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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 28 27.72%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 29 28.71%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 25.74%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 8.91%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.97%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.98%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.99%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.97%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-12-31, 01:59   Link #201
Eidolon Sniper
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Spoiler for space >.>;;:
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Last edited by Eidolon Sniper; 2007-12-31 at 12:29. Reason: Spoiler tagged for space. >.>;;
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Old 2007-12-31, 04:45   Link #202
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Marina isn't weak, she is just inexperienced. If she was weak, she wouldn't even consider becoming Azadistan queen, when she knows her people are in drastic need for change...
She could have been - and probably was - pressured into the role. It doesn't say much one way or the other.

Quote:
she is just naive for believing that there aren't people who do not think like her.
If that was true, she'd leave the realms of "naive" and "inexperienced" so fast there'd be a visible redshift. I don't think she's that far gone from reality.

I do think she isn't entirely aware of how far some people will go to express their discontent. Or of how fickle most people are. Of how little it takes to turn a cheering crowd into a rioting mob.

Quote:
Knowing full well that Azadistan needs help quickly is what she's been doing for the first eps, she goes from country to country seeking help. She knows Azadistan needs help quickly that is why she is going on that expedition. That is her way of helping Azadistan. Unfortunately, people who deem those actions as going against what they believe do not take too kindly to what Marina was doing. She acknowledges her role as a figurehead, and she believes she is doing something to help her people (which is really true). She is considerate of what people feel, but she doesn't understand just yet why they seem to refuse her, or go against what she is doing for all of them (hence her naivety).
She knows. She just thinks she's right and they're wrong.

Quote:
It's not as if she allow the UN to come there (I think it was the UN's decision, but I might be mistaken) to destroy their way of life; she believes that change could bring them stability, especially since oil is now considered nothing in that timeline. Remember that the parliament of Azadistan have their own Conservatives; the Conservatives could manipulate what they really know of the situation and so use it to garner favor from the populace.
So do all the others. Welcome to the world of politics.

Quote:
This has become even more so when Rasa was kidnapped. I believe there is a majority of Conservatives in Azadistan, which is why they (the people) were so easily to be manipulated, or Rasa is very influential that his kidnapping allowed for that same civil war reaction. Marina already has trouble begging for energy help because of her naivety and inexperience, and this has become even more complicated when Rasa was abducted. Rasa is one of the Conservatives who knew change would bring about a lot of benefits for Azadistan, but he himself didn't like change; Rasa is very important to become the Conservatives' leash. He could influence the people to not become rash; he was reminding his "followers" that before he was kidnapped. If he was in any way harmed or killed, the restored monarchy would be toppled again, and Azadistan would be thrown into chaos.

So saying Marina is weak in this debate is still debatable; she has exhibited signs that she knew that her country needed change, and is doing everything that she could to bring about that change and lessen her people's doubts in the government. Also, she questions her advisers why the people don't like what she is doing; that is a sign that she is eager to know their reasons why they don't like her.
Or that she's a mouthbreating idiot who can't see the obvious. Or that she knows very, very little about her own people. Where was she raised anyway?

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If she didn't ask why people were going against her and still continues on with the plan, or not acknowledge their reasons, then we could say that she's selfish. I am pretty sure that she will learn as she goes along if her attitude keeps up this way. That is not a sign of weakness.
She's shown sign of lacking a spine, and of not quite being at home with the idea that blood is going to be shed because of her decisions. (Note that I'm quite willing to acknowledge that on that point, she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Whatever she decides, blood is going to be spilled. But she doesn't look like she can quite look at it in the face.)
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Old 2007-12-31, 08:32   Link #203
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Originally Posted by Kasiro View Post
I liked the fact that someone can actually stand up to a gundam now, before this 00 was about elephants[pun intended] vs ants.
I know what you mean Kasiro... Something that CE timeline is very lacking to non-existant. Glad in gundum00 that there are competant grunts as well named characters that can hold on their own quite well.

This is probably one of the many reasons y there are lot of anti CE-fans enjoying double 00 much more, due to the sense of balance and not just plain cannon fodder trash that CE is infamous for amongst the gundam fans. (mind you, i am aware there are some episodes in 00 that grunts are cannon fodder but there have been a few where grunts are shown some competence)

I always prefered the idea that there are ants that are quite capable.. but thats my personal taste.
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Old 2007-12-31, 09:06   Link #204
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Spoiler for wall of texts:
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Last edited by Eidolon Sniper; 2007-12-31 at 12:25. Reason: Spoiler tagged for space. >.>;;
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Old 2007-12-31, 09:39   Link #205
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Paragraphs, man! Paragraphs! As in, more of them!
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Old 2007-12-31, 12:25   Link #206
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Sorry about that. Wait, I'll spoiler tag it...>.<;;

Edit: There, fixed it...
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Old 2007-12-31, 12:45   Link #207
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Spoiler for wall of texts:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Sorry about that. Wait, I'll spoiler tag it...>.<;;

Edit: There, fixed it...
That doesn't adress the issue of making your text more readable at all.
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Old 2007-12-31, 13:03   Link #208
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Jeebus, Eidolon. Paragraphs. O.O
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Old 2007-12-31, 19:24   Link #209
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Eidolon i can't even get into what you're posting, it's so much jumbled in there. Anh Minh Hit my point right on the head, except not in as much words. She isn't connected to her people, and barely connectedto those who support her.
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Old 2007-12-31, 19:40   Link #210
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Let's get some facts straight here. At least this is how I see it.

What has Marina done so far? Request aid from the UN which was what she has done.

She's nothing more than a figurehead with no real actual power. If anything, she's what Relena would've been in the Romefellar had Relena not take the initiative and rein them in towards her.

Which is probably why they chose her. As many have pointed out, she's not liked but nor is she hated. Regardless, she's the "poster girl" for the Reformists in parliament who HOLD the REAL power in the country. For the conservatives, Rasa is their "poster man" or their figurehead though a much more respected figure.

The Reformists need someone to represent themselves in public, someone who is neutral in most matters but not strong enough to actually take control/power. In this case Marina fits into that role. She represents the change and is their face but she doesn't have the capability to actually take control over the government.

Up to episode 12, how many of the actions taken by the government were actually done by her?
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Old 2007-12-31, 19:49   Link #211
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Originally Posted by kafka View Post
Because god knows the only characters allowed in the show are marysues the brave and kick-ass ones, huh? Marina's, obviously, an escapist and in a constant mode of self-indulgent pity (which I think she will eventually get over for development's sake - whether or not they're executing it well is a different beast entirely); annoyance for her is somewhat understandable, but, Professor Moriarty, chill, much?
I agree with that.


As far as the Lockon vs Graham situation, Lockon was surprised by the pilot's ability but thats it. No one had the upper hand and it gave no indication that Graham's ability is higher than Lockon's, regardless of Lockon having a Gundam, it just showed that Lockon under estimated him to the point where he was gonna have to fight/or gun play, not none of that sniping business. However it shows that Graham is very good, but like i said, it doesnt indicate that Graham is the superior pilot.
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Old 2007-12-31, 20:11   Link #212
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@ Chase

Oh i never stated that lockon is lower than Graham, but WD and myself are defending Graham skills while a few posters said that lockon is laid back and pretty much have been suggested could waste Graham if he was trying.

But myself and WD have pointed out that Lockon is *trying* and gave 100% to take out Graham after he missed his first shot. So if anything we are just pointing out that Graham skills should not be underestimated. Graham is clearly the underdog in this fight. So this should be a wakeup call to Lockon to fight Seruiosly and dont be caught off guard regardless in battle. In this battle lockon should be happy the power of his gundam is the only thing that kept him alive. If lockon was in a regular MS he would of died from being in his laid back attitude being half @$$ED.
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Old 2007-12-31, 20:33   Link #213
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The official Gundam 00 site has some interesting background info on Shirin Bakhtiar, which gives some additional extra insight into Marina's situation. Putting in spoiler since not come out in series yet:
Spoiler for translation from Wikipedia:


Anyway, I think the complaints aimed at Marina are more because it seems like she wouldn't do much even if she did have some real power.

It's going to be interesting to see how Marina and Setsuna affect each other in future...


PS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ini_technology
Rather interesting...
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Old 2008-01-01, 00:39   Link #214
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
@ Chase

Oh i never stated that lockon is lower than Graham, but WD and myself are defending Graham skills while a few posters said that lockon is laid back and pretty much have been suggested could waste Graham if he was trying.

But myself and WD have pointed out that Lockon is *trying* and gave 100% to take out Graham after he missed his first shot. So if anything we are just pointing out that Graham skills should not be underestimated. Graham is clearly the underdog in this fight. So this should be a wakeup call to Lockon to fight Seruiosly and dont be caught off guard regardless in battle. In this battle lockon should be happy the power of his gundam is the only thing that kept him alive. If lockon was in a regular MS he would of died from being in his laid back attitude being half @$$ED.
Let's face it; one of them is bound to get caught sooner or later. It's Gundam.

They are depicting Gundams to be superior than any other "mobile suits". Obviously to get caught against a superior "mobile suit", they would have to be lacking in skills.
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Old 2008-01-01, 07:45   Link #215
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Spoiler for those who DO NOT mind wall of texts. >.>;;:


Quote:
That doesn't adress the issue of making your text more readable at all.
This has always been the bane of my existence during my college years, it's a wonder how my professors dealt with it at all. >.>;; anyway sorry about that. All the major points that I wanted to come across are already written in bold in case for the walls of text, and are there in case the people who hate walls of texts have headaches already.

@ Crusader

Marina isn't connected to her advisers because she was just picked for the job and hardly have any interaction at all before she was picked for that job presumably to even make a clear connection with each other. The same thing could probably only apply to her as well with regards to her people if she didn't think their opinions mattered; but clearly, asking her advisers why they do not like what she's doing makes a lot of sense as to why I think she is still connected to her people to some extent.
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Old 2008-01-01, 08:31   Link #216
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post

There's still nothing to say that she was pressured to be put in that role; episode 12 only showed her telling Rasa that she accepted the Queen role. Now, it doesn't say anything that by accepting that role she is weak. I see it as a role that she is prepared to tackle, if at best she is still inexperienced, but at least she is trying very hard. I am saying that her acceptance of the Queen role as not a sign of weakness, because even if the person is cut out to be made for that role and given the situation Azadistan is in, they wouldn't accept that role easily, even if they just assigned them that role.
I'm pretty sure that they didn't come to her saying "Hey, could you be our queen for a bit? If you can't, no biggy!". It was probably more along the lines of "Your country needs you! If you refuse, everyone will suffer, puppies will die, and you'll suffer from premature baldness."

Quote:
Marina accepting her role as a Queen even if she was just chosen to fill that role (and acknowledging she is a figurehead), clearly not a sign of spinelessness or weakness.
Refusing would have been a sign of strength. Caving in is a sign of weakness. Note, refusing could be a sign of stupidity, too, so I'm not saying she was necessarily wrong to accept. I just don't see it as such a virtuous thing.

I mean, if powerful men came to me and said I must be king, well, you can call me "Your majesty". Even though I'd look for ways to weasel out of it afterwards.

Quote:
I am pretty sure worthier candidates than her would at why they have to act as a puppet, a WILLING puppet, to a government that is nowadays chaotic, and wouldn't accept it no matter how well meaning the intent is.
So? I'm sure it'd have been easier to work with a man, just in terms of image, even if that man is personality-wise a bit difficult. That they have picked a woman only tells me that they were pretty desperate.

Quote:
If you were chosen to be Azadistan's King or Queen, what could you have done better than what Marina could possibly do, knowing full well that you are a puppet? I myself would think that I couldn't have done anything better, or maybe act like what Marina did. There aren't many options available to Marina on the outset; she was just thrust into that role as a figurehead, and people disapprove of anything she does, and it's not as if she could easily set up a peace conference now that the Reformists and Conservatives are in turmoil, or that her people are already discontent and need action NOW.
Oh, I'd have done worse. I'm not a people person and would make a terrible beggar. But I wouldn't go all googly eyed every time I hear something underhanded, manipulative, and/or violent happens. What is she, eight?


Quote:
Going by what I already stated, Azadistan clearly isn't a kingdom that could be easily ruled, even for a person who is very well made for that job. I also said that it would be easier to pick someone inexperienced and naive to do the politicians' work for a strong willed candidate who could balk them at every single turn. Marina acknowledged that she is a figurehead and has no real power. But at least she is trying to do something, even how pathetic it seems at first. >.>;; cut her some slack people, she's in a position wherein everything she does could thrust her into more critical situations than she already is at.
The problem isn't with what she does, or doesn't do. She has no political power, and it's not her fault. I understand that.

The problem is how... little girlish she is. What's cute in an first grader is just irritating in a stateswoman in her mid-twenties. She needs a healthy dose of cynicism.

Quote:
And besides, I am hoping that she will grow as a character. Not all royalty could become very much into the affairs of the people; they also prepared for it and had some experience with it (their families grooming them to lead the people), and given Marina's seeming cluelessness with the way real world politics works, the Azadistan royal family might have groomed her in a way that shields Marina from the harsh realities of ruling a population of people who may or may not welcome her as their leader, or have been shielded from knowing what Azadistan is like now since they were forced into a corner. Also, her "ascension" as Queen is very sudden. Why would the parliament suddenly call upon the Azadistan royal family's help for this critical time?
At this point, it looks to me like they picked her up in an orphanage or something. She doesn't look like she was prepared at all.


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At least she understood enough that she needs to do something for her people so that they don't die from starvation. >.>;;
So she can understand the basic economical situation of her country. Well done. But she still doesn't understand how her people think.

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But the fact remains that they are going against what she deems important, and label everything she does as something that is what the Reformists want. Even if she really meant what she was doing, they would still see it as something done by the Reformists so that they could take control over the entire kingdom. It would be easy if all people share the same feelings and thoughts exactly, but that's not the way real life works. Here we see Marina trapped in that kind of situation, and she is seen helpless to do anything about it, because of her predicament. You can't please everybody you know...
What's your point there? Do you believe she has her own agenda, separate from the Reformists's?

Quote:
It's not because you're a Queen or King or wield a royal title that makes it all magically easier, it's also a LOT of hard work. Your own people might desert you, backstab you, use you, and the people may not agree with everything you want to happen, and they could also easily do off with you if they wanted. I am hoping that Marina is in this case a "real life" portrayal of how royals thrust into a precarious situation like Azadistan could react, and how they manage those kinds of problems,and say that being a Princess does not magically entitle a person into making everything work just as planned.
Don't tell me, tell her.

Quote:
People at some point in their lives make stupid decisions, and it's by that way that they learn. Now, if they still don't get it, they are either stubborn to admit that they're wrong, they can't accept the reality that nothing good could come out of their decisions that is why they keep repeating it, or lots of other reasons. Marina isn't in any way stupid; people would of course want to know why people hate them, or why people can't seem to accept anything that they did that was wrong, and try to address them if they can. It's human nature. >.>;; Now, if Marina continues pretending that there is nothing wrong at all in what she's doing that her people seem to disagree with her, that's another new thing entirely, and yes, she may be stupid for thinking that there aren't any people who would disagree with what she does...
It's friggin obvious to anyone who knows Azadistan just a little bit that there are people who'll oppose her.

Quote:
So that is what you think, OK fine, I have no problem with that. But what I think is that she is not yet that disconnected from her people as to even ask why they seem to hate her; it is shown that their opinions matter, that is why she asks them. An even more horrible leader would not even ask why; they would just probably go on as if nothing out of the ordinary is happening.
While callous, it may not be such a bad move. She's horrible, not because she cares, but because she asks questions whose answers should be obvious to anyone who has even an inkling of what the Azadistani people are like. When you go see a doctor, it is not a good sign if he asks "Can someone remind me what that heart singy if for, already?"

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She wants to please everybody. >.>;; Marina's not at fault for trying to please everybody; she needs to bring Azadistan back to its feet, and because of her predicament, there is no choice but to actually ask them for permission, and because she is still inexperienced and needed to be whacked into shape by Shirin and her advisers. A pox to whoever brought her up; but maybe, if it was in a situation wherein the royal family was prevented from learning anything about the current state of Azadistan, they might still be excused for it.
Demagoguery isn't actually a good leadership trait. She'd be better off picking a strategy and sticking to it, instead of constantly doubting herself. In public.

Quote:
Also, ==>this is just 12 episodes into Gundam 00, it's still too early to judge Marina for her "spinelessness"<==, as there are still a lot of room for improvement, and I hope she does improve. >.>;;
Yeah, sure, she may grow. But right now? She doesn't cut the mustard.


Quote:
Her upbringing could actually be a major factor into WHY Marina is acting this way. It's not because she just read books, or studied in order to become a good leader or anything; the environment she grew up in, what her parents taught her, yes, they all matter into molding a person into what they would be in the future. I was just trying to connect it to some extent as to why she is "spineless".



What makes you so sure about that? As for being taught peaceful means to end a war, what are all the diplomatic missions for? >.>;; But given the Middle East situation in Gundam 00, it would be pretty hard to do that, as there is continuous war going on. So probably they just relied on theory for that?
Diplomacy is just a lot of people trying to get ahead.

Anyway, my point was, you can't teach "peaceful ways to end wars" the way you can teach science, or even literature. There's no set, tried and true way to end a war.

Besides, I haven't been impressed by her education so far.


Quote:
This has always been the bane of my existence during my college years, it's a wonder how my professors dealt with it at all. >.>;; anyway sorry about that. All the major points that I wanted to come across are already written in bold in case for the walls of text, and are there in case the people who hate walls of texts have headaches already.
As far as I'm concerned, bold makes it less readable, not more. Use italics instead. And don't emphasize whole sentences.
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Old 2008-01-01, 10:44   Link #217
Eidolon Sniper
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Spoiler for people who LIKE wall of texts:


@ SoldierOfDarkness

She has actually tried getting help from France, and some other countries, but she was unsuccessful at that. The UN aid was something unexpected, I think, or maybe I have to rewatch that episode again. in any case, Marina DID try something, but failed spectacularly. It wasn't on her own volition, more likely she was just told to beg for alms, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't take her work seriously, or that she didn't want to help.

The show still hasn't shown anything that would probably point to Marina being neutral, she was very much concerned in making sure she does get help from her people, and is not at all averse to the idea that change is something they could use to great effect, going after what the Reformists are after. So she's actually Reformist without actually saying she is one in some way. The bad thing about this is, if Marina did try to do something without the permission from the Reformists, the people would still see her like that. The people are going against Marina because of her affiliation with the Reformists, that is why there is a lot of discontent in Azadistan. Her acceptance of UN aid just made it all worse....>.>;;

Back on topic:

It's just sad Patrick's not doing any screentime anymore...
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Old 2008-01-01, 11:06   Link #218
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Do i detect something rather against women by this statement? Leaders are not judged by gender, and suddenly opting for a female leader does not mean that the country or kingdom is "desperate". They probably chose Marina for her inexperience and naivety. There are strong women leaders, and there are ineffectual, weak women leaders, as much as there are also men who are like that either way.
Not me. The Azadistani are sexists. Which is why Marina's advisor is frustrated with her position.

And one of my points was, it doesn't even really matter what kind of person they chose for the throne, since there's no real power that goes with that job. In terms of image, though, a king would have served them better on the domestic side.

Quote:
Cripes, for all those things happening at the same time and because of her ineffectiveness as a Queen by the start of the series...I could understand that everything would be still shocking for her, and she is still trying to digest that fact as she goes on ruling Azadistan. I wouldn't hold it against her. I could probably do a lot worse than Marina. Marina is still trying to make sense of the entire situation at this point in time, and with her "supporter" Rasa gone, it only made her work even more complicated. She finally had the UN help Azadistan in a way that would help their economy stabilized, but Ali pulls a coup d' etat and pulls the figurative carpet right out from under her feet, and is using the feelings of the people effectively against what she deems as best for her country.
Ali, shmali. Her country was already full of violent religious nuts. She should have expected terrorist actions at least, if not precisely what happened.


Quote:
She probably equated their needs to having their basic needs put before anything else, as this is what they REALLY need at the moment. With oil useless in that timeline, now isn't really the time of actually trying to listen to what the people want for the time being for she needs Azadistan to recover from the oil shock. There really isn't any time for a peace conference because Azadistan is clearly on its way to economic meltdown and needs action fast.
The fact that her country was full of murderous religious fanatics and of their sympathizers is important and should have been taken into account.

Quote:
With Rasa gone, it has made everything very difficult; Rasa is a Conservative who believes in change, eventhough he doesn't like it. Rasa could explain to them why they need change, and so they won't look at Marina as a destroyer of their traditions or whatnot.
No, that's the Reformists' job. Rasa's was to say "Yes, they're heathen bastards and all, but violence isn't the solution."

Quote:
No, I just believe that Marina is simply trying to do the best she can for her people, but because her actions are similar to what the Reformists want, people would instantly brand her as a Reformist puppet, or the new face of the Reformists. She could be doing everything at her own volition, yet people would still think of her as doing something that what the Reformists want to happen, or depending on what action she would take that would closely resemble to the objectives of the 2 groups. And now Rasa's gone, who would explain to the Conservatives that she's merely trying to help them?
It's not like Rasa's the only one with a brain among the conservatives. Not that the mob is in a listening mood right now anyway...
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Old 2008-01-01, 11:43   Link #219
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Yes, but, since we are going against an image that would probably connote "weakness" on the part of the person accepting that job, a male accepting Marina's position would be much worse and even more chaos would ensue. And if the Reformists wanted someone who would fit their job specs perfectly, they needed someone who would not be difficult to control. Some people would probably connote that kind of acceptance as "weak", so they probably wouldn't touch that matter with a ten foot pole.

She knew that there would be people who would hate her and would have deaths because of her actions, but being her first time out, it's very difficult for her to accept it just yet.

With the fact that Azadistan is already caving in from the economic meltdown pushed by the oil uselessness, it's really hard to take account of the situation of the people who think what Marina is doing is against their beliefs just yet. It's easy to say things like that, but their current situation isn't helping at all. I am pretty sure that Marina would wish to have a dialogue, and I think Marina at one point suggested that to her advisers, but they told her flat out that it was impossible at this point, because Azadistan needed action right now, and some of the people's opinions must have to be sacrificed for a while, or else there would be no Azadistan to speak of.

Would a Conservative listen to a Reformist? O.o;; Probably, if they were like minded like Rasa, or have a broader view of Azadistan politics. It's like saying that Kira is better in a thread filled with Shinn lovers, and you know what that always ends up in. seriously though, Rasa told Marina himself that the Conservatives NEEDED someone who could identify with their plight. So, if you get a Reformist try to speak to a mob of angry Azadistanis, they wouldn't listen even if they try to tell them change is needed in a method Rasa would approve. Rasa is very critical at this point in time to make them listen.
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Old 2008-01-01, 11:52   Link #220
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
What the Conservatives needed was a leader who isn't a bloodthirsty maniac. That's what Rasa provided.

What they didn't need, and Rasa didn't provide, was a leader telling them the other side is right.

And, most likely, most people are neither fanatic Reformists nor Conservatives, but kinda in the middle. Those are the people that need convincing.
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