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Old 2007-12-06, 01:33   Link #101
hobbes_fan
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That's correct use slot 1 and 3. Can't help you with the heatsink backplate issue as AMD methods are massively different.
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Old 2007-12-06, 01:33   Link #102
teachopvutru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
The backplate as in, the hardly sturdy aluminum plate that comes with the Mobo and attaches to the back of the case? If so then you'll have to see which way it's pointing. Just try it out up close, because I doubt you'll miss it if you do. If you want to know which way you attach it to the case, then it is likely that it's from the outside of the case inwards, instead of being the opposite. I could be wrong, though, since it's been some time since I last took mine out.
Yep, although that wasn't what I meant. Nvm though, now that I see the position the motherboard goes, I know where I'll put the cover plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
Also, when you actually get your hands on the working machine, remove one stick and run Memtest86. If you have no errors, pluck it out, insert the other stick and do it again. It'll ensure that you know if your sticks have any errors in them. Ram is pretty picky sometimes, and you could end up having a lot of crazy behavior that is just hard to figure out the reason behind.
I would have to turn off the computer and remove the power supply before removing the stick right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
Fight-o! Keep working on it
Thanks, haven't started it yet, though... This is kinda like preparing. It would suck later if I have to stop in the middle too much. Plus, it's hard to feel motivated to do it when it's school day ;( . With that say, ubulabalulababubalabu, please let there be snow day tomorrow.

EDIT:
On another note, looks like the case already came with a fan already installed on the back. If I receive the power supply, that would means 2 fans on the back of the case...
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Old 2007-12-06, 01:38   Link #103
hobbes_fan
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I just realized how young you are, good job at taking a little bit of initiative and DIY
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Old 2007-12-06, 01:51   Link #104
teachopvutru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes_fan View Post
I just realized how young you are, good job at taking a little bit of initiative and DIY
hehe, thanks I'm pretty lucky, though, that my dad allows me to do this. (in fact, he encourages it)

As for what Zero said regarding memtest86, it's probably still early to mention it but should that be done after configuring the BIOS or before that?

EDIT:
Just curiosity but if let's say, I install another memory stick, then there would be a Dual Channel and a non-Dual-Channel?

And just to make sure there are not any gotchas, when 2 sticks are there and memtest86 runs with no error, I can just assume that there's no harm done in either stick, right?
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Old 2007-12-06, 02:16   Link #105
hobbes_fan
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Once you add a third stick, dual channel is gone (dual meaning two). But the performance gain by dual channel is offset by the added ram. But as I said it'd be very marginal gains across most applications anyway to add more ram.

You need to have RAM installed to get to the BIOS screen usually.

If yoy're not really tweaking don't bother with BIOS too much apart from boot up order of your devices (DVD first then HDD) and setting the time. The BIOS is a good thing but if you're not to sure with what you're doing and start playing with certain settings certain irreversible damage can be done (setting voltages in particular). I use Asus boards mainly but generally they detect hardware atuomatically.

Run memtest first, we'll discuss issues later (can be complicated an will need specific responses).

Memetest is a tool I use to check my ram settings and integrity, I psh my system components to the max so I let it loop for around 24 hours. Yo won't need to do this just let it run in a loop 3-4 times (not just one test). Nothing shows up everything is good.
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Old 2007-12-06, 02:51   Link #106
teachopvutru
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Well yea... my dad and one of my sis keep urging me to go for 3GB RAM. I told them no and passed on your words that there's not much gain from it. Although I wouldn't go for 3GB either way, when they asked me why 1GB to 2GB made a difference and 2GB to 3GB wouldn't, I found myself unable to answer. But I'm pretty sure (maybe?) that it's because there's no particular need for that much RAM...

Regarding running memtest first or configuring BIOS first, I asked that because I'm wondering whether the CD/DVD drive will be set to boot as default, or if I need to configure the BIOS first to set CD/DVD drive to boot.

As for memtest program, should I go for memtest86 or memtest86+?

PS: Sobs, still no sign of Snow Day ;_;
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Old 2007-12-06, 03:15   Link #107
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Because 32 bit programs can utilize 2 GBs of memory while not 3 GBs.... Bigger doesn't always mean better.
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Old 2007-12-06, 03:26   Link #108
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiachopvutru View Post
Hmmm, so how did you deal with the part about how your laptop and your charges may be higher than that RAM?
Prayed a bit before starting.

Just kidding, I know that where I am now is a relatively low-static environment, so I was relatively certain that it was safe. I touched the laptop while it was plugged in (this one has a cable with three prongs, although I don't know that it really grounds it as the battery complicates things), and then touched the RAM.

As to why 2 GB is better than 3 GB, the practical reason is partially what problemedchild said, and also partially that most people will not even nearly make full use of 2 GB of RAM. If I have a computer where I can stick 8 GB of RAM in there, that's great for bragging rights, but what does it matter if I'll never use more than 2 GB?

Actually, that sort of touches on another point. A computer is a tool - don't forget that. When people get into what are affectionately known as "pissing contests" about which is better - Linux, Mac, Windows, etc. - it completely ignores the fact that we're not running what we're running just for looks, as if it were a car. We're using computers to get work done. You should use what operating system, computer, and software works best for what you're trying to get done. So back to the case of RAM, if you'd be just fine with 512 MB of RAM, getting anything more would be a waste of money.

I personally have 3 GB in my system, because I do psuedo-heavy media applications and, more importantly, I virtualize other operating systems (sometimes I go crazy and do both at the same time). I'd go for 4 GB, especially given that another 2 GB module costs under $40 (and I thought I was getting a good deal when I got mine for $80!), but my system's architecture actually can't support it - it would see 4 GB, but it actually wouldn't be able to use more than 3.2 GB or so. It has to do with memory addressing on the motherboard, or some such thing. It's a pity. (But maybe I'll buy another 2 GB module anyway, they're so cheap right now!)
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Old 2007-12-06, 03:28   Link #109
hobbes_fan
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Ok here's the thing I'm applying: "the theory of diminishing returns"

basically sometimes the more you put in isn't worth the expense in terms of performance for what you pay.

simple example

a Pontiac GTO costs about $40,000USD
a Mcalren f1 costs 1 million USD (roughly 25x the Pontiac)

OK the Mclaren is has a top speed of around 400km/h, the Pontiac has a top speed of around 250km/h. Sure it's faster but is it 25 times faster? Yes there's other things to consider like street cred but in terms of pure performance it's a different story.

Apply the same theory here, another $50 for maybe 10% (estimate) performance in SOME applications mainly encoding based apps. Not worth it IMO. You're not a hardcore gamer as you said.

http://www.memtest86.com/

Save the $50, buy a game, take your g/f out , buy some DVD's, (or SPEAKERS for your new rig) have a good time.
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Last edited by hobbes_fan; 2007-12-06 at 03:40.
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Old 2007-12-06, 03:32   Link #110
teachopvutru
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@hobbes_fan: I can make sense of that but it's still hard to answer anyway.

So err, 32-bit OS can utilize 3.25GB of RAM, but 32-bit program can only use 2GB?

PS: Still no sign of snow day... Imma go to sleep just to be safe ;_;

@Ledgem: what makes an environment low static? Humidity is 50% these days where I live. What else would factor into it, though?

(Just did a surgery on the case to see how it's set up )
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Old 2007-12-06, 03:58   Link #111
hobbes_fan
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ANy 32 bit operating system can only "see" 3.25gb total. Therefore that's all any program rnning in the environment can use. It's a limitation of the software. The performance gap between 1 gb ram and 2 gb ram is quite large, where as the difference between 2gb and 3gb is minimal. That is why we recommend 2gb. Most programs don't need anywhere near 3gb to operate smoothly. Games and Photo editing, Video/audio encoding are the only programs generally to my knowledge that will even use 2gb anywhere near properly

I'm pretty sre windy days and thunderstorm connditions are the high static periods. Not sure about humidity being a major factor
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Old 2007-12-06, 03:58   Link #112
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiachopvutru View Post
So err, 32-bit OS can utilize 3.25GB of RAM, but 32-bit program can only use 2GB?
32 bit anything can't address more than 2 GB. The 3.3 GB limitation that I mentioned is a hardware limitation on my model of Macbook Pro. The version that came out afterward was able to address 4 GB. But don't get confused: when we're discussing 32 bits, we're talking about software. My personal griping was a hardware thing that shouldn't affect anyone, unless you're buying a used Macbook Pro.

Quote:
@Ledgem: what makes an environment low static? Humidity is 50% these days where I live. What else would factor into it, though?
Humidity is one factor, as you mentioned. Temperature is partially another. Anywhere that there is friction is likely a high-static environment. So in theory, an environment where there is a lot of sand/dust being blown around could lead to more static, due to the rubbing of particles over other surfaces.

But I'd say that's mostly theoretical. I can determine if an environment is high-static or not partially through experience (if I felt static). I'm also luckily endowed with fine hair on my arms. This is favorable for two reasons: it scores love points with my girlfriend (not all girls like that, but hey - you can always remove hair, but you can't always grow it!), and it lets me determine if I'm in a high static environment. If the environment is very charged, or potentially if I'm very charged myself, then my hairs stick up, and I can feel it as well. You may also be able to have something similar with the hair on your head, assuming that your hair isn't too thick, insulated by oils, or too long.

Off-topic note, this seems to be the most popular and active thread in this sub-forum at the moment!
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Old 2007-12-06, 04:10   Link #113
hobbes_fan
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It's got it all. It's bordering 4ch insanity
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Old 2007-12-06, 06:20   Link #114
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It's got it all. It's bordering 4ch insanity
That place was so much better before everyone on the internet found it.......
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Old 2007-12-06, 09:48   Link #115
Zero Shinohara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by problemedchild
That place was so much better before everyone on the internet found it.......
Hahaha, true. It was a lot more fun before the hordes of idiots either. Oh and before the whole WORLD found out about it through Fox News Specials and idiots like the Finland shootings, Bomb threats & etc.

@hobbes_fan and Ledgem:

Wow, lol. Great analogies up there, comparing computers with cars. I guess I never stopped to think much about it, but now that you two pointed that stuff out, they really do similar :P I do like the GTO but the McLaren appeals to me more I'm a sucker, I know.

Anyway, like said, you won't be able to get past the initial boot screen unless you have some basic hardware there. Meaning one hard drive and one stick of ram. My experience with the 680i is that the first booting device was set to be a 1 3/4, then the HD and THEN the DVD drive - which kind of sounds smart since a lot of people who have performance in mind will load up diskettes with proggies like Memtest first. Still, you'll have to find those options on your own and set them to their right values. It could be a pain, but trust me, they're there.


Quote:
Well yea... my dad and one of my sis keep urging me to go for 3GB RAM. I told them no and passed on your words that there's not much gain from it. Although I wouldn't go for 3GB either way, when they asked me why 1GB to 2GB made a difference and 2GB to 3GB wouldn't, I found myself unable to answer. But I'm pretty sure (maybe?) that it's because there's no particular need for that much RAM...
Like everyone else has said, the quantity of RAM starts meaning less and less as you start approaching the 2GB area, because most programs won't even load your computer that much. Besides, with dual channel, you'll have 4 gigs of memory "total", meaning that your 2 gigs just "magically" became 4. Don't ask me how that is achieved because I don't know, but if you CTRL+ALT+DEL to the Device Manager, you'll see something like: "Using 630/3920". It could be virtual memory, I just don't know. I would be inclined to say that having 3 gigs of real ram is better than having 2 gigs of real ram and 2 gigs of fabricated ram, but that's basically not one of the points I have a lot of knowledge about, so I'll leave it at that.

And to understand the reason why 32-bit OS only accepts a maximum of 4 gigs of ram and, taking out what's used for Kernel and system paging and what-not, leaves you with around 3.2 gigs for personal use, you'll have to understand a bit about 2-s complement. Not one of my strong points either, but here we go.

Computer language works in Bits and bytes. One bit is composed of either one of the two characters, 1 and 0. One byte is composed of a number of bits put together and the biggest number they can form together. For example, if you have a 4-bit byte, it will look like this:

0 0 0 0 - Which turns out to be zero. In mathematical terms, it works like: 2^3 + 2^2 + 2^1 + 2^0. Because you have all 0's for the byte, nothing will come out of it since that is the way 2-s complement works. On the other hand, if you had 0 1 1 1, you'll get 7. Funny enough, 1 1 1 1 will return a -8. Why? Because the first byte is known as the "negative" byte, which toggles the whole bit into a negative and then adds that one to it.

Confused yet? Well, just think the following: 32-bit OSs work with 2^32 bits. 64-bit OSs work with 2^64 bits. Just imagine having to work with all that stuff by hand. A handful, eh? This is one of the reasons I find Computer Tech so amazing - that out of strings of 1s and 0s you can pull out the biggest shaping factor in society since the industrial revolution.

So, basically, 2^32 = roughly 4.294.000.000 or 4.3 billion memory locations of 32-bits each. On the other hand, 2^64 = A couple of ... ugh, if you figure out this number, lemme know :


Which is probably worthy of a Gundam


Anyway, Ledgem, I'm placing all my emotional distress upon you beginning now! I just spent a couple of hours yesterday setting a game recommended to me by a friend, called Triptych. It's in the good old visual novel format and using Atlas for real-time translations of the text is helping a bit in understanding the outlining story, although the Engrish that comes with it is still too hard to make out for 80% of the time - In fact, I preffer when the characters actually talk, since I can understand more of that than what comes out in the translator. Pretty sad, I know. Pretty good game so far, though I'm still at the beginning. HOWEVER, I am here in complete distress because that said friend of mine just left out a HUEG spoiler: Maya ain't a maiden anymore. I MEAN HOW COULD THIS BE, MY SWEET MAYA, HOW COULD THIS BE POSSIBLE?

My nerd/otaku/NEET/Hikkikomori neurons are firing and the pain in my chest is too unbearable to keep on. Perhaps I should become an hero by eating a whole box of Crispy Cremes on my own.

Edit: Oh crap, oh crap oh crap oh crap. I think I will get extremelly p*ssed off with the protagonist of this game as I go through it, I really do. Makotofag, you have competition in the most hated eroge main characters coming in from eastboard very quick.

[drama]See?! This is why I stick to 3D stuff nowadays. The psychological strain is too much ;_;[/drama]
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Old 2007-12-06, 14:25   Link #116
Sephi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
Like everyone else has said, the quantity of RAM starts meaning less and less as you start approaching the 2GB area, because most programs won't even load your computer that much. Besides, with dual channel, you'll have 4 gigs of memory "total", meaning that your 2 gigs just "magically" became 4. Don't ask me how that is achieved because I don't know, but if you CTRL+ALT+DEL to the Device Manager, you'll see something like: "". It could be virtual memory, I just don't know. I would be inclined to say that having 3 gigs of real ram is better than having 2 gigs of real ram and 2 gigs of fabricated ram, but that's basically not one of the points I have a lot of knowledge about, so I'll leave it at that.
Dual channel isn't really comparable like that. It doesn't turn in to 4gb... And 4gb ram without dual channel isn't equal to 2Gb dual channel.
Wiki has a decent article about it. Explaining dual channel. But for more info you can always google.

And that Task Manager showing "Using 630/3920" is your ram and your page file added together. Mine actually says Commit Charge.
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Old 2007-12-06, 16:00   Link #117
hobbes_fan
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dual channel doesn't work like that, all dual channelling does is increase the usable bandwidth of RAM. It just increases the efficiency of read write processes. It's maybe good for like 1-2% improved performance
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Old 2007-12-06, 16:38   Link #118
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
Like everyone else has said, the quantity of RAM starts meaning less and less as you start approaching the 2GB area, because most programs won't even load your computer that much. Besides, with dual channel, you'll have 4 gigs of memory "total", meaning that your 2 gigs just "magically" became 4.
People have already jumped on you about the dual channel thing, but we understand - you're undergoing emotional distress at finding out that an extremely attractive female character was actually a male Don't feel too bad, it could be worse - you could have had the same experience, just in real life. (I've sort of had it happen, but to my credit, the person in question was an actual transvestite...)

The way that dual channel RAM works is that the processor basically divides where it's sending its tasks to. When the processor sends something off to the RAM, it has to wait for the RAM to complete its calculations before data is sent back to the processor. As our components have become faster and faster, this lag time has become an actual factor for some people. By interleaving sends between separate RAM modules, the lag times are dealt with in a more efficient manner.

Current literature states that in order for dual channel RAM to work, both modules must be the same size and type. The explanation is in how dual channel works, although I don't really understand why it'd have to be that way.

How important is dual channel vs. regular RAM? Dual channel will provide a performance boost (moreso in certain applications than others, as is usual with most computer enhancements), but tests have shown that you get better system performance by having more RAM vs. having less RAM that is operating in dual channel.

Also I want to make a correction - somewhere above I mentioned that the limit of 32 bit software is 2 GB, but it should be 4 GB, if I remember right. I just recall the Windows ME days, and some tech was telling me that Windows wouldn't see more than 1 GB of RAM. Ha ha.

With regard to HGames, be careful HGames are serious business!
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Old 2007-12-06, 16:59   Link #119
hobbes_fan
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It's frightening how convincing trannies are these days. Until they talk. Hint for the young lads starting to go out to pubs and nightclubs: When they have a deeper voice than you, walk away unless you're keen to be surprised at a later stage.
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Old 2007-12-06, 17:29   Link #120
teachopvutru
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Sob. Why!? Why!!?? Why was it 2 hours delay and not snow day!!!??? ;_;

Anyway, just got back home (an hour ago). They dropped the PSU and the monitor in front of the house (why didn't they just do that yesterday too? <.<).

Regarding the RAM thing, it would come in handy if let's say, I open a whole bunch of applications, right? (not going to buy extra RAM, just curious) Also, what you mean is that it can "see" 4GB of RAM but a single application can only use 2GB of it?

Regarding speaker, I'm wondering how much boost in sound I would get? Or rather, how good is the integrated sound card from my motherboard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes_fan View Post
It's got it all. It's bordering 4ch insanity
What's 4ch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
Computer language works in Bits and bytes. One bit is composed of either one of the two characters, 1 and 0. One byte is composed of a number of bits put together and the biggest number they can form together. For example, if you have a 4-bit byte, it will look like this:

0 0 0 0 - Which turns out to be zero. In mathematical terms, it works like: 2^3 + 2^2 + 2^1 + 2^0. Because you have all 0's for the byte, nothing will come out of it since that is the way 2-s complement works. On the other hand, if you had 0 1 1 1, you'll get 7. Funny enough, 1 1 1 1 will return a -8. Why? Because the first byte is known as the "negative" byte, which toggles the whole bit into a negative and then adds that one to it.
I know this bit and byte stuff. Don't know the "negative" thingy though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
So, basically, 2^32 = roughly 4.294.000.000 or 4.3 billion memory locations of 32-bits each. On the other hand, 2^64 = A couple of ... ugh, if you figure out this number, lemme know :
*go to wikipedia.com*
let's see let's see...
eighteen-quintillion-four-hundred-forty-six-quadrillion-seven-hundred-forty-four-trillion-seventy-three-billion -seven-hundred-and-nine-million-five-hundred-fifty-one-thousand-and-six-hundred-and-sixteen

Conclusion: it hasn't reached the googolplex mark yet!

Anyway, seeing how "small" the number is, I guess when people actually convert to 64-bit, we'll stay there for a very long time. If I'm correct, the reason why 32-bit is still so popular is because there's no demand for higher one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
[drama]See?! This is why I stick to 3D stuff nowadays. The psychological strain is too much ;_;[/drama]
Pointer or 2D? Now Choose!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes_fan View Post
It's frightening how convincing trannies are these days. Until they talk. Hint for the young lads starting to go out to pubs and nightclubs: When they have a deeper voice than you, walk away unless you're keen to be surprised at a later stage.
Was wondering what trannies is but did a google on it and pop up some pretty "dangerous" results...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes_fan View Post
It's got it all. It's bordering 4ch insanity
Yep, Computer/Electronic/Game/Mature Contents


PS: Regarding the PSU, should I test the 110/220v trail thingy before or after I put them together?

Off topic: Oh man... homeworks... ;_;
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