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Old 2008-08-24, 10:48   Link #81
solomon
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Well lesse, can't think of anything unique on the tube.

Chowder has a nice different design asthetic, other than that nothing to see.

John K. (ren and stimpy guy) is trying to make web toons (like em or not, his early ones were some of the best created in terms of animation skill level, primarily cause they are based off of ACTUAL drawings).

I mean Flash isn't evil, Foster's is done with a computer program but it's at least designed sensibly and dynamically.

How many flash toons quite honestly don't look like they lifted designs from a 6th graders scribbles on his Mead notebook? Flash can look good, but far too many stuff is done with TERRIBLE design. And if you don't have good design you loose all props cause it's impossible to replicate the dynamic expression of either skilled 2d or 3d animation in Flash.
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Old 2008-08-24, 11:44   Link #82
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Well lesse, can't think of anything unique on the tube.
Try 9 Nine.

Kinda sure it isn't american, but it's good enough to warrant a notion.
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Old 2008-08-24, 12:02   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Wordplay View Post
Try 9 Nine.

Kinda sure it isn't american, but it's good enough to warrant a notion.
"Made in UCLA animation workshop" would point towards it being American actually. But no matter where that's made. That was pretty darn good.
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Old 2008-08-24, 12:18   Link #84
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As it stands, I'd argue that American animation has fallen off as my years have gone on. I remember watching so many cartoons as a young boy, and now many or most of those are off the air. Admittedly, some of the old shows I used to watch are still around, but they don't appeal to me any more because I'm not so young as I once was. This, too, could be cause for my lack of interest in the cartoons of today.

However I've noticed that, as some cartoons continue to fall off, others are cropping up with wonderful new approaches and executions to the idea of comedy. The Simpsons had a few years of backslide, but seems to be on the upshot following the release of the movie. Despite my lack of interest in Family Guy, American Dad makes me laugh on a fairly constant basis. And I still find great joy in an episode of Courage the Cowardly Dog or Dexter's Laboratory. And, when all else fails, fail safes like South Park, Futurama, and King of the Hill are always there to bring me out of a cartoon-y rut.

However, in the past couple of years, a cartoon has sprung up that, I feel, trumps all cartoons I saw as a child. It makes me laugh louder and longer than any other cartoon I have ever seen, and it is the epitome of greatness in the name of cartoons. "It" is Invader ZIM. If you have not seen it, I highly suggest it. And if you have seen it, I think you can agree with me, at least in part.
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Old 2008-08-24, 12:45   Link #85
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Invader Zim, is unique, fairly daring and entertaining. I like it and can see why others do.

It is not the epitome of greatness. I have yet to see an american cartoon on mainstream television in the last hmm decade at the very least that is worthy of your hyperbole or that of other Zim fans.

It's best factor was it's rather twisted, edgy nature (in terms of design, gags and story) and an individual sense of style which was so big in the 90s but dried up by the end of the decade in many kids cartoons.. I missed and liked that. But it does nothing in terms of story, design, animation and acting that is epoch making or top of the line or really revolutionary in any sense.
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Old 2008-08-24, 15:00   Link #86
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
No, no articles. Though I can probably find some. Also, you probably notice that Disney hasn't put out a animated movie in ages ( Pixar doesn't count ). Disney has pretty much made / making the move to doing 3d rather than 2d.
Looking things up helps. Since you've apparently missed any news about The Princess and the Frog. (note: I am not making any claims as to its quality, just that Lasseter and Clements are interested in going back to 2D and that this is Disney's first attempt back)
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Old 2008-08-24, 17:48   Link #87
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Quote:
However, in the past couple of years, a cartoon has sprung up that, I feel, trumps all cartoons I saw as a child. It makes me laugh louder and longer than any other cartoon I have ever seen, and it is the epitome of greatness in the name of cartoons. "It" is Invader ZIM. If you have not seen it, I highly suggest it. And if you have seen it, I think you can agree with me, at least in part.
Zim was probably the only American cartoon I've enjoyed since Rocko's Modern Life (I LOVE that show--sadly, I could never take a liking to its creators' newer show, Camp Lazlo). Too bad not many Americans seemed to agree with me, since the show was axed midways towards the end of its first season, IIRC.
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Old 2008-08-24, 18:29   Link #88
Hari Michiru
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I personally prefer Anime over American animation. Not because I love everything about Japan, and Japan is a haven, etc etc.

American animation doesn't have that nice character design that Anime has, and I like to watch something with a continuing plot, than something episodic.
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Old 2008-08-24, 18:51   Link #89
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American animation is really going downhill as of lately. All of the new stuff has been heavily geared towards children. Those that aren't are seriously slipping in quality, like American dad and the new Simpsons. Even many children cartoons are taking a more japanized feel, for example Avatar, Teen Titans, Storm Hawks. I tried, and failed to watch invader zim, while my friends love it. However, we are starting to get more older anime introduced here with less censorship. For example, i dont think death note, a "cartoon" about a mass murderer with a notebook would have been broadcasted years ago.
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Old 2008-08-24, 18:55   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
American animation doesn't have that nice character design that Anime has.
The problem is, it seems whenever Western animators use a style a lot like something you'd see in a animee, they get accused of just ripping the style to make money off it. I've seen this all too often from people who wrote off Avatar. Of course, they also use other styles that look nothing like something you'd see in anime and the look of the characters drives away people with tastes like yours.
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Old 2008-08-24, 19:12   Link #91
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honestly only one thing makes the difference, and thats the character designs

japanese anime just has better designs, rather than fluid american designs, the plots are not that off, its just the overall mindset is different from american and japaese animation

one focuses on primarily kids, while the other is spread out, theyre are alot of "anime" that is akin to american stuff, but its not talked about or focused on, because this is the wrong demographic. you could take chiis adventure, dub it in english, and bingo, i hardly could tell the difference.
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Old 2008-08-24, 19:13   Link #92
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Zim was probably the only American cartoon I've enjoyed since Rocko's Modern Life (I LOVE that show--sadly, I could never take a liking to its creators' newer show, Camp Lazlo). Too bad not many Americans seemed to agree with me, since the show was axed midways towards the end of its first season, IIRC.
Rocko's Modern Life is one of the many shows that I enjoyed as a youngster, that is no longer on television. Another significant one would be Ren and Stimpy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
The problem is, it seems whenever Western animators use a style a lot like something you'd see in a animee, they get accused of just ripping the style to make money off it. I've seen this all too often from people who wrote off Avatar. Of course, they also use other styles that look nothing like something you'd see in anime and the look of the characters drives away people with tastes like yours.
I've noticed this as well. My friends, who enjoy anime, will watch an American cartoon with clear anime influence, and write it off with comments like "They're just ripping off of *insert name of show*'s style," or some such thing. To me, comments like that never made a lot of sense, especially when I consider that so many other new things which draw influence from previously existing material (books, music, movies, etc.) tend to be enjoyed by the fans of said previous material.
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Old 2008-08-24, 19:20   Link #93
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Quote:
honestly only one thing makes the difference, and thats the character designs

japanese anime just has better designs, rather than fluid american designs, the plots are not that off, its just the overall mindset is different from american and japaese animation

one focuses on primarily kids, while the other is spread out, theyre are alot of "anime" that is akin to american stuff, but its not talked about or focused on, because this is the wrong demographic. you could take chiis adventure, dub it in english, and bingo, i hardly could tell the difference.
Well, there is a certain approach to storytelling that you don't usually find in Western media. It'd involve a complex sociological study to really flesh out the details, but if you put an effort you can notice clear contrasts between American and Japanese storytelling. On a very, very rough scale and with a Western viewpoint, Japanese stories tend to humanize antagonists on a level you don't usually see in American media. Of course, that is merely my ignorant, Western-based anecdotal appreciation--as I mentioned earlier, it would take a very serious sociological study to even attempt to grasp any sort of difference on the matter--but I'm sure it's there.
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Old 2008-08-24, 19:22   Link #94
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Well, there is a certain approach to storytelling that you don't usually find in Western media. It'd involve a complex sociological study to really flesh out the details, but if you put an effort you can notice clear contrasts between American and Japanese storytelling. On a very, very rough scale and with a Western viewpoint, Japanese stories tend to humanize antagonists on a level you don't usually see in American media. Of course, that is merely my ignorant, Western-based anecdotal appreciation--as I mentioned earlier, it would take a very serious sociological study to even attempt to grasp any sort of difference on the matter--but I'm sure it's there.
i agree, i think the heart of the difference, the animators just arent "animating" for the same reasons or goals.

i think something even more interesting would be western vs japanese visual novels, were the west actually has some heavy hitters.
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Old 2008-08-24, 19:38   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
To me, comments like that never made a lot of sense, especially when I consider that so many other new things which draw influence from previously existing material (books, music, movies, etc.) tend to be enjoyed by the fans of said previous material.
Hell, wasn't Osamu Tezuka inspired by Disney and other Western animation from back in the day? The big eyes we associate so much with anime were based off the likes of Bambi and Betty Boop, if I remember correctly. I don't see anyone accusing him of "ripping off" Disney.

Not that anyone should, I see nothing wrong it and with letting inspiration and influence come full circle like that, especially when it leads to quality works.
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Old 2008-08-24, 20:13   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
I've noticed this as well. My friends, who enjoy anime, will watch an American cartoon with clear anime influence, and write it off with comments like "They're just ripping off of *insert name of show*'s style," or some such thing. To me, comments like that never made a lot of sense, especially when I consider that so many other new things which draw influence from previously existing material (books, music, movies, etc.) tend to be enjoyed by the fans of said previous material.
I never really understood this, at least half of what is known as the anime "style" (primarily "exaggerated physical features such as large eyes, big hair and elongated limbs...") is derived from American and European animated cinema/TV (Snow White and other Disney titles were especially important as the basis of the anime "style" not to mention early cartoons such as Betty Boop (whose physical appearance Tezuka more or less copied to create the characters for many of his early manga and anime), and later Hannah & Barbara cartoons (especially Tom and Jerry) were extremely beneficial as well). So, an American show cannot really copy that much besides the various physical marks (nosebleeds, anger marks, face faults, etc) or cultural references (hot springs, etc).

That being said, I think that American cartoon shows (for television) have hit a low mark currently due to the fact that no one has figured out how to make a cheap 3-D/CG animated show. The few that have appeared in the past (ReBoot, Transformers: Beast Wars, etc) have all been fairly big shows (for their time and demographics) but very cost ineffective for their time slots. Once American producers create the technology to efficiently make cheap 3-D/CG animation (much the same as Hannah & Barbara did some 50 years ago), then there will be a huge surge of new American animation.


edit: Royal_Devil seems to have made some of the same points.
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Old 2008-08-24, 20:26   Link #97
HiroInazuma
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I was born during the middle of the 90s and saw a lot of those old shows like Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Monster Rancher, Rockos Modern Life, Ren and Stimpy, Tenchi, Dragonball/Z/GT Digimon, Batman, The Adams Family, Power Rangers, Kamen Rider, Shinzo etc...

And I loved those shows and the commercials I could actually tolerate then now they took of the classics like I live in England and Toonami used to actually be that where they show anime like One Piece, Tenchi, DBZ, Outlaw Star, Spawn, Cowboy Beebop but now they changed it to CN Too and took of all the anime you will not see anime on it anymore here instead it is superheros, grim adventures of billy and mandy (don't get me wrong I like Grim Adventures but that was what Cartoon Network and Boomerang was supposed to show).

They replaced Fox Kids my last Anime haven where I watched Digimon, Hamtaro, monster rancher, sailor moon (yes I watched sailor moon don't judge me) then they took that away from me and put in Jetix where they show the same old power rangers just with different powrs and megazords, then they put in those americanized cartoons but late at night they had some anime like Flint the time detective and Shinzo but then they took that away and the closest thing to anime was Ninja School and that disappeared as well.

I hate the new shows they show these days, they are boring and they show the same episode 50 times that week.
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Old 2008-08-24, 20:54   Link #98
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I think American animation - in general - has a lot of qualities which are perhaps unique to the culture in which it was fashioned, shaped & is eventually consumed in. Thinking back when I was a kid watching Disney, American animation has always caught my eye for its pace & action, and its complete-ness. There's almost a 99% chance of a happy conclusion, or at least one that leaves the viewers satisfied.

But in terms of the depth of characters, the artistic styles, the power of the story & the message in the storytelling, a decade worth of watching American cartoon can't really compare to the quiet beauty of some anime. American animation's biggest merit, seems to be immediate (if not passive) entertainment.

They are exceptions, of course. What got me thinking was this movie by the now defunct Fox Animation Studios called Titan A.E, which is (at its best) a kind of halfway house between the traditional action of American animation & the visual power of anime.
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Old 2008-08-24, 21:00   Link #99
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Well, there is a certain approach to storytelling that you don't usually find in Western media. It'd involve a complex sociological study to really flesh out the details, but if you put an effort you can notice clear contrasts between American and Japanese storytelling. On a very, very rough scale and with a Western viewpoint, Japanese stories tend to humanize antagonists on a level you don't usually see in American media. Of course, that is merely my ignorant, Western-based anecdotal appreciation--as I mentioned earlier, it would take a very serious sociological study to even attempt to grasp any sort of difference on the matter--but I'm sure it's there.
Although the US media is moving away like the recent Batman movie "the Black knight" I believe westerners especially the US people idolizes a didactic approach especially when dealing and/or related to kids.
Japanese society never embraced the complete good VS complete evil which is rooted within the Christian dogma. If you think about it, "All MAN ARE CREATED EQUAL" has only been practiced in the literal sense for only 50 years so it is pretty difficult to change something that had been preached for the last 2000 years.

Ironically I think it was even mentioned within the prementioned movie the Black Knight that a true hero can never have a black spot and therefore Batman is not a hero but a guardian of the people who will be hunted down when he fulfill his objective.
So as long as you measure good and/or evil in an absolute scale and not a relative scale, there will always be a difference in approach of creating a character, plot and finally storytelling.

Last edited by Tri-ring; 2008-08-24 at 21:33.
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Old 2008-08-24, 21:29   Link #100
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Royal_Devil View Post
The problem is, it seems whenever Western animators use a style a lot like something you'd see in a animee, they get accused of just ripping the style to make money off it. I've seen this all too often from people who wrote off Avatar. Of course, they also use other styles that look nothing like something you'd see in anime and the look of the characters drives away people with tastes like yours.
Lol, I'm not sure about other people, but I'm cool with Avatar. It's actually good compared to the rest of Western Cartoons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I never really understood this, at least half of what is known as the anime "style" (primarily "exaggerated physical features such as large eyes, big hair and elongated limbs...") is derived from American and European animated cinema/TV (Snow White and other Disney titles were especially important as the basis of the anime "style" not to mention early cartoons such as Betty Boop (whose physical appearance Tezuka more or less copied to create the characters for many of his early manga and anime), and later Hannah & Barbara cartoons (especially Tom and Jerry) were extremely beneficial as well). So, an American show cannot really copy that much besides the various physical marks (nosebleeds, anger marks, face faults, etc) or cultural references (hot springs, etc).

That being said, I think that American cartoon shows (for television) have hit a low mark currently due to the fact that no one has figured out how to make a cheap 3-D/CG animated show. The few that have appeared in the past (ReBoot, Transformers: Beast Wars, etc) have all been fairly big shows (for their time and demographics) but very cost ineffective for their time slots. Once American producers create the technology to efficiently make cheap 3-D/CG animation (much the same as Hannah & Barbara did some 50 years ago), then there will be a huge surge of new American animation.


edit: Royal_Devil seems to have made some of the same points.
I don't know why, but 3-D always turns me off. It's just so...ugly (to be put in a bland way). They always have to move so much, like moving their arms or bopping their head every 5 seconds.
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