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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 08 Rating
Perfect 10 19 13.97%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 28 20.59%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 19.12%
7 out of 10 : Good 24 17.65%
6 out of 10 : Average 19 13.97%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 5 3.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 2.94%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 2.21%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 2.94%
1 out of 10 : Painful 4 2.94%
Voters: 136. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-11-30, 10:28   Link #341
dreamless
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You're sort of redefining what "centralized" normally means. It's not about how well-planned or organized an activity is; it's about where the power is located. In most terrorist activities, most of this power isn't controlled by some sort of central entity - that's because competent terrorists know that communication between geographically separated groups is a very risky proposition. Instead, they tend disperse to their respective cells, and only really converge to pull an operation off. The central authority (such as it is) rarely does anything more than to control the timing of this convergence - often, they don't even do this much. In the attacks I listed above, most of them were conducted with, as far as we know, little or no communication with Al Qaeda's top leadership.
Like I said, I was talking in context with what the original poster said. Since he said the environmentalist group is highly "centralized", I guess it doesn't mean geographical location, but about the hierachical system, more like in network terminology. I don't think this should derail into a semantic debate, I was just replying in context of the original post.

Whether they have communications at the time of the terrorist strikes is completely irrelevant here, as long as they have some higher-ups giving orders and doing the planning stuff, then taking those higher-ups out will cripple the network. And in this episode there's no hint that they find out those HQs because of some communications during the terrorist strike. It looks to me that they just captured a member, find out what organization he belongs to, and then get out the data about the organization. It's like when US found out 911 was by Al Qaeda, they didn't track out the Al Qaeda HQs by any communications during the terrorist attack, they just knew main Al Qaeda bases were in Afghanistan and went beat the hell out of it. The thing is that they have connections, have had communications, that made the attacks possible, which makes it a centralized system.

The point is, as long as the terrorist group have some centralized network and some higher-ups, it can be crippled by removing such heads. And if they really don't have such a centralized system, then they won't be anything to CB.

Quote:
Heh. I was referring to the way those attacks were just as random as those of your random guy. They certainly are more organized, but I really doubt that they're particularly well planned.
Well, as much well-planned as the anime goes, since it did go blowing up plenty of places before being finally caught. Or maybe the goverments in the anime are too incompetent And I was talking about CB doesn't seem to care about some small-scale random attacks, like what's happening in Marina's country.

Quote:
So what do you imagine will constitute a threat? Would it be the number of people killed, the number of attacks, how geographically dispersed the attacks are, or whether the terrorist claim to be directly challenging Celestial Being.
well, I can't guess that. all I know is that the small conflicts in Marina's country so far don't get CB onto them yet, and supposedly they will attract CB to go in and beat them up if it goes worse...
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Old 2007-11-30, 13:01   Link #342
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
Like I said, I was talking in context with what the original poster said. Since he said the environmentalist group is highly "centralized", I guess it doesn't mean geographical location, but about the hierachical system, more like in network terminology.
Sure, I agree that Gundam 00's terrorists seem to have some sort of strict hierarchy, but they don't resemble real terrorists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
It's like when US found out 911 was by Al Qaeda, they didn't track out the Al Qaeda HQs by any communications during the terrorist attack, they just knew main Al Qaeda bases were in Afghanistan and went beat the hell out of it.
That's sort of true, but largely besides the point as well. The U.S. had known that Al Qaeda's main operations had been in Afghanistan for quite some time (Clinton attacked them in 1998). However, pinning down such a loose organization in such a large geographical area doesn't mean a whole lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
The point is, as long as the terrorist group have some centralized network and some higher-ups, it can be crippled by removing such heads. And if they really don't have such a centralized system, then they won't be anything to CB.
If, by "crippled", you mean temporarily hampered, I'd agree. Removing the leaders ususally puts a crimp in operations, but inevitably, someone else steps in and takes over the reins of leadership. Such decentralized organizations are very resilient to these disruptions and can usually continue their operations with relative ease. For example, Israel has killed quite a few Hamas leaders, but the organization has hardly been crippled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
Well, as much well-planned as the anime goes, since it did go blowing up plenty of places before being finally caught.
Since they were just blowing up random targets all over the place, it doesn't exactly require a whole lot of planning. All it really needs are people already in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
Or maybe the goverments in the anime are too incompetent
That sort of goes without saying. The AEU and Moralia are non-joke nations as far as the rest of the world is concerned, but when whats-her-name-that-likes-shopping could still hack their military servers without any significant effort, their security is obviously very poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
well, I can't guess that. all I know is that the small conflicts in Marina's country so far don't get CB onto them yet, and supposedly they will attract CB to go in and beat them up if it goes worse...
Small scale is a bit of a relative term. The terrorists' attacks only killed about a hundred people, so it'd be small scale compared to the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. And McVeigh is basically your McDonalds bomber writ large.

It seems more likely that Celestial Being went after them because they posed it as a direct challenge. In fact, this same reasoning goes for the attack on Moralia as well.
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Old 2007-11-30, 13:42   Link #343
edf91
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Oh sure, the terrorists in Gundam 00 act like that, but I already pointed out that they're more of a plot convenience than a parallel to real terrorists.
But unless you can pull off simultaneous attack like that, no one will take you seriously, since it takes a pretty organized group to coordinate things like that.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I can't speak for anyone else, but the one thing that stood out was that, aside from the superficial elements, it was so very different from just about any other Gundam show (other than Seed, of course). The other salient points are:
- Intriguing geopolitics.
- Subtlety of the writing in places.
- Interesting characters.
- It has my favorite Gundam episode ever.
- The decision to make the protagonist a villain. By this, I'm not referring to Shinn, I'm referring to Durandal.
People make the argument all the time that Char is the protagonist in the original Gundam (in the novel, Amuro dies, and Char basically pick up the slack), and I am sure people argue that in 0083, Gato is more like the protagonist than Gato, so I don't think it's that "new" per say. I think I see the way you view the shows now, so I understand what you are coming from. I know for sure it's different than me

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
In the end, it's more that Destiny made me think, which isn't as common in Gundam as it should be.
It is for me, but not in a good way. It's just hard for me to take it seriously when everyone knows the stories was rushed, and therefore there are tons of stock footage used in the anime (I am sure if you stop by the Destiny forum back then, you would see tons of posts about them). It is just unheard of on how rush the script gets to the animators or what not, so it is just hard for me to take the story seriously.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I rather like Zeta, but the quality of the writing and direction in the second half of the show ranges from poor to really bad. Moreover, it got worse the closer it got to the end. I've seen a lot of praise for Zeta's ending, but I think that it was a poorly conceived mess.
Did you have a chance of watching the Zeta movies? I personally don't like how the ending goes, but it seems to fix some of the "bad writing." Of course, Tomino has a much different state of mine when they did the movies, so the ending would be different for sure (even Tomino was commenting on his own personal life affect how come almost all of his show in that time frame is pretty sad/dark).
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Old 2007-11-30, 14:39   Link #344
dreamless
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Sure, I agree that Gundam 00's terrorists seem to have some sort of strict hierarchy, but they don't resemble real terrorists.
I don't see any hint of "strict" hierarchy in this environmentalist group at all, can you enlighten us where do you see such a thing? I just see some structured organization, which lots of real world terrorist organizations may be similar anyway. It apparently has some network with centralized control to do the bombings, and it may or may not have some splinter groups that haven't participated in the bombings, but I see no indication whether it's "strictly hierachical" or not as a whole. I just said that in the context of what the original poster said, the "centralized" he mentioned looks to be taking the meaning in terms of hierachical system and network terminology. Again don't talk things out of context.

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That's sort of true, but largely besides the point as well. The U.S. had known that Al Qaeda's main operations had been in Afghanistan for quite some time (Clinton attacked them in 1998). However, pinning down such a loose organization in such a large geographical area doesn't mean a whole lot.
The point is in this episode the AEU intelligence looks to have known the location of the terrorist HQs for quite some time too. And now I don't know why you brought up anything about "communication at the time of terrorist attacks" in your previous post to the argument at all.

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If, by "crippled", you mean temporarily hampered, I'd agree. Removing the leaders ususally puts a crimp in operations, but inevitably, someone else steps in and takes over the reins of leadership. Such decentralized organizations are very resilient to these disruptions and can usually continue their operations with relative ease. For example, Israel has killed quite a few Hamas leaders, but the organization has hardly been crippled.
Again in my previous posts I have already explained it. It's different here as the environmentalist group obviously can't have fighting CB as their primary teaching, without the higher-ups giving orders, they'll most likely go on to sink some whaling ships or something. Hamas has always being anti-Semite, so it's a different case. I think I have already mentioned it in my first reply to the original post about why I thought truly decentralized terrorist group would not take CB as their target. And CB is looking for the country that's apparently behind making an environmentalist group attacking CB, and once that's dealt with, you can be pretty sure the environmentalist group would want to sink some random whaling ships than throwing bombs everywhere to challenge CB.

Quote:
Since they were just blowing up random targets all over the place, it doesn't exactly require a whole lot of planning. All it really needs are people already in place.
well, it needs plans to tell those people to go bomb their nearest place instead of raiding some whaling ships

Quote:
Small scale is a bit of a relative term. The terrorists' attacks only killed about a hundred people, so it'd be small scale compared to the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. And McVeigh is basically your McDonalds bomber writ large.

It seems more likely that Celestial Being went after them because they posed it as a direct challenge. In fact, this same reasoning goes for the attack on Moralia as well.
well, that's for CB to decide, or more precisely, for the underlying logic in the programming in Veda the computer to decide. So CB don't give a damn to some random McDonald's bomber in Marina's country, but decide to burn some marjuana fields.

Last edited by dreamless; 2007-11-30 at 16:28.
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Old 2007-11-30, 17:04   Link #345
Sol Falling
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mm, just to clarify.

When I mentioned centralization in the first post, I was speaking geographically. As in, all the personel were gathered tightly in specific bases, in such a way that if CB took out the bases, the terrorists would be crippled.

The thing with terrorism is, it involves infiltration. Getting into the countries, cities, buildings you want to blow up. Necessarily, you would have the bombs and stuff with you in those cities etc. So if that's the case, then there should still be a ton of people around the world who have the means and probably the motivation to blow up citizens in the name of 'against CB'. But apparently, there aren't?

I'd also like to argue against the 'coordinated and well-planned out' point. The only coordinated attacks were the first 7, mentioned at the end of episode 7. In episode 8, both Shanghai and Ireland were attacked, seemingly independantly. The only coordination required was for the first attacks, and to achieve that all the various cells would have to do in terms of communicating with each other was agree on a time. Thus, I don't think there was sufficient evidence to claim that the terrorist network had to be highly centralized.
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Old 2007-11-30, 17:23   Link #346
dreamless
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
mm, just to clarify.

When I mentioned centralization in the first post, I was speaking geographically. As in, all the personel were gathered tightly in specific bases, in such a way that if CB took out the bases, the terrorists would be crippled.

The thing with terrorism is, it involves infiltration. Getting into the countries, cities, buildings you want to blow up. Necessarily, you would have the bombs and stuff with you in those cities etc. So if that's the case, then there should still be a ton of people around the world who have the means and probably the motivation to blow up citizens in the name of 'against CB'. But apparently, there aren't?
Then you are completely wrong, the show has made it quite clear that CB didn't take out all the terrorists, just some HQs, and is pin-pointing the country that's behind the attacks. Yes there may be a lot of terrorists around the world, but being an environmentalist group and all, I'd say they don't have any motivation to throw bombs around in the name of "against CB" without any orders from higher-ups nor funding from some country. And as they can do those global bombings, it's obvious they are not geographically centralized.

Quote:
I'd also like to argue against the 'coordinated and well-planned out' point. The only coordinated attacks were the first 7, mentioned at the end of episode 7. In episode 8, both Shanghai and Ireland were attacked, seemingly independantly. The only coordination required was for the first attacks, and to achieve that all the various cells would have to do in terms of communicating with each other was agree on a time. Thus, I don't think there was sufficient evidence to claim that the terrorist network had to be highly centralized.
Actually that is enough evidence already, since they can coordinate the first wave of simultaneous attacks, that already means they indeed have some kind of a centralized network. And for an environmentalist group to suddenly start bomb things other than the like of whaling ships, there apparently should be some people from higher-up that makes the decision and gives out the plan and orders to those below. CB is a new thing, it's not like suddenly there will be hordes of people all around the world to unite and do terrorist attacks against it, and that's not even something rational for the common terrorists to do, using terrorism to... fight terrorists?
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Old 2007-11-30, 18:57   Link #347
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edf91
But unless you can pull off simultaneous attack like that, no one will take you seriously, since it takes a pretty organized group to coordinate things like that.
Why is that necessary to be taken seriously? Do you think that isolated attacks like the Beirut Marine Barrack bombing and the Oklahoma City bombing weren't taken seriously? Sure a coorindate attack is more impressive, but that's about as far as it goes.

I'll put the rest of my comments in a PM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I don't see any hint of "strict" hierarchy in this environmentalist group at all, can you enlighten us where do you see such a thing?
While my use of "strict hierarchy" isn't as precise as I'd like; I'm using the term as a contrast to real terrorist organizations. However, the term isn't too far off from what we've seen as well; the Gundam 00 terrorists have military bases with high intensity military equipment like mobile armors and mobile suits. In order to support and use such gear properly, it's also pretty much necessary to employ military structures as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I just see some structured organization, which lots of real world terrorist organizations may be similar anyway.
Similar to the Gundam 00 terrorists? No, not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
The point is in this episode the AEU intelligence looks to have known the location of the terrorist HQs for quite some time too.
This is a rather perplexing proposition on a couple of levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
And now I don't know why you brought up anything about "communication at the time of terrorist attacks" in your previous post to the argument at all.
I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I think I have already mentioned it in my first reply to the original post about why I thought truly decentralized terrorist group would not take CB as their target. And CB is looking for the country that's apparently behind making an environmentalist group attacking CB, and once that's dealt with, you can be pretty sure the environmentalist group would want to sink some random whaling ships than throwing bombs everywhere to challenge CB.
I think that it'd be fair to say that no terrorist group would even have a reason for targetting Celestial Being at all (heck, they technically weren't targetted at all).
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Old 2007-11-30, 20:16   Link #348
Paranoia833
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I think that it'd be fair to say that no terrorist group would even have a reason for targetting Celestial Being at all (heck, they technically weren't targetted at all).
More like no terrorist organisation would be capable of attacking CB. (Or that any organisation fighting CB directly wouldn't be commiting terrorism, by definition). I can think of several reasons why groups that have used terrorism in the past might be ideologically opposed to CB. It's just doubtful they would use terrorism to go after them, as CB has so far shown no willingness to negotiate with anyone, thus leverage tactics against the organisation itself would be pointless (if anything you'd think they'd co-operate with states if there were any way they could strike at CB, much like Cold War Afghanistan) but then I believe that's just an elaboration of what your saying.

Within the context of the show it seems their goal was some kind of reverse-psychology media manipulation. They hoped to discredit CB in the eyes of the media/public by showing that CB wouldn't respond to their demands or take action against them, not an unreasonable assumption given CB has demonstrated no independent intelligence gathering capabilities, they're entirely dependent on the superpowers doing the legwork for them. (and in a realistic scenario no superpower would want to grant CB any kind of legitimacy by giviing them intel on the terrorists). Realistically that would make no real sense as so far the worlds governments/elites already hate CB, and that would be reflected by the mainstream media, but the GundamADverse seems to pander considerably less to its target audience than our own, so I suppose in the context of the show it makes sense.

Realism aside, I still really liked the terrorism angle as it put CB into a postition they're not equipped to fight, I'd just hoped they'd have taken a more subtle direction with the outcome. It would have been nice to see CB come up with some clever solution to achieve victory in an unfamiliar arena rather than just have victory handed to them on a silver platter.

I'm also hoping that it does turn out there was some ulterior motive behind the bombings say, PMC contracting them out to lure CBs intelligence network into the open. As it is CBs enemies have been remarkably willing to do nothing other than fight the all-powerful superweapons head on rather than trying to find out who's actually supplying them with the material they need to build the damn things and the information they need to deploy them effectively. Of course judging by the previews it seems like the HRL are going to locate CB eventually so maybe it's just all happening off screen.
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Old 2007-11-30, 20:44   Link #349
dahak
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
This is a rather perplexing proposition on a couple of levels.
It just requires AEU intelligence to have sold them their Mobile Suits.

Same as the terrorists that attacked the HRL Orbital Tower had AEU MS's.

Since they started bombing for reasons the AEU didn't want them to or wanted CB to think they were against they became expendable. Ask Admiral Poindexter about how twisted these things can get.

No skin off the AEU's nose if some ecoterrorist patsies get whacked and theres always the possibility they might down a Gundam by luck or one of the Meisters might get careless and let the AEU who know where they are hitting track them back to base.

Assuming the AEU is telling the truth and these are the terrorists in question.

And that some more realistically organised group doesn't take up this as an action plan. Whacking Grerry Adams and the rest of the Army council wouldn't have stopped an IRA bombing campaign that was under way, All it would have done is kill everyone who could call off the active service units.
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Old 2007-11-30, 20:58   Link #350
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by dreamless View Post
Then you are completely wrong, the show has made it quite clear that CB didn't take out all the terrorists, just some HQs, and is pin-pointing the country that's behind the attacks. Yes there may be a lot of terrorists around the world, but being an environmentalist group and all, I'd say they don't have any motivation to throw bombs around in the name of "against CB" without any orders from higher-ups nor funding from some country. And as they can do those global bombings, it's obvious they are not geographically centralized.
my my, how rude. What the show made clear was the Gundam Meisters blowing up some bases and walking away with the expectation that they had defeated terrorism. And although they might have suspected sponsor nations, they had not yet determined their existance for sure.

Anyway, the other thing with terrorist groups, is that they usually have a universal cause, something they all believe in. They aren't going to just let one guy convince all of them what to do, and if they do let one guy do that, they certainly aren't to give up on following through with it just because he died. And I wonder about any terrorist organization that would do something completely unrelated to their ideals just because some country that wants them to is giving them 'funds'. Terrorism is dangerous, you know. You do it because you believe in something enough to risk your life, not to get rich (the little guys anyway. I'd think the same would be true for the higher ups, but feel free to refute me on that point.).

Geographically centralized means that they have three major bases where everybody's at. Decentralized would be guys livin' a double life in the cities, y'know? Don't meet up in groups larger than 5 and keep to yourself 'til the orders come. Generally the best way to avoid being caught, you know. Can't really terrorize anybody from jail. Why was everybody at the bases? Particularly the leaders.


Quote:
Actually that is enough evidence already, since they can coordinate the first wave of simultaneous attacks, that already means they indeed have some kind of a centralized network. And for an environmentalist group to suddenly start bomb things other than the like of whaling ships, there apparently should be some people from higher-up that makes the decision and gives out the plan and orders to those below. CB is a new thing, it's not like suddenly there will be hordes of people all around the world to unite and do terrorist attacks against it, and that's not even something rational for the common terrorists to do, using terrorism to... fight terrorists?
So, like I said, you need a centralized network neither to decide to attack CB nor to pull off seven simultaneous attacks. For the motivation aspect, see Paranoia833s point about groups being ideologically opposed to CB. For the coordination, it's a matter of exchanging some emails (or another more secure form of communication, but the point remains). As for your point on rationality, I agree completely. My position is that the actions and organization of the terrorists in episode 8 were wholly irrational, while you are arguing that somehow having somebody to tell them what to do and shove a little cash at them would overcome that irrationality.
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Old 2007-12-01, 00:02   Link #351
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoi833
Realism aside, I still really liked the terrorism angle as it put CB into a postition they're not equipped to fight, I'd just hoped they'd have taken a more subtle direction with the outcome. It would have been nice to see CB come up with some clever solution to achieve victory in an unfamiliar arena rather than just have victory handed to them on a silver platter.
Our thoughts on the issue are largely the same. While it's possible for terrorist organizations to be ideologically opposed to Celestial Being, they would only act in a manner that could directly harm Celestial Being or their interests. Without that ability, random attacks like the ones we saw can't accomplish anything. Terrorists only attack when they think they can benefit from doing so, so it seems like quite out of character for them to do so.

While a bunch of episodes devoted to hunting down the terrorists would have been great, I didn't have much faith that it would have played out that way for a couple of reasons. First, it doesn't suit a Gundam show very much since there'd be nothing for the Gundam Meisters to do, and no reason to show off the Gundams. Next, it would be a horrible change of pace for the show, and finally, it would have kept the creators from getting to the actual plot for even longer. I always thought that the show would just devote an episode or two to deal with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dahak
It just requires AEU intelligence to have sold them their Mobile Suits.
I'm arguing from the position of what it would be the AEU's interest to do. If they truly knew the location of the HQs ahead of time, then it'd be valuable information that could be used to gain an advantage in all sorts of ways. Giving the information away to Celestial Being is not one of these ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dahak
Same as the terrorists that attacked the HRL Orbital Tower had AEU MS's.
Lots of terrorists use American weapons; that doesn't mean that the U.S. is sponsoring them or that the Americans know where their HQs are. Besides, if the terrorists are largely active in Europe, why the heck wouldn't the AEU want to eliminate them from the get-go?
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Old 2007-12-01, 00:33   Link #352
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
What war? Most of the world is at peace.
The war has already started. or maybe the terrorist organization blowing things up is just for fireworks? Seriously, the war between the CB and all violent reactions that lead to violence, the 3 power blocs just forcing them to actually declare themselves out in the open in a way that they could be trapped by their own personal vendetta against war, and more...I could be thinking too deeply into this, but I guess they're trying to put CB into a stalemate wherein they would be trapped in whatever they're doing and they can't do anything else but to surrender themselves in.

Quote:
That's my point. The way the creators had planned the show, there wasn't any good way for them to meet.
You kinda said that you were hoping they met under better circumstances, or was given an all around new way of meeting each other. I was just saying/stating that it wouldn't be too good (if they were to meet in an idealized manner or something), because of the situation they are in. Besides, I was replying to how you see that this episode's point was just for the sake of them meeting only, and is a very poor attempt at making them meet.

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You actually think that this makes sense?
Why yes. Doesn't it? Using another faction in order to protect themselves from creating evil, or using another faction to do their dirty work. It's a case of pulling puppet strings, backstabbing, blackmailing, and the whole lot of them mutated together. In the case of Gundam 00, it's the AEU or whatever faction using the CB in order to flush out the threats, and Sumeragi isn't liking it one bit, but it is still at least going according to Veda's plan, I think. And I guess they are trying to catch each other red handed as well (the 3 factions). If any of them could get to use the GN Drive technology, they could very well state that that faction is going to use the technology for war, and so give them enough reason to rally against that faction and so start a BIGGER war again.

Quote:
Why? Why would they bother to go to such efforts?
It is because they WANT the GN technology. Didn't the Union state that quite clearly after Graham tried seeing for himself how strong Exia was? HRL tried using Soma (or at least unsuccessfully so in her first test battle/run because she freaked out at Mr. Hallelujah), and AEU tried using PMC Trust + Ali in order to grab themselves the Exia.

Quote:
You realize that this makes no sense for various reasons, don't you?
I was hoping/trying to explain why Setsuna's WTF outburst in saner terms (I think I explained myself at the end of what you quoted). I think Marina explained it herself that she was quite happy to have met someone from her own homeland in a place like that.

Quote:
I believe that no such organization can exist in the Gundam 00 universe. Normally, terrorist organizations are extremely difficult to root out; requiring months or years of investigation, signals monitoring, intelligence analysis, and hard work. Armed forces aren't all that useful against them because they're hard to come to grips with. On the other hand, terrorists in 2307 are expected to act in easy-to-defeat ways.
CB would like to have a word with you, in a way.

And this is the 24th century, they could probably have lots of ways wherein they could have a terrorist organization while staying undercover. And how could you even ascertain that terrorists in 2307 could be handled very easily? RX 78 2.0 does not count.

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They sort of act that way all the time.
Act how?

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I agree. It's quite natural for Lockon to have a peccadillo about groups that he has especial reasons to hate; and to treat these groups differently than he does other organizations. It's also natural for him to not want to dwell on the idea that the things he's doing aren't necessarily all that removed from that of the very terrorists that he professes to hate as well. These contrasting character traits have quite a bit of potential for interesting conflicts in the future.
I am pretty sure Lockon had his own special reasons why he joined the CB, and Veda has its own special reasons why it chose Lockon. CB is only known for terrorizing people who terrorize other people by declaring they're going to split from the Union (Taribia), could manage to terrorize other people as well if they didn't stop (the terrorist action they had in this ep)...basically, they didn't target innocent civilians out of whim or kill people just because they felt like pwning them all. Of course, soldiers acting blindly on their superiors' orders, and other innocent people besides, have unwittingly become the innocents in this deadly chess game , and their blood is on CB's hands. But they really don't involve people in their fight unless they have to and have no other choice. Terrorists come in a lot of different "flavors" - there are fanatics, there are those who only target people/organizations they really hate, there are those who use "terrorism" in a whole new level...I haven't actually seen a terrorist organization going against a particular method like killing animals or going against violence itself...if it were, then PETA, Greenpeace, human rights activists and others could be called as "terrorists" as well (because they react and "retaliate violently" by making marches, protests, appealing to the world not to do this or that, entreat people to take the position against all those changes/actions, etc.)...but to other people, CB is a terrorist group, using violence to end violence. If you look at the way they're dealing with that kind of violence, then CB could be called as an activist against violence, and they just happen to have Gundams in their arsenal.

CB is only trying to stop violence with violence, and because of this belief, the 3 factions use them in their bloody causes, making them terrorists. Now who's the real terrorist here?

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The very opposite is true. While most terrorist organizations have some sort of top-level leadership, the rank-and-file are extremely decentralized to the extent of being able of taking independent action. What HQs exist are generally little more than mobile communications centers. Al Qaeda is probably the best example of this - they don't really exist as a single terrorist organization; instead, most national and regional groups operate independently. There's very little communication or cooperation between these groups, so Al Qaeda is extremely resilient to damage. Even the loss of the entire top leadership would do very little to damage the different national groups. ==>And therein lies both the strength and weakness of terrorist groups - their cell structures make it very difficult for a government to eradicate them, but at the same time increases the chances of factionalization<==.
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Even this doesn't make any sense - why would the Union allow a hostile terrorist group to maintain mobile suits and a permanent base within their territory if they knew about its presence?
I think you already answered yourself in the previous statement you just said.
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Old 2007-12-01, 00:59   Link #353
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
The war has already started. or maybe the terrorist organization blowing things up is just for fireworks?
Despite what you may believe, a bunch of random terrorist attacks don't constitute a war.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
You kinda said that you were hoping they met under better circumstances, or was given an all around new way of meeting each other.
Why do you think I said this? One would imagine that by writing, "Based on the requirements of the story, and the constraints the creators made on the story, it was sort of inevitable that the meeting was going to turn out badly. While it may be possible that there are ways that it could have been written better, they would certainly have taken that opportunity if they could think of it", I was stating that the creators picked a poor storyline because they couldn't think of a better one.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Why yes. Doesn't it? Using another faction in order to protect themselves from creating evil, or using another faction to do their dirty work.
What the heck are you trying to argue? My point was about the interaction between Marina and Setsuna.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
It is because they WANT the GN technology.
My point was made in regard to how the terrorists don't have any reason to go to such efforts. Are you trying to claim that they are somehow after the GN technology?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
I was hoping/trying to explain why Setsuna's WTF outburst in saner terms (I think I explained myself at the end of what you quoted). I think Marina explained it herself that she was quite happy to have met someone from her own homeland in a place like that.
Uh... What are you talking about? Did you get all your quotes confused?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
And this is the 24th century, they could probably have lots of ways wherein they could have a terrorist organization while staying undercover. And how could you even ascertain that terrorists in 2307 could be handled very easily?
Celestial Being was under the apprehension that the terrorists could be rooted out very quickly. Do you think that this assumption was correct, or incorrect? If it was correct, then doesn't it imply that any unknown terrorist group can be handled in this manner?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Act how?
They act in "retardedly serious" ways all the time. Witness all the multi-character sentence-completing scenes.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
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Originally Posted by Me
And therein lies both the strength and weakness of terrorist groups - their cell structures make it very difficult for a government to eradicate them, but at the same time increases the chances of factionalization
<SNIP>
why would the Union allow a hostile terrorist group to maintain mobile suits and a permanent base within their territory if they knew about its presence?
I think you already answered yourself in the previous statement you just said.
My points aren't contradictory. Real terrorists don't have the deluxe HQs, gigantic mobile suits, and the infrastructure and attendant materiel that such a force requires. With all this junk, a terrorist organization becomes relatively immobile and easy to find. As I said earlier, the Gundam 00 terrorists don't bear much resemblence to real ones. Can you imagine Al Qaeda maintaining a base with a bunch of M-60s and a fleet of F-5s somewhere in New Mexico? Can you imagine the Americans being too stupid to not notice a base that stands out this much or not doing anything about it?
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Old 2007-12-01, 01:28   Link #354
dreamless
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
While my use of "strict hierarchy" isn't as precise as I'd like; I'm using the term as a contrast to real terrorist organizations. However, the term isn't too far off from what we've seen as well; the Gundam 00 terrorists have military bases with high intensity military equipment like mobile armors and mobile suits. In order to support and use such gear properly, it's also pretty much necessary to employ military structures as well.
well, mobile armors and mobile suits are apparently some standard weapons in Gundam 00's world, remember the terrorists in the first episode already has some outdated mobile suits. It's like some extremist environmentalist group can have some gunboats in real world. and that camp looks like something that can be set up in a couple days anyway, something set up by some guerilla groups. so that doesn't need any "strict hierachy" or anything too extravagant.

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Similar to the Gundam 00 terrorists? No, not really.
how can you be so sure, since we don't know much about the terrorist group as a whole at all. it may have some splinter groups that didn't take part in the bombings. it may have a loose structure but just the more well-organized parts take part in the the bombings. It's hard to have real world parallels to this incidence NOT because of the terrorist group has anything special, but because there's no real world parallel to CB. There are plenty of terrorist group that may structured similarly to the environmentalist group in Gundam 00, just there is no CB around in our world.

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This is a rather perplexing proposition on a couple of levels.
well, from how the shows going, it surely looks like AEU knows the rough location of the environmentalist HQs all the time.

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I think that it'd be fair to say that no terrorist group would even have a reason for targetting Celestial Being at all (heck, they technically weren't targetted at all).
That's why they deduced that there must be some people behind that give the terrorists tons of money to do those attacks.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
my my, how rude. What the show made clear was the Gundam Meisters blowing up some bases and walking away with the expectation that they had defeated terrorism. And although they might have suspected sponsor nations, they had not yet determined their existance for sure.
Maybe you should take care of your own manners by watching the show better, they have definitely not shown anything about "defeating terrorism", they are flying away with "mission completed". They are not suspecting sponsor nations, they are already actively looking for them. The CB are already quite sure about the existence of the sponsor nations.

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Anyway, the other thing with terrorist groups, is that they usually have a universal cause, something they all believe in. They aren't going to just let one guy convince all of them what to do, and if they do let one guy do that, they certainly aren't to give up on following through with it just because he died. And I wonder about any terrorist organization that would do something completely unrelated to their ideals just because some country that wants them to is giving them 'funds'. Terrorism is dangerous, you know. You do it because you believe in something enough to risk your life, not to get rich (the little guys anyway. I'd think the same would be true for the higher ups, but feel free to refute me on that point.).
You'd be surprised how powerful money is. And like I said, it didn't show much info about the terrorist group at all, maybe only the parts that follows the orders from the higher-ups take part in the bombings. And you need money to fund your operations, so it's not unrelated to their ideals as long as they can get tons of money to further their own ideals in the future. By taking out the higher-ups, the little guys won't know what to do next since they won't know whether it will help them get more money to further their own ideals, and like you said, they won't risk it. And then taking out the sponsor, the terrorists will go back to their daily route as they'll find no more reason to do those activities since it won't get them more money to further their own goal.

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Geographically centralized means that they have three major bases where everybody's at. Decentralized would be guys livin' a double life in the cities, y'know? Don't meet up in groups larger than 5 and keep to yourself 'til the orders come. Generally the best way to avoid being caught, you know. Can't really terrorize anybody from jail. Why was everybody at the bases? Particularly the leaders.
Again it's never shown that everybody was at the base, it's actually clealy shown in the anime that some camps near the attack site have evacuated. And no they didn't show them to all go into the three HQs. And you won't see guys like Osama Bin Laden or some Hamas leaders living a double life in the cities. They are plenty of real world terrorist leaders hiding in forests and/or deserts with their followers.

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So, like I said, you need a centralized network neither to decide to attack CB nor to pull off seven simultaneous attacks. For the motivation aspect, see Paranoia833s point about groups being ideologically opposed to CB. For the coordination, it's a matter of exchanging some emails (or another more secure form of communication, but the point remains). As for your point on rationality, I agree completely. My position is that the actions and organization of the terrorists in episode 8 were wholly irrational, while you are arguing that somehow having somebody to tell them what to do and shove a little cash at them would overcome that irrationality.
Nope, as long as you decide to attack CB, you need a centralized network. Or do you propose that some independent factions of some environmentalist group that have their teachings as stuff like no whaling, no chemical waste, no junk food, etc. for maybe hundreds of years, suddenly decide to all add a "no CB" line to their teachings at the same time by pure coincidence? That looks to be wholly irrational indeed.

And I have explained many times why I think the said global environmentalist group can't possibly to be ideologically opposed to CB, and why some new small terrorist group that has "no CB" as their ideology would likely not bother CB at all, and would not be rational neither. Again you'd be surprised how powerful money can be, especially if that "little cash" can be billions of dollars that may greatly help the terrorist organization further their own goal.

The thing that's completely irrational so far in the show is the existence of CB (which I hope later on they can explain it better, especially that computer stuff and things), not the terrorist group. The whole situation seems completely unlikely because CB is completely unlikely. We don't have an organization like CB that may require certain nations to try sponsoring some terrorist group against it. In real world when some nations sponsor terrorist groups, they usually have the common goals, however since this can't be the case with CB, so we end up in a strange situation that as long as the money flows, the terrorists do the attacks, but when it stops, they have no motivation to do any more attacks. That's why I said CB would not face against some terrorist groups (or parts of some terrorist groups) that don't have a centralized system.

Last edited by dreamless; 2007-12-01 at 01:39.
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Old 2007-12-01, 01:43   Link #355
4Tran
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well, mobile armors and mobile suits are apparently some standard weapons in Gundam 00's world, remember the terrorists in the first episode already has some outdated mobile suits. It's like some extremist environmentalist group can have some gunboats in real world.
The difference is that this materiel requires a certain amount of organization, supplies, and infrastructure to maintain and deploy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
how can you be so sure, since we don't know much about the terrorist group as a whole at all. it may have some splinter groups that didn't take part in the bombings.
This doesn't really affect my argument; I'm referring to the fact that real life terrorist organizations that rely on being inconspicuous for survival don't go around acquire large, maintenance-intensive military hardware that makes it easy to find them. By doing so, the Gundam 00 terrorists are nothing like real ones.

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Originally Posted by dreamless
well, from how the shows going, it surely looks like AEU knows the rough location of the environmentalist HQs all the time.
If that were the case, then why would the AEU leave them alone?

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Originally Posted by dreamless
That's why they deduced that there must be some people behind that give the terrorists tons of money to do those attacks.
This also brings up troubling questions - why would any terrorists attack random targets for funds and other resources unless they had close ties to said country? And if their ties were so close, then why would any country risk use a catspaw that's traceable to themselves? This is especially true since they've basically made enemies out of every power bloc out there. In a way, the more we examine this line of thought, the worse the idea appears.
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Old 2007-12-01, 02:06   Link #356
dreamless
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The difference is that this materiel requires a certain amount of organization, supplies, and infrastructure to maintain and deploy.

This doesn't really affect my argument; I'm referring to the fact that real life terrorist organizations that rely on being inconspicuous for survival don't go around acquire large, maintenance-intensive military hardware that makes it easy to find them. By doing so, the Gundam 00 terrorists are nothing like real ones.
Like I said, it doesn't seem to require much maintenance and stuff when it looks like it's normal for terrorists and guerilla groups to have MS in the Gundam 00 universe. so like I said, if we make a real world parallel, the terrorist group having MS would be like real world environmental extremists having some gunboats to raid whaling ships.

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If that were the case, then why would the AEU leave them alone?
who knows? maybe because back in the days they didn't do anything more than sinking some random whaling ships? And AEU is not a completely unified entity (nor is Union, nor maybe HRL), maybe it's one of the AEU's member country that's funding the group. And it's understandable if they won't risk taking military actions themselves now when CB is watching up there ready to attack anyone with a gun If I take the speculation a bit farther, maybe the HQs that AEU exposed to CB are those of some problematic factions within the terrorist group (interrogating the captured guy, "oh, so you are from the blowing up junk food faction, not the sinking whaling ship faction") while the other factions that didn't participate in the attacks are not exposed by AEU at all...

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This also brings up troubling questions - why would any terrorists attack random targets for funds and other resources unless they had close ties to said country? And if their ties were so close, then why would any country risk use a catspaw that's traceable to themselves? This is especially true since they've basically made enemies out of every power bloc out there. In a way, the more we examine this line of thought, the worse the idea appears.
well, like I said, we don't have CB in our world, the root of all these troubling situations. Also I don't think the terrorists need to have some close ties to the sponsor, as long as the money is there.

It's really hard to make a real world parallel here because we can't really imagine what if (a big IF) an organization pops up in real world that basically makes US to have more than 500 billions of military budget on their hands but they can't spend it as they fear the attacks from the said organization, maybe some guy in CIA will decide to give a tiny bit of the 500 billion bucks to Al Qaeda and try to work out something in hope to undermine that almighty organization, and Taliban will be the one selling out the info on Al Qaeda, or some fiasco like that

Last edited by dreamless; 2007-12-01 at 02:48.
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Old 2007-12-01, 05:04   Link #357
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So why are we caring how the terrorists are organized again? Does it even matter? Real terrorists really probably do have fleeting headquarters on top of splinter cells. Why is this up for discussion at all?
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Old 2007-12-01, 09:27   Link #358
4Tran
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Originally Posted by dreamless
Like I said, it doesn't seem to require much maintenance and stuff when it looks like it's normal for terrorists and guerilla groups to have MS in the Gundam 00 universe. so like I said, if we make a real world parallel, the terrorist group having MS would be like real world environmental extremists having some gunboats to raid whaling ships.
Nah, It'd be like the IRA with tanks and fighters.

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Originally Posted by dreamless
who knows? maybe because back in the days they didn't do anything more than sinking some random whaling ships? And AEU is not a completely unified entity (nor is Union, nor maybe HRL), maybe it's one of the AEU's member country that's funding the group. And it's understandable if they won't risk taking military actions themselves now when CB is watching up there ready to attack anyone with a gun If I take the speculation a bit farther, maybe the HQs that AEU exposed to CB are those of some problematic factions within the terrorist group (interrogating the captured guy, "oh, so you are from the blowing up junk food faction, not the sinking whaling ship faction") while the other factions that didn't participate in the attacks are not exposed by AEU at all...
None of these explanations are even slightly convincing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
well, like I said, we don't have CB in our world, the root of all these troubling situations.
I doubt that their non-presence makes that much difference since the terrorist groups and geopolitical situations existed long before Celestial Being made their presence felt.

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Originally Posted by dreamless
It's really hard to make a real world parallel here because we can't really imagine what if (a big IF) an organization pops up in real world that basically makes US to have more than 500 billions of military budget on their hands but they can't spend it as they fear the attacks from the said organization, maybe some guy in CIA will decide to give a tiny bit of the 500 billion bucks to Al Qaeda and try to work out something in hope to undermine that almighty organization, and Taliban will be the one selling out the info on Al Qaeda, or some fiasco like that
That's not convincing either. Terrorist organizations are primarily ideologically driven, so why would they act against their own interest just for monetary gain?
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Old 2007-12-01, 10:19   Link #359
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Nah, It'd be like the IRA with tanks and fighters.
nah you need to talk within the context. It's clearly shown that MS are common for terrorists and guerilla groups. so unless you think it's common for real world terrorists and guerilla groups to have tanks and fighters, the MS in Gundam 00 universe is more like gunboats instead of tanks and fighters.

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None of these explanations are even slightly convincing.
Looks convincing enough for me. Of course you can think whatever you want, but you won't be any more convincing when all you can say is "they are not even slightly convincing"

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I doubt that their non-presence makes that much difference since the terrorist groups and geopolitical situations existed long before Celestial Being made their presence felt.
And like I said the weirdness in this situation is because of the CB, not because of the terrorists. The terrorists group (or part of the group) with a centralized system can have many real world parallels.

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That's not convincing either. Terrorist organizations are primarily ideologically driven, so why would they act against their own interest just for monetary gain?
Because monetary gain can further their own interest greatly? And it's not against their own interest anyway, they are to bomb some cities, not some forest to destroy environment. Again, looks convincing enough for me
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Old 2007-12-01, 17:32   Link #360
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Guys, can't we just agree the terrorists acted like morrons so the CB could look good blowing them up?

Sure, the terrorists need some sort of command structure, but it's a lot more likely to be a basement somewhere or the tent of a friendly tribal leader. The September 11 attack was coordinated from an appartment in Germany. The whole point of being a terrorist is not having a huge infrastructure. And you can be damn sure the leaders won't be anywhere near instalations you can blow up with an air strike without killing lots of civilians.

We're puitting a lot more thought into it than the writer ever will, let's just take it for what it is.

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