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Old 2008-01-10, 09:03   Link #41
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_tjerk View Post
It's all up to the group, and I think the timer should be right behind the TL, and the editting goes after that. TL can still fix lines then even when they're timed.. And with the optional 'flush' button you can also flush after 20 lines.. or 100 lines for that matter.
Also .. nothing seems more fun to me than working on one same script file with multiple people.. It's like a game
This should have been the process:

TL->Edit1->Timing/Styling->Edit2->QC
(stick TLC somewhere between TL and Edit2)

But that order really depends in the availability of the staff as well as what does the staff want (i.e., some editors like to have the scripts timed whilst others don't)

I did try to translate (obviously from Chinese to English) and time the subtitles at the same, but I get distracted quite easily when I change back and forth like that. Translating and timing from audio may be easier, but I will still get distracted when doing so heh. I believe psychology still plays an important role in how well we perform, as we are only human beings.
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Old 2008-01-10, 11:08   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
The fansubbing community is already being perceived as a tool (even moreso than before), now you want to make it a part of an actual tool?

All hail efficiency and progress!
This troll ("fansubbing is dying") is already old, you need to find a new and better one to replace the old tried and trusted "where are your ethics". 3/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
*pats pichu* I think these guys are just stuck in their own little dream world discussing stuff that will never be put to code, much less to practical use.

@AMZ: Weren't you the one to propose that dreamy AS5 spec some time ago? How is that project working out?
Not nearly subtle enough, the fake use of smilies makes it way too obvious. 1/10
Thank you for playing but I think you need to try again.


As for SVN, that is always useful, I know of several groups that uses actual SVN repositories for all their scripts. It can be very convenient to have version control sometimes instead of fucking around with -v2 -v3 -RC -QC -F scripts and "old scripts" folders.
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Old 2008-01-10, 11:26   Link #43
ArchMageZeratuL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
*pats pichu* I think these guys are just stuck in their own little dream world discussing stuff that will never be put to code, much less to practical use.

@AMZ: Weren't you the one to propose that dreamy AS5 spec some time ago? How is that project working out?
Actually, equinox started implementing it in asa before he decided to go MIA. My job is just to support the format once something can render it, I never proposed to write a renderer myself.

So troll better.

You know something else people told me wouldn't come to light? A visual typesetting program with every sort of tool for every sort of fansubbing job. Oh, wait...

[EDIT]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
However, I don't think/find there is one single fansubber who is willing to do one or three lines and submit them to the server, not to mention some translations or editing require one to trace back in time. Most people would lose motivations when subdividing jobs like that in free-fansubbing; I know I will. In addition, most of the lines if not all depend upon other lines, making one-to-one line (or several lines) subbing almost impossible.
I'm not sure how much patience you had to read through the thread, but those aren't real issues - submitting of lines is automatic, either way (either after some time, or all in realtime, depending on the proposal), and would be handled all from the same program interface.
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Old 2008-01-10, 12:06   Link #44
tun
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This whole idea doesn't benefit speedsubbers in any way. They can do the entire process by themselves within 24 hours without the whole elaborate system that you described in your original post. When it comes down to it, that whole system is basically a proposed solution to all of the various problems that "quality" groups usually face (e.g.: translator disappears, timer is being a lazy bum, etc.). You're basically trying to obtain speedsubber speed with "quality" subber quality. Let's also not forget that fansubbers generally want recognition for their work, or have attachment to the fansub group that they work for. In theory, the idea is great. But I don't see who would bother putting up the effort to create, organize, and maintain such a massive endeavor. And I'm equally unsure if fansubbers would bite at such a system.
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Old 2008-01-10, 13:38   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
This whole idea doesn't benefit speedsubbers in any way. They can do the entire process by themselves within 24 hours without the whole elaborate system that you described in your original post.
Yes, but I'm proposing a 1 hour turn-around between everyone getting the raw and the final script being done and QCed. This is easily obtainable with this system, provided that each step only takes around 40 minutes (not many translators can translate that fast, but every other step should be possible within that range). You can't do THAT with traditional methods.

This "endeavour" isn't as massive as you might think it is - after the 2.10 reformation of Aegisub, that we're going to do anything, this sort of thing won't be too hard to implement.

Therefore I'm willing to do it (in due time) if enough people show interest - and it seems that many people here do.

Don't worry about how hard it would be to implement - the real question here is: were it available, would you use it?
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Old 2008-01-10, 14:09   Link #46
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL View Post
Don't worry about how hard it would be to implement - the real question here is: were it available, would you use it?
I'll say as much that I'd personally have to give it a test drive first, and then decide based on the outcome. The idea is interesting, but it's something new, and I doubt that you could expect people jumping on it with big enthusiasm from the very start.

But I see your point of concern (I think, anyway), coding something that few might end up using...
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Old 2008-01-10, 14:12   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
I'll say as much that I'd personally have to give it a test drive first, and then decide based on the outcome. The idea is interesting, but it's something new, and I doubt that you could expect people jumping on it with big enthusiasm from the very start.

But I see your point of concern, coding something that few might end up using...
Well, now that I think about it, this doesn't need to be done in one go.

First, I could code a simple client-server system just to import and export subtitles, and share them... something like SVN, but integrated into the program.

That's something that many people might want to use, and would take care of the hardest part of all, coding the client-server architecture, logging in, security, etc.

From that, it's not difficult to make Aegisub like MoonEdit, and support a simple chat.

Then, finally, depending on how that goes, we can implement a more sophisticated system, with all the other advanced features mentioned here.

I'll discuss this with jfs and possibly start coding after 2.10. Now that I have a lot of free time, I hope to be able to finish 2.00 soon...
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Old 2008-01-10, 14:28   Link #48
tun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL View Post
Don't worry about how hard it would be to implement - the real question here is: were it available, would you use it?
Nope. That 1 hour estimate you threw out there is really unreasonable, even with the kind of system you described. You're assuming that every person doing every stage of the process is perfect and can do their job with the efficiency of robots. There's nothing wrong with the assembly line method of fansubbing as it currently exists; most fansub groups just don't have the best people doing each step, or simply don't have people doing the job in the first place (the more common problem). Your system is forcing people to cater around the system, rather than the system catering to the people who use it.

I admire the idealism though. You're at least trying to find solutions to the problems with a lot of fansub groups these days, instead of adding to them.
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Old 2008-01-10, 14:37   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
Nope. That 1 hour estimate you threw out there is really unreasonable, even with the kind of system you described. You're assuming that every person doing every stage of the process is perfect and can do their job with the efficiency of robots. There's nothing wrong with the assembly line method of fansubbing as it currently exists; most fansub groups just don't have the best people doing each step, or simply don't have people doing the job in the first place (the more common problem).
Yes, I AM assuming an ideal team of highly experienced people who do their job fast and rarely need to review their work - I know of many such people, but they are not exactly common.

I'm just saying that it'd be POSSIBLE to finish quality subtitles in 1 hour with this method. I didn't say that ANYONE could do it. I apologize if I wasn't clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
Your system is forcing people to cater around the system, rather than the system catering to the people who use it.
I don't understand what you mean by this - I don't see how the system is forcing anyone to work differently. Although the goals of ideal work flow might be set, the details are flexible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
I admire the idealism though. You're at least trying to find solutions to the problems with a lot of fansub groups these days, instead of adding to them.
Indeed, it is my goal to provide as many solutions as possible to the community - but nobody is forced to adopt any of them. I know that there are several people that use every single feature in Aegisub, even the more obscure tools such as the styling assistant, translation assistant, and Dansolo's kanji timer... So I never felt that any of my work was wasted.

I posted this thread already expecting major resistance from this community (that I perceive as a bit too much on the conservative side...), but I got more positive feedback than I hoped for. This is encouraging.
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Old 2008-01-10, 14:52   Link #50
tun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL View Post
I don't understand what you mean by this - I don't see how the system is forcing anyone to work differently. Although the goals of ideal work flow might be set, the details are flexible.
In order to achieve the maximum potential of this system, it seems to me like every single member of the staff has to be available at the exact same time. I just don't feel like it takes into consideration the real life situations of all of the group members. I can speak for #m.3.3.w in that we have actively participating staff members in 4 different continents but we can still crank out a fansub in 6 hours (or at least have a script done in about 3 hours). Considering the restrictions of time zone differences, this system really doesn't offer any more of an advantage. Also, every fansub group is different, people have a different combination of skills and preferences in the type of fansub work they do. In our case, our translator also does the timing at the same time, so that wouldn't work with this system. Do you understand what I mean by fitting the system now?
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Old 2008-01-10, 14:53   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL View Post
Yes, I AM assuming an ideal team of highly experienced people who do their job fast and rarely need to review their work - I know of many such people, but they are not exactly common.
I've actually done some serious thinking about what the true minimum time for speedsubbing would be, and I believe it is perfectly achievable BY ONESELF.

Here's the flow:

Step 1: Live in Japan, own a HD hard drive recorder.
Step 2: Watch the show as it airs, while recording it. Take translation notes if needed, look up things during commercial break. (30 minutes)
Step 3: Set up raw encode from HD capture <- these can be extremely high quality with good equipment, since some simply capture the mpeg stream from the digital broadcast... at least that's what mine does (although I haven't figured out how to get around the copy encryption)).
Step 4: During h264 encoding, translate, time and edit the show. Time as you translate for speed's sake. Do an edit/timing check pass.
Step 5: Since the raw encoding takes about 2-3 hours for 1280x720 with a medium speed Core2duo and medium settings, you have plenty of time to fix up the scripts, which can be timed based on the original mpeg capture file. Don't worry about fine-timing since we'll be softsubbing anyway.

When the raw encode is done, mux in your script and create and seed a torrent somewhere.

Total time from airing, ~4 hours, less if you release SD and can translate really fast and/or use xvid instead of h264 (the fastest I've ever translated a show was 45 minutes... but I'm not the fastest out there. I average more like 2 hours).

I believe that that's really the theoretical limit, since encoding from the tv capture is always going to have to be done (either by you or the capper), and that takes longer than translation, timing, typesetting, editing, and qcing, if done as fast as theoretically possible.

Not that I recommend anyone try this... It's possible, but I can't imagine it would make a particularly good sub.
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Old 2008-01-10, 15:01   Link #52
ArchMageZeratuL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
In order to achieve the maximum potential of this system, it seems to me like every single member of the staff has to be available at the exact same time. I just don't feel like it takes into consideration the real life situations of all of the group members. I can speak for #m.3.3.w in that we have actively participating staff members in 4 different continents but we can still crank out a fansub in 6 hours (or at least have a script done in about 3 hours). Considering the restrictions of time zone differences, this system really doesn't offer any more of an advantage. Also, every fansub group is different, people have a different combination of skills and preferences in the type of fansub work they do. In our case, our translator also does the timing at the same time, so that wouldn't work with this system. Do you understand what I mean by fitting the system now?
You don't need to FULLY ADHERE to the system - you just use it whenever possible to speed up the process, if you are worried about that.

Yes, sometimes group members aren't available at the same time - but sometimes they are. Sometimes the same person does more than one job - but often they don't. The system gives you the POTENTIAL to do things faster, if you are willing/allowed to stick to some basic rules.

Either way, it won't make anything SLOWER or HARDER - this is a primary concern of mine. No feature should ever make any task harder.


@ Quarkboy - well, yes, that's a different story, and I've thought about the same thing before, too.

But since most speedsubbers will wait for a raw and work on that, and sometimes not even re-encode it, their method is fully compatible with what I propose.
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Old 2008-01-10, 15:10   Link #53
tun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL View Post
You don't need to FULLY ADHERE to the system - you just use it whenever possible to speed up the process, if you are worried about that.

Yes, sometimes group members aren't available at the same time - but sometimes they are. Sometimes the same person does more than one job - but often they don't. The system gives you the POTENTIAL to do things faster, if you are willing/allowed to stick to some basic rules.

Either way, it won't make anything SLOWER or HARDER - this is a primary concern of mine. No feature should ever make any task harder.


@ Quarkboy - well, yes, that's a different story, and I've thought about the same thing before, too.

But since most speedsubbers will wait for a raw and work on that, and sometimes not even re-encode it, their method is fully compatible with what I propose.
Well, this comes back to what I said about fitting the system. If most groups can't take advantage of the system, it probably isn't worth the effort. Your system itself is fine, but it can't solve the real problem: not all fansubbers are made equal. Efficiency isn't so much the problem as is people simply being too lazy to do the work/real life issues preventing them/school taking up their time, or not having the staff member needed to do an essential part of the work (usually TL or TLC).
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Old 2008-01-10, 15:15   Link #54
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While it's true that being able to finish as quickly as possible depends on everybody being available at the same time, in practice collaborative systems like this still work pretty well even if there's one person who's not there - the script will sit around until they get back. Even in the worst case, where no two people are around at the same time, you still end up better off than before, because you can skip all the nonsense with uploading/downloading scripts to/from an ftp.
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Old 2008-01-10, 15:37   Link #55
False Dawn
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Amz, please please please make the QC tool you were talking about. It doesn't even need to be collaborative -- just the idea that I can click and pause when I see a mistake and the program will ask me what is wrong and stick it into notepad or some similar program... I'd use something like that for every QC ever if that was available.

Your big plan is a good idea in theory too. My only concerns are things like timing sweeps (I'm the type of timer who times an episode and then does a time sweep at the end) and when translations are awkward and can have multiple meanings that you may not decide on a "final" translation until the context is made clearer later in the episode -- for situations like that, I can see the line-by-line technique being a hindrance more than a help. But yes, this would certainly speed up the subbing process.
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Old 2008-01-10, 16:18   Link #56
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Here's a possibly useful alternative way of doing it:
Make a compatible extension to the ASS format using some kind of metadata lines, one line before each Dialogue/Comment line. Such a metadata line contains simple flags about what needs attention on that line and then a textual comment detailing it.
A line without such a metadata line would be considered "finished", not needing attention.

You could then tell Aegisub that every line you touch must have some flags re-set. You could also tell it to perhaps filter the lines shown such that only lines with certain flags show. (Eg. an editor could tell it to only show lines marked for "needs editing".)
Then check those scripts into SVN and you're already set. (And maybe having a function in Aegisub to detect if the file changes on disk and then reload or perhaps even merge in changes.)


Also, about video, the a server should probably be able to serve up a real low bitrate video stream for overall overview, and then be able to serve up high quality still frames for TS work. The video server could easily be a separate application I guess.
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Old 2008-01-10, 16:56   Link #57
ArchMageZeratuL
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@ jfs: I'm not a huge fan of those extension hacks to the ASS format... Perhaps we could have another file alongside with the .ass with that data?

Or maybe even have Aegisub keep a database itself, associating such data with the files, and syncing the database with the server.
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Old 2008-01-10, 21:37   Link #58
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL View Post
I'm not sure how much patience you had to read through the thread, but those aren't real issues - submitting of lines is automatic, either way (either after some time, or all in realtime, depending on the proposal), and would be handled all from the same program interface.
Yes, I only skimmed through this thread, and that's only one simple example to support the claim I made. Don't get me wrong: I never saw the interface or implementation being an issue, which is why I didn't mention anything in regards to this. Nevertheless, the real issue is that most fansubbers, I find, do work better alone for the completeness and quality of work; at a latter post, I recall mentioning, "psychology"; it's really a mind-game.
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Old 2008-01-10, 21:53   Link #59
jfs
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I still think the appeal of parallel work isn't as high as that of a basic problematic-lines tracking system, ie. simply a work tracker, who has done something, what was changed and who need to do what. Some kind of project management application, though subtitle line-level marking would really do wonders. In that case a web application could actually work, maybe just for QC.
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Old 2008-01-11, 04:48   Link #60
Zero1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
How about this for a radical proposal (20% serious)?

Implement a scoring system. Basically, everyone in the group is a "player", and you get points based off of speed and accuracy (the qcers job is to find errors, so they are sort of like competing to be the best "judge")... Might be tricky to balance the point system properly for different roles... Hell, you could even put a simple stats based system for players so as they continue to sub they level up their skills... maybe a trophy room

People have mentioned before fansubbing is like a MMORPG to them, so why not ACTUALLY make a (not really massive) MORPG for the process itself? It would encourage speed, and if implemented right, accuracy.
Quarkboy, what does the scouter say about his QC level?
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