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Old 2008-05-28, 22:08   Link #341
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
She said in ep 8 that she created the tree, which she didn't. It was planted by her grandmother for her.
No, this is where you misunderstood. She's telling the truth -- this sakura tree was created by Sakura, but it had a flaw: unlike the original sakura tree, this tree granted all wishes whether good or evil. That's what she explained to Otome. They may explain this in more detail in the coming episodes. There are no story conflicts or regressions here, only things yet to be explained.

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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
When along the way did she revive the tree and why?
I will wait to see if the anime answers this question in the episodes to come -- there are still 5 left, after all. But part of the answer was already given. And keeping in mind what I said above: she didn't revive the tree, she created the tree (as she said).

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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
Being random, I meant that there wasn't really any hint of connection between Yoshiyuji and the tree or Sakura using its power for Yoshiyuji prior to ep 8, therefore, it seemed to be last ditch climax. You can argue there was, by saying she brought Yoshiyuji home one day out of no where to become part of the family and that was the hint there. But is that really? Where was there the slightest implication that the tree was connect. Next to none would know if they had not seen ep 8.
There were a lot of hints, you just didn't notice them. The most blatant of hints was the pendant that Sakura gave him every time he left the Hatsunejima area; the one that she insisted he not take off while he was away. (I noticed that some viewers and bloggers unfamiliar with the game did catch this hint.) In recent episodes, they were setting the foundation to this as they dug into all of the strange occurrances that were going on in town, and how they were all tied back to the tree's recent return, which also happened to coincide with the time when Sakura first brought in Yoshiyuki. So they had been laying out all the pieces for us, but this episode is where they brought them all together. Of course, you were not supposed to have figured it all out until this episode, but when you re-watch the series, you will see the hints placed throughout.

Besides, even setting all that aside, I'm at a complete loss to see how you could call this a "last ditch climax". What has this whole season been all about if not for the focus on this very mystery? Everything was leading to this moment and the developments to come. Otherwise, what was the point of all the strange goings-on, Otome's investigation, Sakura being away so much, and on and on. Everything they've been talking about for the first 7 episodes of this season was clarified in episode 8, so unless you're saying that this whole season is somehow out of place, then I don't understand where you're coming from.

In short, I guess I just don't get it. Is it really that disjointed?
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Old 2008-05-29, 01:04   Link #342
ThoHell
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Excuse me, didn't the tree from D.C. 1 do the exact same thing. It also granted wishes with bad intent, the main one it focused on was Nemu loosing her memory due to jealousy -- not only did this happen once but twice. Though they didn't show the granting of other wishes that had bad intent, they were granted still. Which is why Sakura established the idea that magic was dangerous. To bring back once again the power of the tree and allow magic which she considered to be dangerous into the world is what I'm referring to her when I said regression in mentality. She went against what she preached, or tried to at least, and did the opposite of what she came to believe.

Do you believe those multitude of out of norm behavior and action from characters toward Yoshiyuji were hints to his fate being intertwined with the tree and preparing us for the revelation of ep 8? Or did you Give them, establish a connection, after watching ep 8? A person can always find false/unintended relationships once suspicion is formed (maybe suspicion wasn't the best word of choice, but I believe it's not hard to get where I'm going with it). Giving meaning to the meaningless, relationship formed when none was meant to be.
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Old 2008-05-29, 01:57   Link #343
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
Excuse me, didn't the tree from D.C. 1 do the exact same thing. It also granted wishes with bad intent, the main one if focused on was Nemu loosing her memory due to jealousy -- not only did this happen once but twice. Though they didn't show the granting of other wishes that had bad intent, they were granted still. Which is why Sakura established the idea that magic was dangerous. To bring back once again the power of the tree and allow magic which she considered to be dangerous into the world is what I'm referring to her when I said regression in mentality. She went against what she preached, or tried to at least, and did the opposite of what she came to believe.
No, that's not how it worked, exactly. The original sakura tree didn't grant wishes, it granted the heart's true desire, even if granting it had unintended consequences. It was very selective, if you recall, about which wishes it didn't and didn't grant, and the way it went about it was not always what the wisher intended. You could say that the original tree had its own purpose, which was to teach a life lesson to Sakura (and the mages that would follow, including Aisia). The lesson was not that "magic is bad", it's that a wish can only bring happiness if the motivation of the wisher is truly pure and selfless (which it wasn't with either Sakura or Aisia). It was about sacrificing your selfishness for someone else's happiness. That was the lesson of both Da Capo and Da Capo Second Season.

The new tree, built by Sakura, is broken in that it grants any wish. It has no compass or restriction whatsoever. It does not take into account the "heart's true desire" at all, in either a good or a bad way. So, it is similar on the surface to the old tree, but very different in practice. The reason Sakura (and Aisia) had to kill the original sakura tree was because the motivation of their hearts wasn't pure. The reason Sakura has to control this tree is because the wishes of others aren't pure/good. It's a key distinction. Another key distinction is that the tree is broken, meaning that it wasn't intended to be that way.

That's really all that I can say based on what they've shown in the anime so far. The rest will have to wait until the anime itself reveals it. But if you want something to think about, ask yourself these (rhetorical) questions: Why exactly did Sakura kill the original tree? Why did she come to believe that magic, and especially using the tree's magic, was dangerous? What was the lesson that she taught Aisia about magic? Since, by her own account, she built the new tree, what would she have had to change in order to "make it work" (where the previous tree failed)? What went wrong?

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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
Do you believe those multitude of out of norm behavior and action from characters toward Yoshiyuji were hints to his fate being intertwined with the tree and preparing us for the revelation of ep 8? Or did you Give them, establish a connection, after watching ep 8? A person can always find false/unintended relationships once suspicion is formed (maybe suspicion wasn't the best word of choice, but I believe it's not hard to get where I'm going with it). Giving meaning to the meaningless, relationship formed when none was meant to be.
I can assure you with absolute 100% certainty that the connection is intended. What I can't tell you for certain is whether or not there was enough information that the average viewer with no prior exposure should have picked up on it. I can say, though, that a number of viewers did pick up on the clues while watching, because I saw them comment and speculate about it. Pretty much nothing in this show is unintentional -- everything is scripted and tied together very closely.

Even if you didn't pick up on the clues, though, I still don't get the problem. How were they supposed to keep it a secret if they gave it away? It's obvious that they were saving this revelation so that it would factor into the climax, of course. Despite the hints (which were only so that, when you got to this point, you wouldn't think it came out of nowhere), the whole point of keeping something a secret is to deliver the plot twist when the time is right. And you normally keep your plot twists to near the end of the story. That's sort of standard operating procedure for fiction writing, is it not? What would be preferable?

As I said before, the entire point of the Otome "mystery" plot was to lead to this revelation, which will factor into the denouement. It would serve no purpose otherwise. So even if you didn't see it coming, we were heading here all along.
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Old 2008-05-29, 02:01   Link #344
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She never said magic was bad nor did I say it. Sakura said "magic is dangerous".
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Old 2008-05-29, 02:11   Link #345
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
She never said magic was bad nor did I say it. Sakura said "magic is dangerous".
That's why I said the point was not that "magic was bad" -- I never said you said so, I said that wasn't the point. As I went on to ask, why was magic dangerous? What made it dangerous? Just because something's dangerous doesn't mean it's to be avoided, especially if you can find a way to deal with the danger. And considering she didn't revive the old tree, but created a new one, you can assume that that was exactly what she was attempting to do, which remains entirely consistent with her earlier belief.
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Old 2008-05-29, 02:19   Link #346
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She said magic was dangerous when Aisia was trying to revive the tree and asked her why she had withered it. She want conveying the idea a magic that grants wishes is dangerous. And to bring about that magic once more with her own hands, how is that NOT going against belief? She withers it, tells Aisia not to do something but turns around and does it herself, what does that imply about a person?
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Old 2008-05-29, 02:24   Link #347
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
She said magic was dangerous when Aisia was trying to revive the tree and asked her why she had withered it. She want conveying the idea a magic that grants wishes is dangerous. And to bring about that magic once more with her own hands, how is that NOT going against belief? She withers it, tells Aisia not to do something but turns around and does it herself, what does that imply about a person?
It's been quite a while since I saw the original but I was under the impression that Sakura tried to teach Aisia not to rely on magic for everything, and that the tree was dangerous. I didn't ever come away with the message that magic itself was dangerous.
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Old 2008-05-29, 02:28   Link #348
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It's been quite a while since I saw the original but I was under the impression that Sakura tried to teach Aisia not to rely on magic for everything, and that the tree was dangerous. I didn't ever come away with the message that magic itself was dangerous.
The magic that grants wishes is dangerous.
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Old 2008-05-29, 02:48   Link #349
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Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
She said magic was dangerous when Aisia was trying to revive the tree and asked her why she had withered it. She want conveying the idea a magic that grants wishes is dangerous. And to bring about that magic once more with her own hands, how is that NOT going against belief? She withers it, tells Aisia not to do something but turns around and does it herself, what does that imply about a person?
You're not listening to what I'm saying at all. What's the problem: the ends or the means? What was the problem with the original sakura tree: the concept or the execution? Why was she telling Aisia not to use magic to grant wises: because magic that grants wishes is dangerous, or because what makes it dangerous is that the motivation behind those wishes was actually selfish? Why did Sakura and Aisia smile at each other at the very end of episode 26 of D.C.S.S.? Once you understand the answers to those questions, you will understand Sakura's decisions. Until then, that's all I'll say on the subject.
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Old 2008-05-29, 02:56   Link #350
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You're not listening to what I'm saying at all. What's the problem: the ends or the means? What was the problem with the original sakura tree: the concept or the execution? Why was she telling Aisia not to use magic to grant wises: because magic that grants wishes is dangerous, or because what makes it dangerous is that the motivation behind those wishes was actually selfish? Once you understand the answers to those questions, you will understand Sakura's decisions. Until then, that's all I'll say on the subject.
Didn't I say it grants wishes of both good and bad intention. Does it need to be repeated for the threads to connect or just single post as a time? Here let me completely sum up where I'm going into one line: The power to grant wishes is dangerous because not all wishes, form the heart's desire, are with good intention -- some are with malicious selfishness. Sleep time.......
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Old 2008-05-29, 03:10   Link #351
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Didn't I say it grants wishes of both good and bad intention. Does it need to be repeated for the threads to connect or just single post as a time? Here let me completely sum up where I'm going into one line: The power to grant wishes is dangerous because not all wishes, form the heart's desire, are with good intention -- some are with malicious selfishness.
Please re-read my previous posts where I already addressed this in multiple different ways (by explaining the distinction between the two trees, how the problem Sakura now faces is different, and how she hasn't regressed on her earlier beliefs but rather progressed in them -- despite the tree being broken). Like I said, I have nothing further to say that hasn't already been said at this point or until the anime reveals more information.
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Old 2008-05-29, 03:46   Link #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoHell View Post
Didn't I say it grants wishes of both good and bad intention. Does it need to be repeated for the threads to connect or just single post as a time? Here let me completely sum up where I'm going into one line: The power to grant wishes is dangerous because not all wishes, form the heart's desire, are with good intention -- some are with malicious selfishness. Sleep time.......
It seems like you've mixed up the power of the trees.

To paraphrase Relentless...

The tree that sakura destroyed in S1 is the one that grants wishes selectively but it came from the heart's true desire. Apparently according to Relentless, the idea was to teach lessons.

The tree in this season was made by sakura and it grants any wish, good or bad without taking into account of the heart's true desire (meaning it is more dangerous in a sense).

edit: on second thoughts...
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Old 2008-05-29, 14:09   Link #353
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You can argue about logic and semantics all you want, but so far D.C. II S.S. lacks the impact of the original D.C. - it falls short in storytelling, characterizations, music, and entertainment value. The biggest problem in my book is the utter blandness of the leads - Yoshiyuki is about as generic as they come, Yume lacks the "dark side" that made her predecessor so entertaining, and Otome had some potential but it was largely wasted.

Still a few more episodes to go, but something will have to happen in the next few episodes for this show to catch my interest again. It's not a matter of whether I "get it" or not; I'm simply bored and hope the show can pull something out of the hat before it's too late.

As for a possible Yume ending, I'm OK with it - if Otome simply isn't interested in her "otouto-kun" and insists on pushing Yume onto him, I can live with that.
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Old 2008-05-30, 08:41   Link #354
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I somewhat agree with this sentiment, except I disagree that the original D.C. is better than this. But that's because I thought the original D.C. was godawful.

I don't think the plot itself is of particular importance. Perhaps the threads that foreshadowed this turning point in the anime were there, and they'd be a little easier to see with a second viewing. But they certainly were difficult to see the first time round. Obviously you can't have the foreshadowing be so obvious that it gives all the plot twists away before they happen, but having a "this all makes sense" feeling accompany the events of episode 8 would have been nice.

But, I agree, the big problem with this series is the characters. There are still big question marks surrounding Sakura's motivations, but the biggest problem character for mine is Yoshiyuki. I distinctly remember he had a personality in the first season. Why does he not have a personality anymore?
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Old 2008-05-30, 12:57   Link #355
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But, I agree, the big problem with this series is the characters. There are still big question marks surrounding Sakura's motivations, but the biggest problem character for mine is Yoshiyuki. I distinctly remember he had a personality in the first season. Why does he not have a personality anymore?
Yoshiyuki didn't seem to have much personality to me in the first season either, unless being generally clueless counts as personality. I agree with DanielSong39...the leads just aren't as interesting to me as the original Da Capo's cast. If I were trying to describe Yoshiyuki to someone, bland is the only thing I can come up with, whereas Junichi at least had the ability to banter with Nemu and the rest of the cast in the original. I'm glad we're getting to the dramatic part of the story now instead of the Minatsu-going-down-on-a-banana filler from the first season, but it's hard not to think about what might have been if we had a lead with more personality.
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Old 2008-05-30, 13:54   Link #356
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I'm glad we're getting to the dramatic part of the story now instead of the Minatsu-going-down-on-a-banana filler from the first season,
While I agree that it's good that we're getting to the dramatic parts, season one was based on the game too, so calling it "filler" seems a bit off... D.C.S.S. can kinda be considered a filler-season, but seeing how it is apparently mentioned in the D.C.II-game, (Not to mention Aisia being in D.C. II P.S) I guess that isn't quite filler either. I mean, there are a few episodes that don't really serve a purpose to the overall story, but apart from the recap-episodes in D.C, I wouldn't really call anything filler in this show.
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Old 2008-05-30, 14:09   Link #357
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I somewhat agree with this sentiment, except I disagree that the original D.C. is better than this. But that's because I thought the original D.C. was godawful.

I don't think the plot itself is of particular importance. Perhaps the threads that foreshadowed this turning point in the anime were there, and they'd be a little easier to see with a second viewing. But they certainly were difficult to see the first time round. Obviously you can't have the foreshadowing be so obvious that it gives all the plot twists away before they happen, but having a "this all makes sense" feeling accompany the events of episode 8 would have been nice.

But, I agree, the big problem with this series is the characters. There are still big question marks surrounding Sakura's motivations, but the biggest problem character for mine is Yoshiyuki. I distinctly remember he had a personality in the first season. Why does he not have a personality anymore?
I'm with you all the way. I was hoping D.C. 2 would be good, guess I was expecting too much. I think it is safe to say that D.C. only has the number of audience it has and still maintain because the foundation D.C. 1 build for it. I guess basically I'm saying they're just trying to milk to title for all it's worth.
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Old 2008-05-30, 19:24   Link #358
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Wow, episode 8 has been the best one in the two seasons until now. But there are some things that I do not get yet.

At the start of the episode, we can see Sakura surprised when she meets Junichi after she is trying to stop the tree and she wonders if he has found out. I think that she is wondering if Junichi has figured out the truth about Yoshiyuki. But I don't see very logical about Junichi not knowing it, just because, how did Sakura introduce Yoshiyuki to the Asakura family? If she went one day to Asakura's home with a little child that came from nowhere, should not Junichi ask who is that boy?

After Sakura meeting Junichi at the tree, the anime skips to the next scene. It looks like they talked about something, maybe that it will be revealed in the next episodes?

About, Yoshiyuki... oh man... he wakes on midnight and sees Sakura, who embraces him, start to cry, says her "charge... complete" and go out. After that he just go back to bed and sleep?????

There is another thing the is keeping me expectating, and is the dream that Yoshiyuki at the start of the chapter. He sees Yume saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume
I'm really happy, even though it has been a short time. You'll have to wake up in the end. That's why we have to bid farewell, Nii-san.
It looks like, again, Yoshiyuki is watching Yume's dream. And we know that Yume is able to foresee the future in her dreams so...

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Old 2008-05-30, 19:27   Link #359
Sorrow-K
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Yoshiyuki didn't seem to have much personality to me in the first season either, unless being generally clueless counts as personality. I agree with DanielSong39...the leads just aren't as interesting to me as the original Da Capo's cast. If I were trying to describe Yoshiyuki to someone, bland is the only thing I can come up with, whereas Junichi at least had the ability to banter with Nemu and the rest of the cast in the original. I'm glad we're getting to the dramatic part of the story now instead of the Minatsu-going-down-on-a-banana filler from the first season, but it's hard not to think about what might have been if we had a lead with more personality.
Maybe he didn't have all that much personality in the first season. I guess I was blinded by the guitar. Put a guitar in someone's hands, and all of a sudden they develop a million times more personality, in my eyes.

Nonetheless, I'd say he was a little more interesting because of the way he functioned within his relationship with Koko. The crux of the series surrounded the way the relationship slowly fell apart. I found that really interesting, partly because that's certainly an atypical direction for a romantic relationship in this genre to take, but moreso because it was a very even-handed relationship analysis.

This series seems to want to go down the melodrama route now, like its less-than-memorable predecessor. That saddens me. Season one showed it could be above such things. It's endemic in this genre for shows to try to force drama down our throats without making a reasonable effort at getting us to understand and sympathize with the important characters (which, in this case, are Sakura and Yoshiyuki). Drama of this nature simply doesn't work if the characters and their motivations are as murky as they are right now in DCIISS.
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Old 2008-05-30, 21:51   Link #360
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While I agree that it's good that we're getting to the dramatic parts, season one was based on the game too, so calling it "filler" seems a bit off... D.C.S.S. can kinda be considered a filler-season, but seeing how it is apparently mentioned in the D.C.II-game, (Not to mention Aisia being in D.C. II P.S) I guess that isn't quite filler either. I mean, there are a few episodes that don't really serve a purpose to the overall story, but apart from the recap-episodes in D.C, I wouldn't really call anything filler in this show.
True, it's more side character stories than pure filler--the way they completely neglected the main sakura tree story in the first season surprised me, but I guess it's no different than a two cour series starting out with the side characters before working their way to the "main" story.

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Nonetheless, I'd say he was a little more interesting because of the way he functioned within his relationship with Koko. The crux of the series surrounded the way the relationship slowly fell apart. I found that really interesting, partly because that's certainly an atypical direction for a romantic relationship in this genre to take, but moreso because it was a very even-handed relationship analysis.
To me that never felt like a real relationship--it just felt like Yoshiyuki was being drawn along by events, didn't really initiate anything, and what was just a faint spark to begin with slowly faded to nothing. In the original, Junichi would fight with Nemu, they'd make up, they'd have misunderstandings...the Yoshiyuki-Koko relationship by comparison was like watching paint dry for me. It was a unique direction to take, starting off with the lead and a side character "going out"...but I can't help thinking there was a lot of wasted potential in that story.

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This series seems to want to go down the melodrama route now, like its less-than-memorable predecessor. That saddens me. Season one showed it could be above such things. It's endemic in this genre for shows to try to force drama down our throats without making a reasonable effort at getting us to understand and sympathize with the important characters (which, in this case, are Sakura and Yoshiyuki). Drama of this nature simply doesn't work if the characters and their motivations are as murky as they are right now in DCIISS.
I thought the original Da Capo did that really well, but in the end there are few things more subjective than if you like/sympathize with the main characters. The trick the original Da Capo pulled off that impressed me was I hated Sakura at first, but by the end she was really sympathetic. DC II SS I think has potential for a strong finish, but I'm a little worried Yoshiyuki's genericness and FEEL's pacing will end up making it fall flat--hopefully I'm wrong though, we'll see.
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