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Old 2004-05-13, 21:49   Link #101
Oblodra
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i wonder if its because such games started out from companies that were not really well known, and despite having a good story, they decide to add ero stuff so that they can sell (theres always ppl out to buy ero stuff). cos, as yukari said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by yukari_kiss
just simple hugging and words can convey the idea across just as well and words...oh yes words
kanon the anime itself already has such a wonderful story. but when i originally told my friend it was hentai, he was skeptical about it... i guess he expected tentacles galore or something anyway, im passing kanon the anime around, and that friend advised me not to say its based on an ero-game. its sterotyping. but, after all, anything with sex in it is generally limited to people 18 and above (or in some places, even older) so it figures that any company creating something (movie/game) with adult content would rely on that content to sell, cos they already limited their product to a certain group of people. if they relied on their story, why put adult content in it at all? without adult content, people under 18 can buy their products too, and thats a big market... so, its in everyones minds that anything thats for adults must have lots of ahem, action. Also, just look. after people found that kanon the anime was really good, kanon-for-all-ages was released...

u see shows with relationships on tv and movies everywhere, and most have no adult content, after all. u r convinced all the same that Girl A really loves Boy B, etc etc... so y should kanon or kgne be an exception?

games like kanon, and other aforementioned, r really rare cases, i guess...
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Old 2004-05-14, 10:57   Link #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblodra
if they relied on their story, why put adult content in it at all? without adult content, people under 18 can buy their products too, and thats a big market... so, its in everyones minds that anything thats for adults must have lots of ahem, action. Also, just look. after people found that kanon the anime was really good, kanon-for-all-ages was released...

u see shows with relationships on tv and movies everywhere, and most have no adult content, after all. u r convinced all the same that Girl A really loves Boy B, etc etc... so y should kanon or kgne be an exception?

games like kanon, and other aforementioned, r really rare cases, i guess...
Well, I guess what you have to consider here is the target audience and the marketplace, and unfortunately that means looking at the stereotypes. Unlike most relationship-based shows you see on TV and in the movies, bishoujo games are targeted almost squarely at guys (hence the one-guy, many-girls premise). The amount of guys who are interested in pure romance stories are, unfortunately, very slim. Even looking here on these message boards, which are probably a bit unproportionate, you've got a heck of a lot more people posting on the Naruto forum than here in the Kanon Discussion thread (not that there's anything wrong with that - it simply reflects the interests of most guys). So, if you made a romance-game aimed at guys, your potential market is quite niche - in order to get your money back, you need to do a really great job in marketing.

However, enter the trump card. Again, I have to play to the stereotype, but almost all guys are interested in sex. As you know, the sex industry is pretty much the only industry that has existed in every civilization since the dawn of mankind. Market research shows "sex sells". It didn't take long for the companies interested in making these games, even those focused on story (like Key), to see where the money is. As you mention, though, once the popularity grows, many companies then release an "all-ages" version, which in some cases is how they intended the story to be presented in the first place. It allows them to tap into whole new markets (the console markets, for example), and reach whole new audiences (those younger than 18, those unwilling to buy ero-games, those interested in pure romance stories).

That being said, the market has grown since then. As you may know, Key's new game (Clannad) is only being released as an all-ages game (with no ero content). Perhaps that means that the days of having to have ero content just to sell are behind us... the sales figures will give us the answer. Even if Clannad is successful, though, Key is one of the most successful companies in the industry... could other companies do the same thing and be successful? That all remains to be seen...

For those of us who are interested in pure romance anime and games, but not terribly interested in the sex side so frequently associated with the genre, it can be a bit frustrating. However, you have to remember that we are probably one of the smallest minority segments in the gaming/anime market.
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Old 2004-05-14, 18:23   Link #103
TronDD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Even looking here on these message boards, which are probably a bit unproportionate, you've got a heck of a lot more people posting on the Naruto forum than here in the Kanon Discussion thread (not that there's anything wrong with that - it simply reflects the interests of most guys).

However, enter the trump card. Again, I have to play to the stereotype, but almost all guys are interested in sex. As you know, the sex industry is pretty much the only industry that has existed in every civilization since the dawn of mankind. Market research shows "sex sells".
I think there are more people on this board with "hentai army" sigs than us who prefer ero-less romance.

Hmm...I was going to respond to the rest of your post but it was well said and I can't think of anything to add.

I'm curious what the actual market ratio is for these types of games. How many and how well do H-games sell? And H-games with a good story vs. H-games that are basically porn vs. that type of game with no H content.
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Old 2004-05-14, 18:40   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
I think there are more people on this board with "hentai army" sigs than us who prefer ero-less romance.

Hmm...I was going to respond to the rest of your post but it was well said and I can't think of anything to add.

I'm curious what the actual market ratio is for these types of games. How many and how well do H-games sell? And H-games with a good story vs. H-games that are basically porn vs. that type of game with no H content.
I was asking the same question a while back. Anyone can provide stats?

Although I'm pretty sure that:

No H content > H-game with good story > H-game porn
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Old 2004-05-14, 19:03   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemist
No H content > H-game with good story > H-game porn
If those are the actual sales trends, I'd be amazed. The two top-selling ero-games up to now, I believe, are Tsukihime and Air, both renouned for their story, but with ero content. It leads me to believe that, in terms of the top sellers, it's probably ero+story > ero > no-ero. In terms of number of titles, though, I wonder if it's more like ero > no-ero > ero+story. The ero-games with amazing stories seem to be the rarest of all - they are generally considered the gems of bishoujo games, from what little I understand. As everyone says, though, we need some real stats; this is just speculation.
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Old 2004-05-14, 19:13   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemist
No H content > H-game with good story > H-game porn
You are talking about just games of simailar type to Kanon, right?

Non-H verisons go to the consoles which is a pretty big market (big under 18) but I just can't picture 15 year old boys playing Kanon, crying in front of their Dreamcast.
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Old 2004-05-14, 19:39   Link #107
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemist
I was asking the same question a while back. Anyone can provide stats?

Although I'm pretty sure that:

No H content > H-game with good story > H-game porn
No, these types of games are always first released as an ero-game. When that ero-game becomes a huge hit, it will then go consumer without any ero-scenes, add some new characters and do modest sales.

The current cycle is:

1. Release PC ero-game with good story, make great sales
2. Release that game on consumer machines without ero + add new characters, make modest sales
3. Re-import that game back onto the PC format with added characters and add ero back in, make modest sales

Hence:
H-game with good story > No H content > H-game porn
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Old 2004-05-14, 20:14   Link #108
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CLANNAD can't be the first to not include ero content right from the start. Are they that much of a minority? Do any of them sell well at all?
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Old 2004-05-14, 23:15   Link #109
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Something else I realized is that the series could just as well end at Ep. 12 albeit a more mobid one. If they ever license this series here, they should only release episodes 1-12 and maybe later release 13 with Kazahana as the OVA. Any thoughts?
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Old 2004-05-14, 23:34   Link #110
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Originally Posted by roguenoir
Something else I realized is that the series could just as well end at Ep. 12 albeit a more mobid one. If they ever license this series here, they should only release episodes 1-12 and maybe later release 13 with Kazahana as the OVA. Any thoughts?
Does 12 end
Spoiler:


I suppose ep13 could be considered extra but isn't it the real end to Ayu's story (it's definatly the ending to the series)? I don't see why they'd not want to make it part of the series. Why change the ending like that?
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Old 2004-05-15, 00:27   Link #111
roguenoir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
Does 12 end
Spoiler:


I suppose ep13 could be considered extra but isn't it the real end to Ayu's story (it's definatly the ending to the series)? I don't see why they'd not want to make it part of the series. Why change the ending like that?
The last episode seems a bit "fake" in a way that everyone and everything seems to have evolved for the better for the sake of having a happy ending.

Quote:
*sniff* Excuse me, I have something in my eye)
That's the whole point...
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Old 2004-05-15, 00:53   Link #112
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Originally Posted by roguenoir
The last episode seems a bit "fake" in a way that everyone and everything seems to have evolved for the better for the sake of having a happy ending.
I'll have to go back and see where the last episode picks up. I don't remember exactly. I don't think it seemed "fake" to me but it did seem like "we've beat the hell out of you emotionally leaving scars that will never heal, but hey here's a happy ending, try to enjoy it." It didn't make up for all the sadness but I think it provided an ending like what you would get in the game. Game-wise, you can't pick a girl and have her end up not liking you, or dead, or something like that.
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Old 2004-05-15, 02:34   Link #113
bluemist
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Anyone know about Kanon Kazahana? Is it an anime original or is it part of the original game (or any other version of it)?

That ended too happily as well.
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Old 2004-05-15, 05:17   Link #114
yukari_kiss
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yeah, everything ended too happily, but i reckon that satisfies audiences, you know...coz altho it's like cliche or watever, everyone can feel the warmth in the heart and have some kind of hope going on in their own lives even though we know the anime is not real...

i know, i'm such a sucker for all these love, hope and dream stuff...:P
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Old 2004-05-15, 05:29   Link #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemist
Anyone know about Kanon Kazahana? Is it an anime original or is it part of the original game (or any other version of it)?

That ended too happily as well.
I think Kazahana is just the special episode that sort of fill in the 'gap', and tell the other things that happened before the ending of the final episode of series....Kazahana's ending actually the same one as the series's ending event wise, where Ayu had her hair cut and was going on a date with Yuuichi.

And yes there is BT for it listed on animesuki.
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Old 2004-05-15, 19:22   Link #116
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
CLANNAD can't be the first to not include ero content right from the start. Are they that much of a minority? Do any of them sell well at all?
There are games that are released with no ero-content that go directly to consumer first. But these games are mainly backed by already established consumer game makers. For example, Konami's "Tokimeki Memorial." Since it is backed by a large game corporation, they have the money and skill to do huge marketing tactics - i.e. placing a 30 second spot on TV commercials.

Then there are those companies that want a piece of the action, but cannot enter the market because they do not have the expertise, funds, brand name value, and the like.

The option? Sell into the computer game market.

Although there are online RPGs and multi-player games from Nippon Falcom, it is well established that computer games here in Japan do not sell well compared to mass consumer console games. Except for....the ero-game industry. As I said before, "sex sells." You can come up with a great heart-warming story, but let's face it: "How many people will buy a computer game with just a great story?" If you wanted a great story, people will read a novel. If people wanted a great story with beautiful art, they'll buy a console game - but then we go back to the dillemma - not all companies are rich enough to enter the already established consumer game market.

So the story-centered (to distinguish from ero-centered) softhouses such as Key and Leaf think:

A. We have a great story
B. Since our company isn't rich enough (which actually means: "our bank won't loan me such money") to enter the consumer game market
C. Let's sell it into the computer game industry
D. er...wait. The only thing that sells in the computer game industry are ero-games
E. Well, I guess I can re-arrange a certain scene to add some ero in it...


Sure, if you have the guts to release a non-ero game anyway, that's your choice. But then you are faced with the harsh reality at the game software shelf in the computer stores:

A. 70-80% of shelf space is reserved for ero-games
B. the rest "non ero-content games" are shoved off into obscure places where no one tends to look.

Although I don't know how it is in America, but I'm pretty certain it is something like where the regular Hollywood movie DVDs are located versus where the Anime DVDs are on the shelf.


So all in all, it's all about the ero-game. How many copies that you sell in the first several weeks is what establishes fame and income. If you are an upstart company that has an excellent game, but if people don't buy it and if your sales aren't increasing - all you have is debt.

Now, Key released "CLANNAD." It is non ero-game. People bought it. Why? Because by now, Key has well established themselves with "Kanon" and "AIR" that they do not need to rely on adding ero-scenes to get many people to buy their games in the first week.

What counts in this world (and not just games, but in manga as well):

A. Name (brand) value
B. Experience
C. Established precedent
D. MONEY

If you don't have these, then you have start somewhere....and the only place that can give you that chance is the ero-game market. For manga...well, that's why we have doujinshis.

Last edited by kj1980; 2004-05-17 at 23:29.
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Old 2004-05-16, 05:23   Link #117
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there has been a lot of da capo talk goin on here, i was wondering if the anime is any bit at all ecchi or hentai? coz i'm thinking of dl it if there arent much hentai stuff in it (hopefully none at all )
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Old 2004-05-16, 07:35   Link #118
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kj1980: Good info. Interesting how different it is from the American PC game market.

yukari_kiss: Da Capo is clean, definatly see it if you like Kanon.
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Old 2004-05-16, 16:24   Link #119
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Indeed kj1980, you put alot of thought into writing that article. Very well done. Its interesting to see just how different the game industry is in japan compared to here. Japan's industry evolved in a wildly different fashion than did its overseas counterparts. And really, its not just the game industry itself; for the sake of this discussion, I'll note that the 'porn' industry, for lack of a better term, took a far different turn as well. Take a quick look at 80% of japanese ero games, all the characters are for the most part very cute, and are trying to aim for the 'moe moe' appeal. North American industry is far more... streight forward, advertising for desire and lust.

Its interesting to note that in the 80's, there *were* some games here that, like in japan, pioneered into the adult game world. The industry on north america never took off for a great deal of reasons. Sex is a huge public taboo in north america. Also, the games themselves were pretty uninventive and art itself was labeled as a poor alternative to real pornography. Maybe it was widespread piracy of the time and incredibly poor availability. Like the north american cartoon industry, the only games containing 'cartoons', or drawn figures that ever succeeded in the least were comedy.

Regardless of the reasons, the north american game industry evolved to be a figurehead for violence and incredible graphics. Arguably, the PC game industry is larger than that of the console industry. Will you ever find a PC game in north america that has adult material in it? Most likely not, unless it was a localized version of a japanese pc game, which you can for the most part only order online. For this reason, its really hard to imagine the way the japanese industry is. Like kj1980 said, 'sex sells', and while thats defiately true even in north america, anything with an 'A'dult rating will never find its way into software shops.

Japanese ero game localizations are gaining increasing popularity here, but I can't help but wonder wether the north american standard of rampant piracy will kill the industry in the end.
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Old 2004-05-17, 14:19   Link #120
Itlandm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yukari_kiss
there has been a lot of da capo talk goin on here, i was wondering if the anime is any bit at all ecchi or hentai? coz i'm thinking of dl it if there arent much hentai stuff in it (hopefully none at all )
Da Capo is not very ecchi in what it shows ... there is only the smallest glimpse of panties really. But a main love interest is sister of the boy. Even though she is adopted they have lived like brother and sister since they were small. I am not sure I would want children to watch the show because of that.

But overall Da Capo is very similar to Kanon. There is much sadness and quiet romance. Also some nice music, I especially love the song that Kotori sings sometimes in the episodes.
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