, I am more of a 0080 fan myself...
I rather like Zeta, but the quality of the writing and direction in the second half of the show ranges from poor to really bad. Moreover, it got worse the closer it got to the end. I've seen a lot of praise for Zeta's ending, but I think that it was a poorly conceived mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
So it's with a centralized system after all. Although it doesn't take any genius, it's still well-planned and organized.
You're sort of redefining what "centralized" normally means. It's not about how well-planned or organized an activity is; it's about where the power is located. In most terrorist activities, most of this power isn't controlled by some sort of central entity - that's because competent terrorists know that communication between geographically separated groups is a very risky proposition. Instead, they tend disperse to their respective cells, and only really converge to pull an operation off. The central authority (such as it is) rarely does anything more than to control the timing of this convergence - often, they don't even do this much. In the attacks I listed above, most of them were conducted with, as far as we know, little or no communication with Al Qaeda's top leadership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
Nope, it's not some random guy doing some random attack, it's well-planned and organized, that's why it's with a centralized system.
Heh. I was referring to the way those attacks were just as random as those of your random guy. They certainly are more organized, but I really doubt that they're particularly well planned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
what the CB deems as a threat obviously are things important enough for the CB to take action against. For the CB the terrorist attacks are apparently systematic, well-planned and coordinated.
So what do you imagine will constitute a threat? Would it be the number of people killed, the number of attacks, how geographically dispersed the attacks are, or whether the terrorist claim to be directly challenging Celestial Being.
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