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Old 2008-09-29, 12:10   Link #1221
Keroko
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Technically they did, they were the ones that shot down the last Neuroi after all, even though it was the Warlock. Notice how the Hive didn't disappear until after Warlock was shot down.
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Old 2008-09-29, 12:29   Link #1222
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Technically they did, they were the ones that shot down the last Neuroi after all, even though it was the Warlock. Notice how the Hive didn't disappear until after Warlock was shot down.
It would never have happened if the Warlock hadn't owned all the other Neuroi.
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Old 2008-09-29, 13:07   Link #1223
Keroko
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Hero medals work in strange ways.
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Old 2008-09-29, 13:12   Link #1224
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Hero medals work in strange ways.
I didn't think the General's conduct was bad in any particular way, besides disbanding the 501st for no reason.
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Old 2008-09-29, 16:01   Link #1225
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
It would never have happened if the Warlock hadn't owned all the other Neuroi.
if the warlock,i mean,the fact that human were using neuroi in their experiment was the reason that hive was there,it may just be the fact that the warlock was destroyed.

of course,the witches would never have to destroy the warlock if it hadn't gone berserk.

fifty/fifty IMHO.
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Old 2008-09-29, 17:16   Link #1226
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Originally Posted by kaosmos View Post
if the warlock,i mean,the fact that human were using neuroi in their experiment was the reason that hive was there,it may just be the fact that the warlock was destroyed.

of course,the witches would never have to destroy the warlock if it hadn't gone berserk.

fifty/fifty IMHO.
More like 90/10.

And there's no reason to suspect the military knows why the Neuroi are attacking.
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Old 2008-09-29, 18:41   Link #1227
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'll have an F-22 Striker, then. Shirley's Mustang was able to break Mach-1, going nearly twice as fast as the plane it originated from. Imagine how monstrous an F-22 Striker would be.
Supercruise. 2D thrust vectoring. Low RCS.

Although I would rather want a F-14D Super Tomcat, but with a SLEP upgrade. AESA radar (hey, it got one of the most powerful radars even installed in a fighter, so it makes sense to go the next step!), wider mission payload (Mavericks, Harpoons, HARMs (the reason why LANTIRN integration seems too easy), SDBs), and just about anything that would sort out the bugs associated with maintenance (the reason why they got out sooner than the rest of its generation).

Also, updated engines. 131kNs sounds like something closer to the others.
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Old 2008-09-29, 20:02   Link #1228
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Supercruise. 2D thrust vectoring. Low RCS.

Although I would rather want a F-14D Super Tomcat, but with a SLEP upgrade. AESA radar (hey, it got one of the most powerful radars even installed in a fighter, so it makes sense to go the next step!)
hmmm I thought that honor belonged to MiG-25/31. Smerch radar had enormous power — about 600 kilowatts. It can burn through ECMs and jammers (it can even kill a bird nearby!).
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Old 2008-09-29, 20:08   Link #1229
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Hence the use of 'one of the most powerful' in my post. The -25/-31 takes the title for ALL combat aircraft, but the Cats takes the title for Western aircraft.
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Old 2008-09-29, 21:48   Link #1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yeah, I know. Though we did give the Germans a lot more trouble then they bargained for, slowing them down and even stopping them with mostly pre-1900 weaponry, even though they thought they'd capture Holland in a day. It wasn't until the terror bombarding that Holland surrendered. I hope a similar story of fierce resistance against the Neuroi exists in the Strike Witches timeline. We did have Dutch pilots in the air all the way until the end of the war though, most of them were pilots who fled to Britain after Holland fell.

Anyway, a small spark of hope remains because of the world map. I had fully expected Holland to be part of Karlsland, but we remain suspiciously alone, if so far nameless. If a witch would come to the scene, she'd probably be wearing a Striker based on the Fokker G.I or D.XXI Though they could also use members of the 322 RAF Squadron, which was made up out of Dutch pilots. In that case she'd probably have a spitfire model.
I'd expect Aussies (very oddly absent all things considered) or even Polish before that myself, as let's face it both are more famous and who get's included seems to be very much a popularity contest. I'd like to see someone based on Clive Caldwell in a P-40 in the African campaign for instance.

Quote:
I'll have an F-22 Striker, then. Shirley's Mustang was able to break Mach-1, going nearly twice as fast as the plane it originated from. Imagine how monstrous an F-22 Striker would be.
Spoiler for Warning, Warning Tech Rant!:


Quote:
Seconded.
So many plot bunnies, so much school work...

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Originally Posted by kct View Post
Supercruise. 2D thrust vectoring. Low RCS.

Although I would rather want a F-14D Super Tomcat, but with a SLEP upgrade. AESA radar (hey, it got one of the most powerful radars even installed in a fighter, so it makes sense to go the next step!), wider mission payload (Mavericks, Harpoons, HARMs (the reason why LANTIRN integration seems too easy), SDBs), and just about anything that would sort out the bugs associated with maintenance (the reason why they got out sooner than the rest of its generation).

Also, updated engines. 131kNs sounds like something closer to the others.
If you want to go all what if on older generation fighters though what you want is an F-15 Active with the F-100-PW-232 and the F-15E electronic package and hardpoints system. Some of the best sensors on the planet, 3D thrust vectoring, short take offs and landings, canards, 32k thrust per engine, can fire any AAM and 90% of the AG weapons in the arsenal, and on top of all that check out that bitchin paint scheme!

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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
hmmm I thought that honor belonged to MiG-25/31. Smerch radar had enormous power — about 600 kilowatts. It can burn through ECMs and jammers (it can even kill a bird nearby!).
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Originally Posted by kct View Post
Hence the use of 'one of the most powerful' in my post. The -25/-31 takes the title for ALL combat aircraft, but the Cats takes the title for Western aircraft.
Debatable IMO AESA radars like those on the F-22 have been purposed for us as "Microwave Death rays" that can fry and hard kill enemy missiles or even aircraft by focusing in there emissions on them. It sounds outlandish, but then so does the Air Force cursing along on a "Laser Gunship" Which by the way is awesome I mean how cool will it be when some guys under fire in asscrackistan can get on the radio and request a “laser strike” in fact I think this demands a new motto for gunships how about:
“You can run, but you’ll only die tired, blind, and on FIRE."
Technology rules.
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Old 2008-09-30, 03:17   Link #1231
Keroko
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Question: In episode 6 Sanya notes a Neuroi approaching from 'Sirius' geographically speaking its likely this means the Neuroi is approaching from Netherlands, considering all other surrounding countries have been named, though Belgium is also possible. Does anyone have confirmation on this?

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
I'd expect Aussies (very oddly absent all things considered) or even Polish before that myself, as let's face it both are more famous and who get's included seems to be very much a popularity contest. I'd like to see someone based on Clive Caldwell in a P-40 in the African campaign for instance.
True. But I can hope.

Edit: In fact, I think I may have found them.



That's a Dutch flag on those wings. Upside down due to the position, but a Dutch flag nonetheless. Maybe the text has some additional info... could someone translate?

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Spoiler for Warning, Warning Tech Rant!:
Huh, I was using Wiki which said the P-51D's top speed was 703 KM/H, and with Shirley stating she'd need to go 1200 KM/H to reach Mach 1, I figured she was.

Though I do disagree with it being dangerous to go beyond Mach 2. After all, if a girl with only a swimsuit can reach that speed and suffer no ill effects, I'm sure they can figure out something to make even higher speeds viable.

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So many plot bunnies, so much school work...
Work in my case, which is even worse. >_<
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Old 2008-09-30, 05:37   Link #1232
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
The Witches aren't going to claim credit for freeing France are they? Afterall, the Warlock did all the work, even though it went crazy because they launched too earlier.
They destroyed the next threat, which had become very Neuroi anyway.
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:27   Link #1233
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Question: In episode 6 Sanya notes a Neuroi approaching from 'Sirius' geographically speaking its likely this means the Neuroi is approaching from Netherlands, considering all other surrounding countries have been named, though Belgium is also possible. Does anyone have confirmation on this?
Sirius has never been mentioned anywhere else, as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Edit: In fact, I think I may have found them.



That's a Dutch flag on those wings. Upside down due to the position, but a Dutch flag nonetheless. Maybe the text has some additional info... could someone translate?
Sergeant Wilma Bishop, of the Royal Falwayland (ファラウェイランド - Faraueirando - Farawayland?) Air Force 416th Flying Squadron, and her wingmen, intercepting an armed Neuroi reconnaissance plane over the Dover Strait in 1941. The 416th Flying Squadron is a unit formed by pilots sent from Falwayland of the Britannian Commonwealth, and was stationed at BAF Martlesham Heath in Suffolk at this point in time. Equipped with the Ultramarine Spitfire MkII, Sgt. Bishop and her wingmen recorded one plane shot down during this battle.

Never noticed the flag, but considering it's Wilma Bishop, based on Billy Bishop (Canadian), I'd always assumed Farawayland or whatever was Canada, especially since it's a Commonwealth state.

Well, now that I've translated it, I guess I should clean this... though I'm almost done with Kuroe's <_<.
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:35   Link #1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Question: In episode 6 Sanya notes a Neuroi approaching from 'Sirius' geographically speaking its likely this means the Neuroi is approaching from Netherlands, considering all other surrounding countries have been named, though Belgium is also possible. Does anyone have confirmation on this?
Sirius also happens to be you know the brightest star in the sky. So if one wanted to indicate a rough vector to a contact at night...

Sometimes the simple answers are best.

Quote:
True. But I can hope.

Edit: In fact, I think I may have found them.



That's a Dutch flag on those wings. Upside down due to the position, but a Dutch flag nonetheless. Maybe the text has some additional info... could someone translate?
IIRC a number of flags were altered for the series (in some cases for obvious reason like the lack of a Nazi party) so yeah translation would be needed to say one way or another.

Quote:
Huh, I was using Wiki which said the P-51D's top speed was 703 KM/H, and with Shirley stating she'd need to go 1200 KM/H to reach Mach 1, I figured she was.
1200 =/= 1400+ kilometers per hour. Or in the case of later models more like 1700. It's also mentioned in the ep IIRC that she tuned or modded the machine so comparing it a stock model hardly seems fair. The difference is certainly notable, but it's not twice as fast.

Quote:
Though I do disagree with it being dangerous to go beyond Mach 2. After all, if a girl with only a swimsuit can reach that speed and suffer no ill effects, I'm sure they can figure out something to make even higher speeds viable.
The problem only begins to manifest at speeds of over mach 2, but I have issues with them being able to handle it. They feel cold, it's dulled but they feel it so they'll feel heat and at mach 2 it would be HOT. (I'm also not sure if one could breath such highly compressed air, but I can't be sure either way on that.)
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Old 2008-09-30, 06:37   Link #1235
Keroko
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Originally Posted by selkirk View Post
Sirius has never been mentioned anywhere else, as far as I know.
So it could be Netherlands or Belgium then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by selkirk View Post
Sergeant Wilma Bishop, of the Royal Falwayland (ファラウェイランド - Faraueirando - Farawayland?) Air Force 416th Flying Squadron, and her wingmen, intercepting an armed Neuroi reconnaissance plane over the Dover Strait in 1941. The 416th Flying Squadron is a unit formed by pilots sent from Falwayland of the Britannian Commonwealth, and was stationed at BAF Martlesham Heath in Suffolk at this point in time. Equipped with the Ultramarine Spitfire MkII, Sgt. Bishop and her wingmen recorded one plane shot down during this battle.

Never noticed the flag, but considering it's Wilma Bishop, based on Billy Bishop (Canadian), I'd always assumed Farawayland or whatever was Canada, especially since it's a Commonwealth state.

Well, now that I've translated it, I guess I should clean this... though I'm almost done with Kuroe's <_<.
Canadian? Aww *deflates* Why do they fly under the Dutch flag then? I mean, even before the maple flag in 1964 they used a divert of the English flag, not Dutch...

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Sirius also happens to be you know the brightest star in the sky. So if one wanted to indicate a rough vector to a contact at night...

Sometimes the simple answers are best.
Ah, well we call that the poolster, so I didn't realize that.

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1200 =/= 1400+ kilometers per hour. Or in the case of later models more like 1700. It's also mentioned in the ep IIRC that she tuned or modded the machine so comparing it a stock model hardly seems fair. The difference is certainly notable, but it's not twice as fast.
I never said exactly, I said nearly, as in a general figure. It reads easier then 'went almost 3/4th faster' And not everyone is an expert in planes, so I just went with he general info.

Anyway, if a bit of tinkering can drastically increase the speed of a Striker above the plane its based on, then I'd still have a Striker F-22 any day. But then, even if you couldn't I'd still take the Striker.

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The problem only begins to manifest at speeds of over mach 2, but I have issues with them being able to handle it. They feel cold, it's dulled but they feel it so they'll feel heat and at mach 2 it would be HOT. (I'm also not sure if one could breath such highly compressed air, but I can't be sure either way on that.)
Like I said, even if current witches aren't able to stand it, I'm sure that by the time Strikers of F-22 manufacture role down the line, magical safety features to ensure the pilots survival will have been in place too.
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:25   Link #1236
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And we hardly see anyone going consistently more than Mach 2 (other than the research planes like the XB-70, the SR-71 back on their heydays, and the MiG-25/31, in which they fried their engines in the process).

Not to mention that everyone moved to ensure that all corners are covered in the current generation (that was the reason the JSF sounded like an attractive proposition, with multirole, possibly the most powerful single jet engine (at 180kN) ever installed in a production military jet fighter, and low RCS).
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:27   Link #1237
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like this series very much

here's some avy of my fave witch


I like to move it move it...

feel free to grab it
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:35   Link #1238
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Nice avatars there.

Also, the other thing about being beyond Mach 2.0. After the retirement of the USN Tomcats, there are NOTHING in the USN inventory that does more than that. Superbugs topped at Mach 1.9.
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Old 2008-09-30, 11:52   Link #1239
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And we hardly see anyone going consistently more than Mach 2 (other than the research planes like the XB-70, the SR-71 back on their heydays, and the MiG-25/31, in which they fried their engines in the process).

Not to mention that everyone moved to ensure that all corners are covered in the current generation (that was the reason the JSF sounded like an attractive proposition, with multirole, possibly the most powerful single jet engine (at 180kN) ever installed in a production military jet fighter, and low RCS).
F-22s do it all the time then again they cruise TO a fight at mach 1.5 so… some fun quotes from its test pilots:

“This airframe is actually at its best at supersonic speeds, with the best time to climb right off the deck. Conventional fighters have their best time to climb using a Rutowski climb profile. That is, they start with a subsonic climb to the tropopause (about 36,000 feet) and then perform a pushover to supersonic speed and climb supersonically from there. The Raptor can dispense with this complex profile and blast off supersonic from the deck. This machine just likes to go fast.”

“Although the F-22 uses a fixed inlet design, the overall engine and airframe are optimized for the high supersonic speeds. Acceleration and Ps are phenomenal at the right hand side of the flight envelope. The Raptor can easily exceed its design speed limits, particularly at low altitude. We have incorporated max speed cues and alerts to remind pilots when approaching the limits.”

How can you not love an airplane that goes too fast.

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Originally Posted by Kct

Also, the other thing about being beyond Mach 2.0. After the retirement of the USN Tomcats, there are NOTHING in the USN inventory that does more than that. Superbugs topped at Mach 1.9.
*snickers*

The Superbug wishes with all it's bloated overgrown heart it could go that fast, the sad fact is that it can't even go supersonic with a normal external weapons load below around 15,000 feet, and it's quoted "top speed" figures are taken on aircraft without pylons nevermind weapons and probably lightly loaded with fuel to boot. The F-18E is a nice light bomber, but it's a fucking awful fighter. The Navy wants the JSF bad for a reason: It can hardly be worse then the peice of shit they have now.

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So it could be Netherlands or Belgium then...
Or it could be the gaint glowing ball of plasma in the sky that has that name in real life...

Quote:
Canadian? Aww *deflates* Why do they fly under the Dutch flag then? I mean, even before the maple flag in 1964 they used a divert of the English flag, not Dutch...
Well frankly a flag with red, white, and blue bars isn't exactly stunningly unique my friend. It could also be some sort of battleflag or unit marking.

Quote:
I never said exactly, I said nearly, as in a general figure. It reads easier then 'went almost 3/4th faster' And not everyone is an expert in planes, so I just went with he general info.
I don't like general info with airplanes myself, but it's a pet peeve I suppose. Probably spawned by guys that are like "ZOMG Zero is SOOO manuverable lololol!!!" nevermind that it can't roll for shit, or loop, that it's performance goes to crap above about 15,000 feet, and that any speed over 275 mph it controls lock up and it handles like such a birck shithouse that P-40s, F6Fs, and P-38s can turn inside it.

But sure it's maneuverable as hell.

Quote:
Anyway, if a bit of tinkering can drastically increase the speed of a Striker above the plane its based on, then I'd still have a Striker F-22 any day. But then, even if you couldn't I'd still take the Striker.
Well we don't know how much tinkering was involved they had a fully stocked base and presumably accesses to all manner of parts so it could have been rather extensive. The unit in questions pilot certainly strikes me as the type to modify the hell out of anything she drives.

Quote:
Like I said, even if current witches aren't able to stand it, I'm sure that by the time Strikers of F-22 manufacture role down the line, magical safety features to ensure the pilots survival will have been in place too.
That seems like an awfully big assumption to be making so casually I can think of about a number of monkey wrenches to toss into that works.

-That the magical power of the witches which is unlikely to drastically change is the main limiting factor.
-That the physical forces involved which I've already discussed at length and you totally ignored can't be overcome.
-That Strikers can just keep scaling up in output drastically even when as noted the power of the pilots is unlikely to change significantly. Sure your average witch can run the WWII strikers with her powers, but that hardly automatically means she could run a jet unit with ten times the output.
-It assumes that the entire concept can be maintained in its current form (witches as air superiority units).

That last one is a doozy IMO while the setting of the current battle is basically engineered to make them the most viable weapon in a more normal human on human battle the viability of witches could be questioned.

Let’s use those supposed F-22 Striker as an example case first off you’re going to have way fewer of them you’d have of even normal F-22s, second the pilots of them will be aging out constantly and in an era of dispersed wars they’d never last enough to be around to help the next generation in the next war. Fighter pilots though with careers that can span 30+ years have the endurance to remain around and pass on there experience to several generations. Another issue is that the required constant supply of recruits could quite possibly require forced conscription to maintain in peace time and lastly individual fighting prowess means little in the age of electronics.

Thus it becomes a cost benefit question I can have thousands of tactical fighters with pilots that will serve for 30 years or I can have probably a few hundred (in a big country) less capable witches that are constantly being turned over and demand a large outlay of resources that are useless on anything else. Which comes to the second point now I’m sure you’ll go “They wouldn’t be less effective!” but then I ask. “How is a witch going to fly 10,000 miles like a B-52?” “How will she survey and control hundreds of miles of airspace like an AWCAS crew?” “How is she going to carry a dozen 300+ pound Air to Air missiles?”

Going back to the F-22 a single AMRAAM is around three times (maybe more) heavier then the heaviest of weapons we’ve every seen a witch carry. (This is before we get into the fact it’s twelve feet long.) An F-22 could possibly carry up to 14 of these, plus two ten foot 200 pound sidewinders, oh and its 200 pound 20mm vulcan and about the same weight in shells… Oh and you’re going to need the 300 pound radar to aim all those! But that radar won’t do much good without the hundreds of pounds of computers to go with it better take those too!

The sight of a witch toppled over on the runway, buried in a pile of crap, and moaning “I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!” comes to mind.

It really is a growth issue sure being able to fly pretty fast and shot a fairly large caliber gun is good enough in World War II, but it’s not good enough in the 21st century. So basically I see two options you bulk up the Strikers to the point they’re basically fighter jets anyway which calls the entire point into question or you shift them to where they’d still work well in the vein of helicopters and Spec Ops. I can think of all sorts of fun things to do with an infantry force that’s air mobile without helicopters… fighting jets isn’t one of them though.

So yeah I can imagine an F-22 striker, but I’m imagining it would be REALLY shitty compared to a plain old F-22…

Does any of this sound familiar?
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Old 2008-09-30, 13:11   Link #1240
Keroko
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Or it could be the gaint glowing ball of plasma in the sky that has that name in real life...
Like I said, I wasn't aware the thing was called like that in English.

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Well frankly a flag with red, white, and blue bars isn't exactly stunningly unique my friend. It could also be some sort of battleflag or unit marking.
It's not exactly common as dirt either. True, red white and blue are common colors in flags, but usually in varying orders or forms. Red-white-blue in that order is actually rather rare. For countries anyway, because you're right about the 416th having that color pattern painted on their tails. I did a bit of digging, and the 416th was indeed a Canadian Squadron.

Ah well, they're my current favorites anyway. I like Canada, and nothing screams 'awesome' more then a squadron of cute girls in leather jackets blasting the crap out of an enemy. I also like the pre-novel Striker design (with bendable knee joints) better then the current heavy-lump ones.

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I don't like general info with airplanes myself, but it's a pet peeve I suppose. Probably spawned by guys that are like "ZOMG Zero is SOOO manuverable lololol!!!" nevermind that it can't roll for shit, or loop, that it's performance goes to crap above about 15,000 feet, and that any speed over 275 mph it controls lock up and it handles like such a birck shithouse that P-40s, F6Fs, and P-38s can turn inside it.

But sure it's maneuverable as hell.
Well, I'm not an expert on airplanes, so you'll see me referring to general info a lot. Mostly because that's all I know, or can find.

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Well we don't know how much tinkering was involved they had a fully stocked base and presumably accesses to all manner of parts so it could have been rather extensive. The unit in questions pilot certainly strikes me as the type to modify the hell out of anything she drives.
Considering she modifies stuff in her bed before falling asleep, I think that's a given.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
That seems like an awfully big assumption to be making so casually I can think of about a number of monkey wrenches to toss into that works.

-That the magical power of the witches which is unlikely to drastically change is the main limiting factor.
-That the physical forces involved which I've already discussed at length and you totally ignored can't be overcome.
-That Strikers can just keep scaling up in output drastically even when as noted the power of the pilots is unlikely to change significantly. Sure your average witch can run the WWII strikers with her powers, but that hardly automatically means she could run a jet unit with ten times the output.
-It assumes that the entire concept can be maintained in its current form (witches as air superiority units).

Spoiler for length:
The problem here is that you only look at the advances made in magic, not magic and technology as a whole. Physics can't be overcome? If that was true the F-22 wouldn't even exist.

The magical power of witches is not likely to change drastically, but how about the technology to concentrate and enhance that power? As technology progresses, its highly likely that Striker units will be able to go faster, be more maneuverable and yet have the same energy expenditure, perhaps slightly more, perhaps slightly less, because of the advances in technology. Likewise, the physics can be overcome by increasing the effect of the magical protection of the witches, again through technology.

I don't understand what you are trying to prove with showing that on the long term, normal fighters are superior. I never even argued that (well, against Neuroi I might, but we aren't talking about Neuroi here), and with the whole 'magic deteriorates below combat level when witches reach their 20s' I don't see how this can be argued. It also has nothing to do with whether an F-22 Striker will be able to reach Mach-2.

Really, how you turned my claim that an F-22 Striker could be faster then an F-22 Fighter into which of the two is overall superior is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Does any of this sound familiar?
Pretty much. It's the Nanoha tech thread all over again. You're of the opinion that magic can never equal technology, while I'm of the opinion that magic can take over and enhance elements of the technology and vice versa, thus strengthening the whole.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-09-30 at 14:40.
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