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Old 2008-01-12, 17:49   Link #81
martino
makes no files now
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by sangofe View Post
What is the "spectrum", and how do I "see" it?
In Aegisub you can enable it by clicking the "Spectrum analyzer mode" button when you have the audio loaded.
Spoiler for picture:


And what it simply does is display the audio frequency (instead of amplitude - waveform) on the y-axis also the higher up it will be then so will the frequency of that specific sound, with dark blue/black parts being silence and white being the strongest in terms of amplitude.

EDIT: So why is this such a big plus, the frequency bit? Well, each sound, or syllable, however that you'd like to think of it, has its own distinct frequency. So if you know what to look for, you have just given yourself much more information that you might need for completing your task instead of looking at just the amplitude, which itself is fine, but it just doesn't contain as much information (if that's a good way of putting it).
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Last edited by martino; 2008-01-12 at 18:38.
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Old 2008-01-12, 19:11   Link #82
silverfire
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The vertical scaling is actually useful with the spectrum analyzer as well. In particularly noisy scenes, you can actually lower the vertical zoom and vocals still stick out clearly. If it's perfectly silent except for vocals, you can crank it up to make sure you don't miss the tail end of an 'n' sound or cut a bit of the leading part of a 's' 'ch' or 'ts' sound.

One feature request I already made to jfs was to add an option to add a maximum frequency to see, since there's already an option for minimum frequency. That'd let you isolate the vocal range and tell between speakers a lot more clearly than you can do right now.
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Old 2008-01-12, 22:26   Link #83
ArchMageZeratuL
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[EDIT] Nevermind, already replied.
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Old 2008-01-13, 03:58   Link #84
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
How do you treat lines that a translator leaves to go back to later? This happens all the time.
I'd assume the same way you treat them now...TL leaves in a note saying "not sure about this i'll come back to it later". Wow... that was an extremely complex idea wasn't it? Are you always this shortsighted Tofusensei?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
How do you treat when the translator goes back to change something that is made apparent by something that happens later in the episode? This happens all the time.
Again...the same way it is done now. Go back and edit it.... How are you imagining the vaporware in question would prevent someone from doing this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
Why on earth would you begin QC until the script is finalized? That's the dumbest thing I've heard this entire thread.
I don't recall reading anywhere that the completed lines couldn't be QC'd before the script was finalized. Nor did I state that anywhere. If what I've read from AMZ/jfs's ideas are right, lines could be tagged as completed per job. Meaning half the script could have been QC'd already while the other half is still undergoing timing fixes/TLC/etc. Are you making sense or just saying stupid things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
I've been in a physical room with an entire fansubbing team before and did EXACTLY what you are describing and it provided very little actual speed benefit (1 hour or less).
How did you do exactly what I was describing? I was describing amz's vaporware. Are you implying someone has already coded similar software explicitly for fansubbing and it didn't work? Or you attempted to do the same in some paper/pencil fashion?

There are plenty of reasons why it might not have saved that much time for you. Perhaps the people in the room weren't that motivated, or whoever was the "project lead" was doing a horrible job. I can think of tons of reasons why it did not work for you :P, but one thing remains true. Just because you had a bad experience (or multiple), does not make it a universal rule for everyone else in the world. Sorry, but I'm going to have to say you should go back to your cave and fap to your exorbitant amount of experience you think we should worship. Not everyone was created equal, there are other people in the world that are faster, smarter, and better than you and the people you have worked with. No reason to hold everyone else back with your random ideas because it didn't work for you . Plz to troll harder because I have no idea how those reasons were supposed to be any sort of trolling/criticism that made sense.

Last edited by Nicholi; 2008-01-13 at 04:10.
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Old 2008-01-13, 04:22   Link #85
Quarkboy
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In my opinion the fastest timer is actually the translator, hands down.

Why? Because the translator already has to "find" every line of dialog just to translate it. Having two different people inherently forces work to get redone needlessly.

As an example, I can (on average) translate an episode of Yes! Pretty Cure 5 in 90 minutes. If I time it at the same time, it takes me about 120 minutes.
Timing from scratch takes me 45-60, so you can see that there's a savings of nearly 30 minutes just from doing both at once.

Of course most translators won't be bothered to learn how to time, but hey, if you're talking efficiency, there really is an inherent problem with having the translator and timer be two different people.
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Old 2008-01-13, 10:10   Link #86
ScR3WiEuS
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but then again, fansubbing has never been about efficiency. can't really understand those that strive for efficiency rather than enjoyment.
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Old 2008-01-13, 10:49   Link #87
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Efficiency and enjoyment are not mutually exclusive. You'd think increased efficiency (to some degree) would bring greater enjoyment.
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Old 2008-01-13, 10:57   Link #88
Quarkboy
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Let's see... I can have an episode fully timed and translated in 2 hours...

Or I can have an episode translated and be trying desperately to contact my timer who was SUPPOSED to be online right now but hasn't logged in to the channel in 3 days and who's online on AIM but has an away message that says "If you're Quarkboy I'm not here" while my typesetter is whining to me that he HAS to get the script by 5 or he won't be able to work on it for like, weeks and....

Yeah, sounds like a lot of fun to me .
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Old 2008-01-13, 11:34   Link #89
cyth
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Personally, I'd love to be able to time faster, and silverfire's method makes sense and is tempting (albeit heavily error-prone without a QC pass, I imagine). The thing is though, every approach and every tool comes with a new learning curve. I remember when stuff like Sabbu and Aegisub started coming out I was excited to try them all out, but as the tools changed (this was especially true for Sabbu) new learning curves were presented. While others were sticking to SSA and brought their timing well under an hour (no spectral analysis!), I was trying out these new tools that didn't help me much in gaining speed. Eventually I gave up on the idea of a "better" tool when I learned you can become faster by sticking to the way you're most comfortable with (and this is how I got my audio timing pass down to 35 mins).

Being faster equals more free time that you can spend socializing with your group and leechers, or just doing whatever you please for that matter. Looking at it this way, efficiency--or simply speediness--is a good thing. But at the same time, I can't shake off the creeping sensation that amz's proposal to develop new tools and present new methods will bring new concerns, such as a centralized community. Quarkboy had the idea to take this venture toward web applications. With bandwidth prices dropping and copyright laws failing surely nicosubbing is just around the corner. We are already seeing a new breed of fansubbers catering directly to YouTube, Veoh, or CrunchyRoll, and I'm not so sure anyone of us is too thrilled over them.
No, I'm not trying to go against progress (weak trolls were weak), I'm just trying to point out that going "mainstream" may not be such a good idea. For those of us that like the relative coziness of the community this will be devastating, then again I'm sure we'll find something else to do if it ever comes to that.
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Old 2008-01-13, 14:48   Link #90
ScR3WiEuS
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i didn't mean it in such a negative way.
but like, in my own experience, every turn towards efficiency came with its toll on enjoyment.
sometimes it's just fun discussing edits in the channel etc, having people comment, making jokes, etc. of course not everybody has the time.
i personally couldn't work in a group where everything is scheduled to deliver the quickest release possible. feels a bit like a machine, not a hobby.
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Old 2008-01-13, 22:12   Link #91
Access
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I think you are trying to solve the wrong problem. Sure the tool might decrease the time it takes to complete a single episode, from start to finish, but it doesn't reduce the amount of time ("man-hours") that people actually spend working on that episode. Think about it this way, which is preferable. Let's say it normally takes 18 hours to sub an episode and 18 man-hours.

1) subbing an episode in 18 hours, using 12 man-hours (6 hours dead time).

2) subbing an episode in 12 hours, using 18 man-hours (6 hours overlapped time).

I think most groups would choose (1) "productivity enhancement", over (2) "time compression". This is what the tools should focus on.

What's really important is translator productivity. If the tool makes a translator spend even half an hour longer, it's a waste. Even if the tool didn't create any inefficiencies, no group would have exclusive access so the end result would just be that things came out a few hours sooner.

Understanding the (real) problem you are trying to solve is the first step in creating a solution.
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Old 2008-01-14, 10:37   Link #92
Quarkboy
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This is a bit off-topic, I know... But this thought experiment just occurred to me:

Say a certain group with very large download numbers for a very popular show decided to run a bit of an experiment:

They set up a streaming site, basically like niconico douga: People can post subtitle translations and times (very basic) in real time as the video is being played, and also vote positive or negative on lines that are already there...

If they were to upload a raw to this site and release it, and maybe 40,000 people end up streaming it: How decent of a translation would you end up with in the end? Horrible flaming piles of poo? A guess-work half-assed terribly edited pos? A script about as good as a crappy speedsubber? Maybe even something decent?
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Old 2008-01-14, 10:58   Link #93
dj_tjerk
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Internet is known for it's similarity to thermodynamics... you bet it'll end up in chaos. Though I wonder how wikipedia is keeping it 'organized', prolly with money..
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Old 2008-01-14, 12:29   Link #94
ScR3WiEuS
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what makes a shitty translator shitty, isn't the fact that he makes some mistakes, it's the fact that he thinks he's right. if everybody who thinks they know how to tl were free to change stuff, it would get ugly.
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Old 2008-01-14, 13:08   Link #95
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
angry rant against me
Nicholi, I'd like to challenge you to a speed fansub-off someday, it'd be fun!

-Tofu
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Old 2008-01-14, 13:16   Link #96
ArchMageZeratuL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
what makes a shitty translator shitty, isn't the fact that he makes some mistakes, it's the fact that he thinks he's right. if everybody who thinks they know how to tl were free to change stuff, it would get ugly.
I'm not sure about that, that is the very reason why Wikipedia is often (paradoxically enough) far more accurate than websites about a specific subject - people who write the latter believe that they are right, whereas on Wikipedia everyone can dispute and engage in discussions about the truth of anything written. If done in a civilized way, this works very well.
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Old 2008-01-14, 14:06   Link #97
ScR3WiEuS
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"If done in a civilized way, this works very well."

exactly. now, good luck with that >.<;
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Old 2008-01-14, 18:48   Link #98
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Nicholi, I'd like to challenge you to a speed fansub-off someday, it'd be fun!

-Tofu
Oh? But how will you handle it when the translator has to change something later? Worries! WORRIES!!! @_@
Plz to work harder on your troll replies.
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Old 2008-01-14, 18:54   Link #99
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Worries! WORRIES!!! @_@

The pressure's getting to him already
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Old 2008-01-14, 19:25   Link #100
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Oh? But how will you handle it when the translator has to change something later? Worries! WORRIES!!! @_@
Plz to work harder on your troll replies.
I honestly wasn't trolling. It makes sense to let the translator 100% FINISH a translation before the editor begins. A lot of times I will go back and rewrite sections of the script that can affect how later lines should be worded. I see this as a major flaw for this "parallel subbing" idea.

My main point was, it sounds like a lot of work that will result in a lower quality script in marginally faster time than the traditional methods (saving maybe 1 hour at most). Please try and refute this point, I am waiting and not trolling. I am all for change, but I see this as solving a problem that doesn't exist.

-Tofu
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