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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 28 27.72%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 29 28.71%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 25.74%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 8.91%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.97%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.98%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.99%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.97%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-12-28, 01:24   Link #141
Jays
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@ Wing Darkness

Dude I think you are buying way into this hype. Graham was going full throtle at Lockon, while Lockon was being himself. It's reasonable for him to think "Oh it's just another little Flag, whatever, I'll shoot it down". He was surprised, simple as that. No Graham didn't win anything, in any case it was Lockon who actually damaged that shieldesq part of Graham's Custom Flag. While Graham, only managed to kick him, which I was thought was kinda lame.

The element of surprise that Graham had wasn't the same as something that a skilled tactitian has planned out. This fight proved nothing, it all it did was show the abilities that Graham's custom flag has.

By the way, I don't dislike Graham, I'm just saying that neither him or Lockon bested each other in this battle.
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Old 2007-12-28, 01:45   Link #142
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
All that matters is the final outcome and to the victor goes the spoils...Lets say in the randomness of the moment Graham's beam saber hit a vital area of Dynames and somehow (Perhaps even indirectly) Lockon is severly injured or dies because of this...Are we still saying "Oh he wasn't really bested..." even if he's now dead or something?? Underestimating an opponent has never been carte blanche for giving excuses during battle...You win, you win, you get kicked in the head, you got kicked in the head...
By that logic, it was a draw, since neither suit was seriously damaged.
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Old 2007-12-28, 01:46   Link #143
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No Graham didn't win anything, in any case it was Lockon who actually damaged that shieldesq part of Graham's Custom Flag. While Graham, only managed to kick him, which I was thought was kinda lame.
I was under the impression that the shield was "designed" to protect the Flag which it did.

The Flag has anti-beam coating on it but since beam technology is something new to the 3 powers, their capabilites in dealing with it is limited so its obvious that the shield would be damaged. Lockon however was surprised that the Flag had some anti-beam protection.

That and I should probably point out that the shield wasn't spun rapidly. Graham spun it back and forth to catch each shot which he did. And at point blank.
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Old 2007-12-28, 01:48   Link #144
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@Jays
^Dude I'm buying into what I see....Just cause you think something is kinda lame means nothing to me...You're the same guy who thinks Grimmjow's cheezy laff has this deep connotation beyond shonen villainy...Not that that's relevant here, but having seen every Gundam series I know a trooper when i see one...Don't tell me that feeling of excitement and thrill I had when Graham outmaneuvered then head-kicked Dynames was some BS hype...Trust me I understand my own feelings...I never said anything about some skilled tactician's element for supreme victory..I simply said he bested Dynames in that small skirmish (Which proved alot to me and many others based on this thread alone)...Lockon being his bull$hiting self is far lamer for being your excuse...

By your logic if Tom Brady throws an interception against an inferior football team it's because the rookie defensive linemen surprised him, therefore it doesn't count (WTF? )...No the interception still occurred and to the victor goes the spoil that it brings...

I'm not one of these people that feel like since Kira was text-messaging his vote on American Idol that this somehow exhonerates his defeat to Impulse...Like my own football coach used to tell us all time (which is a common cliche I've heard in huddles all my life)... "Excuses are for losers..."..And in Lockon's case, just cause he's a laid-back kinda guy you want me to give him a mulligan, puh-leeeze...He got bested by his own admissions...

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
By that logic, it was a draw, since neither suit was seriously damaged.
When I said "final outcome" I was morso responding to the claim that Lockon's lack of caution was the reason for him being bested in the skirmish...Logically speaking, from the standpoint of both their suits not being seriously damaged, then yeah you're right...But I was talking about Graham's piloting skills in-terms of the quick engagement...
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Old 2007-12-28, 02:06   Link #145
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
@Jays
^Dude I'm buying into what I see....Just cause you think something is kinda lame means nothing to me...You're the same guy who thinks Grimmjow's cheezy laff has this deep connotation beyond shonen villainy...Not that that's relevant here, but having seen every Gundam series I know a trooper when i see one
There you go again with that I'm soo high and mighty because I watch this or because I've seen that. Who cares man? Like not getting personal or anything, but that doesn't make you any more right than anyone else. As a matter of fact, not only is it myself, but others seem to disagree with your astout and profound resoning. As for the Grimmjow thing, I made my points, and I still stand behind them.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
...Don't tell me that feeling of excitement and thrill I had when Graham outmaneuvered then head-kicked Dynames was some BS hype...Trust me I understand my own feelings...I never said anything about some skilled tactician's element for supreme victory..I simply said he bested Dynames in that small skirmish (Which proved alot to me and many others based on this thread alone)...Lockon being his bull$hiting self is far lamer for being your excuse...
Seriously, at this point I don't know what to make of your reasoning. It doesn't make any sense because he didn't even scratch the Dynames. He didn't even phase Lockon, sure he might have surprised him, but Lockon didn't get pissed, he just decided to play it serious after her realized he wasn't fighting against some normal guy. It' Flag, why is he going to think otherwise? Tell me, please I wish to know why he would autmatically think, oh maybe I should treat this one differently?


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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
By your logic if Tom Brady throws an interception against an inferior football team it's because the rookie defensive linemen surprised him, therefore it doesn't count (WTF? )...No the interception still occurred and to the victor goes the spoil that it brings...
What does Tom Brady say after? It happens, I didn't see it coming, next time I'll try and make sure it wont happen again. Does that mean he lost? No. That's a bad analogy anyways, comparing a moment to an entire battle isn't doing it justice.
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Old 2007-12-28, 04:04   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Jays View Post
Seriously, at this point I don't know what to make of your reasoning. It doesn't make any sense because he didn't even scratch the Dynames. He didn't even phase Lockon, sure he might have surprised him, but Lockon didn't get pissed, he just decided to play it serious after her realized he wasn't fighting against some normal guy. It' Flag, why is he going to think otherwise? Tell me, please I wish to know why he would autmatically think, oh maybe I should treat this one differently?
Uhhh... I think he certainly phased Lockon.

I personally think the fight was a draw--inconclusive. But doesn't Graham deserve credit for that? Especially with his inferior equipment? Yes, his Flag's been souped up, but I think the CB/Sergei battle only emphasizes CB's technical superiority.

Right now, it's unclear what the pecking order on pilots is in terms of raw skill, but I think Graham's earned a status as a real peer to all the Meisters. He can hold his own with inferior gear, and even better yet, he's not schizophrenic, wrecked by PTSD, or think he's half-computer. I actually like Lockon the most of all the Meisters, but, really, I find it hard to root for a sniper who has it so easy most of the time.

Oh, and as to why Lockon should be more cautious--BECAUSE GOOD SOLDIERS/WARRIORS/WHATEVER don't always assume their enemies are chumps. That is part of this conversation is about--who's the better pilot or whatever, not whose equipment is superior. Furthermore, CB just had a close call with HRL; yes, it's a different situation, but they should all realize now their enemies are mobilizing and finding countermeasures.
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Old 2007-12-28, 04:46   Link #147
SonicX_Zero
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
I personally think the fight was a draw--inconclusive. But doesn't Graham deserve credit for that?
I dont think anyone in this topic denied Graham of any credit whatsoever for what he has done in this ep, but I think the issue here is to what extent does Graham get credit for. D-Kla...err I mean WD claim it was Graham's victory despite the results while some find the whole battle a draw.
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Old 2007-12-28, 04:52   Link #148
Owaranai Destiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
All that matters is the final outcome and to the victor goes the spoils...Lets say in the randomness of the moment Graham's beam saber hit a vital area of Dynames and somehow (Perhaps even indirectly) Lockon is severly injured or dies because of this...Are we still saying "Oh he wasn't really bested..." even if he's now dead or something?? Underestimating an opponent has never been carte blanche for giving excuses during battle...You win, you win, you get kicked in the head, you got kicked in the head...
Yes, I'm going to say he wasn't bested. I'll even go as far as to say that luck is an important factor in life-and-death situations, if you consider coincidences as part of the equation.

If you wish to put it simply that he scored a somewhat minor victory over Lockon for not getting thrashed up like any Flag might due to his piloting abilities and apparent conplacency and laxness on Lockon's part, that can be easily accepted. For now, a draw seems to be the best word used to describe their little fight here.

Quote:
Uh, ummmmmm...

Isn't this what I've been saying from the start? O_o That Graham's piloting prowess is why he bested Dynames in that little skirmish...Am I missing something?
Oh yes you are. Didn't you notice? Lockon is a SNIPER and from what I've seen so far, he hardly misses especially if the conditions are right. You can simply use this as a fact to amplify the fact that Graham's abilities are above that of an average pilot.

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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
Right now, it's unclear what the pecking order on pilots is in terms of raw skill, but I think Graham's earned a status as a real peer to all the Meisters. He can hold his own with inferior gear, and even better yet, he's not schizophrenic, wrecked by PTSD, or think he's half-computer. I actually like Lockon the most of all the Meisters, but, really, I find it hard to root for a sniper who has it so easy most of the time.
Of course you do. No one loves boring battles where they can be decided quickly and easily with support fire doing much of the work-When you are a spectator in this. Graham most certainly showed more of what he was made of, at least.

And if you realised, Lockon's specialty lies in long-ranged combat, so it's no surprise he "has it so easy", though that isn't entirely true.


Quote:
Oh, and as to why Lockon should be more cautious--BECAUSE GOOD SOLDIERS/WARRIORS/WHATEVER don't always assume their enemies are chumps. That is part of this conversation is about--who's the better pilot or whatever, not whose equipment is superior. Furthermore, CB just had a close call with HRL; yes, it's a different situation, but they should all realize now their enemies are mobilizing and finding countermeasures.

That's the problem with laid-back personalities, I presume. They miss or mess up and almost immediately start drawing flak to themselves like metal fillings to a magnet. All it took was one sentence, and this is what you get, Lockon. I feel sorry for you.

I'm not saying caution shouldn't be advised, obviously after CB's close encounter with HRL, but according to your logic, I don't think humans would make good soldiers, or perhaps in Tieria's case, none of the Meisters (except perhaps for himself) would make good Meisters or soldiers in this case.

You do realise saying that his possible complacency and mistake of taking his usual targets as easy meat as an excuse is as good as making us a condemning bunch, hungry and ready to jump on someone with certain fields of superiority to his advantage for making one mistake. Maybe we ought to compare the mindset of a "Sniper" and the mindset of a "Soldier", if that were ever possible with as small a judgemental mindeset as possible.
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Old 2007-12-28, 07:31   Link #149
winter45
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OMG!!!!! This is starting to sound like Freedom vs impulse battle, like how shinn kicked the crap out of freedom and kira claimed he wasnt trying my @$$.

Well this fight showed that Graham had the upper hand most of the fight. From the surprise dodge to the kick across dynames face as well as making dynames use his sword and lastly make lockon use his last choice by diverting GN particles to his weapons (I presuming diverting power to his guns would result in more powerfull shot(s) to breakthru the flags defensive equipment/shield/armor to bring it down) It just showed how skilled Graham is in an infirior suit next to god like suit of a gundam.

And people pls dont use that bullcrap laid back attitude of lockon as an excuse of his bad performance. Starting to sound like kira claiming wasnt trying till it mattered attitude. Im sorry im a firm believer you give it 100% in all battle situations regardless any less your asking to quicken your life span shorter. (pls check my bio i know what im talking about)

With the HRL incident i beleived thats a wakeup call for these meisters if they continue to keep on fighting like the battle has already won attitude i hope they get their @$$es owned.

Dont get me wrong guys i love the cast far better than seed for me. But im getting a litte annoyed that they are only trying harder once their comfortable space is violated and then go all out. I hope we get to see more 1 on 1 battles that dont last any shorter than 20 seconds in the future.

This is just my 2 cents
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Old 2007-12-28, 08:11   Link #150
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kira wasnt "not trying" he just got caught in a script device, you cant do anything when the plot (or in GSD case the lack of plot) requires something to happen.
it s pretty much like paper and pencil RPG, if your gamemaster wants you somewhere, you can only do what he expect you to do...
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Old 2007-12-28, 12:22   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Jays View Post
There you go again with that I'm soo high and mighty because I watch this or because I've seen that. Who cares man? Like not getting personal or anything, but that doesn't make you any more right than anyone else. As a matter of fact, not only is it myself, but others seem to disagree with your astout and profound resoning. As for the Grimmjow thing, I made my points, and I still stand behind them.
Well dude it's hard for me to ignore the fact I've seen all of Gundam when I'm watching more Gundam...Scenes like Graham's last episode is something that appears very much in older series and in that sense it enhances scenes like this for me...It's certainly an intangible quality either you feel or you don't...Just like I don't believe in alot of your overblown points about Grimmjow because I don't read manga, it's the same way for me since you haven't seen older series where the mannerisms displayed by Graham are in abundance...He embodies the spirit of many older Gundam characters which does enhance things he does for me…


Quote:
Seriously, at this point I don't know what to make of your reasoning. It doesn't make any sense because he didn't even scratch the Dynames. He didn't even phase Lockon, sure he might have surprised him, but Lockon didn't get pissed, he just decided to play it serious after her realized he wasn't fighting against some normal guy. It' Flag, why is he going to think otherwise? Tell me, please I wish to know why he would autmatically think, oh maybe I should treat this one differently?
OK so I guess those sparks flying off Dynames’ head was inter-dimensional Lacus dust …When a metal foot kicks the $hit outta a metal head, it tends to get scratched…

Additionally it’s not about why or why wouldn’t Lockon think a Flag was trash, it’s that he did and because of that he got bested in a small skirmish (certainly by his standards which is implied by his actions)…Do you realize how pathetic the excuse that “He should get a pass because he usually thinks FLAGs are weak is??” That’s like saying because a hot girl turned you down you automatically assume every hot chick is gonna do the same since they usually do…That’s not a good excuse nor is it a good principle for life IMHO…We just have different philosophies it seems…



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Originally Posted by SonicX_Zero View Post
I dont think anyone in this topic denied Graham of any credit whatsoever for what he has done in this ep, but I think the issue here is to what extent does Graham get credit for. D-Kla...err I mean WD claim it was Graham's victory despite the results while some find the whole battle a draw.
LMAO usually I rev-up for pwnage on stuff like this , but you did make me chuckle with that…I go awol on one cool character and now I’m suddenly D-LAC? That’s weak man…C’mon Sonic_X you know that $hit is weak since you know I’m nothing like this if you ever read my posts…
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2007-12-28 at 15:39. Reason: syntax
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Old 2007-12-28, 12:24   Link #152
Demongod86
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^^ true @ above. But the fact was, Kira *wasn't* trying because he whooped Shinn's ass when it mattered again. (Just had to be his niceguy self and didn't beam his face =X) But that's off topic.

As for Graham vs. Lockon, I think if Graham stuck around, Lockon would have trashed him by virtue of superior hardware (how vastly superior I am not sure). Whether Graham is a better pilot than Lockon remains to be seen. Yes, in that skirmish, Graham's piloting skills had a far better showing than Lockon's since he was able to go toe to toe with the Dynames if only briefly.

That said, sure Graham got the 10-9 by the score cards that round, but I'm wondering how many more of those rounds he'd keep up before Lockon put him away by way of GG particle/Gundam cheese.

That said, if you give Graham a gundam or a suit relatively close to the gundams in terms of performance (EG Zechs in Tallgeese--although in ep 1 of GW, Zechs ALREADY sunk/damaged the Wing with a little Leo), he'll be able to seriously smash face but if you give any ace a gundam-like suit in G00, the Meisters are in serious trouble. The only reason Setsuna is able to hold his own against Ali or Graham is his gundam > their suits. That's already been stated both in show and out. Ditto Lockon. Tieria nearly got killed even WITH his gundam cheese (if not for his built in cross-dressing mini-gundam in a gundam, he would have been thxed).

So right now, I don't expect the Meisters to lose any battles due to their tech superiority, but come mid-series, if one of the three aces gets a good suit (Graham/Ali/Soma), look out.
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Old 2007-12-28, 12:51   Link #153
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Um, well, Lockon was a sniper, given his capabilities are more of the sniper variety, he would have a hard time fighting up close and personal? O___o;; and yes, he did remark to Haro to command the GN Drive to direct the GN particles maximum to the weapons systems itself, and decided to get serious when he realized he was going against a superior Flag fighter. I am pretty sure that Lockon knew what he was doing, and all the grunts he had encountered lately have been grunts, with the exception of Graham, and Ali, and Souma and Sergei (in terms of how they fought and were introduced against the Meisters). He was surprised, because he found out that Graham was actually someone whom he should respect for being a GREAT pilot, and it almost cost him his life...assuming that the Azadistan capital wasn't attacked and he still treats Graham as the normal Flag grunt. Lockon found out almost too late that Graham was a "special" pilot, and so he adjusted his tactics accordingly. Also, saying that Lockon is dependent on his Gundam (I think Graham mentioned this in this ep...) could be attributed to Lockon's seeming carelessness against enemies could be or could not be a measure of how Lockon really is good with the Dynames. Just like Exia, Lockon was on a mission that did not directly involve anyone who was going against his mission plan. He only attacked Graham when it went straight for him, conveniently because of some misunderstanding...I am quite puzzled at this point, the CB were called to maintain peace and order in the solar engine station, and were helping Azadistan against the Conservatives raising hell within the army (that was where Lockon was taking potshots at I presume), and Graham and his anti-Gundam buddies were there as part of the support/military group from the Union where Azadistan asked for help...so, uh, what happened back there when Graham challenged Lockon, did he think Lockon was there to screw things up or did he just wanted to see if he could capture himself a Gundam or he just mistook Lockon as part of a misunderstanding?

Anyway, I now has officially turned fangirl for Graham by this episode...XD the CHAR KICK had me damn...
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Old 2007-12-28, 12:54   Link #154
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Graham just has a gundam fetish. Gundam > mission.
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Old 2007-12-28, 12:57   Link #155
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LOL Gundam fetish.
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Old 2007-12-28, 14:53   Link #156
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No one knows for sure what will happen if the fight had continued except perhaps the writer(s). But we do know that in the short amount of time they had, Graham + an upgraded Flag was able to force Lockon + Haro + Dynames to do more than just shoot at the target. Now, assuming that Dynames was at full combat capacity (unlike that time in space against the Tierens), it is understandable why some people would give more credit to Graham.
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OMG!!!!! This is starting to sound like Freedom vs impulse battle, like how shinn kicked the crap out of freedom and kira claimed he wasnt trying
Not even close, in this case both were totally focused, in their own way, on the battle at hand , unlike what clearly happened in GSD.
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I think it's much better, that the Gundams only win because of technical reasons
We see a lot of that in SEED as well. But a lot of people would get bored with that type of fighting, especially when it is used to bring out more gundam models.
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Old 2007-12-28, 16:26   Link #157
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Graham just has a gundam fetish. Gundam > mission.
Didn't Graham's withdrawal indicate the opposite?
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Old 2007-12-28, 16:27   Link #158
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Don't you mean Graham's withdrawal? Graham was the one who had to leave to go defend the capital.
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Old 2007-12-28, 16:34   Link #159
Aquifina
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Don't you mean Graham's withdrawal? Graham was the one who had to leave to go defend the capital.
Yes, just edited the post--thanks for pointing out the gaffe.
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Old 2007-12-28, 17:02   Link #160
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Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny View Post
I'm not saying caution shouldn't be advised, obviously after CB's close encounter with HRL, but according to your logic, I don't think humans would make good soldiers, or perhaps in Tieria's case, none of the Meisters (except perhaps for himself) would make good Meisters or soldiers in this case.
Well, I should point out that military organizations tend to be downright obsessive about their routines and procedures, precisely to avoid complacency. I've heard that the preparations for a US convoy in a hot part of Iraq involve hours of briefings and thorough checks of equipment. Real screw ups still happen, even in the best units, but well-disciplined troops really do things like clean their weapons religiously, even when they're exhausted and worn out. And when things are going easy, they keep up their standards; why do you think peacetime garrison forces are sometimes so much more obsessed with issues of ceremony and dress? Because it helps maintain the necessary edge away from the frontline. That is, after all, the meaning of discipline. That's the product of effective leadership and military culture, which the meisters just don't seem to have.

Tiera, btw, would be an awful member of a military organization. He's as mentally unstable as the folks he criticizes, and insubordinate to boot (although I'm not sure if Sumeragi really is in a conventional chain of command above him), while being a first-rate martinet. Lockon, as harshly as I criticize his carelessness with Graham, would be the best actual officer--competent, steady, and concerned with the fate of his comrades.

Listen, it's a Gundam series. I know that it's portrayal of military organizations is going to be rather dubious, like most forms of entertainment. For the most part, I really don't care; seeing giant robots fight is really kind of cool, even if it requires suspension of disbelief. I just find it odd that the supporting characters seem to do a better job of looking like real military pilots than the Meisters. But that's maybe while the latter are seen as more interesting. It may also give the meisters more room to grow as characters, especially Setsuna.
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