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Old 2008-07-01, 20:08   Link #501
Zippicus
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Overall I liked this series, it was one of the ones I looked forward to watching. The only real beef I have is with the lack of any kind of romantic ending. I can pretty much understand why they decided to go that route so it's not that big of a deal. Personally I'd rather deal with the AFS (angry fan syndrom) and get some kind of conclusive ending though.
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Old 2008-07-02, 00:19   Link #502
shaolinx
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relentlessflame, thanks for clearing that up!

I dont recall the story of DCI that clearly, but if i remember correctly, there was not that sacrificial theme in the early start of the show, where Sakura was granted her wish of hoping: "it would stay the same forever", and the wish that caused nemu to almost die. She didn't really sacrificed anything as far as I know, or did that requirement just popped up after the tree whithered for the first time. hmmmm....
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Old 2008-07-02, 01:39   Link #503
Greenish Growth
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Originally Posted by CooKie D. View Post
Oh were the ONE OVAs any good?
The ONE first OVA was very confusing. The ONE second OVA (ONE ~ True Stories) is one of my favorite anime and contains one of my favorite anime endings. The ending is still tearjerking to me even after watching it six times.

I was disappointed with the Da Capo 2 anime ending, but my expectations were built up too high. Oh well.
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Old 2008-07-02, 01:41   Link #504
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by shaolinx View Post
I dont recall the story of DCI that clearly, but if i remember correctly, there was not that sacrificial theme in the early start of the show, where Sakura was granted her wish of hoping: "it would stay the same forever", and the wish that caused nemu to almost die. She didn't really sacrificed anything as far as I know, or did that requirement just popped up after the tree whithered for the first time. hmmmm....
Yes, because that is the tree's... hmm... "deceptive power"? Not really sure how to explain it properly, but when the tree is in bloom, it grants the wishes of those who call on it. It allows the insecure to read minds, the frightened to see the world, the forgetful to remember perfectly, and the heart-broken to (sort of) stop time. But this is a deceptive gift. It brings happiness for a time but, in the end, is only a way to run away from your problems. Happiness isn't something so easily attained. And in fact, the power to have one's true wishes granted often reveals that the human heart is not as pure as it seems. So the tree's powers can be used for good or evil, and this depends on the heart of the one making the wish. An innocent wish may bring an innocent result, a begrudged wish brings suffering and pain, but a sacrificial wish is the only thing that can truly bring happiness to others and, by extension, contentment to yourself. When the tree was in bloom, it could grant wishes to anyone in Hatsunejima. But, whether the tree was in bloom or not, it was always listening to the hearts of the mages who called on it. In the end, the tree is simply a tool, left by Sakura's grandmother, to teach life lessons to everyone from beyond the grave, and especially to those gifted with the burden of magic.

I hope that's a bit of more comprehensive explanation.
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Old 2008-07-02, 11:21   Link #505
shaolinx
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Yes, because that is the tree's... hmm... "deceptive power"? Not really sure how to explain it properly, but when the tree is in bloom, it grants the wishes of those who call on it. It allows the insecure to read minds, the frightened to see the world, the forgetful to remember perfectly, and the heart-broken to (sort of) stop time. But this is a deceptive gift. It brings happiness for a time but, in the end, is only a way to run away from your problems. Happiness isn't something so easily attained. And in fact, the power to have one's true wishes granted often reveals that the human heart is not as pure as it seems. So the tree's powers can be used for good or evil, and this depends on the heart of the one making the wish. An innocent wish may bring an innocent result, a begrudged wish brings suffering and pain, but a sacrificial wish is the only thing that can truly bring happiness to others and, by extension, contentment to yourself. When the tree was in bloom, it could grant wishes to anyone in Hatsunejima. But, whether the tree was in bloom or not, it was always listening to the hearts of the mages who called on it. In the end, the tree is simply a tool, left by Sakura's grandmother, to teach life lessons to everyone from beyond the grave, and especially to those gifted with the burden of magic.

I hope that's a bit of more comprehensive explanation.
Ah, so the artificial "resurrection"(this word making more sense then "fake tree") of the tree caused it to have the bug that takes on all wishes, including evil.

Now if only they will plant a magical shrub or grass of some kind so that we can have an ova or DCIIS3.... YAY~ moar otome!
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Old 2008-07-02, 16:42   Link #506
mangalowres
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Ahhhh it's finished ... 2 weeks till I can look it
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Old 2008-07-02, 22:14   Link #507
CooKie D.
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Originally Posted by Greenish Growth View Post
The ONE first OVA was very confusing. The ONE second OVA (ONE ~ True Stories) is one of my favorite anime and contains one of my favorite anime endings. The ending is still tearjerking to me even after watching it six times.

Thanks a bunch for the info
Hopefully they're not too hard to find, I'd love to check them out


As for Sakura's sacrifice, I got the impression that the tree was out of power, and so she used her "energy" (power of existence, spirit energy, call it what you wish ) to give the tree some power to grant that final wish...

Not as deep as relentlessflame's explanation, but hey, it works for me
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Old 2008-07-02, 23:16   Link #508
flamingAnimeLover
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i have a quick question:
does any1 know the song at the end of episode 13 (last episode)?
thx in advance
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Old 2008-07-02, 23:44   Link #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CooKie D. View Post
As for Sakura's sacrifice, I got the impression that the tree was out of power, and so she used her "energy" (power of existence, spirit energy, call it what you wish ) to give the tree some power to grant that final wish...
The only reason I don't think that's quite the case is because she was begging the Sakura tree to please grant her request. It was clearly something she couldn't do on her own. So yes it used her power, but it's not like Sakura was ultimately in control; the tree chose to grant her wish/accept her sacrifice. (I guess the tree is like "God"?)

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Originally Posted by flamingAnimeLover View Post
does any1 know the song at the end of episode 13 (last episode)?
It's called "Ameagari kimi no moto he" (雨上がり君のもとへ) and it's sung by CooRie. It'll be included on the dolce 3 Vocal Album being released on Wednesday. I think the title roughly translates to "After the rain, by your side", which is unsurprisingly fitting.
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Old 2008-07-05, 13:51   Link #510
Millenia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
As for Nemu, what I'm more interested in is not if she is dead, but how long ago and what are the circumstances for her death. Was it old age, or did she die young? Maybe they'll shed some light before the end.
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Originally Posted by DanielSong39 View Post
Not sure about Junichi's fate but Episode 9 pretty much cinches it that Nemu's dead. Surely Nemu would play a role in Junichi's sacrifice if she were still alive.
I was hoping to see Nemu join Junichi in the tree but I guess she wasnt around
I remember at the end of D.C. Junichi and Nemu got married and we saw a few encounters with Nemu at the school as a doctor. Getting to the point... Yume and Otome are Junichi's gran kids so that must mean Nemu played her part in this aswell (makes me happy hehe) bugger off you nemu haters
So maybe Nemu could have died by Old age or Death at child birth. But they should have added her in like when Junichi was remembering about old times when Otome asked him about 50 years ago or even when he blended with the tree.
I wish they added Nemu
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Old 2008-07-05, 16:08   Link #511
Shiroth
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I wish they added Nemu
I just think adding Nemu would have pushed the past element of the series over it's limit (it was just about the right level with Sakura and Junichi), though i at least wouldn't mind knowing what happened to Nemu. A little flashback during the time Junichi went to stop the tree would have worked.
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Old 2008-07-05, 19:41   Link #512
Sorrow-K
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Ep 13

Here's a momentum question. If LOGIC is traveling at a very high velocity towards WINDOW, stationary, where will LOGIC be by the end of episode 13?

Spoiler for The one good thing in this episode:


I've been thinking for the last couple of episodes that this show is the anti-Kaiji.
Spoiler for Kaiji and last episode of DCIISS:


DCIISS, on the other hand, seems really intent on denying reality. It's a bit like that awful book by Rhonda Byrne that advocates wishing for something really hard can make it happen. Yes, wishing for something and then going out and working to try to achieve/possess it, perhaps (and even that doesn't guarantee success). But let's not confuse "wishes" and "goals" here. Let's embrace (or at least accept) the reality of the situation and not indulge in wishful reveries. So I object to this ending, which's ultimate message appears to be pretty much the same as Byrne's.

This is where I stop mincing my words: this show sucked. Movie at 12. Review after that.
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Old 2008-07-05, 20:02   Link #513
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
This is where I stop mincing my words: this show sucked.
I see our lengthy conversation accomplished absolutely nothing whatsoever to the point of making things even worse than before. I figured that might be one of the possible outcomes.

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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Here's a momentum question. If LOGIC is traveling at a very high velocity towards WINDOW, stationary, where will LOGIC be by the end of episode 13?
Right where they told us it would be in the show's premise and in its foreshadowing sequences in earlier episodes. Being dissatisfied with the show's answer notwithstanding, the internal logic of how they arrived at that outcome was clearly established in the show and through prior examples (the magical tree, the problem with the artificial magic, the death of falsely-granted wishes, the goal and means of bringing happiness to others through sacrifice, the problem with wiped memories, etc.). There's nothing illogical about it within the confines of the established framework of this show and series.

But alas, no amount of logic is going to change your feelings about the show and its ending. You are certainly allowed your opinion, even if I disagree with it.
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Old 2008-07-05, 21:17   Link #514
Sorrow-K
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I see our lengthy conversation accomplished absolutely nothing whatsoever to the point of making things even worse than before. I figured that might be one of the possible outcomes.
I never said I was going to stop being open and forthright with my opinion, did I?

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Right where they told us it would be in the show's premise and in its foreshadowing sequences in earlier episodes. Being dissatisfied with the show's answer notwithstanding, the internal logic of how they arrived at that outcome was clearly established in the show and through prior examples (the magical tree, the problem with the artificial magic, the death of falsely-granted wishes, the goal and means of bringing happiness to others through sacrifice, the problem with wiped memories, etc.). There's nothing illogical about it within the confines of the established framework of this show and series.

But alas, no amount of logic is going to change your feelings about the show and its ending. You are certainly allowed your opinion, even if I disagree with it.
The basic premise of the universe is that, while the sakura tree exists, anything can happen. This isn't something to be particularly applauded from a writing point of view, since it basically gives them a free get out of jail card whenever they write something that challenges believability (including, but not limited to, Yoshiyuki's behaviour). It might be internally consistent, but the question is, what isn't? The sakura tree could summon Commodore Perry to open Yoshiyuki's heart (to steal a Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei joke), it'd still be consistent.

But my objection to this show's ultimate message still remains, as does my objection to Yoshiyuki's steadfast emotionless disposition. Who can care about any of the events when the show doesn't make much of an effort to convince you to care about the characters? The fact that this is all ultimately little more than a fairytale is just the final infraction.
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Old 2008-07-05, 21:40   Link #515
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
The basic premise of the universe is that, while the sakura tree exists, anything can happen.
. . .

They've spent 78 episodes over the course of 4 different anime series talking about the sakura tree in one way or another, and that's your conclusion about the basic premise of the Da Capo universe? That the tree allows anything to happen?

The point was travelling at a high velocity towards you, and somehow it completely missed you or vice-versa. That's more incredible to me than the window being broken. No wonder you didn't like it.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not trying to be disrespectful in saying this. If that's what you got out of the show, that's what you got out of the show. You watched the show, followed the plot, and that's what you understood from it. I don't know what that means in terms of the show's flaws, or you, or what. But I can at least say that I'm very surprised you saw things this way, because that wasn't my take at all.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2008-07-05 at 22:12. Reason: clarification...
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Old 2008-07-05, 23:02   Link #516
Sorrow-K
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It's a tree that grants wishes. It appears to have a rather blurred criteria of which wishes it grants, and which it ignores, depending on what "mode" it's in. The conflict comes about when characters get consequences to wishes they didn't intend (the old mantra "be careful what you wish for") and the resolution occurs when characters "learn" to use the tree properly.

The question is, why did Yoshiyuki come back? The tree made it so. So why did the tree let him come back? Because Sakura, seeing that with the change of season, Yoshiyuki's memory lingered, decided that she'd beg the tree for him to come back. And it answered her wish because she, along with all those who vaguely remembered Yoshiyuki, wanted it to be so and their feelings compelled the tree to listen to them... for some reason. So does the tree have some sort of consciousness then, does it demand to be respected and relied on before it'll answer people's wishes. If so, why does it make bad things happen? Is the tree some sort of allegory for God? And why is Sakura relying on the tree in this instance after all the trouble it caused in the first place? Did she know the tree was going to disappear after Yoshiyuki was revived? It's a big gamble if she didn't, and if this was the case, why didn't she do this earlier? I guess she could have considered this better timing, but couldn't she have just said, "well, let's wilt the sakura tree to stop the town's suffering, wait til spring, and then bring Yoshiyuki back to life". That way she wouldn't have had to sacrifice herself. I guess this answer to this question is that she didn't realize this was going to happen, which sorta brings me back to my "illogical" claims: not even the characters fully understand the tree. What hope do we, in the audience, have? Certainly, not much on the first viewing. Maybe it makes more sense on multiple viewings, but I consider it poor storytelling if a show can't explain itself sufficiently after the first viewing, that multiple are required to even remotely understand its point.

So, I'm guessing the tree is some sort of symbolism, perhaps for God, perhaps for the power of wishes. Is it making some sort of cryptic point about the nature of wishes and prayer, or is it just, as I largely suspect, a plot device to generate a conflict, and then, in turn save the audience with a happily ever after ending, ie, the type that tugs at the heartstrings, but baffles the mind.
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Old 2008-07-05, 23:13   Link #517
blitz1/2
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I think season 3 could introduce some P.S chars. Just wishful thinking (I know it wouldn't come true)
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Old 2008-07-06, 00:15   Link #518
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
The question is, why did Yoshiyuki come back? The tree made it so. So why did the tree let him come back? Because Sakura, seeing that with the change of season, Yoshiyuki's memory lingered, decided that she'd beg the tree for him to come back. And it answered her wish because she, along with all those who vaguely remembered Yoshiyuki, wanted it to be so and their feelings compelled the tree to listen to them... for some reason. So does the tree have some sort of consciousness then, does it demand to be respected and relied on before it'll answer people's wishes. If so, why does it make bad things happen? Is the tree some sort of allegory for God? And why is Sakura relying on the tree in this instance after all the trouble it caused in the first place? Did she know the tree was going to disappear after Yoshiyuki was revived? It's a big gamble if she didn't, and if this was the case, why didn't she do this earlier? I guess she could have considered this better timing, but couldn't she have just said, "well, let's wilt the sakura tree to stop the town's suffering, wait til spring, and then bring Yoshiyuki back to life". That way she wouldn't have had to sacrifice herself. I guess this answer to this question is that she didn't realize this was going to happen, which sorta brings me back to my "illogical" claims: not even the characters fully understand the tree. What hope do we, in the audience, have? Certainly, not much on the first viewing. Maybe it makes more sense on multiple viewings, but I consider it poor storytelling if a show can't explain itself sufficiently after the first viewing, that multiple are required to even remotely understand its point.
I already largely answered these questions in previous posts on the subject, so I don't know whether it's worth repeating again or not. There's at least an in-story explanation for most of the things you asked.
  • "Why does the tree make bad things happen?" (because the fake tree powers were flawed)
  • "Why does Sakura rely on the tree at the end?" (because eliminating the fake tree power didn't undo all its ill effects - she called on the original tree to make it right)
  • "Why did Yoshiyuki come back?" (because Sakura sacrificed herself to bring happiness to others -- see also D.C.S.S.)
  • "Why is Sakura relying on the tree in this instance after all the trouble it caused in the first place?" (because, a) it was her interference (though the artificial tree powers) that caused the problem and, b) the original/true tree had the power to do good without the flaw Sakura's modification had if the wish was selfless.)
  • "Did she know the tree was going to disappear after Yoshiyuki was revived?" (Unclear -- perhaps. She knew she was sacrificing her own life to allow Yoshiyuki to live.)
  • "Why didn't she do this earlier?" (Because she had messed with the tree, and her efforts to manipulate it/control it failed. It wasn't until the fake tree was stopped that she, as a mage, was able to call on the real tree's powers.)
The last three I'll address in more detail.

"Is the tree some sort of allegory for God?"
Maybe/sort of? It's a manifiestation of Sakura's grandmother's magical beliefs and power; you could say that it exists to watch over and protect Sakura. It's goverened by a sort of moral compass that represents the wisdom of Sakura's grandmother (sort of like "God", I guess). The two principles are, basically, "be careful what you wish for", and "sacrifice for the sake of others brings happiness".

"So does the tree have some sort of consciousness then, does it demand to be respected and relied on before it'll answer people's wishes?"
Well, in light of the above, I guess you could sort of say that it has a moral consciousness. It operates on principle. Does it demand the respect of the mages before it grants their wishes? Hmm... the fake tree did not; it did not discriminate between wishes and tried to grant them all. That was its flaw. The original tree... kind of, I think. When it was in bloom, it granted the sincere/pure wishes of those who called on it. But mages have the ability to influence/"mess with" the tree and have even their selfish wishes granted. I guess you could say that the tree exists to provide happiness to others, but also to serve as a balance to counter mages' selfish desires.

"Why doesn't Sakura understand the tree?"
Well, there are a lot of ways to answer this one. In the strict sense it's because Sakura was never able to fully let go of her selfishness, even after she withered the tree. She still had lingering feelings of loneliness and regret. She was trying to scientifically reproduce the tree's power, but her efforts were flawed in the same way she was -- they were not selfless. So despite her goal to bring happiness to others, she used the power to find happiness for herself. It was only once she totally rid herself of her selfishness by sacrificing her own life to the tree that she was able to have her wish to bring happiness to others granted. (This also made right Otome's own sacrifice that should have brought happiness to others, except for the fact that the fake tree powers were flawed to start with.)

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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Is it making some sort of cryptic point about the nature of wishes and prayer, or is it just, as I largely suspect, a plot device to generate a conflict, and then, in turn save the audience with a happily ever after ending
I would say probably both, in a way, but...
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ie, the type that tugs at the heartstrings, but baffles the mind.
...I don't think it's done in a way that's without logic. It does follow certain rules, and I think it follows them consistently. I don't find it to be arbitrary in the way the story's written -- it's at least internally consistent.

Obviously, all of the above is my own interpretation of the story. I certainly accept that it isn't presented in such a way that makes the physical logic immediately apparent. You have to think about the events carefully and piece together the events from past anime to really understand what's going on with the tree. One could argue that the anime should make all this physical evidence cut and dry for the viewer, but I think that takes away from some of the magic. Still, though, I think the fact that there is a logic at play is important. It makes it worth pondering.


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Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
I think season 3 could introduce some P.S chars. Just wishful thinking (I know it wouldn't come true)
Hey, you never know. I think there are a few different ways they could extend this into another season, including involving the P.S. characters. Just that, without the tree, it arguably sort of loses a bit of what makes it Da Capo. I think it is doable, though.
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Old 2008-07-06, 06:27   Link #519
Millenia
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I myself loved the entire series of D.C. I didnt pick out any bad point and dwell on them, I actually loved it realy much to the point of crying hard threw episode 12 and 13 of D.C II SS.

From what I like to think about the tree bringing Yoshiyuki back is not just Sakura's sacrifice but also the combined effort of Junichi as he is part of the tree too now. And if you remember Sakura and Junichi both sacrificed themself to fix the tree which never worked so insted of being a waste in life it was used combined as Sakura, Junichi and the tree itself to bring Yoshiyuki back and cut the tie between Yoshiyuki and the tree itself. So in a sense Yoshiyuki's life force is the tree with Sakura and Junichi's life energy.

Sorrow-K from what I read from you seemed a little lacking in attention to the series. Best rewatch it back to back in a marathon. Seems like you had forgot most parts of the series due to fanshubs taking too long? I myself waited from episode 4 for the rest of the series to be subbed before I watches it so I didnt forget any past events giving key parts. (my longterm memory sux lol :P).

Relentlessflame has watched it well respects to you.
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Old 2008-07-06, 09:38   Link #520
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Relentlessflame has watched it well respects to you.
Well, that's very nice of you to say, but I also benefitted from having played the game beforehand, so there wasn't so much to "absorb" the first time through. I think all the stuff above was covered in the anime, but some of the points went by quickly and I can easily see how someone might not have understood the significance of what was being said at the time. (Like, for example, the distinction between the "fake tree" and the "real tree", and so on. I think they spent maybe two scenes talking about that, but it's an important plot detail from a logical perspective.) One of Sorrow-K's contentions is that it's hard to understand the anime on a first-time watch (if you're trying to look at the plot's logic as opposed to being swayed by emotions), and that's something I can't judge given my prior knowledge. You said that you watched in a marathon, which probably helped.

I sort of objected to the claim that the anime was illogical, but it may very well be that the anime's message is hard to understand. And this wouldn't be the first time, because there are a lot of people who mistakenly believe to this day the moral of D.C.S.S.'s story was that "magic doesn't bring happiness" -- which actually isn't quite correct (how do you explain the bouquet scene at the end, then?). This all may be no surprise, given that both D.C.S.S. and D.C. II S.S. had the same chief writer. It seems that if you don't pay close attention, you risk missing the point inadvertantly, and perhaps, as Sorrow-K suggests, that can be a bit of a writing flaw. I think there is a definite logic there, but you have to put all the pieces together and really think about it.
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