AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > Forum & Site Feedback

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2004-02-02, 22:44   Link #21
mono no aware
...
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
i tallied the votes:

5 for #2 vs. 4 for #1

is the executive council of the gods of animesuki going to deliver its verdict?
mono no aware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-02, 23:47   Link #22
NoSanninWa
Weapon of Mass Discussion
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, USA
Patience. There are some troubling issues that we have to consider before implementing this. For instance, should it be acceptable to post links to rips of japanese games, translated japanese games or translation patches? This is a tricky question and we are busy arguing out all angles of this and a few other such troubling issues.

Once we think we've figured out what sort of forum to make and how it should be policed we will create one. Just so you know, it seems certain that we will have a new forum of some variety. Until then, please pretend that we are a fansubbing group and don't ask when our next episode will be out.

Thank you very much.
__________________

There's not that fine a line between willing suspension of disbelief and something just being stupid.
NoSanninWa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 00:13   Link #23
AG3
Inactive ex-WoW addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
For instance, should it be acceptable to post links to rips of japanese games, translated japanese games or translation patches?
In my humble opinion, patches are ok, games are not. Offering the full games would just draw AnimeSuki closer to that "bunch of pirates" status. There are enough people who think fansubs are outright piracy, offering complete games won't make that any better.

Not that I expect the frequency of fansubbed games to increase enough to cause that much problems...
__________________
AG3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 00:26   Link #24
GipFace
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Janejana.

In my humble opinion, patches are ok, games are not. Offering the full games would just draw AnimeSuki closer to that "bunch of pirates" status. There are enough people who think fansubs are outright piracy, offering complete games won't make that any better.

Not that I expect the frequency of fansubbed games to increase enough to cause that much problems...


But you can use this argument towards fansubs as well. How come groups don't just release a script file for an episode and make you find the raw yourself?

You might say that they are public TV feeds, but a "complete" game is really no different. How about OVAs, then?
GipFace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 00:43   Link #25
AG3
Inactive ex-WoW addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by GipFace
But you can use this argument towards fansubs as well. How come groups don't just release a script file for an episode and make you find the raw yourself?

You might say that they are public TV feeds, but a "complete" game is really no different. How about OVAs, then?
You are completely right, I won't deny that. Indeed, Doddler said much the same thing. That the more ethical thing to do would be to release subtitle patches and let people buy the R2 DVDs to apply them on. And I agree. Fansubbing groups should probably sub only a few episodes of each series too, since that would often be enough to make a thorough judgement whether or not it was worth buying when/if it was licensed. And OVAs aren't broadcasted on TV, so they should refrain from subbing them at all. But the groups don't do that, and I'm in no position to argue with them about it.

While anime series are a dime a dozen, translating games is extremely hard, the amount of work is enormous, both in translating the sheer amount of text and implementing it in the game. Also, a game is a stand-alone product, not a series. Downloading 1 episode of a series can be considered "preview" instead of "piracy", but the same doesn't apply to games. And while 1 episode of an anime lasts roughly 23 minutes, a game is meant to last much longer.

Another thing: While there can be a substantial difference in quality between fansubs and proper DVD releases (less now, with DVD and HDTV sources), there is NO difference in quality between a legit copy of a game and the pirated version. So the incentive to get a legal version is less, at least for people who really care about getting the best quality.
__________________
AG3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 01:10   Link #26
mono no aware
...
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Patience.
naturally ... didn't realize it was so complicated.
mono no aware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 03:46   Link #27
Kaorimoch
Anime Freak
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I'm going to go against the tide and I say that I wouldn't think it would be that good an idea. AnimeSuki is a fansub place and should remain a fansub place. If someone set up a games website and had a games forum, more power to them. The forum page is getting large as it is and adding more topics to it will just make it cumbersome. I mean, we could have a gazillion forums if we wanted and take up more space, but does AnimeSuki want to focus on fansubs (and stay there) or do you want to take off in different directions? Once you have a games forum, should you show games on the front page?

Besides, games forums are full of "where can I get these games for free?" topics.
Kaorimoch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 03:53   Link #28
NoSanninWa
Weapon of Mass Discussion
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, USA
Well said. Those are two more of those issues that we are considering.

Another problem is that Games forums tend to attract warez seekers. Quite frankly we are afraid that we could get a sudden influx of Huns if we add a Games Forum. This is a reason that we are worried about allowing links to anything in such a forum. If no links are available, then the "undesirable element" is unlikely to register. Another potential fix is to restrict the forum to anime games only.

This seems like such a simple request. It is shocking that it full of so many pitfalls and traps.
__________________

There's not that fine a line between willing suspension of disbelief and something just being stupid.
NoSanninWa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 05:15   Link #29
babbito2k
annoying white bat
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Now that the thread is farther along, I have come to the conclusion that I am against a Games forum.

The ero-games idea would have been more limited and easy to define but making a forum here just for those is out of the question.

I think it is hard to define "anime games." Some games are made into anime, some anime are made into games, some games have anime-style characters or something else about them...

Also there are tons of platforms old and new, and people who play games will want tech support columns to help with problems with those, and there will be more threads in the wrong places etc. Playing games in Japanese is tricky, running Japanese computer games on pre-XP operating systems is tricky, running DOS-based games on XP is a nightmare, using emulators to play old ROMs is tricky...

Althought not everyone wants to play old ROMs or legacy games there are anime games which fall into those categories; along with the issues of translation patches and fending off people begging for warez the forum may not want to encourage discussion of these as they are also copyright-related.

People who play games will also want to get into the endless war over copyright issues which alternately smolders and rages across several forums here. They will add the copyright issues of games into an already divisive issue.

I mentioned Peach Princess BBS before and I urge erogames players to at least take a look at this forum; it seems well-run and may be what people are looking for.
babbito2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 07:59   Link #30
Megane
Sleepy Head
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Megane Send a message via MSN to Megane
Eep. When did the subject of games turn into providing links for things, illegal or not? I didn't think the two would be automatically grouped together. I think perhaps some people are getting ahead of themselves. There's quite a lot you can say about games with even mentioning "emulation", "ROM", "patch" or "crack". I thought it would have been nice to start out with a forum where posters can just discuss games, and then if that proves successful, move on to considering posting links to translated games or whatever at a later date.
Megane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 08:35   Link #31
AG3
Inactive ex-WoW addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Age: 35
This is the reason I'm pro-Ero-game forum. A lot of ero-games stem from anime and vice-versa, so a forum for those won't be too broad, and so you will avoid the "anything goes" problem. Sure, AnimeSuki doesn't list hentai, nor does it need to. Discussions of hentai anime is allowed as long as it's kept unexplicit and doesn't list links to downloads, isn't it? The idea of a forum was just to get it more organised, discussions of ero-games can still be started in General Chat/General Anime, I assume. Or like the case of Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, in the series own forum, should it get one.

I'm FOR a seperate forum here (as opposed to finding another one on the web, like peapri) because I "know" some of the people who frequent AnimeSuki. The majority of those are decent, reasonable fellows, which there sadly seems to be a shortage of "out there". Those who wish for a seperate "general games" forum probably want the same thing; discussing games with those they have come to know here. Of course, most haven't given much (if any) thought to the extreme increase in members that an all-games forum might attract, people who join solely to discuss games. Which again means that the quality of the boards will most likely drop substantially.

Well, there's one major advantage of anime not being entirely mainstream: Less people usually means higher average "quality". No offense meant to people who don't like anime, of course.
__________________
AG3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 08:40   Link #32
babbito2k
annoying white bat
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
...I think perhaps some people are getting ahead of themselves...
First you have to make rules about what's OK and what's not and then you have to enforce them. "Getting ahead of yourself" is also known as "anticipating" or "being prepared."
babbito2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 09:25   Link #33
Megane
Sleepy Head
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Megane Send a message via MSN to Megane
Quote:
Originally Posted by babbito2k
First you have to make rules about what's OK and what's not and then you have to enforce them. "Getting ahead of yourself" is also known as "anticipating" or "being prepared."
I was refering to the fact there were considerations going ahead for allowing grey-area content on any potential game forum. I thought it would save everyone a lot of effort if the rules for such a board simply stated "no illegal content" to begin with, and only once such a board proved successful and stable should we begin considering if we should allow links to translated games or translation patches or ROMs or what have you. I felt that it's a line of discussion that can very easily be put aside for the meanwhile, so that it is one less thing to think about when going through the complications of starting a new forum.
Megane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 09:50   Link #34
Lambda
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 35
Allowing links to any sorts of games would fundamentally alter the nature of such a change. Simply adding a games board can be interpreted purely as a service to the AS board community. Members of the community formed by common membership of this forum want to talk about games with others in the community quite a lot, so setting up a specific place for such discussions to happen is useful. As soon as you allow links, you're expanding (albeit only semi-officially) the remit of AnimeSuki.

As to whether such an expansion would be a good thing though, if you imagine a system analogous to anime fansubs, ie. links only to fan-translated unlicensed games, then I would be strongly inclined to welcome it, albeit with the caveats that you might get too many idiots not reading or understanding the rules properly, and such things are very rare in any case. Fan-translating a game may be a big job, but it does happen, and given how poorly known Japanese storytelling-based games are in the West, anything encouraging an expansion in the fan-translaion sector would be good both for the industry and for those who want to be able to buy official translations IMO, in the same way that, no matter what your opinions on its current state, fansubbing was undoubtably good for all concerned in the early days of anime fandom. If AS is to expand in what can be linked to, this is by far the most obvious and consistent place to expand to, and seems both morally and legally safer than its core concern.

On the other hand, I don't think restricting subject topics to anime games would work in practice. In the other forum I regularly attend, we have one board devoted to anime games, but it is a de facto general gaming forum. All the other forums have no problem whatsoever staying strictly on-topic. The distinction between anime games and non-anime games is both too fuzzy for most to apply it consistently and too arbitrary for most to care.
Lambda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 10:14   Link #35
Megane
Sleepy Head
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Megane Send a message via MSN to Megane
Lambda, I couldn't have put it better myself. I agree fully with everything you just said. You've made an interesting point about a fansub analagy for games, and while something of this nature would be both interesting and welcome, I think that we would only complicate things if we were to consider implementing it now. Once (if) we have a functional games forum, then it would be great to discuss the fansubbing of games.
Megane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 10:22   Link #36
NightWish
…Nothing More
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambda
Allowing links ...
You can read the post above I don't need to quote the whole thing ...
::Nods:: On this I believe I am in total agreement with Lambda. (Edit: heh, it would appear Megane is too ^_^; )

I don't think links should be explicitly allowed or disallowed in any potential forum; the current rules are sufficient and debating linking rules detracts from the reason for creating the forum.

In my opinion, the most that would need to change is a clarification of what constitutes illegal beyond the illegality of fansubs; the working assumption is anything that isn't an unlicensed anime fan-sub/dub. I would argue that fan-translated unlicensed games fit into the same remit. I base my opinion of what is acceptable on the "value" added to an item. The translations added to unlicensed anime add value. The translations added to licensed anime (or a plain DVD rip) add no value beyond what is available legally. Like wise a fan-translated version of a game I can't yet get in English would probably (for me) have greater value then the original.

Now, scope: In my opinion limiting the scope of a potential game forum would make such a forum less effective. How we discern an anime game from a none anime-game would either be too restrictive or would cause a high degree of ambiguity resulting in a lot of "noise" (and extra work for the mods) due to closed/deleted threads.
__________________
🐾
…to be bold, to be brave; it is the thinking that the heart can still be saved.
And the darkness can come quick. The danger's in the anger and the hanging on to it.

Last edited by NightWish; 2004-02-03 at 10:26. Reason: Me ... write ... slowly
NightWish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 11:50   Link #37
GipFace
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
My insignificant thoughts.

Now the problem about an ero games forum is that once it's created, what is everyone going to talk about? Let's list the possibilities of topics ...

1. Specific game and its endings
2. The usual 'where to obtain them' silliness
3. "make your own game" and poll topics (a la MegaTokyo)
4. Actual discussion about the industry itself
5. Game fansub projects.

#1 ... There will be a shortage of memorable topics. The most popular anime thread discussion topic in the "fansubs" forum is about speculation for the next episode, or an explanation of the previous episode. Well, there can be no speculation topics in an ero games forum! All you can speculate about is when Key will finally release Clannad.

Virtually no one knows the actual story of any given Japanese game. They only know the ending. They won't know who said what, or any plot subtleties in the text, because hey, that's the most "boring" part of the game! You might as well make a "Japanese only" forum and let the handful of people discuss games there. After all, there's only so many times you can tell people what happens in someone's ending. This syndrome has also plagued hardcore forums like the renai_games message board because a board like this needs people who actually know what they're talking about.

And for any game that hasnt turned into a half-decent anime, the thread will die out faster than Enron stock because no one will understand your blabber ... so you'll have a bunch of 1 or 2 reply messages. For localized games, you can simply go to G-Collection's or Peach Princess' board and you'll probably get more coherent discussion there.

After the first month or so, an ero games forum would simply be a frill that would be semi-revitalized each time a popular game-turned-anime comes along.

#2 and #3 are just teenage lamer madness. #3 has had some results but let's be honest here ... they're nowhere near the quality of the real Japanese ones.

#4 ... Peach Princess' board is full about topics of localized games, and the discussion level on that board isn't too hot. G-Collections' board is better, but the only reason why G-Collection's board is decent is because of one man: Dave Endersak (Peter Payne of PP is nowhere near his level as he is an executive and only cares about the bottom line). Seeing as how Dave worked for PP and G-Collections for quite some time, he actually has an intelligence level higher than most people on those boards and continually gives pages of posts of insight from Japan and excellent views from the localization side (such as why games like Kimi Ga can't be localized). Of course, since there's no one like that around here, it will all be fan-based rumor.

#5 ... No one really gives a hoot about translation projects anyway because you can count on one hand the ones which have actually made progress (whatever did happen to Nandayo's Kimi Ga project, anyway? All talk and smoke?). The people that do care just keep asking when the next "patch" will be released, which in a way is more annoying than the "next episode" question because you don't appreciate how hard it is to fansub a game until you've tried it yourself. No one can offer 'help' because no one wants to ... no one can give you 'tips' because no one has experience. It would be the 'fansub groups' forum without the veteran insight from people like complich8, getfresh, and zalas, and it would just contain a bunch of pet project recruiting topics ("translate Kimi Ga!! translate Tsukihime!!") . ... And that would be a horrible forum.

I am against in every way. What would an ero games forum provide that other boards don't? The "fansubs" and "fansub groups" and even "music" forums in these boards are unique, but people who want a dedicated games forum for all games can simply go to GameFAQs which is the #1 gaming message board in the world. Discussion on localized games can be talked about at G-Collection's and PP's boards. Those who want hardcore discussion can go to something like the renai_games message board, where most of the messages are incomprehensible to the average viewer. If you like those kinds of topics, then more power to you. Most people don't. (url can't be listed due to posting policy ;/)

For the talk that does happen, any minor ero game discussion can be in "general anime". Game translation project discussion can be in "fansubs". No need to water down the categories.

Last edited by GipFace; 2004-02-03 at 12:28.
GipFace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 12:25   Link #38
Kamui4356
Aria Company
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
I don't see the point of a gaming forum at all. As GipFace said, there is no shortage of dedicated gaming forums. If someone wants to talk about a specific game with the people on the AS forums, it can always be posted in general chat. There really aren't enough ero-games, or anime based games in general released outside of Japan to justify seperate boards for either. A general game board is probably a bad idea. All that it would accomplish is attracting a lot of people who are only interested in getting bootleg games. Even if it's clearly said that no links are allowed, it won't stop people from asking. A quick glance at the fansub or general anime sections will confirm this.
__________________
Kamui4356 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 15:38   Link #39
Shii
Afflicted by the vanities
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fish-shape Paumanok
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by GipFace
Now the problem about an ero games forum is that once it's created, what is everyone going to talk about?
I surveyed the first page of the Fansubs forum. The open threads were about:
(what the heck is that underscore doing before my colon? I didn't put it there, that's for sure.)

1 thread generally discussing an anime, which was when I checked it discussing the latest release and speculating about the next episode like GipFace said they all do.
3 threads asking when a new episode would come out.
2 threads about the merits of subbing an R-rated anime.
5 threads generally discussing an anime, not necessarily reviewing an episode. For example:
  • Apologize if this has already been said, but who else here thinks Silk is Nanase?
  • Rumor has it that this anime is funded in part by some people or company from the U.S. at a cost of 13 million yen each.
  • One of my favorite. I have the chinese version novel.
  • [If you don't like this...] You should take a look at Kimi ga Nozomu Eien then. Great drama series.
  • BTW, I seriously don't think the CosPrayers audience is all that large compared to that for Gokusen and Survive.
2 threads speculating about what the end of a series meant.
3 threads discussing whether people liked a new series.
1 dumb thread that the mods forgot to close.
1 series thread that was when I checked it about downloading.

So, GipFace, I argue that since you don't actually know what is discussed in the Fansubs forum, there's even less of a chance that you know what will be discussed in a Games forum.
__________________
Learn to define and spell moé
Shii (formerly known as ashibaka)
Shii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-02-03, 15:49   Link #40
GipFace
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Who said I was generalizing the "fansub" forum? I was generalizing what an ero game forum would bring, because it would be like the "fansub" forum with less meat because no one knows what people are talking about. But they do have their similarities and I did point that out ...

1 thread generally discussing an anime, which was when I checked it discussing the latest release and speculating about the next episode like GipFace said they all do. - See #1.

3 threads asking when a new episode would come out. - See #5.

2 threads about the merits of subbing an R-rated anime. - See #4.

4 threads generally discussing an anime, not necessarily reviewing an episode. For example:
Apologize if this has already been said, but who else here thinks Silk is Nanase?
- See #3, "polls"
Rumor has it that this anime is funded in part by some people or company from the U.S. at a cost of 13 million yen each. - See #4, "fan-based rumor"

One of my favorite. I have the chinese version novel. - See #1, alienation because no one knows what you're talking about.

You should take a look at Kimi ga Nozomu Eien then. Great drama series.. - Replace Kimi Ga with an unknown ero game. See #1, alienation.

2 threads speculating about what the end of a series meant. - #1, "ending"

3 threads discussing whether people liked a new series. - #3, "poll"

1 series thread that was when I checked it about downloading. - #2. Oops! All five of my points were covered!

So, GipFace, I argue that since you don't actually know what is discussed in the Fansubs forum, there's even less of a change you know what will be discussed in a Games forum.
Au contraire. ^_~
GipFace is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.