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Old 2008-05-21, 01:44   Link #861
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I have a slight preference for Obama because I think when the debates with McCain happen, Obama will obliterate him because of his ability to think on his feet - it'll be like Kennedy vs Nixon televised debate in 1960.
Obviously, I am not about to debunk your opinion, or anything silly like that (in fact your line of reasoning mirrors mine greatly). Rather, I simply wanted to comment on this specific inbold point. Kennedy did not win the first televised debate with Nixon. Rather, just judging by the answers and vocal quality (i.e. no stutters or verbal pauses) Nixon was seen as the obvious winner of a tough debate (radio listeners of the time were perplexed to read the headlines the next day indicating that Kennedy had beaten Nixon). Rather, it was due to Nixon's uncomfortable appearance (due in part to a prolonged cold/fever and a perpetual "5 o'clock" shadow mixed with a ruffled t-shirt and jacket and a slumping posture) and Kennedy's immaculate appearnace (he had a golden tan, handsomly dressed, with a strong posture) lead many viewers to believe that Kennedy was the clear winner. Quite literally, a close debate was handed to the better looking candidate . Later, it became a meme, of sorts, that Kennedy throughly defeated Nixon, when in reality it was a close race, and Nixon was the actual "winner". (This was the first indicator as to the power of the television in shaping opinions.)

Now, if you are comparing Obama and McCain to Kennedy and Nixon just bassed on their appearnace, then the comparisson between the two sets is actually quite apt (McCain would wet himself in extasy and then have a heart attack if he was ever compared to the last "good" Republican President ), but if you are actually arguing for Obama's rhetorical skills, then the comparisson does not quite work (for the aforementioned reasons).

edit: damn, someone beat me to the punch.
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Old 2008-05-21, 02:10   Link #862
Vexx
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yeah, apologies for not being clear... as you say - it was the *appearances* that made the difference.
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Old 2008-05-21, 07:34   Link #863
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The term "ethnic" does not equal the term "race" ... you keep switching back and forth in your assertions. There are differences between people due to their cultural upbringing. There are not innate differences because of skin color or other decorative variations, as you seem to keep implying.
No, but there are differences in how they're perceived (wasn't there a TV show where they compared people's reaction to a white man arriving in town, and a same-profile black man doing the same?), and that's going to make all kinds of differences in their lives.
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Old 2008-05-21, 14:50   Link #864
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To say that ethnic differences are form due to ONLY racism is ignorance.
Let's agree on something: The term "racism" indicates making a difference in the attitude towards another person simply because of the color of the skin. If I'm being racist, it means I'm either treating the person better or worse depending on their skin color. The color is something that cannot be denied, that much is true--but to treat a black person like an inferior one IS racism.

Now, historically, whenever different cultures (different ethnicities) came into contact together by living, there were two options: A blend of them, that created a new ethnicity (my example of the cultural blend that makes up most of Latin America, for example) or the segregation of one in the favor of another, more powerful one--which has been traditionally the role relegated to the black people in the Western culture.

As Vexx said, you're mixing culture and ethnicity back and forth without agreeing on what they exactly mean--culture, defined as the background of a group of people that sets more or less their attitude towards the rest of the world, is and is not affected by the color of the skin. The only reason why black slaves and white settlers in the US weren't mixed and integrated into a single culture was simply precisely because the white settlers enslaved them, not because there is something innate in the color of the skin that makes it impossible for two different cultures to blend together.

As I told you, I don't think the color of the skin is deniable--not at all, firstly simply because we see it, and secondly because it helps us explain a great deal of the attitude that the West had over African slaves.

However, we're losing the point of the discussion: What I argued is that it's idiotic to treat your own citizens differently because of the color of their skin, when doing so was what separated them in the first place. And as history has proven now in the US, the Affirmative Action policies only brought about a new kind of separation. No matter what you say, treating your citizens differently because of the color of their skin is racism. A (presumably poor) white person raised on the bosom of the "gangsta" culture will share the gangsta culture with his peers (something similar to what happened to Latin immigrants, who embraced that subculture in the face of the discrimination they were facing)--but his skin color is white, and the whole thing blows itself on your face.

As I said, the only differences a government should do upon its citizens is of money (and the opportunity to make money) and of health-related issues. Making any other kind of distinction is nothing short of discrimination. And if one ethnicity decides to make itself differentiated from the rest ("gangsta" culture)--then you've got a deep problem in your society.

EDIT: Wow, I missed this bit:

Quote:
I'll also close this with a comment: "Science" is as accurate as traditional beliefs. All the belief that science has the answers is the same as the belief that religion has the answers.
Well, I think I'm not going to bother with discussing these issues with you further.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-05-21 at 15:16.
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Old 2008-05-21, 15:18   Link #865
Vexx
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In other news, Oregon primary results show Obama carrying all demographics across incomes, urban/rural, educational level, and race (including our "blue collar white workers"), joining many other primarily "white" states in supporting him.

Basically corporate media attempts to use West Virginia or Kentucky as some kind of national trend don't hold up. Each state has a different story.

There's some interesting observations that the corporate media began ramping up the "omfg, he can't win because he's black" cards after Obama's speech where he spoke of the over-consolidation of the media, the need to restore the Fairness Doctrine, and other issues regarding the public airwaves.

The commercial news in the US is more and more simply a propaganda and manipulation machine for the small group of corporate interests that own them.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2008-05-21 at 15:42.
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Old 2008-05-21, 17:38   Link #866
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Mind linking these observations? Pretty much all I've seen is the media questioning how Obama is going to win states that were heavily in favor of Clinton.
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Old 2008-05-21, 17:38   Link #867
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Well, I think I'm not going to bother with discussing these issues with you further.
*Shrug*

I'm against absolute belief in science, which some people try to have when things don't fit their world view.
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Old 2008-05-21, 18:27   Link #868
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I'm against pitting science with traditional, irrational beliefs. Believe whatever you want, but don't put science on the same level. They're two completely different things. Your lack of recognition for such a thing says loads about your understanding of how science works.

But I digress, and I'll refrain from posting on this issue further.
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Old 2008-05-21, 18:34   Link #869
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I'm against pitting science with traditional, irrational beliefs.
Saying that tradtional beliefs are "irrational" is already a biased view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Believe whatever you want, but don't put science on the same level. They're two completely different things. Your lack of recognition for such a thing says loads about your understanding of how science works.
Yes, science is supposed to be different, but given the politicalization of science for various agendas, I would say that most types of sciences (especially those concerned with genetics) have been corrupted.


Pure science is basically dead now, except for when it concerns physics.



But whatever fits your boat.


I find this map interesting:


Spoiler for Popular Vote Map:
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Old 2008-05-21, 19:18   Link #870
yezhanquan
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What do the gray areas represent?
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Old 2008-05-21, 19:27   Link #871
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
What do the gray areas represent?
Probably haven't voted yet.
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Old 2008-05-21, 19:36   Link #872
Solace
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Ouch. The map I saw earlier wasn't quite as detailed, but it's pretty easy to see the swath of area Clinton took in this one.
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Old 2008-05-21, 19:52   Link #873
Vexx
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Be aware that many of those "swathes" represent sparsely populated rural areas. These sorts of maps are always deceiving. For example, if you've ever been to Texas, the west side of the state is so sparsely populated you can drive a couple of hundred miles and see *one* car. The same goes for Eastern Oregon.

It would be an interested display to take this data and overlay onto a map of total registered voters nationwide and compare which states tend to fall Republican and which are 'swing states' and how they went.

Its almost a shame we can't run Obama, Clinton, and McCain as independent candidates in the fall (3-way race) to see how it plays out.

offtopic: I think the comments made about science are easily refutable... but this isn't the thread for it, and also I really come to animesuki.com for the anime/manga comraderie - not to get into bar fights. Frankly, I cringe when I post in this thread or several of the other General Chat threads.
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Old 2008-05-21, 19:53   Link #874
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Be aware that many of those "swathes" represent sparsely populated rural areas. These sorts of maps are always deceiving. For example, if you've ever been to Texas, the west side of the state is so sparsely populated you can drive a couple of hundred miles and see *one* car. The same goes for Eastern Oregon.
But on the other hand, Clinton also got the densely populated states, so it even outs the difference to Clinton's advantage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its almost a shame we can't run Obama, Clinton, and McCain as independent candidates in the fall (3-way race) to see how it plays out.
That would be interesting..... although I would say McCain would win because of the split in the Democract votes.
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Old 2008-05-21, 23:01   Link #875
nanafan
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shock clinton won in my state, i thought most of the people in missouri were conservatives.
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Old 2008-05-21, 23:03   Link #876
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by nanafan View Post
shock clinton won in my state, i thought most of the people in missouri were conservatives.
Well, I suppose McCain will get Missouri when it's the election.


This is just the Primary.
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Old 2008-05-21, 23:07   Link #877
nanafan
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oh duh i forgot about that...lol but i did vote for the primary i don't know if i really like mccain much.
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Old 2008-05-21, 23:37   Link #878
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I find this map interesting:

Spoiler for Popular Vote Map:
Damn those Great Lakes and the oceans, they're always uncommitted to the last moment!
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Old 2008-05-21, 23:58   Link #879
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanafan View Post
shock clinton won in my state, i thought most of the people in missouri were conservatives.
Obama won Missouri (both the popular vote and the delegates), it was the mass amounts of fairly underpopulated rural areas that went for Clinton, but all of the densly populated cities (KC, STL, and Jeff City) and their suburbs/ all voted almost unamiously for Obama. So, while it was close, Obama still won the state.

Whether Obama would win against McCain is another thing all together, but it is more likely for the current McCain to win against the current Obama. So, Obama needs a large increase in supporters either by converting the so-called silent-majority to his side, or at least convincing them that McCain is not a good choice
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Old 2008-05-22, 00:46   Link #880
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanafan View Post
shock clinton won in my state, i thought most of the people in missouri were conservatives.
The media will tout how Missouri has voted for the winner of the general election for X years straight and has only gotten it wrong once since 19 something something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its almost a shame we can't run Obama, Clinton, and McCain as independent candidates in the fall (3-way race) to see how it plays out.
Not sure if you got it from this link or if this is an idea the pundits are tossing around, but here is one analysis of such a scenario:
Three way simulation
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