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Old 2008-08-14, 19:27   Link #241
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
No it isn't. Nolan wanted to make his films as realistic as possible. So it DOES work. Remember, The Joker was beating on the Mob too and Batman saw the mob as a bigger threat. Not until the Mob hired him did Batman fully realize the threat The Joker posed. So I don't see what you are really trying to get at.
In an artistic medium, especially one centered around one specific character, the majority of the other characters and events occur solely to emphasize, describe, and decipher the 'main character'. There are plenty of visual clues, presented by Nolan, that connect the Joker and Batman well before either character meets (Joker's basic make-up and 'costume' is paralled with Batman's costume; during the scene in which Gordan is "assassinated" both Batman and Joker are seen without their make-up/costumes on; and a plethora of other visual cues that show their connection with each other).

My point is that there are not enough visual cues, especially in the presentation of Batman, that properly lead up to the interrogation room scene (nearly every Joker scene is tied in completely to Batman, but very few of the early Batman scenes have any real subtle connection to Joker; this creates a problem for the symbolic theme of the Dark Knight protecting the soul of the unforgiving city, because until Joker actually mentions this theme (during the interrogation), it was not that evident within the visual structure of the film.)
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Old 2008-08-14, 19:35   Link #242
Orga777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
My point is that there are not enough visual cues, especially in the presentation of Batman, that properly lead up to the interrogation room scene (nearly every Joker scene is tied in completely to Batman, but very few of the early Batman scenes have any real subtle connection to Joker; this creates a problem for the symbolic theme of the Dark Knight protecting the soul of the unforgiving city, because until Joker actually mentions this theme (during the interrogation), it was not that evident within the visual structure of the film.)
Remember, this is Batman's early years. He doesn't understand that much about the complex villains at all and is still learning. The joker on the other hand knows all about Batman because of the way he goes about things. The same cannot be said about Batman at this point in time. I think you are expecting WAY too much from the very first meeting the two have had. Batman never saw this coming and when it did, he was blind-sided by the "unstoppable force." Batman did have parallels during their encounters and during his brooding sessions. They were there, but remember, just like "Batman Begins," things had to be developed first to set it up.

Oh, and I am sure everyone watching the film has no problem seeing the themes between The Joker and Batman so I still don't see it as an issue.
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Old 2008-08-14, 19:57   Link #243
james0246
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Remember, this is Batman's early years. He doesn't understand that much about the complex villains at all and is still learning. The joker on the other hand knows all about Batman because of the way he goes about things. The same cannot be said about Batman at this point in time. I think you are expecting WAY too much from the very first meeting the two have had. Batman never saw this coming and when it did, he was blind-sided by the "unstoppable force." Batman did have parallels during their encounters and during his brooding sessions. They were there, but remember, just like "Batman Begins," things had to be developed first to set it up.

Oh, and I am sure everyone watching the film has no problem seeing the themes between The Joker and Batman so I still don't see it as an issue.
You are not understanding my point. I am not talking about their thematic connection, nor their 'history' together. I am explaining that Nolan did not fully express their visual connection before their interrogation room showdown. This has nothing to do with the basic story of the film, this has to do with the visual definition of Batman and the visual story that the film is showing the audience (all of those words, and sentences, etc enhance a film but are not the heart of a film, rather, what really matters is the visual presentation of the story, which this movie tells quite well except for a few bumps). Nolan did not properly convey their connection visually. By not properly presenting their connection in the visuals, Nolan was forced to use exposition, which is something only bad directors use to explain their story. Instead of Joker explaining that they are fighting for the soul of Gotham, the visuals should tell the whole story, but, besides Joker's early scenes, very little is shown from Batman initially that represents this connection.

Yet again, this was only a minor glitch, in fact I wouldn't be suprised if there were some extra scenes early on that properly defined this connection (visually), but due to time constraints, these early scenes were cut, and will only appear on the DVD.
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Old 2008-08-14, 20:04   Link #244
Orga777
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
You are not understanding my point. I am not talking about their thematic connection, nor their 'history' together. I am explaining that Nolan did not fully express their visual connection before their interrogation room showdown.
That isn't true though. Remember that showdown in the street? "HIT ME!" and Batman didn't. If that isn't showing a visual connection between the two, I don't know what is. Remember they only ran into each other once before that meeting at the apartment, and even there there was some interesting connection between the two. Every other time before that Batman didn't realize him to be important. When he did all he thought about was stopping The Joker and what he would become to stop him. I don't think you are giving the film its due credit here.

Quote:
This has nothing to do with the basic story of the film, this has to do with the visual definition of Batman and the visual story that the film is showing the audience (all of those words, and sentences, etc enhance a film but are not the heart of a film, rather, what really matters is the visual presentation of the story, which this movie tells quite well except for a few bumps). Nolan did not properly convey their connection visually. By not properly presenting their connection in the visuals, Nolan was forced to use exposition, which is something only bad directors use to explain their story. Instead of Joker explaining that they are fighting for the soul of Gotham, the visuals should tell the whole story, but, besides Joker's early scenes, very little is shown from Batman initially that represents this connection.
Ehh... I guess we just have to agree to disagree here then.

Quote:
Yet again, this was only a minor glitch, in fact I wouldn't be suprised if there were some extra scenes early on that properly defined this connection (visually), but due to time constraints, these early scenes were cut, and will only appear on the DVD.
If it was a minor glitch it wouldn't be getting only an 8 from ya.
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Old 2008-08-14, 20:12   Link #245
james0246
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
If it was a minor glitch it wouldn't be getting only an 8 from ya.
It was a mixture of several different things that added up to my score of 8.0-8.3. That being said, I rarely ever give anything above a 8.9 to a 9.0 (for instance High and Low (Tengoku to Jigoku), one of my all around favourite films, only gets a 9.3 on a 10.0 scale).
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Old 2008-08-14, 20:15   Link #246
Orga777
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It was a mixture of several different things that added up to my score of 8.0-8.3. That being said, I rarely ever give anything above a 8.9 to a 9.0 (for instance High and Low (Tengoku to Jigoku), one of my all around favourite films, only gets a 9.3 on a 10.0 scale).
Man... And I thought I was harsh...
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Old 2008-08-15, 00:00   Link #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777
Also, you underestimate the Harvey Dent factor for this movie. He was the whole POINT of the movie.
Damn, I have to goto bed or I would give you a much stronger retort, but as I already stated, I KNOW Harvey Dent's dichotomy was the point of this movie...That point is not lost on me in the least (Which I've clearly said earlier if you scroll back)...My point was that I was less interested in Harvey Dent's scenario than I was the lack of great connection between Batman and Joker...For some it's fine, but for me the Joker should stand in the forefront in a Batman movie...The endgame of this movie should have fallen with the Joker, not some scenario where Harvey Dent tries to shoot Gordon's kid with Batman playing umpire...It was anti-climatic for me...Compared to his endgame with Raz Al Guhl which was so satisfying and epic in it's clash of ideals...This movie could have done the same, but it choose Dent over Joker and I didn't love that fact...
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Old 2008-08-15, 01:09   Link #248
Orga777
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Damn, I have to goto bed or I would give you a much stronger retort, but as I already stated, I KNOW Harvey Dent's dichotomy was the point of this movie...That point is not lost on me in the least (Which I've clearly said earlier if you scroll back)...My point was that I was less interested in Harvey Dent's scenario than I was the lack of great connection between Batman and Joker...For some it's fine, but for me the Joker should stand in the forefront in a Batman movie...The endgame of this movie should have fallen with the Joker, not some scenario where Harvey Dent tries to shoot Gordon's kid with Batman playing umpire...It was anti-climatic for me...Compared to his endgame with Raz Al Guhl which was so satisfying and epic in it's clash of ideals...This movie could have done the same, but it choose Dent over Joker and I didn't love that fact...
Except The Joker said "You always have an ace in the hole." Dent was his ace in the hole. The Joker was teh CAUSE of that situation. So technically, it was STILL The Joker being in the front. Again, he was driving the car.
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Old 2008-08-15, 01:15   Link #249
Ermes Marana
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
The endgame of this movie should have fallen with the Joker

It seemed obvious to me that this movie was setting up for Joker to return in a sequel, and the sequel would have had the Batman/Joker endgame.
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Old 2008-08-15, 09:54   Link #250
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Well after seen it, I have to agree with Orga777. the point about the Movie was about the same theme we saw Killing joke, how someone with a Bad day can be traumatized to the point of reaching insanity and chaos, the ferry scene was made to contradict him with that, Dent was made to show that everyone has a breaking point.

The connection with Batman and Joker was excellent, you see specifically how the relation grew up, it was Joker who was first obsessed with Batman, until Joker became such menace that Batman only worked to get on the Joker (so Batman sort of got obssesed wiht the Joker also), as Orga said, this is a rookie Batman, and Joker it the first real “lunatic” he faces. it is important for those comic book fans to understand this, as at first, Batman considers him to be a low tier tug not important to the bigger picture, but after a couple of things, he begins to get interested, to the point we go to the interrogation room, here people is where the connection between both of them really begun, and it was made in the precise moment, you need (for the general audience) a connector, a means to explain the people what makes the connection between joker and Batman so intense. And the things that are occurring while Joker it’s been interrogated, it is this kind of things that makes Bat-man to the borders of “Burning Down the forest”.

In the first movie, you never felt this sense of desperation in Bat-Man, this sense of hopelessness…You now how powerful it was when
Spoiler:

Now for me the biggest surprise was Harvey Dent role in the movie, It was a pleasant surprise. I really don’t give rank to the movies, so Ill say it is an excellent movie, and like I said to my friends, Iron-man is the best comic movie I have seen, Dark Knight does not fall to this category of Comic book movie….So, I just say they are different.
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Old 2008-08-15, 10:01   Link #251
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I had problems with Batman's husky/coarse voice, and then I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2yv8aT0UFc
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Old 2008-08-15, 10:31   Link #252
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I may be missing the point slightly, as I haven't read all 13 pages of this thread, but I think a lot of this is discussed extensively in only a few lines of the movie:

Spoiler for movie quotes:


I feel like this conversation contains far more information than just the words contained within. In Batman Begins, Batman never really has to deal with anyone who could be defined as psychotic. He can understand where Raz Al Ghul is coming from, because he was at that point earlier in his life. He also wanted to rid the world of Gotham's evil and, even if their methods weren't the same, he could appreciate the outcome they were trying to achieve.

Joker is a different scenario entirely. Batman, I think, can't fully comprehend the idea of a person creating mayhem for the sake of mayhem. Joker has no real objective when it comes to his crime; he's just testing people's ability to cope with foreign situations. In a sense, a lot of what he does is a test of people's ability to be reasonable (to a point, anyway). Such is the reason-again, I believe-for Alfred's later comments regarding the bandit in Burma.

Spoiler for movie quotes:


Alfred is trying to point out that, in times of great desperation, people will turn to extreme measures to achieve their desired outcome. For a man like Joker, that might not necessarily be the case, because he may only use the most extreme measures, but that would be the precise reason that he would be a man Batman couldn't fully understand. Batman is notorious for not going to extremes to achieve his ambitions. That extravagance is reserved solely for Bruce Wayne, who uses all his money and clout to do whatever he wants-a form of evil in its own right.

I'd argue that the Joker knew who Batman was anyway, and just wanted him to reveal himself to everyone else. Regardless of whether that is true or not, I think it's important to read between the lines, especially in certain conversations like this. While Nolan might not always use visuals to connect his characters and situations directly throughout the film, I feel like he substitutes those visual connections in favor of narrative connections like these, to try and give a greater mental understanding to the audience about the character's connection. Visuals can only offer one connection style; by using narrative, he offers up a variety of connection between the characters, and doesn't tire people out by forcing them to look again and again at scenes in an attempt to grab the underlying meaning.
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Old 2008-08-15, 18:50   Link #253
GreatTeacherKen
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I thought this was pretty funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn82OJKrzzs

Who would've thought Batman and Monty Python can mix so well?
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Old 2008-08-15, 20:30   Link #254
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Off-topic: Did anyone from Batman's rogue gallery ever find out that Batman = Bruce Wayne?
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Old 2008-08-15, 21:54   Link #255
james0246
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Off-topic: Did anyone from Batman's rogue gallery ever find out that Batman = Bruce Wayne?
Well, with all the alternate universes and the like, everyone has found out that Bruce Wayne is Batman at least once . Not to mention that all of the JLA generally know who he is, and Gordon probably knows as well.

That being said, Bane, Ra's Al Ghul, and The Riddler all deduce the connection. Hugo Strange (Batman's first recurring villain), The Synaptic Kid (bit villain with telepathec powers), Catwoman (lover), Azrael (he replaced Batman for a time), Hush (current main foe of Batman), David Cain (League of Assassins), and Poison Ivy (though she is convinced that they are seperate later), also all know. There is some evidence that Joker probably knows, but refuses to act on the information.
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Old 2008-08-16, 01:24   Link #256
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And if you counted the times where Batman and Superman were enemies, they are now on first name basis as friends, casually referring to each other as "Bruce" and "Clarke" in costume.
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Old 2008-08-16, 15:42   Link #257
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Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila View Post
And if you counted the times where Batman and Superman were enemies, they are now on first name basis as friends, casually referring to each other as "Bruce" and "Clarke" in costume.

It is a nice thing, it shows the mutual respect and the close friendship both of them have.
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Old 2008-08-16, 16:15   Link #258
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Instead of Joker explaining that they are fighting for the soul of Gotham, the visuals should tell the whole story, but, besides Joker's early scenes, very little is shown from Batman initially that represents this connection.
I think the scene where the people in Dent's press conference want Batman to turn himself in to appease the Joker more than showed visually that they are battling for the soul of the city, and Batman was losing, flash forward to prisoner boat scene to see the final results.
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Old 2008-08-16, 16:37   Link #259
james0246
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I think the scene where the people in Dent's press conference want Batman to turn himself in to appease the Joker more than showed visually that they are battling for the soul of the city, and Batman was losing, flash forward to prisoner boat scene to see the final results.
Well, besides the fact that I was talking about a purely visual definition, I agree that this scene clearly shows the beginning of the symbolic struggle for the soul of Gotham. But, this scene occurs nearly an hour into the film. I was arguing that this scene or at least a scene with the same basic content (an understanding that the cities rests on the battle between Joker and Batman) should have been more subtly set-up earlier in the film.

---

It looks like Tropic Thunder (an extremely good action-comedy/satire) is going to take top billing this week. Way to go Batman for keeping the number 1 spot for 4 weeks and amassing 450 million in America during that time.
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Old 2008-08-16, 17:04   Link #260
Sokar
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Well, besides the fact that I was talking about a purely visual definition, I agree that this scene clearly shows the beginning of the symbolic struggle for the soul of Gotham. But, this scene occurs nearly an hour into the film. I was arguing that this scene or at least a scene with the same basic content (an understanding that the cities rests on the battle between Joker and Batman) should have been more subtly set-up earlier in the film.
I don't think using pure visuals is a good idea. I'd much more prefer events that fit into the story like the one I mentioned, rather than shots. For those kind of visual depictions comic books are better. Also not everything can be presented in a good way visually, it can seem too much like posing, which just doesn't fit into the realistic path the movie takes. I do agree that their meeting could have occured earlier, but the mob was taking up Batman's time. Also it is rather nice to see how the Joker gets his gang together before taking on Batman.

I also don't like the exposition that Alfred goes on about the nature of the Joker, but it seems necessary for the uneducated audience who have not read the comics. Pretty much every superhero and supervillian have a definitive origin that explains their motivations for what they do. The Joker doesn't have any motivation, he just exisits for no reason other than to cause chaos. Since the Joker have no motivation, you aren't left with much to properly portray him to the audience besides exposition. No matter how crazy the Joker acts, the audience will always ask why he is that way, until you tell them that he just is that way.

As for the Joker seemingly overtaking Batman, that's to be expected. It happens pretty much all the time with Batman. Batman has the most interesting Rogue Gallery in comics, and the villians are often said to be more interesting than Batman himself. A lot of Batman comics focus on the villian rather than the hero, as Batman is rather uptight and frankly boring in personality. I think this film showed why Batman needs a Robin, because Batman by himself is just too dark and gloomy. Some people like them darker and edgier though. Nolan apparently hates Batsidekicks.
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