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Old 2008-06-05, 23:37   Link #1241
Irenicus
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Nope, it'll be stabler. That's why people are idiots: they believe the world is simple enough to think that if no money is going into the war, it'll all come back into the government's pocket. It doesn't. You have to pay for much more for oil, you have to pay much more for food, you have to pay much more for "Homeland Security". Not only that, you'll have to face a economic rundown by wrecking almost every country's economy, face starvations of hundreds of millions by subsidizing biofuel, and face a more anarchic world. Tell me which world is better.
Oh Jesus. Drop it with this "Obama will destroy the world" apocalypse. He isn't the anti-Christ, for god's sake.

It's getting more and more confusing from my perspective with the constant switch of themes between "Obama isn't anything special; he's just a politician like any other" and "Obama will screw us all (which kind of makes him special no?)" which points increasingly towards something really close to paranoia.

The President isn't half as powerful as you think he is and he's also twice as powerful as you think he is. I don't believe Obama will magically fix America, but destroy it? Yeah...

Your insistence on stability also happens to miss the point that "more of the same" isn't the route to stability, but rather a spiral downward...to the apocalypse you seem to think Mr. Obama will cause.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:37   Link #1242
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
The President isn't half as powerful as you think he is and he's also twice as powerful as you think he is. I don't believe he'll magically fix America, but destroy it? Yeah...
Look at what Bush managed to do.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:37   Link #1243
bayoab
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
You're working under the assumption that McCain will get into a war like Bush, perhaps?


The Cold War ended because of internal problems, so that's irrelevent.
Yes. The country de'jour is currently Iran. McCain is going to go back to waving the big stick at Iran. Iran will go back into "Fine, we'll show you what we can do" mode. And we will watch oil spike yet again because of fears of destabilization.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:39   Link #1244
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Look at what Bush managed to do.
...and because it isn't McCain, but Obama, who's being touted as Bush III and prefers the Bushite approach to foreign policy...

Like I said, yeah...
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:40   Link #1245
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Yes. The country de'jour is currently Iran. McCain is going to go back to waving the big stick at Iran. Iran will go back into "Fine, we'll show you what we can do" mode. And we will watch oil spike yet again because of fears of destabilization.
You know, McCain isn't that much of an idiot to wave a stick at Iran when he has Iraq to deal with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
...and because it isn't McCain, but Obama, who's being touted as Bush III...

Like I said, yeah...
Obama is Wilson + Kennedy + Carter.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:41   Link #1246
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Bush didn't back down with Iran, either. Do you really want a government-paid trip, bags packed with army fatigues and weapons ammunition to Iran that badly? McCain used to be a very respectable Republican because he seemingly did what he felt was right, rather than just falling into line with what the established Republican values are. Wasn't he one of the top officials questioning people about why we screwed up in entering Iraq in the first place, because we couldn't find the WMDs that we thought were there? I have a lot of respect for McCain, especially since a professor that I regard rather highly advised McCain and some other politicians on climate change and had good things to say about him, but his current policies seem to be more of the same and less the free-thinking maverick that he once was.
I'm not interested in the devastations that could potentially arise from some of Obama's plans. I've said it before, but diplomacy is not going to work with Iran. We are not going to be able to simply talk with them. That is why I'd prefer some of the same old crap for the next four years until someone else can go in office. Obama is just going to rock the boat more. Again, I shall mention that I believe he is way too under experienced to handle our current situation. Mccain will keep us stable, Obama would just turn into Carter. And Carter happens to be the worst president we've had in a long time.

@SeedFreedom

I am almost 100% positive that oil prices will skyrocket far higher if Obama gets elected than if Mccain gets elected.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:42   Link #1247
Sokar
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
You know, McCain isn't that much of an idiot to wave a stick at Iran when he has Iraq to deal with.
You don't know McCain at all.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:43   Link #1248
SeedFreedom
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
You know, McCain isn't that much of an idiot to wave a stick at Iran when he has Iraq to deal with.
Umm... yes he is.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:43   Link #1249
bayoab
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Then you might as well let oil prices reach over $300. You made the mess, and you clean it up. You might hate it, but you must if you're going to save yourselves.
While we're at it, let's go through a remind ourselves of a conversation we had about a month ago about the gas tax. McCain wants to repeal the gas tax (18 cents per gallon) despite the fact studies have shown that this will do more harm than good. It will not help bring the price of oil down. It will probably actually increase it because it will temporarily increase demand.

Edit: This post is not saying a windfall tax on the oil companies will help.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:46   Link #1250
qtipbrit
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Originally Posted by SeedFreedom View Post
I'm sorry, but the president has a bigger sh*thole back home then to worry about another country. It was a mistake going in, and we'll never be able to leave without a big mess unless you want to stay for 100 years. but by that time the economy will be so bad compared to china and india they'll be the ones needing foreign aid.
...Turns out the world drastically changes in a hundred years.

As far as I know, the US Economy is still on top of the world, with California itself being higher than the majority of the EU.

I'm not for war, but I'm aware that Obama's policy in Iraq will never work.
On one hand, we'll pull the majority of our troops out of Iraq, which most sensible people want.
However, he plans to do so and still somehow end the conflict "diplomatically", which is... yeah.

I imagine he'll prance down to the middle east and talk things out with Osama (no "Osama is dead" theories, please) himself, especially after learning that he's such a well-to-do guy like his son says he is.

While it would be rather disheartening to have yet another WASP in office after running against both a Black candidate and female candidate, it's not as bad as Obama.

And has there been any jokes about Clinton being Obama's vice president made yet?
This has some amazing potential for lulz.

EDIT: And Obama would probably have a jolly time discussing the Holocaust with Ahmadinejad.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:47   Link #1251
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
While we're at it, let's go through a remind ourselves of a conversation we had about a month ago about the gas tax. McCain wants to repeal the gas tax (18 cents per gallon) despite the fact studies have shown that this will do more harm than good. It will not help bring the price of oil down. It will probably actually increase it because it will temporarily increase demand.
And would this be worse than destablizing the Middle East?

It's always better chosing the lesser of two evils.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:47   Link #1252
bayoab
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
You know, McCain isn't that much of an idiot to wave a stick at Iran when he has Iraq to deal with.
Looks like he already is waving the stick to me. There is no other reason to mention one side attacking the other trivial sanctions except to wave a stick.

Last edited by bayoab; 2008-06-05 at 23:57. Reason: Misread
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:48   Link #1253
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Obama is Wilson + Kennedy + Carter.
Because normal diplomacy instead of gunboat diplomacy = Wilson + Kennedy + Carter.

@Reckoner

Diplomacy > War.

Evidence: The last eight years.

I don't want to be drafted to visit the ruins of Persopolis, sorry. I love ancient Achaemenid ruins as any other guy, but I'd rather not be visiting it with a gun in my hands and a uniform on my back. And an even more screwed up oil market back at home; because Iraq was a total triumph for US oil prices...
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:49   Link #1254
Sokar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Nope, it'll be stabler. That's why people are idiots: they believe the world is simple enough to think that if no money is going into the war, it'll all come back into the government's pocket. It doesn't. You have to pay for much more for oil, you have to pay much more for food, you have to pay much more for "Homeland Security". Not only that, you'll have to face a economic rundown by wrecking almost every country's economy, face starvations of hundreds of millions by subsidizing biofuel, and face a more anarchic world. Tell me which world is better.


Oh, and this is under the assumption that Obama does manage to get the troops out.
You don't know anything about economics do you? The Iraq War isn't the major reason why oil prices are so high, it's all about demand from China and India. Same thing with food prices, it's not about biofuels, it's about demand from China and India. The economy is going to bounce back because of continued interest rate cuts and economy stimulation packages.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:50   Link #1255
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qtipbrit92 View Post
And has there been any jokes about Clinton being Obama's vice president made yet?
This has some amazing potential for lulz.
Given the current situation, I find that unlikely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Looks like he already is waving the stick to me. There is no other reason to mention one side attacking the other except to wave a stick.
THAT'S waving a stick? Jeez, are governments that paranoid?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokar View Post
You don't know anything about economics do you? The Iraq War isn't the major reason why oil prices are so high, it's all about demand from China and India. Same thing with food prices, it's not about biofuels, it's about demand from China and India. The economy is going to bounce back because of continued interest rate cuts and a economy stimulation packages.
The current oil price is high because of demands, but what are you going to do when destabilization causes it to jack up higher? Also, what about the higher food prices from the biofuel subsidies?


PS: I'm a political economy major. I'm not just an average ignorant person who doesn't know how the world works.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:55   Link #1256
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Because normal diplomacy instead of gunboat diplomacy = Wilson + Kennedy + Carter.

@Reckoner

Diplomacy > War.

Evidence: The last eight years.

I don't want to be drafted to visit the ruins of Persopolis, sorry. I love ancient Achaemenid ruins as any other guy, but I'd rather not be visiting it with a gun in my hands and a uniform on my back. And an even more screwed up oil market back at home; because Iraq was a total triumph for US oil prices...
Are you going to tell me that Carter did a good job? Carter's 4 years are much worst than Bush's 8 years... And Obama = Carter. (My opinion of course)

And, my god, people stop throwing out this draft idea. The U.S. would only ever draft again if we were being attacked on home soil. This is a foreign war, it would never happen.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:55   Link #1257
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Diplomacy > War.
Only when the diplomacy is realistic, not idealistic.
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Old 2008-06-05, 23:58   Link #1258
Sokar
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
The current oil price is high because of demands, but what are you going to do when destabilization cause it to jack up higher?


PS: I'm a political economy major. I'm not just an average ignorant person who doesn't know how the world works.
And you think destablization will cause oil prices to go up to $300 per barrel? Even an destablized Iraq will continue to pump out oil, right now Iraq isn't stable, but production is back to pre-war levels. Even if Iraq gets splintered into a dozen different areas controlled by warlords it will still pump out oil, because they need the money.

PS: Your predictions of doom shows that you don't know how the world works.
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Old 2008-06-06, 00:00   Link #1259
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokar View Post
And you think destablization will cause oil prices to go up to $300 per barrel? Even an destablized Iraq will continue to pump out oil, right now Iraq isn't stable, but production is back to pre-war levels. Even if Iraq gets splintered into a dozen different areas controlled by warlords it will still pump out oil, because they need the money.

PS: Your predictions of doom shows that you don't know how the world works.
Yes, but how are you going to get the oil out in the midst of the chaos? Fly it out? Carry it on camels? Send in thousands of troops to protect the oil pipes?


And frankly, it's not prediction of "doom", it's prediction of realism.
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Old 2008-06-06, 00:05   Link #1260
Sokar
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Yes, but how are you going to get the oil out in the midst of the chaos? Fly it out? Carry it on camels?


And frankly, it's not predictions of "doom", it's predictions of realism.
They will do what they have to, they have things like cars and trucks you know. Even now oil is being smuggle from Iraq to Iran. Even if not a single drop of oil comes out of Iraq, the prices will not reach $300 per barrel. At least you dropped the biofuel argument, that's an improvement.

You predictions are ludicrous because you actually think Obama will do every single thing he says he will do. That shows you don't know anything about politics. Realistic predictions will say that Obama will keep significant amounts of American troops in Iraq because the conditions on the ground dictate it.
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