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Old 2008-10-04, 01:45   Link #3381
Kamui4356
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An interesting thought occured to me about Palin's comments on expanding the role of the vice president. She said she wants to take a more active role in presiding over the senate right? It almost sounds to me like she invisions the vice presidency evolving into more of a prime minister role, taking a leadership position in the legislature, while still retaining some exective powers.
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Old 2008-10-04, 02:17   Link #3382
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
An interesting thought occured to me about Palin's comments on expanding the role of the vice president. She said she wants to take a more active role in presiding over the senate right? It almost sounds to me like she invisions the vice presidency evolving into more of a prime minister role, taking a leadership position in the legislature, while still retaining some exective powers.
It is a very scary prospect that could possibly lead to complete Presidential control over the entire government. If she, or any other Vice-President, were to make that decision, what is to stop them (or the President from granting the Vice-President) from later deciding that since the Vice-Presidency is "flexible" enough to have some "control" in both the Executive and Legislative Branch the position should also have some partial control over the Judicial branch as well (to be able to sit in on their meetings and voice her or the Executive branches opinion concerning State cases).

The Vice-Presidency has been clearly established within the Constitution, and what Cheney, and now Palin is hinting at (even ignoring the ‘extreme’ possibility I listed above), is completely illegal and quite disgusting.
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Old 2008-10-04, 03:03   Link #3383
yezhanquan
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No way, Palin. The V-P is clearly a backup for the President, not another extension of the President. You're supposed to stay at the background, and use your influence on the President in private, and to be the tie-breaker when needed. No additional powers.
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Old 2008-10-04, 08:30   Link #3384
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I'm by no means an expert on the Congress, but surely there has to be an experienced female Republican in either the senate or house that would have made a better running mate than Sarah Palin?

I'm sorry, but she makes Dubya seem eloquent and she has that braindead smile. It's eerie.
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Old 2008-10-04, 09:02   Link #3385
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by srb View Post
I'm by no means an expert on the Congress, but surely there has to be an experienced female Republican in either the senate or house that would have made a better running mate than Sarah Palin?

I'm sorry, but she makes Dubya seem eloquent and she has that braindead smile. It's eerie.
Bingo. Now I know why she spooked me. I couldn't even put my finger on it, until you did. Thanks.
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Old 2008-10-04, 10:20   Link #3386
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Originally Posted by srb View Post
I'm sorry, but she makes Dubya seem eloquent and she has that braindead smile. It's eerie.
Did you watch the debates between Bush and Kerry? Palin was amazing, especially given her botched interviews. You can argue that the bar was set pretty low for her, but she actually did quite well. I also felt that she had some major stinging points for all of the times that she pointed out how Biden had either disagreed with Obama and/or had agreed and supported McCain. Biden's inability to counter those, combined with his (as I interpreted it) slightly embarrassed and knowing smile, made it seem that she wasn't totally off-base, either. As far as tactics go, attempting to show divisions in the opposing party and to show how they actually supported your side seems like it'd be pretty good, to me.

It still doesn't change the fact that many of her answers flagrantly skirted around the question, and I still dislike many of her views. I'll give credit where it's due, though, and say that she did very well.
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Old 2008-10-04, 11:46   Link #3387
Vexx
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Aye... both Kerry and Gore destroyed Bush on content in their respective debates.... yet people wanted 'someone just like them...' .... which is hilarious if you actually LOOKED at Bush's background (elite wealthy drunken frat boy with serious ego and arrogance issues).
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Old 2008-10-04, 11:56   Link #3388
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Well, which would you rather have? Someone who tells you that even the "elite" aren't above being morons, or someone who reminds you that being born poor is no excuse not to get an education and/or better your lot?
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Old 2008-10-04, 12:53   Link #3389
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Aye... both Kerry and Gore destroyed Bush on content in their respective debates.... yet people wanted 'someone just like them...' .... which is hilarious if you actually LOOKED at Bush's background (elite wealthy drunken frat boy with serious ego and arrogance issues).
Man looks like you already read the movie script "W" (Oliver Stone).

Last edited by mg1942; 2008-10-04 at 13:22.
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Old 2008-10-04, 17:38   Link #3390
Vexx
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Actually... I watched the debates in 2000/2004 ... didn't even know about this movie by Stone til your post (shows you how much commercial tv I watch anymore).

Stone is an idiot in his own manner --- you almost hate to see him take up a cause ("please... stop... 'helping'.... ").
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Old 2008-10-04, 17:53   Link #3391
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Actually... I watched the debates in 2000/2004 ... didn't even know about this movie by Stone til your post (shows you how much commercial tv I watch anymore).

Stone is an idiot in his own manner --- you almost hate to see him take up a cause ("please... stop... 'helping'.... ").
like Ralph Nader, every time i hear him i just wish he would go away.
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Old 2008-10-04, 18:19   Link #3392
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It is a very scary prospect that could possibly lead to complete Presidential control over the entire government.
Well, considering the President pretty much does what he/she is told to do anyway -- I wouldn't worry about it too much.
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Old 2008-10-04, 18:43   Link #3393
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It is a very scary prospect that could possibly lead to complete Presidential control over the entire government. If she, or any other Vice-President, were to make that decision, what is to stop them (or the President from granting the Vice-President) from later deciding that since the Vice-Presidency is "flexible" enough to have some "control" in both the Executive and Legislative Branch the position should also have some partial control over the Judicial branch as well (to be able to sit in on their meetings and voice her or the Executive branches opinion concerning State cases).

The Vice-Presidency has been clearly established within the Constitution, and what Cheney, and now Palin is hinting at (even ignoring the ‘extreme’ possibility I listed above), is completely illegal and quite disgusting.
Your last paragraph (italics mine) is as far as the discussion *should*have to go --- Cheney (and by extension Palin) are completely in some mythical lala-land about the purpose and position of the Vice-President. Fundamentally unconstitutionally and, along with the myth of the "unitary executive", completely contrary to the wishes of the Founding Fathers. Cheney wants a theocratic fascist government - one in which him and his buddies are the primary beneficiaries. Most people would call him functionally insane.
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Old 2008-10-04, 19:05   Link #3394
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
Man looks like you already read the movie script "W" (Oliver Stone).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Actually... I watched the debates in 2000/2004 ... didn't even know about this movie by Stone til your post (shows you how much commercial tv I watch anymore).

Stone is an idiot in his own manner --- you almost hate to see him take up a cause ("please... stop... 'helping'.... ").
Just as an aside, having read some of the (leaked) script I can say that the film is far closer to the deeply flawed almost Shakespearean Nixon than, say, Stone's conspiracy film JFK. The film is composed as a Tragedy, with the titular character trying to succeed (please his father, please his fellow GOP, please his constituent, please himself, etc), but always failing. Quite honestly, Bush comes across more human and humane in the script than at any other time in the past 7-8 years.

Then again, I only read part of the script. It is possible that Josh Brolin, when playing George W., could decide to channel Dick Shawn's character Lorenzo St. DuBois (L.S.D.), and completely ruin any of the script's tragedy.
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Old 2008-10-04, 20:03   Link #3395
yezhanquan
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Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
Well, considering the President pretty much does what he/she is told to do anyway -- I wouldn't worry about it too much.
I think what james0246 is trying to say is that the powers of the executive branch (of the federal government) are growing at the expense of the other branches. Already, the President has a seemingly "unholy" amount of influence over the legislature (House of Reps and the Senate).
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Old 2008-10-04, 20:48   Link #3396
Edgewalker
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Here is more or less how I scored the debate in my head:

BIDEN

-Typical liberal biased distortion of truth. ( -2 points. )

-Capable of speaking for himself and answering questions in a way that shows he actually understands them. ( +5 )

-The whole "Mccain is against Spain" shpeel. I think it was already covered that McCain just had a senior moment and didn't fully understand the question, which is still bad but I doubt he would seriously refuse to sit with Spain. ( -2 )

-Dishonest answer to what he would do if Obama died and he became vice president. A quick look at the voting record would show that while a Biden Admin would still be Democratic and "for the people" it would not be an Obama Admin. ( -2 )

-Far far more facts then Palin gave us. ( +4 )

-Overall ideas are just better and more promising. ( +3 )

-Overprofessional attitude Will probably come across as a "boring old Liberal" who just rolls his mouth to some folk ( -2 )



PALIN

-Surpassed low expectations ( +2 )

-Low expectations don't change the fact that whoever does better should still be the victor ( -1 )

-Managed to maintain herself well, and gave the talking points clearly. ( +1 )

-Amazingly stupid/dishonest fumble of the Gay marriage question, Biden could barely contain himself. ( -3 )

-Didn't actually answer half the questions, nor provide nearly as much facts as Biden did. Is clearly using scripted responses/question dodging ( -3 )

-Same old "Obama voted against troops when he said otherwise" Smear. This one is doubly retarded since Obama already answered why he didn't vote for that ( no timeline = no win ) in the debate with McCain. Repeating bad smears that everyone knows is a bad smear = bad idea. ( -2 )

-Moms, Apple pie ( +2 ) Technically I would personally score this as a negative as its a way to diverge attention from the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about, but for the most part the general population will fall for it.

-Overall I felt she had better Charisma then Biden ( + 2 ) see above

-"I'm one of you guys !" ( +1 ) see above

-Horrible answer to what she would do if McCain died and she became president. While Bidens answer was a distortion of truth, at least he had an answer. ( -3 )

-Overall, bad ideas. And scripted bad ideas to boot. ( -4 )


TOTAL

Biden: 4 points
Palin: negative 8 points


Winner = Biden
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Old 2008-10-04, 21:20   Link #3397
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
-The whole "Mccain is against Spain" shpeel. I think it was already covered that McCain just had a senior moment and didn't fully understand the question, which is still bad but I doubt he would seriously refuse to sit with Spain. ( -2 )
That might be the case, however, a McCain campain spokesman later said that McCain did understand the question and meant what he said about not meeting with the Spanish PM. It's possible that McCain did in fact mean it as well. He's the type of person to hold grudges by most accounts of people who know him, and might be still pissed at the Spanish PM for pulling their troops out of Iraq following the Madrid bombings.
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Old 2008-10-04, 21:27   Link #3398
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Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
-The whole "Mccain is against Spain" shpeel. I think it was already covered that McCain just had a senior moment and didn't fully understand the question, which is still bad but I doubt he would seriously refuse to sit with Spain.
No, McCain's campaign has said that he understood the question and meant what he said.

Obviously it's an insane thing for him to say and makes no sense, but if you assume they're lying when they said he understood the question, the only other interpretation is that McCain would prefer to endanger our relations with a NATO ally (by sticking by something he said by mistake) rather than admit a simple error. That, IMHO, is even worse than what he actually said.
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Old 2008-10-04, 21:30   Link #3399
yezhanquan
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Seriously, McCain's age and Palin's antics do not have my confidence.
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Old 2008-10-04, 22:45   Link #3400
mg1942
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Barack Obama is sure to win after reading this...

and ACORN 's working hard to secure his victory.
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