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Old 2008-01-09, 14:25   Link #21
ArchMageZeratuL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
i do agree that it sounds interesting. didn't want to diss it so badly. it might work out, but it will be hard to balance out. i'd advise you to gather some experienced subbers and try to brainstorm a bit.
It's what I'm doing right now, and thanks for your contribution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
i just meant that personally i wouldn't be able to use it very well in menclave, since we usually do things at different hours, and some people are too reluctant to try out new things.
Yes, it's easy to see that most fansubbers are deadly afraid of having to change their ways... So many still use SSA4... even for TYPESETTING.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
@dj_terk, letting multiple QCs edit the script is a no-no, imho.
if it's just 1 excellent QC, that's fine. but good QCs are extremely rare.
as i see it, this function would only be useful to get TL/Timing/Editing done quicker.
Well, in my point of view, the QC isn't supposed to EDIT the script, just to find potential issues in it.

In this system, one or more QCs would simply flag several areas of the video as "in need of attention of a ###". After that, the assigned relevant person would be informed of the need to check it, and decide to either dismiss it or edit it himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
@amz
"The system won't allow people to change each other's work. This will be constrained so that you are only capable of editing what you are SUPPOSED to edit.
Of course, people being able to work at the same time is the biggest issue."
well, tls, editors, and timers all have to have access to the same things really.
even if a tl approved a line, he might see the need to change it later, or do a second run.
i mean, the main "function" would be the possibility to work simultaneously, which is also its biggest fault. otherwise it's just the same as SVN
Well, that's why there'll be a countdown time before changes are dispatched to the next stage of the pipeline. If the translator wants to change something before the editor claimed that line to edit on it (which will be an automated process), he can still do it. However, if the editor already claimed it, the translator would perhaps be able to flag the line as "in need of revision", or edit it directly after the editor has released it, and before the QC claims it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
not to mention that if you use this to get work done faster, you might end up doing it slower. not everybody works at the same rate, so in the end, some people
would have to end up wasting more time keeping an eye on the changes than they would originally.
Yes, I've mentioned this in the original post: the program could wait for sufficient lines to be waiting for you, then notify you of that so you can keep working.

You could optimize work for two different goals: for very fast release, even if it means that some people will have to continually wait for new lines, or for minimal work, in which case the program buffers them and gives you a batch to work on as appropriate.

An interesting side-effect of this is that since translation is probably the slowest part in the pipeline, everyone else would have extra time to reflect on their changes, therefore preventing rushing and maybe increasing the quality of release.

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I don't know about YOUR grandma, but mine gets very upset if you even move an icon on her desktop... let alone *gasp* install some software...
Well, my grandmother doesn't even know how to use a computer, so I guess I don't know. :P
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Old 2008-01-09, 14:37   Link #22
ScR3WiEuS
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"An interesting side-effect of this is that since translation is probably the slowest part in the pipeline, everyone else would have extra time to reflect on their changes, therefore preventing rushing and maybe increasing the quality of release.
"
oh well, it might prove interesting.
i'll be waiting to see how it turns out :x who knows, might even adopt it
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Old 2008-01-09, 14:40   Link #23
ArchMageZeratuL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
oh well, it might prove interesting.
i'll be waiting to see how it turns out :x who knows, might even adopt it
Well, don't hold your breath, even if this is done, it'll probably take a good while.
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Old 2008-01-09, 15:12   Link #24
ScR3WiEuS
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ppsshht, lazy brazilians. they disgust me.
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Old 2008-01-09, 15:39   Link #25
Daiz
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ArchMageZeratuL, have you ever used a program called MoonEdit?

It's basically an online notepad where many people can edit the same file on server in real time.

Wikipedia has an image for it:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...5/MoonEdit.png
As you can see, you can see people's nicknames on the right and their edit color, and everyone's text can be recognized from the background color. I think you could get some good ideas from this.

My suggestions:
I think you shouldn't have a "let's assign roles for everyone" kind of thing... You should just let everyone edit, if everyone knows what they are supposed to do beforehand they probably won't do stuff outside their work anyway.

Another thing is to give every user colors, like in MoonEdit. You could for example have the BG of line show the color of the person who edited it last, or even better, show what was edited, like exactly in MoonEdit. This way people could easily see changes other people have done.

Make a chat for users editing the current file. Best place would probably be right next to the actual editing window, so people could comment on what they have done, or discuss what they should do... for example, if you have multiple timers and a script, you could simply tell timers what lines to time, and every could get to work.

If you make it completely real-time like I suggested, a good feature would be autosave to HDD, so if somebody messes up bigtime you could just copy stuff from previous version that you saved on HDD. Or maybe just have a history for every change... MoonEdit has this, but I sure as hell don't know how to actually make it. But if you had this, you could make an option to revert any line back to any state it was in before.

I have actually though about "online multiuser subbing program could be really handy" before, nice to see someone else having interest on the subject too.
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Old 2008-01-09, 15:50   Link #26
ScR3WiEuS
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isn't... that... just like irc :O
multiplayer notepad
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Old 2008-01-09, 15:52   Link #27
ArchMageZeratuL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
ArchMageZeratuL, have you ever used a program called MoonEdit?

It's basically an online notepad where many people can edit the same file on server in real time.

Wikipedia has an image for it:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...5/MoonEdit.png
As you can see, you can see people's nicknames on the right and their edit color, and everyone's text can be recognized from the background color. I think you could get some good ideas from this.
No, I haven't used it, but I've heard of it. See the first few replies, another similar program is also mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
My suggestions:
I think you shouldn't have a "let's assign roles for everyone" kind of thing... You should just let everyone edit, if everyone knows what they are supposed to do beforehand they probably won't do stuff outside their work anyway.
That WOULD be easier to do, but I'm not sure if the process would be better that way... For example, you couldn't have a system that notifies you after x lines are waiting for your pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
Another thing is to give every user colors, like in MoonEdit. You could for example have the BG of line show the color of the person who edited it last, or even better, show what was edited, like exactly in MoonEdit. This way people could easily see changes other people have done.
Yes, as I've mentioned in some other post, an idea would be to mark lines based on their status relative to your position on the pipeline. I also thought of having another field in the grid showing who is currently assigned to/editing each line.

Your proposal, though, would be quite different, so, yes, having each field of each line saying who last edited it might be better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
Make a chat for users editing the current file. Best place would probably be right next to the actual editing window, so people could comment on what they have done, or discuss what they should do... for example, if you have multiple timers and a script, you could simply tell timers what lines to time, and every could get to work.
The chat is a given, as discussed above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
If you make it completely real-time like I suggested, a good feature would be autosave to HDD, so if somebody messes up bigtime you could just copy stuff from previous version that you saved on HDD. Or maybe just have a history for every change... MoonEdit has this, but I sure as hell don't know how to actually make it. But if you had this, you could make an option to revert any line back to any state it was in before.
Yes, this stuff is also mentioned in the original idea. Even if somebody crashed, though, they should be able to retrieve the current (or previous) version(s) from the server... "repository".

Either way, with your idea, we would still need to atomically "lock" lines, at least, different parts of them. This would be easier if you could constrain yourself to only editing some areas.

Either way, this needs more discussion, the pros and cons of each suggested method. Yours is certainly easier to implement, but would it be better to use?
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Old 2008-01-09, 16:02   Link #28
Daiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #aegisub
<Daiz> I'd say you can get the most out of multiuser features if it's exactly like the it's offline except it's multiple users at the same time
<Daiz> I think it could be best if it showed exactly what people have edited, so if for example timer edits the times, his/her color is only shown on the time values he/she edited, and not on the line itself that was written/edited by the translator/editor
<Daiz> this would be better than just changing the whole line bg color, because you could see exactly what other people have done/changed
<Daiz> I've used MoonEdit to plan some stuff before with my friends
<Daiz> it's proven to be pretty useful when you can see exactly what the others have edited/changed
<Daiz> maybe you could show where users are editing next to the nickname, like for example, on the right is the userlist, you could have "AMZ (202)" 202 being the line number where your cursor is
<Daiz> you could also show the user cursor or some other way to visually see what line the other users are editing/writing if the line is showing on your screen
<Daiz> like how MoonEdit shows user cursors
Just posting what I wrote on IRC about the subject.

EDIT: I made a quick interface proposal on what the online editing could look like:

In this example, we three would have already discussed who does what (I translate, AMZ edits and TheFluff times) and all the changes made by individual users can be seen on the edited parts, like here you can see with just a quick glance what TheFluff has already timed (lines 1 and 2), what AMZ has edited (lines 1-3) and what I have written (everything else).

Anyway, I'd say that user-specific colors is a must, since it would probably be the best and fastest way to recognize what everyone has done.

Last edited by Daiz; 2008-01-09 at 17:54.
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Old 2008-01-09, 17:25   Link #29
jfs
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Just read through the thread...

I think what most people have already described, or at least what they're thinking of, is that every line, or every part of a line, apart from the current data has a history of changes per field, along with who did it, as well as a number of "what needs to be done" flags. When all "needs to be done" flags are clear, the line is considered "signed off" and can go into the release. A revision of a line can also instead of an actual change to the line information be a "mark as need retiming" or whatever, accompanied by a comment on why it needs that. Then the line is flagged for "needs timing" again and the timer is told to review the line. If a line is marked as "needs TL check", after that TL check is done it's automatically sent to editing again, and after that for another TC. Ie. complete process management in that sense. Perhaps such processes should be defineable, but that might be overkill.

Yeah, it's enterprisey!
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Old 2008-01-09, 18:55   Link #30
p-static
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I personally think that roles are overmanaged in what everybody's describing. All that stuff could be better handled at the personal level ("hey, whoever, don't touch my stuff until I say I'm done"), rather than at the program level. Even if the rules are completely configurable, like amz was suggesting, I think that by far the most common configuration would be to have all the restrictions off - and in that case, why implement it in the first place.
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Old 2008-01-09, 20:43   Link #31
ArchMageZeratuL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p-static View Post
I personally think that roles are overmanaged in what everybody's describing. All that stuff could be better handled at the personal level ("hey, whoever, don't touch my stuff until I say I'm done"), rather than at the program level. Even if the rules are completely configurable, like amz was suggesting, I think that by far the most common configuration would be to have all the restrictions off - and in that case, why implement it in the first place.
I'm not so sure - any time spent by humans coordinating themselves, when it could be done automatically, is time wasted.

Also, we don't want to make a system where mistakes and conflicts are likely to creep in.
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Old 2008-01-09, 23:36   Link #32
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But the thing is, the time it takes for people to coordinate themselves is pretty negligible. And the people doing the subs can easily use the same restrictions that the software would, if the lines can be tagged individually based on their status, without actually being restricted.
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Old 2008-01-10, 01:00   Link #33
DryFire
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Don't assume everyone using it will be intelligent or capable of following instructions (if you'd like proof read other threads in this forum).

It would also be nice to be able to set break points. Say you have 3 timers and the tl has finished translation. s/he could divide the script between the 3 via break points which would give the approximate time of the line. That way if the tl likes to have everything tl'd before passing it on (or whatever) the rest could be done in parallel. This could also be useful if there's a long span without convo so the timer can just skip it.
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Old 2008-01-10, 01:33   Link #34
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How about this for a radical proposal (20% serious)?

Implement a scoring system. Basically, everyone in the group is a "player", and you get points based off of speed and accuracy (the qcers job is to find errors, so they are sort of like competing to be the best "judge")... Might be tricky to balance the point system properly for different roles... Hell, you could even put a simple stats based system for players so as they continue to sub they level up their skills... maybe a trophy room

People have mentioned before fansubbing is like a MMORPG to them, so why not ACTUALLY make a (not really massive) MORPG for the process itself? It would encourage speed, and if implemented right, accuracy.
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Old 2008-01-10, 06:56   Link #35
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Moonedit LOL

that might be fun to play with in Aegis, but idk how useful.

there needs to be a quartermaster button who can finalize any changes in case of an editing dispute, w
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Old 2008-01-10, 07:40   Link #36
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This idea isn't completely new... It comes in handy for programmer's perspective, i.e. subprogramming where people work in parts of the codes simultaneously. For CPU jobs, it's been called multithreading where the threads are submitted in parallel and then the data generated from the threads is combined/used/manipulated at a latter time. But, we're no computers, we're human beings. :/ When writing a textbook, several authors can write parts of the book or chapter at the same time without interfering with another. However, this only applies when they fully complete that one section of writings. Surely, they can submit parts of the document for editing, but the complete ideas have been presented in that section being submitted. This isn't quite the same as subbing, as those chapters are completely independent from other chapters. For chapters/sections depending on other chapters/sections, they are still done sequentially, nonetheless.

However, I don't think/find there is one single fansubber who is willing to do one or three lines and submit them to the server, not to mention some translations or editing require one to trace back in time. Most people would lose motivations when subdividing jobs like that in free-fansubbing; I know I will. In addition, most of the lines if not all depend upon other lines, making one-to-one line (or several lines) subbing almost impossible.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-01-10 at 07:57.
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Old 2008-01-10, 07:57   Link #37
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*pats pichu* I think these guys are just stuck in their own little dream world discussing stuff that will never be put to code, much less to practical use.

@AMZ: Weren't you the one to propose that dreamy AS5 spec some time ago? How is that project working out?
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Old 2008-01-10, 07:59   Link #38
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daiz's interface is nice. I understood it immediately.

Another interface feature that would be nice would be to give the ability to see what section of the text other users are looking at. In reality, just showing what the other users have selected would be close enough.

One feature that would be nice is the ability to send or stream data from users to each other. For example, a 50kbit video stream and 30kbit audio stream could be quickly sent to all users so they have an idea what they are subbing while the real thing could come down in the background.

Would suggesting the chat backend run as a real IRC server and voicechat be integrated be amiss?
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Old 2008-01-10, 08:21   Link #39
dj_tjerk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
However, I don't think/find there is one single fansubber who is willing to do one or three lines and submit them to the server, not to mention some translations or editing require one to trace back in time. Most people would lose motivations when subdividing jobs like that in free-fansubbing; I know I will. In addition, most of the lines if not all depend upon other lines, making one-to-one line (or several lines) subbing almost impossible.
It's all up to the group, and I think the timer should be right behind the TL, and the editting goes after that. TL can still fix lines then even when they're timed.. And with the optional 'flush' button you can also flush after 20 lines.. or 100 lines for that matter.
Also .. nothing seems more fun to me than working on one same script file with multiple people.. It's like a game
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Old 2008-01-10, 08:35   Link #40
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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
*pats pichu* I think these guys are just stuck in their own little dream world discussing stuff that will never be put to code, much less to practical use.
Don't know about put to code, but an svn type system would be nice for even the slowest of subbers.
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