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Old 2008-05-23, 11:41   Link #241
Oxtail
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I've been watching the episodes, but I haven't been terribly interested in this series until episode 6. I felt the capers with the 20-Faces gang were a little contrived and silly and I dislike action animes with idealistic pacifism. Luckily the series seems to be taking a turn towards another direction now. Will stick with it to see where it goes for a few more episodes at least.
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Old 2008-05-23, 13:36   Link #242
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...

....
WTF WAS EP 6 ABOUT!?!
Japanese producer: What shall we do for this ep, do you think?
Japanese writers: ZENMETSU SHIYOU!
(ofc if this was already drawn in a manga, then it wouldn't be such a shock to manga readers)

but that was just... just.... TTGL ep 8 times 5 worse?
i'm kinda shaken, I'll admit, the series was 'okay' for me in the last 5 eps and something had to go wrong eventually, (it being japan after all), but that was just... too much...

Well, here's figuring it's all up to chiko now....
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-05-23 at 13:48.
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Old 2008-05-23, 14:08   Link #243
Kaoru Chujo
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Yes, Mystique, the slaughter is in the manga, although with some differences. I suspect this chapter was probably one of the first things the mangaka thought of when he came up with the idea for the story.

As you say, it wasn't as much of a shock to me because I had read the manga. But I actually envy the people who didn't know what was coming, so they could get a fuller impact.

Like Sinestra, I didn't feel as much as I thought I should have. Perhaps that's not just because of having read it before, but also because there is something about this show that keeps one a bit distant. I find that with the manga, too, somehow. But I'm not complaining.

Unlike Oxtail, I have nothing against the combination of adventure with "idealistic pacifism." Although in this case, I think the pacifism is more realistic than idealistic. This is the kind of pacifism that was how Japanese people thought after the war: the feeling of "if war brought us these horrors, then let's have peace."

I don't see any contradiction between NJM's aversion to killing people and his willingness to kill bad guys when necessary. He went through the war, after all. This is realistic pacifism.

And nadare, I can't help being constantly aware that Aya is voicing Chiko, since that's why I started watching this show, but it's good to hear that it's possible to forget. I think this is the real Aya -- Aya given freeedom to present a serious character as she wants. I hope to hear a lot more of her in this mode. She did say in her blog that Chiko would be something people hadn't heard from her before, but it still reminds me somewhat of Layla in NANA. Which is a good thing.

Ep7 is broadcast in 22 hours. I know what's likely to be in this episode and I'm really looking forward to it.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2008-05-23 at 14:24.
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Old 2008-05-23, 14:14   Link #244
SuperKnuckles
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Speaking of pacifism, it's not like Twenty Face's gang is moving entire nations towards pacifism. Now THAT would be unrealistic. It's more like they're doing Robin Hood ventures protecting national treasures everywhere if it means taking it off influential powers and those who'd abuse them.
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Old 2008-05-23, 16:22   Link #245
SeijiSensei
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I found episode six shocking mostly because it seemed out of character with the more lighthearted story that had been presented so far.

Watching this episode made me think about episode four of Allison to Lillia. One might have watched the first few episodes of both shows thinking they were written for a family audience. True, Nijuu Mensou's tale of familial poisoning is no doubt much darker, but that story is quickly put aside once Chiko joins her new "father" for some jolly adventures. After Chiko is surrounded by corpses and left on her own to survive, you realize this isn't really a family adventure any more. Compare that to the resolution of the first story thread in Allison to Lillia.

Like Kaoru Chujo, I'm willing to accept the unrealistic scenes to see where the story is going. Of course the fight on top of the train was unrealistic; this is still a fantasy adventure after all. (If we're going to quibble about realism, how come the authorities don't have airplanes that can shoot down a dirigible?) I also shared Slice of Life's concerns about how the convenient ending to episode five quickly removed any issue of Chiko's ethics from the table. I would frankly have preferred to see her deal more directly with her exploitation of Angie, but I'm guessing we'll see Angie become Chiko's similarly-aged antagonist down the stretch.

Despite these qualms, I'm pretty committed to watching the rest of Nijuu Mensou now, but I doubt Chiko will displace Shion from the top spot in my list of favorite young heroines.

I strongly doubt that anyone whom we didn't see die from multiple bullet wounds is actually among the dearly, or not-so-dearly, departed. I count at least Angie, Nijuu Mensou, Ken, and Tiger (and the detective, of course) in that list.
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Old 2008-05-23, 17:25   Link #246
Dop
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Well, that was unexpectedly tragic...

I don't really think 20faces is dead, probably just used the occasion to slip away into the shadows, possibly connected with the documents from the mayor.

Also, Ken is in the credits wearing an eyepatch, so I'd guess he's in hiding on the train.

If I'd not been hooked on this series already, this episode would have done it. I look forward to seeing how the story continues!
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Old 2008-05-23, 19:22   Link #247
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
...I strongly doubt that anyone whom we didn't see die from multiple bullet wounds is actually among the dearly, or not-so-dearly, departed. I count at least Angie, Nijuu Mensou, Ken, and Tiger (and the detective, of course) in that list.
I'm not at all confident of Angie's survival (swept off the top of a moving train) or Tiger's (seated under the bomb). But Angie is possible. My understanding is that we will be following the manga up to ep12-13, then will go into anime original territory.

By the way, I thought Mizusawa Fumie was good as the voice of Angie. She was Juliet in RomeoxJuliet and Wapourif in Simoun.

I hate the comparison with Allison to Lillia, since I find that show quite poor (although still watchable). Fortunately, though, it was quite a bit more coherent and entertaining in the last two episodes, as you indicate. This show seems a lot more harrowing than that -- especially in the first and sixth episodes, of course, but even the jolly heists were not without their mortal dangers.

I find listening to Mizuki Nana there and Hirano Aya here very interesting. Nana-chan is a pro seiyuu, doing a very good job simulating a type of voice. Aaya's character feels to me like a real person, making it up as she goes along, with a lot more human uncertainty. Polish versus depth, to my ear. But both are creating excellent characters.
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Old 2008-05-23, 19:57   Link #248
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I hate the comparison with Allison to Lillia, since I find that show quite poor (although still watchable).
It hasn't stayed watchable for me.

I only made the comparison because the two shows started off in vaguely similar ways, as tales of adventure with a hint of a serious story. That they've diverged so far in just a few episodes explains why I'm still watching Nijuu Mensou and stopped watching Allison to Lillia.

My opinions about Angie's and Tiger's survival have as much to do with genre conventions as with the events portrayed on screen. They both just have that "villain that never dies until the final epsode" aura about them. If Tiger survived the high-speed collision with a train, he probably managed to jump from the car as the explosion took place, too.
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Old 2008-05-23, 21:01   Link #249
Shiroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
My opinions about Angie's and Tiger's survival have as much to do with genre conventions as with the events portrayed on screen. They both just have that "villain that never dies until the final epsode" aura about them. If Tiger survived the high-speed collision with a train, he probably managed to jump from the car as the explosion took place, too.
I guess the classic Gundam rule comes into this one --- if you didn't see their bodies 'die' as they died, there's a huge chance they'll appear again later.
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Old 2008-05-24, 00:33   Link #250
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
I guess the classic Gundam rule comes into this one --- if you didn't see their bodies 'die' as they died, there's a huge chance they'll appear again later.
I believe not. It's pretty hard to live when you've been shot in the heart and blow yourself up, no?


Given Tiger's reflexes, he could have easily jumped out of the way at the last second from the train crash, but in this particular situation, for Tiger to live is just.....
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Old 2008-05-24, 03:59   Link #251
Shiroth
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I believe not. It's pretty hard to live when you've been shot in the heart and blow yourself up, no?
See, for that you're seeing the body being killed. You didn't understand what i originally said.

I'm talking about Angie. There's at least an 80% chance we'll see her again.
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Last edited by Shiroth; 2008-05-24 at 04:29.
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Old 2008-05-24, 04:37   Link #252
nadare
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Oh please don't resurrect Angie. I mean She flew off a moving train in a blizzard.
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Old 2008-05-24, 04:39   Link #253
Shiroth
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I'm not saying she should survive, i'm just saying the chances that she did are quite high.
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Old 2008-05-24, 10:50   Link #254
Zippicus
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Oh please don't resurrect Angie. I mean She flew off a moving train in a blizzard.
I'd actually be more surprised if she died from falling like 12ft off a relatively slow moving train into the snow. I've had worse wipeouts on the ski slopes and didn't even break any bones
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Old 2008-05-24, 12:23   Link #255
Slice of Life
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Although Tora's death wasn't shown the scene didn't cry 'loophole' to me. As opposed to that of Angie and Twenty Faces. As far as Angie is concerned I wouldn't even go as far as to describe her disappearance as apparent death at all.

So I guess Angie will return rather sooner than later. But for symmetry reasons I assume Twenty Faces will stay 'dead' until the finale maybe. Except if I was wrong about Tora. TF might return earlier than it seems of course; you should look at any new reoccurring male character with suspicion from now on. Same goes for females that don't get an onsen scene.

I'm still watching both Allison and Lilia and DTF and I have no intention to drop one. Although while I think that DTF is the better show I like A+L more. My problems with DTF are still the same as after episode 5: When an anime wants to go down the serious path then my expectations at characters and storyline rise. If A+L was a person it would be a cute child while DTF is more like a teenager yelling at me "I'm an adult already, take me serious, dammit." The latter can beat the child on almost any field but I prefer to have the former around. I hope I'm still making any sense.
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Old 2008-05-24, 12:36   Link #256
molitar
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I really hated this episode.. Everyone being slaughtered and still they don't attack to kill.. Almost all their attacks were to disarm or hurt the enemy but not kill them.. too damn pacifist for me when your being slaughtered! Even Chiko kept trying to save the one that was trying to kill her! If they fought for real half of them might not have died but Oh No! We can't kill anyone even when they are killing us.
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Old 2008-05-24, 13:12   Link #257
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by molitar View Post
I really hated this episode.. Everyone being slaughtered and still they don't attack to kill.. Almost all their attacks were to disarm or hurt the enemy but not kill them.. too damn pacifist for me when your being slaughtered! Even Chiko kept trying to save the one that was trying to kill her! If they fought for real half of them might not have died but Oh No! We can't kill anyone even when they are killing us.
Sorry, I didn't see that. The Chiko reaching for her attacker thing was slightly silly, but morally effective. In every other case, I thought they were attacking to kill. The shooter's arm just happened to intercept Ken's knife. The Skipper tried to kill two people. Muta shot people. NJM shot Tora. No-one else had a gun.

And Slice of Life, you make perfect sense about A+L and DTF -- even though I don't agree. I think this show is deep but ironic. More like a postmodern theorist than a yelling teen. Not that a postmodern theorist would be that congenial, lol. But as I've said before, I think what's important here are the powerful myths: being poisoned by your parents, being surrounded by hidden danger, being rescued by your hero, the princess among the thieves, having your family almost all killed, etc.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2008-05-26 at 12:06.
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Old 2008-05-24, 13:36   Link #258
Tofusensei
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Ep7 is broadcast in 22 hours. I know what's likely to be in this episode and I'm really looking forward to it.
I'm pretty sure there is no episode this week and it will resume on 6/1.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-05-24, 14:42   Link #259
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
I'm pretty sure there is no episode this week and it will resume on 6/1. -Tofu
Ah, yes, sad but true. I checked Shoboi Calendar and so it appears: Kansai TV shows ep6 on Tuesday, and ep7 doesn't show up until next Saturday on Fuji TV, which is taking a break this week. I just looked at the time and not the date when the info went by on-screen, I guess. Life goes on. Thanks for the info.
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Old 2008-05-24, 20:01   Link #260
nadare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molitar View Post
I really hated this episode.. Everyone being slaughtered and still they don't attack to kill.. Almost all their attacks were to disarm or hurt the enemy but not kill them.. too damn pacifist for me when your being slaughtered! Even Chiko kept trying to save the one that was trying to kill her! If they fought for real half of them might not have died but Oh No! We can't kill anyone even when they are killing us.
Of course they couldn't fight back since it was a surprise attack. But they did kill, Skipper killed two people by taking him with them when he jumped off the train. Ken killed the fat guy, but knife isn't one shot one kill unless of course you stab them with a knife and pull it out, he was hit near the heart. The fat guy died after he shot Muta. Muta killed two people. 20 faces killed Tora, he shot him at the heart.

As for Chiko trying to save Angie. Its probably because she was her first friend.
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