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View Poll Results: Byukugan or sharingan?
Byukugan 407 35.51%
Sharingan 647 56.46%
Neither 92 8.03%
Voters: 1146. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-11-19, 16:05   Link #2121
OtseisRagnarok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha View Post
I get what you are saying, but we haven't seen (atleast I don't remember anny) bloodlines that evolve, so we can't assume what happens and what doesn't.
Well, we could consider Haku's... It sarted as water-control, and escalated into the Crystal Ice mirrors... But I'm not sure if that could be counted.
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Old 2008-11-20, 03:27   Link #2122
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
But usually when you say a certain ability evolves into something else, it’s basically just an upgraded version of the original. I can understand why Itachi’s sharingan could evolve into tsukuyomi since sharingan can wield certain genjutsus. But amaterasu is a bit off for me. Where did that incredible fire power come from? It’s not an illusion-type ability nor a copying one. Amaterasu’s flames are physical, they’re not a form of illusion nor a manifestation of any sort. I don’t get it. Madara’s mangekyou sharingan I don’t understand either. How can sharingan evolve into that? Kishimoto didn’t really elaborate on that piece of information. If anyone here can enlighten me regarding this subject then please do, perhaps I missed something.
Spoiler for Mangekyo Sharingan:


That's my take on MS after reading the story and watching the anime. Makes sense, at least to me.
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Old 2008-11-20, 03:43   Link #2123
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by Killer Bee View Post
Spoiler for Mangekyo Sharingan:


That's my take on MS after reading the story and watching the anime. Makes sense, at least to me.

Hmmm, that's a good analysis. I'm actually beginning to understand it.

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Old 2008-11-20, 04:44   Link #2124
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I do not say this often, but I think you are looking into this situation too deeply .

Spoiler for Mangekyo Sharingan:


As to the general discussion of this thread, it seems very unlikely that an average Byakugan-user could defeat an average Sharingan-user.

(I wonder when Hunter will delete or move my post .)
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Old 2008-11-20, 06:06   Link #2125
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Spoiler for MS:

Last edited by Kenshin_Uchiha; 2008-11-20 at 06:24.
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Old 2008-11-20, 06:23   Link #2126
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
As to the general discussion of this thread, it seems very unlikely that an average Byakugan-user could defeat an average Sharingan-user.
The average sharingan user has no advantages over a byakugan user. The average sharingan user only has genjutsu, which would have little effect over a Hyuuga, and copy cat abilities, which would be useless against a kekkei genkai.

It should be noted that the average byakugan, which belongs to the branch house, is only average because of politics, not because of his god given talent or lack thereof. Neji was considered a genius only because of what he accomplished DESPITE being held back by Hyuuga politics and the segregation of the houses. If all were allowed to grow naturally like Uchiha were, then all Hyuuga would know the soft fist as all Uchiha knew fire elemental jutsu.

If we're talking typical user here, it would have to go to the Uchiha because the typical Hyuuga hold their own clan members back for their own reasons. If we're talking about what would happen if that weren't so I'd give it to the Hyuuga who are more skilled and formidable until the Uchiha start throwing in the MS and EMS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenshin Uchiha
You are getting somewhere with that killer bee. The genjutsu on the eye does involve space/time controll, I don't think it is another dimension though, I believe it's something like oro's inner dimension. Madara uses space/time manipulation to teleport, kakashi uses it to teleport something to other dimensions. About amaterasu I highly doubt that it is something Itachi stored, since sasuke had it using his own eye to. What we don't know and would greatly help would be what powers does the ms give? I myself think amaterasu and tsukuyomi are the standard abilities for the MS. Then each user will, using the time/space manipulation skill, develop his own unique technique. And the EMS should grant you your power, that of your brothers eyes, of course the not going blind thing is cool, and controll over the biju.
That's just assumption no real proof.
Spoiler for Origin of Amaterasu:

Last edited by Killer Bee; 2008-11-20 at 07:02.
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Old 2008-11-20, 06:28   Link #2127
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But generally the sof fist style isn't that strong by itself, look at the power hinata had, I'm pretty sure the sharingan's prediction ability could see the attacks coming, neji is an exception.
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Old 2008-11-20, 07:24   Link #2128
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Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha View Post
But generally the sof fist style isn't that strong by itself, look at the power hinata had, I'm pretty sure the sharingan's prediction ability could see the attacks coming, neji is an exception.
Hinata was going toe to toe with Neji, who was probably one of the strongest genin in the exams. Don't confuse Hinata's shyness with weakness. The soft fist combined with the byakugan is extremely powerful.

And as I pointed out, Neji is only considered a genius because of his immense development despite the road blocks that the Main Branch of Hyuuga put in his way. He may have a stronger potential, but he isn't the strongest of the Hyuuga yet either.

Kishi puposely didn't let us see what someone like Hinata could do against Sasuke. Sasuke usually loses until he's had experience with a fighter and lets his sharingan get an eyeful of what the person can do, and it would have ruined the story if Sasuke lost at that point. Keep in mind also that with soft fist you don't have to actually make contact to close points. What would Sasuke's sharingan have him do? He doesn't understand soft fist, and even if he memorizes the movements he won't know to block them because the strikes don't cause pain until its already too late.

Once his sharingan is sealed off, Sasuke's going to have big problems.
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Old 2008-11-20, 07:53   Link #2129
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Spoiler for MS and stuff:
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Old 2008-11-20, 08:46   Link #2130
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Old 2008-11-20, 09:14   Link #2131
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Old 2008-11-20, 09:25   Link #2132
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
(I wonder when Hunter will delete or move my post .)
Speculations about the Sharingan belong to this thread so there is no reason for that.

-Anyway, it is stated in the Databook that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are techniques that have been known within the Uchiha clan (which doesn't mean however all MS users were able to use them both) and are not jutsu specific to Itachi.
Spoiler:


Quote:
It should be noted that the average byakugan, which belongs to the branch house, is only average because of politics, not because of his god given talent or lack thereof. Neji was considered a genius only because of what he accomplished DESPITE being held back by Hyuuga politics and the segregation of the houses.
This is entirely false, Neji was called a genius because he is vastly supperior to others Hyuga both in skills and inherited power. A regular Hyuga cannot see the Tenkentsu to begin with and they wouldn't have the skill to use them effectively in battle even if they could. That is why Neji was called a genius among others things.

-Hinata didn't go toe to toe against Neji. He played with her, sealed her chakra without her even noticing and did so while keeping secret the real depth of his skills. Hinata was weak, her 7 years old sister was better than her which is why her father wanted Hinta out.
I'm not even going to comment about Hinata being a match for Sasuke. When biais comes so far there is nothing more to say and it's off topic anyway.
Oh and the Gentle Fist does require contact if only a gentle one, hence the name.
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Old 2008-11-20, 09:38   Link #2133
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
But with sharingan it’s different. We see very little complementing jutsus for it, except for the Uchihas’ favorite katon jutsu.
There's no specific method of fighting based on Sharingan but it can complement certain jutsu, such as chidori which Kakashi needed Sharingan to avoid a counterattack while using it.

Quote:
The sharingan’s main weaknesses are that it can’t imitate jutsus that are based on other kekkei genkai and it can’t keep up with certain taijutsu attacks. Yet we haven’t seen any real Uchiha jutsu to solve these weaknesses, all we got was mangekyou sharingan and it’s hardly a solution since not every sharingan user can possess such a highly evolved ability.
Those aren't really weaknesses insomuch that all shinobi have these vulnerabilities. Fighting a speedster or bloodline user, a ninja will still be better off having Sharingan, but Sharingan won't solve all the problems they'll encounter fighting opponents like these. Sharingan's only really drawbacks are that it costs chakra to use, and causes eventual blindness (MS)


Quote:
But usually when you say a certain ability evolves into something else, it’s basically just an upgraded version of the original. I can understand why Itachi’s sharingan could evolve into tsukuyomi since sharingan can wield certain genjutsus. But amaterasu is a bit off for me. Where did that incredible fire power come from?
Uchiha clan are famous for using fire element right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Bee

If we're talking typical user here, it would have to go to the Uchiha because the typical Hyuuga hold their own clan members back for their own reasons. If we're talking about what would happen if that weren't so I'd give it to the Hyuuga who are more skilled and formidable until the Uchiha start throwing in the MS and EMS.
Despite the fact that only a handful of Uchiha have ever achieved MS in the clan's entire history
Spoiler for manga:
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2008-11-20 at 10:03.
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Old 2008-11-20, 11:41   Link #2134
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Spoiler for Big ass quote:
So it wasn't my imagination
Spoiler for manga:

Last edited by Hunter; 2008-11-20 at 23:55.
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Old 2008-11-20, 12:25   Link #2135
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Oh and the Gentle Fist does require contact if only a gentle one, hence the name.
Maybe, but grazing hits are still enough to seal chakra points, which is one of the many reasons why Gentle Fist style is so deadly.

I might also make the point that in a fight between Sharingan vs. Byakugan, if a Byakugan user can in fact manage to seal up enough chakra points, the Sharingan would be deactivated. Though that in itself doesn't necessarily mean victory, I still think in a close-range fight, Byakugan user holds the advantage. Despite the Sharingan's ability to predict attacks, being able to see and being able to dodge an attack are two different things. And it has to be dodging because you can't block Gentle Fist style without taking damage and getting chakra points sealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenshin_Uchiha View Post
So it wasn't my imagination

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Spoiler for manga:
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Last edited by Hunter; 2008-11-20 at 23:54.
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Old 2008-11-20, 13:21   Link #2136
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Last edited by Hunter; 2008-11-20 at 23:55.
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Old 2008-11-20, 15:33   Link #2137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
When biais comes so far there is nothing more to say and it's off topic anyway.
Nothing I wrote was bias. You need to get a grip. I know you're Mr mod and all but my opinion of what hinata may or may not be able to do if she overcame her shyness and actually applied herself is perfectly fine. She showed she was capable of lots of growth in the anime filler, which is fine to speak about here because THIS AINT A MANGA TOPIC. What I wrote had less to do with Sasuke and more to do with what I thought the girl might be capable of. After all this anime is all about so-called under-achievers being able to compete with so-called geniuses.

Or maybe it isn't and only you know about it because its found in the data book.
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Old 2008-11-20, 15:55   Link #2138
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Dude you live in a world of your own lol no offense.

What is stated in the data books is fact, and the way it is written the possibility of it being an ability you pass down is kind of farfetched. Maybe it is an item stored in another dimension, it's pure speculation, not to irrealistic though. No we don't know that every MS user has amaterasu, read hunters original post he said it to.

MS is an upgrade? yes it is an upgrade, what rules it has to follow? wathever rulles kishimoto wants. Why can't a more powerfull fire evolve from fire now that we are at it?

It is clear that they are items, yet where they are stored is unclear, again speculation though I mostly agree with you on that one.

No it isn't impossible, though it wasn't Itachi that stored it for sure, and it is still a big stretch.


Again anime fillers have no real relation with the storyline, maybe hinata has potential, but one more time it's just suposition.
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Old 2008-11-20, 18:07   Link #2139
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Last edited by james0246; 2008-11-20 at 18:28.
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Old 2008-11-21, 00:38   Link #2140
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Whoa! Info overload! I only meant to ask some questions about the supposed "inconsistencies" I noticed from the sharingan and I got this?

Amaterasu is this inextinguishable black fire that shoots out from one's eyes, it's kind of different from the Uchiha's katon jutsu (at least for me) although I do see the connection there. Katon jutsu is not exclusive to the Uchiha though, almost anyone who have fire element affinity can perform this. Sharingan has always reminded me of a psychic ability since it "sees through" almost everything and it has the power to wield powerful genjutsus which is really a kind of hypnosis.

Tsukuyomi made sense to me since its main power is to trap a person into his own personal hell to be tortured and eventually killed. It's a cruel power and it requires very little physical contact if not at all. So I guess you could say that tsukuyomi and the sharingan in general is not a physical ability but a mental one. Amaterasu, on the other hand, is like your average ninjutsu which is similar to wielding elements and these type of ninjutsus are usually done with hand seals. Amaterasu requires none of this, you simply stare and shoot. It's a power that is supposed to come from sharingan which is generally a mental ability and yet amaterasu's flames are physical and not some imagined fire. When you're hit with it, it really burns, your mind doesn't simply make you think that it does like tsukuyomi does.

Quote:
There's no specific method of fighting based on Sharingan but it can complement certain jutsu, such as chidori which Kakashi needed Sharingan to avoid a counterattack while using it.
That's just it, sharingan doesn't have complementing jutsus. The Uchiha didn't exactly develop sharingan to make it more formidable unlike the Hyuuga with their byakugan. But in fact they relied on it and its abilities too much. That's why people like Zabuza and Deidara used to demean sharingan because it's an ability that is inherited, you don't earn it through extensive training. It relies on its copying abilities quite heavily, meaning most sharingan users are simply just copycats, they don't have their own original jutsu. Of course this only applies to the average sharingan not MS.

Kakashi is different, he's not an Uchiha and he knows he can't always rely on the sharingan that's why he developed Chidori. I think he might be the only sharingan user who developed a jutsu to complement the sharingan.
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