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Old 2008-07-21, 23:29   Link #261
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripfag View Post
Cutting yourself is a psychological problem. Not a direct medical threat.

Do ho ho...

It doesn't take 40 years for fast food to kill you, it could be less, it could be more, it could never kill you. There are still several bad effects that fast food gives you though.

Smoking does not directly kill you, what does harm people is when they do not smoke in moderation.


Aside from destroying your liver, anyway.
It is a medical threat... you are bleeding, you are harming your body. But wait... this is your civil liberty right? It's your call. I feel smoking is in the same category.

Fast food does NOT kill you. You could eat too much fruits and die. You missed the entire point I was even trying to make. Fast food is just food, it has X nutrients. A person is able to live on fast food. A person cannot live on cigarettes, the cigarettes are just plain harmful. And as Ledgem keeps pointing out, they are addictive drugs!

...as Spectaclar said, your liver can break down a certain amount of alcohol at a time. I don't like alcohol either, but at least having a one drink at the bar isn't going to be as harmful as smoking one cigarette.

And as someone already said, other things being bad for you is no justification.
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Old 2008-07-21, 23:31   Link #262
Tripfag
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
The difference between smoking and fast food is that smoking is addictive. Even if you want to smoke in moderation, the addiction causes you to crave it. Some people seem immune to the addiction, but they seem to be in the vast minority. The addiction is a problem because it makes quitting or even cutting back difficult.

For comparison purposes, suppose you eat at McDonald's for lunch every day. You gain 20 pounds. You decide you don't like the way things are going, so you resolve to stop eating at McDonald's as much or perhaps entirely. I'm sure that some people do develop addictions to McDonald's, but the addictions are likely incomparable to cigarettes, and they're likely an extreme minority. There is no addictive chemical in the food at fast food restaurants. Someone can cut it out. On the other hand, someone who resolves to stop smoking will face a very difficult path. Their body will violently reject the lack of nicotine. They have no choice but to endure physical suffering - unless they satisfy their addiction by continuing to smoke.
Eating fatty foods every day will eventually screw up your metabolism so bad that you'd need to ingest a lot of calories to live a healthy life. And even if you manage to get the fat off, you'll still be stuck with the high cholesterol and heightened blood pressure. It'll be easier for some to break, and hard for others. Just like smoking.

Quote:
It is a medical threat... you are bleeding, you are harming your body.
But it can't kill you. And this is an honest fact: cutting yourself isn't attempted suicide. It's making a cut. You can compare it to someone who gets a lot of piercings, only it has more to do with a psychological disorder.
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Old 2008-07-21, 23:36   Link #263
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Tripfag View Post
Eating fatty foods every day will eventually screw up your metabolism so bad that you'd need to ingest a lot of calories to live a healthy life.
Never heard of that. Do you have a study to prove it?

Quote:
And even if you manage to get the fat off, you'll still be stuck with the high cholesterol and heightened blood pressure. It'll be easier for some to break, and hard for others. Just like smoking.
You're talking about the lingering health impacts of the activity. Instead of comparing that to smoking (and quitting smoking), a better comparison would be to say that it's difficult to get the tar out of your lungs.

To stop eating at fast food restaurants and to stop smoking (assuming addiction) are two barely comparable concepts. If addictive drugs were added into fast food restaurants or if nictone were removed from cigarettes, the comparison would be perfectly valid. I think you're downplaying or even ignoring the addiction factor.
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Old 2008-07-21, 23:43   Link #264
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripfag View Post
But it can't kill you. And this is an honest fact: cutting yourself isn't attempted suicide. It's making a cut. You can compare it to someone who gets a lot of piercings, only it has more to do with a psychological disorder.
Oh sure... It won't kill you, it will just leave you with deep psychological issues that overtime become harder to overcome. And wait... this was for stress relief? Which I was comparing to cigarettes? And don't cigarettes have many bad effects?

I find it hard to discuss with someone who does not try to understand or ignores why I am presenting certain examples.
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Old 2008-07-21, 23:48   Link #265
bbduece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Never heard of that. Do you have a study to prove it?


You're talking about the lingering health impacts of the activity. Instead of comparing that to smoking (and quitting smoking), a better comparison would be to say that it's difficult to get the tar out of your lungs.

To stop eating at fast food restaurants and to stop smoking (assuming addiction) are two barely comparable concepts. If addictive drugs were added into fast food restaurants or if nictone were removed from cigarettes, the comparison would be perfectly valid. I think you're downplaying or even ignoring the addiction factor.
The comparison is about what you choose to put in your body, who deems which one is more legitimate than the other? You say cigarettes are bad, i say bad fat is dangerous.

One side choose to denied detrimental effects of stuff they consume. Smoking side never refute the health risk claims of cigarettes but states that other stuff non smokers consume are also not good for the body. But non smokers choose to ignore or denied the claim. (I smell snobbish egocentric logic)




Since some of you are "so healthy" and want to point out that we are damaging ourselfs, i would like to point out that you are consuming bad stuff as well. I know the dangers i am getting into. Are you in denial?
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Old 2008-07-21, 23:55   Link #266
Nervous Venus
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Not that I don't agree with all of you on cigarettes ( I do), but fast food/food in general can be addicting also, and harmful to a person's health, with or without the "tar" or "niccotine" to induce this habit.

Food addiction is a psychological disorder characterized by preoccupation with food, the availability of food and the anticipation of pleasure from the ingestion of food. It basically involves the repetitive consumption of food against the individuals better judgment resulting in loss of control and preoccupation or the restriction of food and preoccupation with body weight and image.

Just wanted to toss that out.
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Old 2008-07-21, 23:57   Link #267
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbduece View Post
The comparison is about what you choose to put in your body, who deems which one is more legitimate than the other? You say cigarettes are bad, i say bad fat is dangerous.

One side choose to denied detrimental effects of stuff they consume. Smoking side never refute the health risk claims of cigarettes but states that other stuff non smokers consume are also not good for the body. But non smokers choose to ignore or denied the claim. (I smell snobbish egocentric logic)
Yes, I've seen you choosing to argue that there are worse things in the world and that somehow this redeems cigarettes. I don't like that line of reasoning, but you're not wrong. However, that's not my focus.

If you want to harm your body, that's your business. I like to think that we should all be given a second chance, though. If you're eating bad foods and gaining weight, you can change your eating habits. If you're spending too much time watching TV, you can turn it off. With cigarettes, you risk addiction. Addiction means that you can't stop without suffering symptoms of withdrawal, no matter how badly you want to stop.

You're arguing for the freedom of doing what you like with your body. I find it ironic that you downplay addiction so much. Addiction enslaves you to a substance. You lose the freedom to not use that product. So don't misunderstand me when I speak out against cigarettes - if you want to engage in an activity that is harmful to your own body, that's your business and your responsibility. I don't think it's right that you should potentially suffer for the rest of your life against your own will because a product with a known addictive substance is allowed to be sold. Remove nicotine from cigarettes.
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Old 2008-07-22, 00:08   Link #268
Vexx
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aye, its red wine.. however, any alcohol taken in small quantities has some minor temporary cardiac and vascular relief.
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Old 2008-07-22, 00:09   Link #269
bbduece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Yes, I've seen you choosing to argue that there are worse things in the world and that somehow this redeems cigarettes. I don't like that line of reasoning, but you're not wrong. However, that's not my focus.

If you want to harm your body, that's your business. I like to think that we should all be given a second chance, though. If you're eating bad foods and gaining weight, you can change your eating habits. If you're spending too much time watching TV, you can turn it off. With cigarettes, you risk addiction. Addiction means that you can't stop without suffering symptoms of withdrawal, no matter how badly you want to stop.

You're arguing for the freedom of doing what you like with your body. I find it ironic that you downplay addiction so much. Addiction enslaves you to a substance. You lose the freedom to not use that product. So don't misunderstand me when I speak out against cigarettes - if you want to engage in an activity that is harmful to your own body, that's your business and your responsibility. I don't think it's right that you should potentially suffer for the rest of your life against your own will because a product with a known addictive substance is allowed to be sold. Remove nicotine from cigarettes.
Not redeeming cigarettes since it does not require it.

Following the stigmatize social mind set and have this ideology that only non smoking is the the only way people can live is rediculous.

i am addicted to anime, it cause me to sleep late soemtimes and i will be extra tired the next day, maybe i should stop.

Please, using the addiction card and saying that everyone is in the same situation is absurd. Most people understand it and choose to ignore it, some cant help it and they should seek professional help. But generalizing that all smoker are in the same situation is just plain silly.

FYI, i like the nicotine, why do you get to choose what i consume, since if wont affect you either way. I'm enjoying it not you.

I'm also addicted to the information super highway call internet/social-nertworking/forums/etc, . Its enslaving me, we should remove that. ????

We exist in society for some reason, we coexist and find a mutual understanding. Just because it is dangerous and you don't approve doesnt mean others can't enjoy it and experience it. As long as it does not bother you than it should be fine. And if you are talking about health care or social side affects than thier are plenty of stuff everyone dont agree on but we live with it.
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Old 2008-07-22, 00:24   Link #270
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbduece View Post
i am addicted to anime, it cause me to sleep late soemtimes and i will be extra tired the next day, maybe i should stop.
The response to this statement is similar to what I would have written to Nervous_Venus - there are different types of addiction, but there is a big difference between a psychological addiction (your "addiction" to anime, and the addiction that people can develop to food) and a chemical addiction. I am not claiming that one is worse than the other, but there is a fundamental difference between the two. One is more or less out of a person's control, and the other is something that can be avoided. Spoiler: the one that can be avoided is the chemical addiction.

Quote:
Please, using the addiction card and saying that everyone is in the same situation is absurd. Most people understand it and choose to ignore it, some cant help it and they should seek professional help. But generalizing that all smoker are in the same situation is just plain silly.
Just because people know that cigarette are addictive doesn't mean that they understand what an addiction is. Look at you - you're comparing smoking to being addicted to anime. I think that anyone who is suffering an addiction to any substance would yell at you for your ignorance.

Quote:
FYI, i like the nicotine, why do you get to choose what i consume, since if wont affect you either way. I'm enjoying it not you.
How selfish. Are you OK with the idea that people should be able to take cocaine and heroin, and that it's allowable just because they are substances that are known to be addictive? People should get to choose what goes into their bodies, right?

Why are you not upset with the idea that once a person is addicted, they're no longer able to choose what goes into their bodies? If they want to stop putting the substance into their body they must suffer through withdrawal, and for some the addiction never completely fades? Why aren't you upset that companies are enslaving people to their products and removing their ability to choose not to use their products?
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Old 2008-07-22, 00:33   Link #271
FateAnomaly
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Smokers love their cigarette smoke and non-smokers love their fresh air. Its hard to convince either to give it up. You can only hope that smokers will be considerate enough to smoke in private (extremely low chance).
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Old 2008-07-22, 00:48   Link #272
bbduece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
The response to this statement is similar to what I would have written to Nervous_Venus - there are different types of addiction, but there is a big difference between a psychological addiction (your "addiction" to anime, and the addiction that people can develop to food) and a chemical addiction. I am not claiming that one is worse than the other, but there is a fundamental difference between the two. One is more or less out of a person's control, and the other is something that can be avoided. Spoiler: the one that can be avoided is the chemical addiction.


Just because people know that cigarette are addictive doesn't mean that they understand what an addiction is. Look at you - you're comparing smoking to being addicted to anime. I think that anyone who is suffering an addiction to any substance would yell at you for your ignorance.


How selfish. Are you OK with the idea that people should be able to take cocaine and heroin, and that it's allowable just because they are substances that are known to be addictive? People should get to choose what goes into their bodies, right?

Why are you not upset with the idea that once a person is addicted, they're no longer able to choose what goes into their bodies? If they want to stop putting the substance into their body they must suffer through withdrawal, and for some the addiction never completely fades? Why aren't you upset that companies are enslaving people to their products and removing their ability to choose not to use their products?
You say Tomaeto, i say Tomaaaato

Do you know what the addiction of cigarette is. Have you been addicted because you sound like someone with no experience from this side.

btw its not physical for everyone, it could be psychological.

My cousin is doctor and hes been pestering me to quit since he got into medical school, But when hes drunk he always comes and grab a stogy from me.

From where i'm standing it seems like you are mentally affected by all the articles and stuff your read with no personal experience with cigarettes . You make it sound like an epidemic. Its not that dangerous, relax.

I don't feel this addiction you are talking about. But i've seen it and my point is not everyone is the same - hence my previous post about generalization.

And you got it wrong i dont smoke on a daily bases (social smoker), with no physical body craving through out the week. I dont feel a problem but then again i have 1st hand experience. I'm not saying you have smoke to be fully verse in this subject matter but atleast have the courtesy to understand both sides.

So like i said; for people who are seriously addicted to cigarettes, food, alcohol, sex (maybe not), drugs, weed (?), WoW, adultury, etc should get some proffessional help.

Did anyone see the cancer warning inside Mcdonalds?

Last edited by bbduece; 2008-07-22 at 01:04.
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Old 2008-07-22, 01:03   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbduece View Post
And you got it wrong i dont smoke on a daily bases (social smoker), with no physical body craving through out the week. I dont feel a problem but then again i have 1st hand experience. I'm not saying you have smoke to be fully verse in this subject matter but atleast have the courtesy to understand both sides.
Congratulations?

Other things are addictive so it is okay? Not 100% of people get addicted so it is okay? Other things are bad besides smoking, so it is okay? This is such terrible logic. People are fighting these other bad things all the time, people try to help others break and stay away from some of these psychological addictions, and for goodness sakes... a majority of smokers are addicted. It is a very real problem.

Quote:
Overall, over 60% of ever daily smokers met strict diagnostic criteria for having become nicotine dependent. But almost all smokers had experienced at least one symptom of nicotine dependence. For example, 97% of “dependent” smokers had experienced difficulty cutting down their cigarette consumption, as had 72% of “non-dependent” smokers. The authors acknowledged that the differences in dependence between these two groups may be more quantitative rather than qualitative. The authors also acknowledged that certain co-occurring factors appear to make it more likely that a smoker will bcome dependent. An example they provided was a history of major depression, which is associated with approximately 100% nicotine dependence among heavy smokers.
Here is a link to that...
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Old 2008-07-22, 01:14   Link #274
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by bbduece View Post
Do you know what the addiction of cigarette is. Have you been addicted because you sound like someone with no experience from this side.

btw its not physical for everyone, it could be psychological.
I didn't say that an addiction needs to be exclusive. You could be addicted on both counts. However, you need to recognize that there is a difference between the two. As to your first statement, I don't see why it particularly matters whether I've experienced an addiction or not - if what I'm saying is wrong, please disprove it with facts, not with anecdotal evidence.

Quote:
My cousin is doctor and hes been pestering me to quit since he got into medical school, But when hes drunk he always comes and grab a stogy from me.
There are doctors that smoke and there are doctors that do hard drugs. Do you think that makes those any less unhealthy? Doctors are not gods - they're expected to know about the body and about health, but they're still human. They are just as prone to poor judgement as you and I are.

Quote:
I don't feel this addiction you are talking about. But i've seen it and my point is not everyone is the same - hence my previous post about generalization.
I've been saying that not everyone is the same as well. I can appreciate your "relax and enjoy life" attitude, but you're downplaying addiction very, very heavily.

I've raised this issue a few times before, but in case you missed it, I'll mention it again. Before the government began cracking down on foods, Coca Cola used to be made with trace amounts of cocaine. There was no federal requirement that products show all their ingredients, so people weren't aware of this. The idea was that people would drink Coke and develop a minor addiction to cocaine. They would associate their addiction with Coca Cola, and thus would keep buying the soft drink to satisfy their addiction - an addiction that they probably wouldn't be aware of. The government later banned this practice and it became a requirement for all food and drug products to list the ingredients that went into them.

Do the actions of Coca Cola not bother you? Do you think it's right that a product should be sold that physically addicts people (their bodies begin to crave that substance and behave poorly when that substance isn't in the bloodstream)? I call that exploitation. Selling a product like that is taking advantage of the way that your body works in order to turn a profit. This isn't about crapping up your lungs, this is about keeping you free to choose what you want to do and what you don't want to do.

So you're not addicted, and you're a social smoker. That's fantasic. I hope you never experience what a full-out addiction is like. Unfortunately, there are many, many people in society who are fighting day in and day out to gain control over their addictions, to stop giving money to a company for a product that they no longer want to use. I don't think it's right that such exploitation is allowed to occur. Do you?
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Old 2008-07-22, 01:16   Link #275
bbduece
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Congratulations?

Other things are addictive so it is okay? Not 100% of people get addicted so it is okay? Other things are bad besides smoking, so it is okay? This is such terrible logic. People are fighting these other bad things all the time, people try to help others break and stay away from some of these psychological addictions, and for goodness sakes... a majority of smokers are addicted. It is a very real problem.



Here is a link to that...
Like i said get them professional help.

What do you propose? We buy cigarettes in the black market like weed?

Lots of Alcoholics too equal if not worst addiction, so i guess we ban alcohol?

Someone mention car related deaths in the earlier post and some other stuff, what do you propose we do about those dangers?

Those are just as valid dangers as this. Do we ban everything that is dangerous?

Everything is a problem but why are those being dismiss while this one is not?

So what gets ban and what dangers stay?
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Old 2008-07-22, 01:43   Link #276
Spectacular_Insanity
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rant.exe

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbduece View Post
What do you propose? We buy cigarettes in the black market like weed?
Yes, but by that same logic, we should allow all sorts of illegal drugs. Marijuana, cocaine, heroine, LSD, crystal meth, whatever, just because it's the person's choice? No. People claim that it won't affect others, but where the hell do you think various crimes stem from? When people become addicted to something, more often than not they will do anything to satisfy their cravings for it. That often leads to crime when they can no longer afford it. Things like drugs also make people unproductive members of society.

Again, I find myself completely agreeing with Ledgem. Such thinking falls beautifully into the plans of cigarette companies who could care less about the health of their suckers ehem, "customers" and only about making money. It's pretty obvious the only reason the surgeon general's warning is only there so they don't get sued when people start to get lung cancer, throat cancer, emphysema, or the various other afflictions that are the direct (if not exactly speedy) causes of smoking. Seriously. How much do you think it costs to make a box of cigarrettes? Well, considering all the paper they use, it could be as... 15 cents! Gasp! So much! No wonder they charge you 6 dollars for it. [note the sarcasm]

Frankly, I would support a ban on smoking. Since we already have bans on other illicit substances, why not smoking? Many states in the US already ban smoking in public places. California, for example. Here in Indiana, where I live, I have never had to go into a restaurant and request a nonsmoking section. You know why? There are no restaurants apart from bars that allow smoking. Frankly, I don't find tobacco any more acceptable than marijuana or anything else that you can ignite on fire and inhale.

One more reason smoking is bad: It's bad for the environment. A good example is Switzerland. The people there are extremely environment conscious. In fact, my mom tells me that she sees people turn off their cars at red lights to try to reduce emissions. I don't know if that does anything, but they are, in general, very environmentally aware. Except for one thing: smoking. Just about everyone smokes, and they do it constantly. According to my mom, even walking down the street can sometime be difficult because smoking is so prevailent (thank god I never had to go on business trips with her - I'd die). I bet that they make up for all the emissions that they try to save by smoking, and then some.

But seriously, when you smoke, everyone loses. The smoker, the people around him/her, and the environment. Not to mention it just plain smells like shit. Do people actually like the smell of stuff burning? I'd rather smell rotten eggs. >_<

Edit: Oh yes, and just for emphasis:
Spoiler for list of additives in cigarette smoke:

If you're counting, that was 599 right there. And that's not even the regular chemicals already found in cigarette smoke. (Source of this list: http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nico...ngredients.htm)

If you want to know more, see this link to quitsmoking.about.com:
http://quitsmoking.about.com/od/chem...ette_Smoke.htm
Quote:
The chemicals in cigarettes and cigarette smoke contain poisons, carcinogens and heavy, toxic metals.
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Old 2008-07-22, 01:55   Link #277
Nervous Venus
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Marijuana for medical purposes is legal in California, btw, so you might want to scratch that off your list.
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Old 2008-07-22, 02:00   Link #278
Spectacular_Insanity
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Originally Posted by Nervous Venus View Post
Marijuana for medical purposes is legal in California, btw, so you might want to scratch that off your list.
Tabacco, as far as I am aware, is still banned in public places. When I said "smoking", i was still referring to tobacco, not weed. Marijuana is not really the topic of this thread anyway. I don't have a "list" anyway, other than the additives one. Where did you get this from? Also, medicinal purposes is far different from recreational purposes, which is the main topic (and an important distinction to make).
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Old 2008-07-22, 02:03   Link #279
Vexx
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The only thing I'll insert into this guiness pub chat is that there is a fundamental real difference between chemical addiction and psychological addiction so its a canard to assert equivalency.

Other than that, I'm ambivalent though
1) I'd like not to have to stand anywhere near a cigarette. At least cigars and pipes don't have a toxic trash smell if they're using untainted tobacco. I don't like closed spaces where those fires happen either though.
2) Nicotine is a nasty little addictive agent that people find initially calming (and later can't be entirely calm without it) ... but its the toxic trash of a cigarette that moves it from a bit of entertainment to killing tool.
3) You'd think a reformulated trash-free cigarette would be a boon to tobacco companies (even with nicotine).....
4) They used to have smoking parlors...... like bars but with smokes.... you'd think those would make a comeback.
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Old 2008-07-22, 02:07   Link #280
Nervous Venus
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Spectacular: That wasn't my intention. I apologize if that's what you perceived from my post. I'm simply stating that it's not illegal in certain places for certain purposes and looks odd with the list of other hard drugs that I understand perfectly to be harmful to the human body.

I agree with your point. Carry on.
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